Apologies to Billy Idol, but a recent article in the Washington Post about local weddings has me thinking in the abstract (I’m as far from the lavan as I have ever been) about wedding customs and how they change.
The article makes a number of interesting points. It starts by describing how non-desis have discovered the business opportunities involved in brown weddings, such as Sue Harmon who has two white mares specially reserved for baraat duty, or Foxchase Manor which has learned how to handle the havan without setting off all the fire alarms:
“The normal instinct is to blow out the fire when you’re done … But that creates this huge puff of smoke that’s actually much bigger than when the fire is lit. So the key is to keep the fire in a portable container, and then when you’re done, you carry it outside and close all the doors before blowing it out.” With an average of 80 South Asian weddings a year, the staff has had ample opportunity to perfect the technique, he added. [Link]
Still more interesting to me was a story of how other “ethnic” couples have adapted some aspects of desi ceremonies:
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Why wear white? |
South Asian vendors, meanwhile, are increasingly hearing from non-South Asian couples who want to borrow their customs. Caucasian couples who came across photos of Sood’s creations … have asked her to decorate their weddings in the same shades of maroon and gold. She’s even draped a mandap — the wedding canopy — with kente cloth for an African couple… [Link]
But the bit that really caught my attention was about how ABDs are wanting to have hybrid wedding ceremonies that incorporate aspects of the white weddings they grew up watching on television:
Perhaps most radical, however, is the growing use of whites and ivories in the decorations. “In Indian culture, white signifies mourning,” she said. “It used to be such a taboo for weddings. But now so many brides are demanding it.”
Priti Loungani-Malhotra, 32, a dressmaker based in Arlington County, has even designed a white version of the classic Indian wedding gown, with a mermaid-shaped lengha, or skirt, that would do Vera Wang proud. [Link]
I always thought precisely those two aspects of western weddings – the procession down the isle and the white dress / black tux were boring and dull compared to the circumambulation of holy objects (at least in some desi weddings) and bright red wedding garments. I know I’m a guy, and the long walk down the isle brings attention to the bride, but I just never liked it. For one thing, I don’t like the parts of either culture that view a woman as something to be given from one man (the father) to another (the husband).
How many of you would (or did) seize control of your wedding from your parents and create a wedding ceremony that incorporated aspects of both cultures? Are you all more enamoured of white wedding customs than I am?
[An aside] Incidentally, the whole white wedding thing comes from Queen Victoria who changed white from a color of royal mourning (as amongst many desis) to the color of the virgin bride:
Queen Victoria was not the first royal bride to wear a white wedding gown, but the first of the modern era. White had been a traditional color of royal mourning, and although not often utilized as such, white was not considered a suitable choice for a royal wedding. Victoria’s choice popularized the white gown as no other had before her. [Link]
now that i think about it. a grl that looks like that can pull off pretty much anything. what to the clothes that make normal grls look good look like?
yes, you are right in that sense. i am just resigned to the fact that from the social sanction came the religious and legal ones, and that it is probably much harder to change the social viewpoint of relationships – thus a legal change would probably be more practical, and feasible. i suppose this might be my wishful thinking for the reverse process of legal to social sanction. i say this only because i, personally, don’t need the social sanction, but there are a lot of legal rights given to married people that are unfair to deny to others. i think the field should be evened. i mean, i would go so far as to say that (some) such rights shouldn’t be given to people as a result of marriage, but that clearly would never happen.
as for the relationship versions of festivus, i would need time to reflect on that. don’t you think we should be celebrating lifestyles involving promiscuous unprotected sex with multiple partners as joyfully as marriage?
First Happy Walentines day and now this? Vat are you talking about? Now I am going to file a public interest lawsuit and then I am going to contact the BJP, Shivsena, RSS,VHP, NDA, UPN, UNICEF,AT&T, and any other organizations to protest. Please stand still for photo so we can make effigy? hehehe…
one of my childhood friends was burned in effigy in india for doing an act as gandhi doing a striptease. doesnt take much to get burned in effigy.
Oh my a topic close to my heart at the moment. I’m getting married in 4 months and cannot tell you how much soul searching I’ve had to do for myself never mind the altering of my own set ideas that now seem useless.
