Apologies to Billy Idol, but a recent article in the Washington Post about local weddings has me thinking in the abstract (I’m as far from the lavan as I have ever been) about wedding customs and how they change.
The article makes a number of interesting points. It starts by describing how non-desis have discovered the business opportunities involved in brown weddings, such as Sue Harmon who has two white mares specially reserved for baraat duty, or Foxchase Manor which has learned how to handle the havan without setting off all the fire alarms:
“The normal instinct is to blow out the fire when you’re done … But that creates this huge puff of smoke that’s actually much bigger than when the fire is lit. So the key is to keep the fire in a portable container, and then when you’re done, you carry it outside and close all the doors before blowing it out.” With an average of 80 South Asian weddings a year, the staff has had ample opportunity to perfect the technique, he added. [Link]
Still more interesting to me was a story of how other “ethnic” couples have adapted some aspects of desi ceremonies:
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Why wear white? |
South Asian vendors, meanwhile, are increasingly hearing from non-South Asian couples who want to borrow their customs. Caucasian couples who came across photos of Sood’s creations … have asked her to decorate their weddings in the same shades of maroon and gold. She’s even draped a mandap — the wedding canopy — with kente cloth for an African couple… [Link]
But the bit that really caught my attention was about how ABDs are wanting to have hybrid wedding ceremonies that incorporate aspects of the white weddings they grew up watching on television:
Perhaps most radical, however, is the growing use of whites and ivories in the decorations. “In Indian culture, white signifies mourning,” she said. “It used to be such a taboo for weddings. But now so many brides are demanding it.”
Priti Loungani-Malhotra, 32, a dressmaker based in Arlington County, has even designed a white version of the classic Indian wedding gown, with a mermaid-shaped lengha, or skirt, that would do Vera Wang proud. [Link]
I always thought precisely those two aspects of western weddings – the procession down the isle and the white dress / black tux were boring and dull compared to the circumambulation of holy objects (at least in some desi weddings) and bright red wedding garments. I know I’m a guy, and the long walk down the isle brings attention to the bride, but I just never liked it. For one thing, I don’t like the parts of either culture that view a woman as something to be given from one man (the father) to another (the husband).
How many of you would (or did) seize control of your wedding from your parents and create a wedding ceremony that incorporated aspects of both cultures? Are you all more enamoured of white wedding customs than I am?
[An aside] Incidentally, the whole white wedding thing comes from Queen Victoria who changed white from a color of royal mourning (as amongst many desis) to the color of the virgin bride:
Queen Victoria was not the first royal bride to wear a white wedding gown, but the first of the modern era. White had been a traditional color of royal mourning, and although not often utilized as such, white was not considered a suitable choice for a royal wedding. Victoria’s choice popularized the white gown as no other had before her. [Link]
Amitabh, I think they are a good idea specially if : – You/she has a lot of money ( McCartney -Mills divorce,anyone?) – You / she have kids/assets from a previous marriage – You/she are not highly sentimental/idealistic and likely to be truly hurt by a discussion on pre-nups
This is my viewpoint now – of course when I got married so many years ago in the des we never thought about it – in any case neither of us had any money:-)
oh man, amitabh, i was waiting to use that on HMF in the near future!
i am a big proponent of pre-nups, for many reasons. i think it’s good to get a pre-nup because at the time you enter marriage, you are in the most amicable frame of mind you ever will be with your partner. if it gets to the point of divorce, chances are high that you will be less than objective about the whole situation. personally, since i am capable of making money, i wouldn’t want to take any money from the spouse if we end up splitting. plus, let’s face it – divorce happens. better to be somewhat braced for it.
touche. yes, perhaps myself and my social circle are not ‘normal.’
which could then be linked with Facebook, providing endless entertainment for SM sleuths.
definitely a great idea.
Yeah, immediately after Amitabh asked, I thought, “BRITNEY”.
Friendster is how I got ‘caught’
and jessica simpson – their financial positions, respectively, changed dramatically.
Pravin,
Maybe some things in life are not governed by statistics?
OK, So i am going back to desh to celebrate my parents fiftieth wedding anniversary in a few months. Its nice to be organizing something so important without any existing (at least to my knowledge) traditions to go by. Makes it a low-key creative endeavour for us siblings. I can see my mother in a brown sari with a hint of silver at the edges….or maybe a burgundy one with the faintest hint of gold…novemeber in goa should be nice dress up weather….
Re: Diamond engagement and wedding rings
You are aware that their popularity is a fairly recent phenomenon, aren’t you? While, historically, diamonds in rings were occasionally used in weddings, it wasn’t until De Beers mounted a very successful campaign in the ’30s and ’40s, that diamond rings began to be considered de rigueur for proposals.
