A little over a month ago, I wrote a post about a Muslim youth who had cut the hair of a Sikh peer, during a fight in their high school bathroom. You may recall it– I asked you if this was a hate crime and many of you responded, some by saying “yes”, others “no”. The utility of hate crimes legislation was also debated; weren’t all violations worthy of condemnation? What if penalizing hate crimes really meant prosecuting thought crimes?
I thought of all of this, today. I was moderating a link on our news tab by clicking it, to make sure it worked. This takes less than a second, but sometimes, I linger for an extra moment on whatever news site you’ve submitted, especially if there’s another story which captures my attention (I’m powerless against the “most emailed” list).
“Survivor of Hate Crime Takes Own Life“, it said. Or something similar. I realized that David Ritcheson, 18, was dead, a year after he probably should have been. A comment from the post I referenced above came back to me:
I wouldn’t classify this as a crime… a little hair cut doesn’t hurt. He wasn’t sodomized for crying out loud. Plus, these were kids. Kids can be more sadistic than adults at times. Its actually somewhat normal for a pre-teen to be sadistic… part of the maturation process. This was peer pressure, not a hate crime. Whoever cut the Sikh fellow’s hair did to retain his status among the peer group. [Link]
Well, David was sodomized, for crying out loud. He wasn’t just sexually assaulted, he was brutalized. Stomped. Burned. Kicked. And as he lay on the ground, naked and dying, his attackers poured bleach on him. Why? He tried to kiss a 12-year old white girl, who was not related to either of his murderers.
Who was David?
David Ritcheson had been a running back on the Klein Collins High School football team. He was homecoming prince as a freshman and had a girlfriend. He “hung out with the good crowd,” he says, and had every reason to look forward to returning last fall.
But once classes resumed, Ritcheson was overwhelmed by the looks he got everywhere he went — in the halls, in the cafeteria, in classrooms.
The looks all said the same thing: You’re a victim, how do you deal with it? Everybody knew what had happened to him, and the attack, he says, “was just so degrading.”
In a case that drew national attention, Ritcheson, a Mexican-American, was severely assaulted last April 23 by two youths while partying in Spring. One of the attackers, a skinhead named David Tuck, yelled ethnic slurs and kicked a pipe up his rectum, severely damaging his internal organs and leaving Ritcheson in the hospital for three months and eight days — almost all of it in critical care. [Houston Chronicle]
Here are his own words, which were uttered at a hearing on H.R. 1592, The Local Law Enforcement Hate Crimes Prevention Act of 2007; he testified, in an effort to wrest some good from his pain.
I appear before you as a survivor of one of the most despicable, shocking, and heinous acts of hate violence this country has seen in decades. Nearly one year ago on April 22, 2006, I was viciously attacked by two individuals because of my heritage as a Mexican-American…a minor disagreement between me and the attackers turned into the pretext for what I believe was a premeditated hate crime. This was a moment that would change my life forever. After I was surprisingly sucker punched and knocked out, I was dragged into the back yard for an attack that would last for over an hour. Two individuals, one an admitted racist skinhead, attempted to carve a swastika on my chest. Today I still bear that scar on my chest like a scarlet letter. After they stripped me naked, I was burned with cigarettes and savagely kicked by this skinhead’s steel toed army boots. After burning me in the center of the forehead, the skinhead attacker was heard saying that now I looked like an Indian with the red dot on my forehead.
Moreover, the witnesses to the attack recalled the two attackers calling me a “wetback†and a ‘spic†as they continued to beat me as I lay unconscious.
Weeks later I recall waking up in the hospital with a myriad of emotions, including fear and uncertainty. Most of all, I felt inexplicable humiliation. Not only did I have to face my peers and my family, I had to face the fact that I had been targeted for violence in a brutal crime because of my ethnicity. This crime took place in middle-class America in the year 2006. The reality that hate is alive, strong, and thriving in the cities, towns, and cul-de-sacs of Suburbia, America was a surprise to me. America is the country I love and call home. However, the hate crime committed against me illustrates that we are still, in some aspects, a house divided. I know now that there are young people in this country who are suffering and confused, thirsting for guidance and in need of a moral compass. These are some of the many reasons I am here before you today asking that our government take the lead in deterring individuals like those who attacked me from committing unthinkable and violent crimes against others because of where they are from, the color of their skin, the God they worship, the person they love, or the way they look, talk or act.