I never dreamt of a “white wedding” per se but also never thought I’d end up with someone Indian so I always had an idea of some sort of hybridnessmess that would represent me or so I thought. I’ve put quite a few weddings together so I’ve had practice. I knew exactly in my head what my wedding would be like.
Who the hell knew the man of my dreams would not just speak the same language, eat the same food but have exactly the same customs and culture as me. Hello. Change of plans. Not only am I not having the big ass, gawdy, self absorbed, ice sculptures, $100K, horse riding, me, me, me, wedding…I’m going all the way to India to have the most traditional and simple Indian wedding my family has ever seen just so all the gramps and family that can’t afford to come can be part of it and I cannot tell you how much beyond words this simple fact thrills me to bits.
What will be American about my wedding however? I will have cake, because I like cake and dislike Indian sweets. No worries my guests get Indian sweets as well. I’m having bridesmaids, thought they aren’t bridesmaids and aren’t going to be walking down the aisle but all my cousins are wearing the same outfit/same color so the most superficial thing as “pictures” comes out fun. I’m doing a banquet style wedding, something not done in India, not having a receiving line (eek) and dancing at my reception and sangeet and anywhere I have the opportunity.
My biggest struggle has been identity issues and what culture and religion means to me. I’m not religious in fact I don’t follow religion and have functioned just fine that way as a party of 1. Well now I have him and his family to deal with and the whole concept of how we are going to be married, what is going to be said and what the vows will be causes a lot of stress in my head. I put my foot down and bargained with everyone to absolutely only have my mother be part of the kanyadaan (a practice that absolutely drives me crazy). I don’t need a man to validate my mother who is worth about 15 able bodied and minded men. People relented. The bargaining process of who gets what ritual and what is acceptable and what isn’t has been grueling to say the least but fruitful. A friend says think of it as two families that know nothing about eachother trying to throw a 4 day party.
Thru the process of wedding planning I’ve learnt a lot about my inlaws and how wonderful and reasonable my MIL really is and how much his family actually loves me. I’ve learnt a thing or two about fighting with the significant other and more importantly about my own ability to actually compromise (shudder). At last I’m also paying for my own wedding myself. I have no shame or embarrassment to say I don’t have money for a lot of frivilous things that everyone seems to want me to do because apparently weddings in India is some serious big business and people have some pretty lavish affairs.
YAY Jane! 🙂
I’m so happy for you. <3
Ankita you do what you want, forget the damn customs and Debeers funded propoganda. You like a band damnit you demand a band. I agree with you that the ring business is insane. I had a little birdie tell me about the stress my poor man was going thru over the ring and how much he was planning on spending and I had to step in and put an end to it and get a grip on the situation. We have a house to buy. Unless Wells Fargo is going to take my ring as down payment I’m not having any of that. I got him help from a jeweler friend and he surprised me with something I love and that was reasonable to him.
how much do these rings cost? is it like a 5 digit number? a 6 digit number? if it is, thats insane.
Puli,
For a nearly flawless & colorless (not visible to the eyes) ring think in terms of $5K – $8K (wholesale which is possible in NYC) per carat. It doubles for every carat you go up. Nevermind the setting, gold or platinum, stones or no stones on the side business that can add up.
“i say this only because i, personally, don’t need the social sanction, but there are a lot of legal rights given to married people that are unfair to deny to others. i think the field should be evened.”
I’m for taking marriage out of the legal world, and just calling them all ‘civil unions’
Because a part of the social aspect of marriage is to transmit the message to surrounding society of “I’m fcking this man/woman, so you don’t” In fact, I think that’s the real purpose of the ring/wedding band. It’s to tell others that you’re already being fcked by someone else. You mentioned couples that were committed but not married, so without marriage they were able to reach the “we only f*ck each other” agreement as well. At that point the marriage is just a piece of paper that gets you the legal rights.
JOAT, I think you’re going to enjoy doing the simpler, traditional wedding. My sister’s wedding last year was very traditional but not simple but we tried to follow all the vedic traditions. I think for myself and my parents, we had more fun at the actual ceremony than at any other part of the wedding. We had a young pandit who kept things lively and everyone got to enjoy.
My best friend’s ring cost so much, I told her I’d much rather have an engagement 911. Perhaps not typical, definitely mind-boggling. Many girls I know got rings which could have purchased small cars. Yaris/xA/Fit/Versas, but still!