Personally, I’ve never been a huge fan of the white dress & although all the women in my family did white for their Christian weddings (either the dress or a sari) & later changing into a red sari (the sado) for the reception, I opted for a champagne coloured dress that I got tailored out of a SARI from Little India in Toronto :o)
i sort of can’t really wear any necklaces or rings – they bother me after half an hour. in my community, we don’t really have to do the bindi, mangalsutra, or the sindoor, except at the wedding itself. i’m willing to bet that all that happened after the partition and sindhis (that’s us) probably borrowed the standard north indian markers of womanhood to look assimilated. honestly, i’d like to pull an indira gandhi on my wedding – apparently she wore no jewelry on her wedding, only ornaments made of flowers (as a tribute to gandhian austerity). personally, i really dislike gold jewelry, so it’d be awesome if i could pull of a greek nymph/radha hybrid with a sari and flowers. however, i dont think that sort of stuff really flies at desi weddings, where there is a big element of pleasing both sides and preserving the izzat of all involved. meanwhile, check out the bling-bling on dawood ibrahim’s daughter here. how many starving children in ________ could have been fed with that money? ah, well.
Sindhi culture (especially, as you alluded to, pre-Partition) is so fascinating. Just a total hybrid culture, yet coherent and distinct, and very much shaped by its unique history and geography. Anyway, don’t you think Sindhi women probably had their own markers of ‘womanhood’ prior to Partition? Which for all we know might have been even more cumbersome and old-school? I don’t know the answer, I’m just asking.
“What exactly do you mean by non-tradtional engagement rings? If you’re talking this, then you’re on point.”
HMF if I found a chick who’d go rightfully apeshit over a green latern ring I would pop the question in a split second!
That is exactly why I first thought of an engagement porsche (back in 2003!); “
And a Boxter does not count! (streetlegal Canepa 959s pref hahahaha)
I feel that in contrast many of the rituals in the “white wedding” have been mutilated by pop culture (which has made it into a mega event/party) and crass commercialization (such as De Beer’s famous, and sucessful ploy, to make expensive diamond rings a part of the ritual), which takes away a bit of the romance.
I agree with you that the “white wedding” bridal industry, in the USA at least, is completely out of control. (I’m also one of those anti-ring freaks, although I’m not sure I’d have the nerve to turn down a ring if someone had already gone out and bought it.) But I have also been to weddings with the same rituals, the same white dress/black tux, with a big party afterwards, where there was a genuine, heartfelt expression of love and a true sense of family/community.
So, at the risk of sounding nauseatingly cheesy, I have to conclude: the rituals don’t make the couple/marriage more meaningful. The couple makes the rituals meaningful. I am sure that is true no matter what cultural wedding traditions you’re talking about.
excellent point, Amitabh. I didn’t mean that the “original” Sindhi culture was less cumbersome and old school: I’ve no evidence whatsoever to make that claim. Hopefully, an extended question my hour with my Nani should throw some light as to what was up back in the day. I’ve only read Sindhi trade histories which focused on the men (from particular communities) going to off to Central Asia (silk route etc), and the women were really quite peripheral to that theme.
I think this sums it up well. It’s not that ak, et al., are not talking about a growing trend among women (re: the ring, etc.), I just think it’s different peer groups.
portmantaeu, I also really dislike gold, and it drives my mother up the wall.
ha ha!! I wore a lovely red sharara for my wedding…for full 5 hrs…doing the saat pheras getting up and sitting…when i changed and a sis-in-law took my oodhni for some ritual she was like this weighs more than you how in the hell did u manage to do all pheras and all.
also im a maharashtrian. we wear green, traditionally, which is a color of fertility. and i see so many people returning to the green nau-wari sari these days. but it would never look good on me so i just wore a silk sari in the morning, a sharara in the evening and a silk zardosi (the kind u see in those saas-bahu dramas) for my reception (which is 2-3 days after the wedding ceremony).
also, traditionally, we send a couple of sisters/other female relatives with the bride to stay with her for 3-4 days at her in-laws place. my aunt came with me and she was such a huge help. its such a thoughtful thing to do.
i agree with camille, but i do/did also agree with HMF – most women do want an engagement ring, and a substantial one at that. sometimes i’m not sure that the SM crowd is representative of anything in particular, which is actually a good thing. but i
camille and portmanteau, i don’t dislike gold, but i am very picky about what type of gold i wear. plus, i’ve noticed that some indian jewellers seem to be adding something to their gold to make it appear extra-yellow. i’m trying to amass a different sort of jewelery collection – more individual/artisan pieces, not ridiculously expensive, and more suitable for western wear. this all requires going against the deeply engrained notion that the only place worth buying jewelry is in india…
what are your thoughts about pre-nups? cringe
Naive + idealistic, I know, but eeeeeek.