I believe that education can have an important impact by teaching against hate and bigotry. In fact, I have encouraged my school and others to adopt the Anti-Defamation League’s No Place for Hate® program. If these crimes cannot be prevented, the federal government must have the authority to support state and local bias crime prosecutions. [Hearing on H.R. 1592]
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Whither hate crimes legislation? Two of you discussed it, on the “Rape of the Lock” thread.
Affirmative:
why are “hate crimes” punished harsher than other crimes? I owuld think the punishment should be the same thing for the same crime regardless? Any lawyers here that can explain that better?
There are different justifications for hate crimes. It terrorizes the group to which the victim belongs because the perpetrator targeted the victim because of his membership in that particular group. It has the component of additional malice beyond the ones already codified in law. It also comes handy in cases of religious discrimination, for example, in the absence of this law, yanking off a cap from a persons head would be punishable at the same level as yanking off a hijab from a Muslim womans head or a turban from a Sikh mans head. [link]
Negative:
…more fundamentally, hate crimes are thought crimes…ie, they give extra punishment due to a person’s ideas and beliefs. now the particular beliefs in question are repulisive so few complain, but if the govt is allowed to give extra punishment to racists, could they do the same for communists? how about feminists? first they came for the racists…slippery slope.
there are first ammedment issues here and while such laws may pass constitutional muster they certainly go against her spirit. this is not the american way. it’s orwells. [link]
Is it?
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More than anything, he didn’t want to stand out, to be identified as “that kid“, the one who was sodomized and attacked so brutally. He required 30 surgeries, all of which couldn’t put David back together again. He was an imperfect teenager, a football player, a former homecoming prince, a model in the school fashion show. The last thing he wanted to be was a spokesperson. But he stepped up, to address Congress:
despite the obvious bias motivation of the crime, it is very frustrating to me that neither the state of Texas nor the federal government was able to utilize hate crime laws on the books today in the prosecution of my attackers. I am upset that neither the Justice Department nor the FBI was able to assist or get involved in the investigation of my case because “the crime did not fit the existing hate crime laws.†Today I urge you to take the lead in this time of needed change and approve the “Local Law Enforcement Hate Crimes Prevention Act of 2007â€. I was fortunate to live in a town where local law enforcement authorities had the resources, the ability — and the will – to effectively investigate and prosecute the hate violence directed against me. But other bias crime victims may not live in such places. I ask you to provide authority for local law enforcement to work together with federal agencies when someone is senselessly attacked because of where they are from or because of who they are. Local prosecutors should be able to look to the federal government for support when these types of crimes are committed. Most importantly, these crimes should be called what they are and prosecuted for what they are, “hate crimesâ€! [Hearing on H.R. 1592]
David was straight, but he worked for justice, for all:
The Local Law Enforcement Hate Crimes Prevention Act of 2007, for which Ritcheson testified, would include protection for gay individuals in the statutes that now apply to acts of violence against individuals on the basis of race, religion color or national origin. The new act would augment local law enforcement with federal resources. The bill passed in the House in May and is being considered in the Senate.
This and other hate crime measures affirm the value of the lives of individuals who have been the targets of hate-filled crimes and affirm that the psychological dimensions of these crimes have a different impact on society as well as on the victims.
U.S. Rep. Sheila Jackson Lee, D-Houston, hopes to name the hate crimes bill “David’s Law.” An equally fitting legacy would be a brighter glimmer of recognition throughout the culture that the aftereffects can be as devastating as the trauma itself. [Houston Chronicle]
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Many rape survivors don’t dare come forward, because of their shame. That shame is magnified if you are a man who was assaulted. David was practically a child.
“it was just really hard to hold your head up, even to walk outside with everyone almost in the world knowing what happened.” That anguish may have contributed to his decision to leap Sunday from a cruise ship to his death in the Gulf of Mexico.
“I shouldn’t care what people think or say. It’s just the fact that everyone knows I’m the kid. It was bigger than Houston. It was bigger than Texas. It was bigger than America. Everybody in the world knew what had happened and everybody knew the details of it.”
In the end, it was bigger than he was; in the end, it meant his end, by suicide.
On Sunday, he was pronounced dead after being pulled aboard the Ecstasy, a cruise ship en route from Galveston to Cozumel, Mexico.
A spokesman for Carnival Cruise Lines said several witnesses saw Ritcheson jump from an upper deck of the ship Sunday morning. Officials aboard the Ecstasy notified the Coast Guard before recovering Ritcheson’s body. [ABC News]
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What motivates the perpetrators of such vile, naked hatred?