Did he go, “when I say Om, you say shanti, om, [crowd: ] shanti, om, [crowd: ] shanti..”
Thanx ANNA. Thanx GS it’s going to be fun with you there 🙂 Speaking of pandit thats a big concern for me. I recently have been to a few weddings with this one particular pandit from Jersey officiating the ceremony. The man was all Bollywood and way too filmy. I hated him and his style and his ‘it’s all about me and what I say’ attitude. He talked so much BS and wasn’t even funny and I found him so irritating. I dread that. I’d completely respect a long religious ceremony just spare me the flashy pandit.
potential band name. right there.
Ain’t that the truth! So ubiquitous. I don’t mind it when your cousins are grown up, put in some decent rehearsal time, and do a mean bhangra or bollywood dance (or classical dance for that matter). In fact that’s enjoyable and it’s nice to show the Goras and other non-desis in attendance some aspects of our culture. I do mind when your little 4 and 5 year old cousins and assorted young nephews/nieces bore us with several dances in a row, all designed to show off how cute they are. And it’s not the kids’ fault…they’re often made to do it.
JOAT you’re awesome.
Dude I wrote a whole long ass article about this once and I swear my MIL’s friends still remember it to this day. I hate that stuff. Do it cause you are good and can put on a show. And any more than 3-4 dances is TOO MUCH.
my fmaily always makes me play the piano at any event or gathering. not sure whose benefit its for.
I wonder if world class musicians went through the same BS. “C’mon Zakir the whole family’s here, just play one more.”
You sortof answered my question, but I’ll ask it anyway, how many people would actually do this, or to take it even further, if presented a ring, then found out it cost exorbitant amounts, would say, “take it back” Because I find all this “yea right on girl, I think its total bs how much people pay for rings!” but when push comes to shove how many have the mindset to preempt (as above) or post-empt.
Also, I think any guy who complains that the feminists are “taking away” the right to give women expensive rings, should go and purchase some self-respect while they’re at it.
Delurking just to say that was awesome!
Also, I agree with what you said earlier, HMF:
I’m getting married next year and I find the cost and amount of time that goes into planning this huge event ridiculous. I would really like to go the way of a small party or just a family-and-close-friends-only ceremony, but my parents are NOT into that at all. No amount of reasoning has helped. They are totally into the “inviting your uncle’s wife’s cousin’s dog’s sitter’s grandma kind of thing. Thankfully, they don’t know too many people, so between their crazyness and my fiance’s family and friends, we’re looking at 300, maybe a bit more at the event. You could knock me over with a feather!! I don’t know if I’ve ever known that many people…
If I think about it for too long, I get soo enraged! Why all this drama just to show off? To me, that’s what it seems like, just showing off. Ooo look at me, I spent thousands of dollars on this elaborate crazy day, I’m soo cool. Ugh. The wedding has become all about other people, and so little about the bride and groom, in my opinion. (Except the bridezillas.) The part that gets me the most is the fact that everything is so freakin’ expensive! I mean, if you have the means and ways to afford to spend that much money/time, then by all means do so. But why does it cost so much to celebrate this day even if you’re trying not to spend? Ugh.
looks around Yes, that was my random rant.
Oh and I don’t mean to offend anyone. Like I said, if you have the means to do it big, or even just the gumption, go for it, it’s all you. It just really gets me that it’s practically impossible to find anything cheap these days… goes back to lurking
Rasputina parody of De Beers commercial/music: (stressful, dreadful tune)
It better shine It better cut I know it is expensive but
What other way Can you make four months Of your measly salary Last a lifetime?
I want it and I want it now. I’ll say it once I don’t care how You get it you can rob a store There just is nothing I want more
Than diamond jewelry for me And I’ll talk louder so you’ll see How very much this means to me Even some little stud earrings Gimme the goddamn diamond
I did. Maybe more women than you think have that mindset; they’re just not likely to announce it.
Firstly, congrats JOAT! 🙂
AMEN, sista!
To be honest, in general I don’t understand where the intense jewelry-lust comes from. I mean, I do know where it comes from, I just can’t get into it. It doesn’t seem normal/practical/responsible/moral to drop $10K+ for a piece of jewelry given how little it has to do with the actual ceremony and whatnot.
Three of my friends have done this, and it extends to jewelry as well (i.e. non engagement/wedding jewelry and gifts).