Comment #’s 150 and 151- A lot of this stuff depends on what state you live in. Also, sometimes during a marriage, one person may sacrifice so the other can get ahead and this can lead to the uneven distribution of wealth in the dissolution of the marriage. Better to let the judge handle it. Or even better and less expensively, have the damned pre-nup so you don’t have to go round and round while they suck every last penny out of you.
Trust me on this
Get a pre-nupget a pre-nupGet a pre-nupGet a pre-nupGetaprenup
Oh,wait, did I mention, get a damned pre-nup?
😀
I don’t know how I’m such an anomaly, but I love my gold jewelry. There are a few pieces I’ll wear to work, even – to my female relatives chagrin, they’re the ‘nothing’ bits – not even pieces, just a tiny pendant or set of earrings. But I do love my big clunky pieces.
Abso-freakin’-lutely. And amen to everyone on here who talked about the unmanageable expense and effort of big fat weddings! I just married my partner of 9 years– after that long, we planned and executed our wedding in 4 weeks, just because we didn’t want it to take over our lives for any longer than that. We paid for it ourselves, and once our friends and families realized that was the plan, they kicked in and paid for food, etc as a wedding present. A justice of the peace did the ceremony in his living room, and afterward we partied. We had a very low-budget affair– I wore a $35 cotton sundress, he wore a thrift-store suit, we rented a coffee shop and had about 35 guests. We had a blast and I’ve never felt so loved.
We did have a ‘second wedding’ for our families in another part of the country– my dad organized and paid for it, and it was more traditional and very different. I’m glad we did what we did– we satisfied our families and had a wedding that meant something to us. Oh, and my engagement ring was a small amethyst that my partner (a student at the time) could afford– no debt.
It’s not for everyone– I know my partner’s family would have liked us to get married in a Catholic church– but I really do recommend doing what YOU want…
Oh– and on the cultural side of things– we’re white, and had an American ceremony, but served Indian food at the reception. It was a huge hit. 🙂 And our guests were from all over the world, so a lot of American traditions (like the bouquet and garter toss) were new to almost everyone. Hell of a good time.
Wow, how weird that y’all are discussing this now- my lil sis JUST got married last SAT in WI! She planned all w/ her (white) MIL, so it was pretty much her day (white dress & all). We didn’t grow up around many desis. She was never was into desi (we’re from BD) culture, parties, or anything, so it was fitting. It also depends on WHO one marries, IMHO!
How do you bring it up without killing things how do you bring it up without killing things how do you bring it up without killing things
Use what one?
If my system were in place, none of these three would even come into picture. Maybe some of the legal folk can chime in, but I think prenups are pretty consistent, maybe they have some variation, but most stipulate that neither party has any right to the other parties assets, in the case of divorce. What is the “poorer” persons objection to prenups usually, “What? you dont trust me?” if the “no rights to assets” was the default, and an agreement had to be entered in order to award monetary assets to the spouse, who would ask that ? Very few, if anyone. In any case, by asking that, the relationship would be very clear.
Amitabh,
Since you asked: Wait for the right moment – when you are seriously discussing some aspect of the future ( such as kids? finances?) and then express your wish to ensure that both you and your partner are protected in the future because life in uncertain etc. Its like life insurance – all of us hope that we never have to cash in a life insurance policy because of a loved one’s death – but it makes sense to buy one. There are plenty of subjects that are awkward to discuss but if this is so important to you , you will just have to bite the bullet and do it !
Amitabh
I dunno if you see a “pre-marital counselor” or some spiritual advisor, but they can steer it for you and then after the shock has worn off, when you’re alone you can broach the subject again.
It can also be brought up in the context of reading/watching news together on subject.
Amitabh
If this is important, go ahead and do it. But be aware that this question or answer can be a deal breaker. If I am not mistaken, there is another way -put all of ones assets before marriage into a trust. Check with a tax lawyer. Having been through this route before (unsucessfully!!), my preferred approach on this topic is to casually discuss it before meeting the parents of the other party. That way, limited damage to both parties.
If you do the pre-nup get one that deals with childcare as well – there was an article in nytimes recently. Messiest part of any divorce.