It was a level of rage and fury that could prompt his attackers to drag the victim, a 16-year-old Hispanic youth, out of a party for the trivial offense of trying to kiss a 12-year-old girl, to strip him and beat him into submission, using steel-toed boots. They made deep slashes into his chest, investigators said. Then they drove a sharpened plastic PVC pipe into his anus so deep that his internal organs were damaged. And as the heartless attackers carried out this savagery, they spewed racial slurs.
The suspects are both Anglo. Neighbors told the Houston Chronicle one of them, David Henry Tuck, 18, has swastikas painted on the fence at his home. On Martin Luther King Jr. Day, Tuck flew a swastika flag. Also under arrest is Keith Robert Turner, 17. Kids described both as “skinheads.”
The 16-year-old victim, David Ritcheson, is popular at his high school, played football and was once featured in a fashion layout in the school yearbook. But the intent of the attack, as has been seen in other such assaults, was to strip him of his personal identity and degrade him to an object that could be insulted and sodomized…history tells us it is far easier to target those who are different in appearance, in background and in language. And we know that racial slurs that stereotype people and deny individuality are but the first step to giving license for barbarity against a whole people, something that would never be countenanced against a person with a face. [Corpus Christi Caller]
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Thank you for the opportunity to tell my story. It has been a blessing to know that the most terrible day of my life may help put another human face on the campaign to enact a much needed law such as the “Local Law Enforcement Hate Crimes Prevention Act of 2007â€. I can assure you, from this day forward I will do what ever I can to help make our great county, the United States of America, a hate free place to live. [Hearing on H.R. 1592]
Oh, David. In your desire to emancipate yourself from your nightmare, you may have done just that, by inpsiring compassion and creating awareness. I just wish we hadn’t lost you, that you hadn’t lost you, in the process. May your memory be eternal, may you finally know peace.
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An UPDATE I wish I had never come across:
I didn’t think this story could get any worse, but it turns out that despite the three hours I spent researching/writing this post, what I gleaned was not the whole, sickening truth. Not even close. I am grateful to XicanoPwr at !Para Justicia y Libertad!, for publishing the rest of the vomit-inducing, soul-crushing story (via the 2007 Jan/Feb edition of Journal of the Texas District & County Attorneys Association, which changed David’s name because he was a minor– that’s why it is in parentheses below). WARNING- THIS IS EXTREMELY GRAPHIC:
Tuck and Turner began kicking, beating, and stomping (David), Tuck wearing black, steel-toe boots, one of which was emblazoned with a swastika. Yelling “Beaner!†and other racial epithets, Tuck inflicted most of the damage. After one especially vicious kick, Tuck shouted “White power!†and gave a Nazi salute. Unable to fight back or defend himself in any way, (David) just lay there and took it, mumbling and groaning occasionally. Undeterred, or more accurately encouraged by the lack of resistance, Tuck and Turner began stripping off (David)’s clothing.
“If you had any white in you, you would be helping me,†Tuck told Gus. He then pulled out a silver pocketknife. When Gus started to protest, Tuck only glared at him. “Don’t bitch out on me now,†he told the frightened Gus, and began slashing at (David)’s bare chest. He was making superficial wounds, almost as if he was trying to draw something. Detectives would later come to believe Tuck was attempting to carve a swastika.
Taking the cigarette, [Tuck] began touching the tip of it to (David)’s bare skin, burning him on the arms, legs, back, and buttocks. Turner lit up another cigarette and joined in. Finally, Turner put the cigarette out right between (David)’s eyes. Tuck chuckled, “Now he looks like a f***ing Hindu!â€
(David) could no longer speak because Tuck had stomped on his throat hard enough to break one of his tracheal rings. All he could manage was a weak, agonized moan. He lay there a few feet from the patio, naked and helpless. And now it was Turner who had an idea.
Walking over to the patio table where Gus was, Turner grabbed a pipe standing in the center of it. It was a white pipe made of PVC that served as the lower half of some long-forgotten umbrella. … The lower half abruptly tapered to a sinister, conical point. Turner carried it over to where (David) lay facedown on the ground.
Squatting beside him, Turner shoved the white pole between (David)’s buttocks and into his rectum, making sure that the sharp point was inside the anus. He then looked up at Tuck and, holding the pole with the blunt end angled upward, motioned with his head. Taking the invitation, Tuck viciously stomped on the blunt end of the pole with the bottom of his combat boot as hard as he could. (David) moaned sharply. Turner laughed. Tuck stomped the pole a second time even harder. Doctors later estimated that the pointed pipe went 8–10 inches inside (David)’s body, rupturing his bladder and colon in the process.