It would be funny, and sadly it wouldnt be shocking, if some parents feel the need to have “the talk” with their kids before the couple’s first night. It seems so magnified in Indian movies because of the whole no sex before marriage thing. I actually have an aunt who thinks her 30 something neice doesn’t have sex and may actually think she is still a virgin. I had to keep a straight face when she was telling me “i do not think our girls do that kind of stuff, do they?” And this aunt is a doctor who has been on the West Coast since the 70s. And what is the whole deal with milk in Indian movies and those “first night” scenes. Do people in India actually have a cup of milk placed bedside, especially warm milk. Ehhh.
Congratulations JOAT. Days of champagne and Paithanis.
I pretty much told my mom and my MIL that I would disown them if they bought me any real jewelry. What a waste. You get so much beautiful stuff that is artificial these days. Instead of 1 big expensive thing I rather get 5 sets for a fraction of that price. I find the whole real Indian jewelry craze misplaced. I don’t get it. I think in olden times jewelry was like investment so I can understand but I get excited by houses and cars not by real jewelry. It’s nice, you admire it but I like my stuff to match my clothes and same ole set over and over can be boring. And my goodness I just recently saw how much a friend bought her kundan and gold set for her wedding I nearly died. It was nearly 10 mortgage payments!!
My friend, up until a few years ago my mother who is a surgeon (though from India/middle east) thought gay men were actually hermaphrodites and there was actually something abnormal about their anatomy and referred to them having sex as “sodomy” and thought at best it was a ‘bad passing influence from someone promiscious’!!! Yeah I had to have that talk with her. It was funny and painful all at once. I could have charged for an audience.
Thanx Camille, Shodan.
Pravin # 126, I assume your questions are being asked sincerely – No to the talk before the 1st night – No to the flower bedecked bed – No to the milk ( along with almonds was supposed to give the man “strength” to fulfil his ..er..marital duties!)
I am sure there are some who follow the above still but it isn’t as mandatory as portrayed in Hindi movies. Hindi cinema about as realistic a portrayal of modern India as Hollywood is of America.
Now that JOAT mentions it, maybe ANNA should start something on gay Indian weddings. What do they wear? Is there an Indian version of lavender? And I would assume most of the gay Indian unions would be mixed race due to the lack of numbers. And has there ever been an arranged gay wedding?
i think many women would, esp. because they would be quite aware of their bf’s financial situation. those who would be so insistent on having such an extravagant ring prob. would not be with a man who could not well afford it (i.e. it would be but a small dent in his salary). in fact, i have seen this logic at work – one of my best friends has been obsessed with her engagement ring for about three years now, and the one she finally decided on was about $12,000. when i mentioned the price, she said that he could afford it. it was a bit unsettling, since she comes from a very modest financial background, intends to remain in non-profit for most of her life, and her bf was then in law school, and three years later, still does not have a job; but what she meant was that his family can afford it, which they can. so she definitely considered the financials vis-a-vis the ring, and in this case, the more expensive ring was feasible.
Runa,#129, I did say only “some”. I am aware that many don’t bother.
I guess the first question is… whats she doing marrying a guy without a job? Is she supporting him? If so, send me a sample of her hair so I can clone her.
And I do appreciate the answer to my question with everyone’s anecdotes, however, words on a screen can only be as convincing as they are. Maybe I’ve seen too many women that tilt on the golddigger side, and even the sanest of woman has been programmed to want this ring, (thats what infact triggered this discussion), I dunno how likely would it be for a woman to preemptively stop the purchase, or postemptively insist on returning it (this is much more resolute than simply ‘considering the bf’s financial situation’)
What else would you have them do? This is an online community, words are all we have.
HMF, I feel positively toddler-like, next to your cynicism. Yowza.
HMF I think a lot more women do it than you can imagine. At the end of the day the debt will be shared by both and his financial situation will have to be dealt with by the women. Most women I know who are over 30 understand the hard work that goes into making large purchases nevermind to make money. We aren’t talking about 25 year olds living at home never having paid rent and having no concept of what the real world is or how much it costs. Though I do know couples who never discussed money or kids or other major issues before they got married and I find that so bizarre.
I’d have them do nothing, little lady, don’t get defensive. I was just saying it’s a drawback of the medium. The same goes for my words or anyone else’s. And I’ve stated my skepticism might be severly biased due to the people I’ve come by.