AK : you are a pioneer ( no marriage i mean). I pray that many women follow your path. Not sure how the welfare system works in USA for co-habiting couples but in Australia couples living together are considered married for all purposes including health insurance
Doesnt the kente mandap make it a kind of Billy Idol remix and its a nice day for a blackbrown wedding
as one of the wise men (from Sopranos) once said, “Boxster is a Porsche with panties on”.
I just attended a beautiful Jewish-Hindu wedding. The person who has been telling our children Hindu stories for the past 30 years got himself registered as a Minister to perform this wedding. It was so nice to see the Rabbi and our Hindu Uncle stand shoulder-to-shoulder and have the couple perform the vows! They even had the saat pheras around a bowl of candles as agni as the PSU Stadium would not allow a real havan! The Jewish had their huppa/mandap. This girl(Jewish from LI) had done such a wonderful job of incorporating the best of both the worlds. Her cake was white with icing that looked like mehendi. She wore white and had flowers in all the rainbow colors. My friend wore a red saree as mother of the groom then changed into a salwar for Punjabi dancing. The wedding started at sundown, 9:15pm, which was perfect for the North Indian wedding. As a TamBram, weddings in the night are something I have never seen 🙂 5AM weddings yes. but 9pm nope.
ps:They were in NYT July 8 🙂
I agree. Personally, I think pre-nups are completely unromantic, but I know I want one whenever I get married. Our hope is that we find someone to love and to be married to forever, but should reality turn out to be the opposite, the likelihood is that a divorce won’t take place under 100% amiable circumstances (it’s rare). This means, that at the time of the divorce, emotions are going to be heightened, and each party is going to need to worry about its own interests, and if they have kids, the interests of those children. If you have things set out before, when you love each other and are perhaps in a better place to understand each other’s needs – the agreement is less likely to be harsh, and it saves some trouble later.
I would love to get a copy of the Massey pre-nup (a reference to Intolerable Cruelty).
How homogenous are prenups? And what do/cab they cover? Is it just finances/assets?
I’m not that big on diamonds and we’re currently looking for wedding bands. Last weekend, we went out and almost all of the women’s rings now seem to have diamonds everywhere. I had to schlump over to the small “unisex” ring section with my fiance and try to avoid the sneaking feeling that I was somehow buying a “man’s” ring. Meanwhile the “women’s” section with the load of ice was three times as big. Actually, everything about my wedding makes me feel I’m somehow not fitting the huge, wedding industry’s idea of how things should go. And everything’s so expensive, but I’d rather have a downpayment on a house. We’re only having 50-80 guests so that helps but I still feel like I’m being sucked in by both the American wedding ideal AND the ABD bollywood-inspired uber-Indian wedding thing. Must resist wasting money…
Luckily, I’ve never seen that here but my grown up cousin in India tells me about being forced to perform at her friends weddings by the bride – which means hours of rehearsal. It’s how you’re marked as a “bridesmaid”, it’s like the uggly dress and the matching shoes – a way you shame yourself in front of others to show your fealty to your friend.
Boy, girls just love to haze, don’t they.
Those things don’t have a prayer of seeing completion at a Punjabi wedding thank god. Some uncle (or me) will crash the performance and the mob (or me) soon follows.
HMF, initially, i think pre-nups were just about the finances. in this regard, the standard is what you said – no claim to any of the wealth personally amassed (i suppose in their own name) during the course of the marriage. sometimes, if the wealth is particularly unbalanced before marriage, the richer spouse might stipulate a fixed amount that the other will receive upon divorce (sometimes this is also an objection to a pre-nup – i.e. there is an objection to putting a ‘price’ or value on the poorer spouse). nowadays, pre-nups often operate as a marriage contract, to the benefit of both spouses, i think. couples may delineate how they will operate with regard to certain areas of their marriage – both during the marriage and upon divorce. as melbourne desi said, tax lawyers are also a reliable source for dealing with this, in terms of dealing with pre- and post-marriage assets. actually, this is part of the reason why i went the other way in tax law – dealing with corporations is way less stressful, i think, than dealing with family planning issues.
melbourne desi – many many thanks. australia is similar to europe in this regard, but the US has not adopted this way on a large scale (though some states and courts allow for this viewpoint, but for federal purposes, it is not accepted). sometimes i think i’m living in the wrong country. and sorry to hear about your almost-marriage – but i’m sure you learned a lot from that experience.
ankita – many women wear wedding bands – after all they do each give the other a ring at the wedding, no? generally (at least in the US) the wedding band for a woman will be very slim and nowadays complementary (i.e. same style) to the engagement ring, which is much bigger and pretty much dwarfs the band – probably why you don’t notice a woman’s wedding band at all.
AK, this is sort of why I asked the question. I wonder if many couples are turned off because it’s not exactly encouraging for a new couple, if so early in their union is a nitty-gritty legalese discussion about all the different scenarios regarding a potential divorce. Depending on how involved the process is, it could put a damper on things.
And you know most couples as they get married don’t even want to consider the remote possibility of divorce, otherwise they wouldn’t be so idiotic as to spend so much money/time/effort/energy/etc…
However, if there’s a simple off the shelf prenup that basically says we leave this how we started, and would require very less thought/discussion. (or even have that off she shelf agreement always apply)
I think it varies by state. That said, live in California! Solid cohabitation rules there 🙂 Maybe Mass is better, though, since they have civil unions, also.
Oh, and Amitabh, I think prenups are such a must. I think it’s a good idea to bring up during convos. on shared finances and planning, which (in my opinion) should happen pre-wedding/marriage/partnerships/commitment ceremony, anyway.
In my fair state, before you can even get a marriage license you have to go through a written tutorial on just that topic: divorce, plus you learn what happens to kids in divorce and how finances get messy if there isn’t an agreement berforehand.
Which fair state is this?
state of flux, a.k.a. Florida
Not exactly the heart of Jesusland, but Jesusland does have infamous ownership of the largest divorce centers in the US, with the largest being Arkansas, Alabama and Idaho.
We’re in the crotch region below the Bible belt and yes, divorce is prevalent here too.
Neither She nor I understand the significance of an expensive engagement ring. We always felt that it was an object to please your aunties, parents and society at large.
As far as the Desi Vs. Western ceremonies go, I find the Western ones to be refined because
-The focus is on the people who are getting married not the guests. -Things are short, unlike 1-3 days in the Desi version (At least in the South Indian one). -The shorter wedding has other advantages like how much time you “waste” taking care of your third cousins daughter in law’s parents and figuring out if their accommodation was fine and if they had filtered coffee with or without sugar. -You keep the wedding down to family and friends, people who mean something to you, instead of inviting half the city and some. -I understand what is going on in the western wedding (Although I am told that some Indian weddings have priests who explain things every step of the way, I am yet to attend one)
Incorporating different traditions into one seems to be a good balance when the bride and the groom come from different traditions (As long as it is executed well and the focus remains on the people who are getting married)
My apologies to Karthik for my crass comment that has unfortunately preceded your elegantly stated one ; )
Karthik
When I got married back in the des many ,many years ago I hada very traditional wedding attended mostly by family on both sides( but large families!!) .The one area that we ( the better half and I) insisted and were granted was to have a priest who explained all the Sanskrit shloks in Hindi /English that we both understand.The priest was wonderful and explained each and every step clearly. He even took the time to explain in detail a specific verse that I was not comfortable with ( something to do with obeying the lord and master unquestioningly !:-) )
A friend of mine was married in India (both are born there) and this was the complaint levied upon them by their parents:
“How could you be so selfish and think of only yourself when deciding who to invite to your marriage?”
HMF,
Do keep in mind that the whole social system in India is different. The reason your friends’ parents said what they did is probably because – as they had themselves attended so many marriages – they feel that it is incumbent upon them to return the hospitality by in turn inviting everyone who ever invited them. Beleive me, I have seen this happening time and again. Because whether you like the idea or not- in India it still is a matter of a marriage between families not just 2 people. I am not going to say whether this is right or wrong – it is what it is.
I know of only one of my friends who insisted on having a civil marriage in India ( no religious rites) with only her parents and the groom’s parents in attendance. Her parents agreed un-willingly and then went ahead and organized a big lunch party to invite all the folks they would have if she had had the traditional wedding.
While I understand this attitude, it’s not the point I was making. The tone in which the question was asked was out of ownership. The parents felt it was their ceremony to control and have reign over. Now, if their (my friends’ parents parents) parents treated them like chattel when planning their marriage, I’m very sorry for that. But it’s up to them to look at what was done to them and not perpetuate it to their children. That’s the seed of all positive social change.
Mind you, I don’t equate the attitude they had with the “marriage between families” aspect. The ‘marriage between families’ aspect is usually one of long term compatibility, ie. will the brides family upbringing be cohesive with the groom’s, and vice versa. No, this attitude is more of an assertion of “who’s in charge of the actual ceremony” And it’s got to go.
Really? its got to go ? Have you stopped to think that back in the des at least – its possible that many to be weds would rather leave it all to the parents?What about arranged marriages where the bride and groom may not have the luxury of having enough time with each other to decide every detail of the upcoming wedding? I am really hesitant when we start imposing ideas of what is right and wrong .If your friends felt so strongly about this they should have spoken up.