Greatest justification EVER for Sepia Destiny. 😉
HMF, wanting a ring and keeping it within your price range is completely different than the pre-emptive/post-emptive issue – only in one situation does a ring remain in the picture. i was talking about a situation of the former – because she believes in the concept of engagement rings, she considered the financial ability of her bf in choosing a suitable ring. it does not have to be a zero sum game. as for the latter issue, i would think most couples would have broached this subject before it even gets to that point. for instance, i would let my bf know well in advance about my view (i.e. the engagement-ring-as-a-moot-point) but if he insists, i would also make it clear that it should either not be a ring, or nt something hugely expensive. as to what the ring signifies, i do agree that it’s a sort of marking of one’s relationship status. so it’s half the time more for others than for the couple. it’s crazy how much people want that one ring to convey.
btw she does not support him – he still is financially dependent upon his parents, and to some extent, she enjoys their financial benevolence as well.
I think engagement 911 is a fabolous idea. I mean only girl can wear the ring but 911 the guy can use too. And taking it further, how cool would it be if the tradition was guy proposes with a ring and girl proposes with a porsche?
No, I wasn’t hinting that, just that the ring power for this once-in-a-lifetime milestone has a kind of numbing effect on most, that would erode this concept, it obviously hasn’t for you, but I don’t know that would be the case for all.
well, the judgement I make on this is more of an absolute scale. $12,000 for a ring is too much even if your a billionaire. It’s just plain stupid (in my book), but money allows people to be stupid. Howard Hughes used to eat peas grown from a specific pea growing area and never wear the same pair of socks twice and other stupid crap like that, but he could afford it.
like I said, any guy who ‘insists’ should look into getting some self respect.
so you know someone getting married to someone who’s not financially dependent.. do you know any normal people at all?
Not even sure what this means.
That is exactly why I first thought of an engagement porsche (back in 2003!); if you’re going to waste a ludicrous sum of money, then at least purchase something both people can enjoy. The only ring that I want has keys on it. 😀
Ah, long ago, it’s what some commenters suggested we tackle, after the News tab– a dating tab, so that all of you could get your mutinous freak on. 😉 It would be called…Sepia Destiny.
Hey I resemble that remark! I am a 25-yr-old who currently lives at home and have never paid rent. However, I would like to believe I have a very real concept of what the real world is like and how much it costs. I’m damn grateful for being able to live at home and saving (that’s right, I said saving) a crapload of money that I’ll be able to use in the next few years and beyond, for the wedding, for buying a house, and hell, eventually for my kid’s college and everythinh else involved. My fiance and I have definitely talked about all this, and continue to do so.
JOAT, age ain’t nothin’ but a number. 😉 (But I see what you’re saying, in that age does bring wisdom – hopefully – and experiences that teach you a lot.)
seriously? i think that’s a bit harsh. plus, how is it much, if any, different than my insisting on not having an engagement ring? plus, you underestimate my persuasive powers – i would be very surprised if i end up with a traditional ring.
why all the haterade? plus, the so-called normal people are not even ‘normal’, whatever that means. however, for your satisfaction, the fact that he does not have a job has delayed their engagement. but they’ve planned their lives around each other, so to some extent, the marriage is a mere formality for them.
perhaps you will realise that there are a lot more inhabitants of OppositeLand than you had thought, and one of them might catch your fancy at Sepia Destiny!
because you’re going against the social grain, and saving money, where as the former isn’t. To me, a man insisting on spending large amts of money on a ring is saying, “I dont trust you to like me for who I am in the longrun, unless I follow social norms and do this” Obviously if he offers and she accepts its a different story, but if she declines and he insists, there’s some mucho self respecto needed.
I didnt see it as such. But you do seem to have an example (whether it’s yourself, or someone you know)for every status quo principle in the book.
“…But you do seem to have an example… “
I meant counter-example
Excellent point. Any advice on how to bring up the ‘prenuptual agreement’ discussion? And in general, ladies, what are your thoughts about pre-nups?
cringe
Naive + idealistic, I know, but eeeeeek.
I know you didn’t ask me, but I’m going to answer. I think the conditions of pre-nups should be automatic, that is, no party has any rights to the other finances, if the union is dissolved. The prenup should be to state that upon dissolution a 50/50 split will happen.