While Turner tossed (David)’s shoes over the fence and began burning his clothing in a barbecue grill, Tuck returned to a frightened Gus. “Do you have any bleach?†he demanded. “We’ve got to get rid of the evidence.†Gus shook his head no, but Tuck knew where the laundry room was and went inside to look for himself. He returned with a full bottle and a warning glare for Gus. “If you tell anyone about this, I’ll kill you,†he said, walking to the edge of the backyard where (David) lay, the pole still inside him. Turner joined him there.
Taking the cap off the bleach, Tuck poured the bottle into (David)’s face, eyes, and open mouth. He poured bleach all over (David)’s naked body, poured it down the pipe and into his traumatized abdomen as well. (Even seven months later at the trial, (David) still had visible areas of skin the bleach had burned off. The physicians who treated him did not think that bleach could account for the reaction they saw in (David)’s immune system. They believe other chemicals, perhaps something like acetone, were poured on and in him.)
I am weeping.
When I originally wrote this post, I remember thinking over and over again that I was so grateful that David had passed out and that he remembered none of this brutality. What is haunting is, some say that he was starting to recall what happened to him, and that would more than explain why he took his life, at least to me. I can’t fathom such evil, I can’t believe that it happened now, and here, and not during some other, primitive time, in some other, faraway place. But Hitler inspired these two monsters and they tried their best to emulate his despicable hatred towards “others”.
I don’t know if David was Catholic. I don’t know if it matters, it probably doesn’t. I am Christian. I’m not Catholic, I’m Orthodox, but I spent my life in Catholic schools where we were constantly told that suicide was a sin. Well, I believe two things now:
1) David lived through that hellish night so he could bear witness. Why else would he be spared the mercy of death, especially when there were so many things inflicted upon him, which might cause it?
2) Unlike what those somber nuns repeated ad infinitum, this can’t be a sin, this wholly understandable desire to escape such all-encompassing pain. Even Christ himself wasn’t tortured like this, before his crucifixion. That’s sick. It is sick when I think that some way of dying/being murdered is WORSE than being nailed to a cross.
You may disagree or scoff at what I just typed, but even if you are an atheist, an agnostic or whatever else, I know you share my horror at what this poor child was subjected to at the hands of two heartless, depraved demons.
I just can’t stop crying, or shaking. My heart hurts. What is wrong with us? How could this happen?
*A case in point
LK1: i agree that this incident is much more brutal, but that does not make it more obvious a hate crime. in fact, the cutting of a sikh’s hair could be argued as more directly related to hate/bigotry than sodomy, since for a sikh the cutting of his hair is equivalent to someone cutting off our hand, and presumably the perpetrator knew this.
Identification with one’s ethnic/religious/political/geographical/whatever group is just an extension of ego. Kill ego, all the other ego identifications and subsequent “othering” will also vanish. The lack of this knowledge is what causes all suffering in this known world.
Justice is justice only if its based on some kind of common denominator. The common denominator should involve some kind of personal injury that has a disturbing impact on society. Keep in mind that a trial is not just about seeking reprieve for a victim; you are also asking this question of does the defendant pose a threat to society? That defendant has rights too (otherwise just hang him, why put him on trial at all?). Now, applying my logic to the real-world: can society handle a skin-head who brutally sodomizes someone’s rectum? No, of course not. Can society handle a young chap who one day, on the basis of a prank, yanks off the scarf off a Muslim girl? Yes.
This is horrible! Whereas racism of all forms must be condemned, I agree with Rahul that every society has its share of knuckleheads.
what is the best example of giving extra punishment for intent that most parallels the logic of hate crimes?
Murder in the first degree, second degree, involuntary manslaughter are governed by intent/state of mind to a large extent.
Doesn’t parallel hate crimes, AMfD. First degree murder is intentional killing with premeditation. 2nd degree w/o premed. so the fact that the criminal thought or planned the murder in advance gives him extra punishment over those who did it spontaneously. but this is different from punishing the actual content of the thought. hate crimes in this respect are unique and almost orwellian.
manslaughter is punished less because there is no intent to kill. this is very different from punishing a person less because they had no bigotry, which is more like lowering the punishment because someone is a christian.
Hypothetical…in this war on terror, if we give extra punishment for someone who commits a crime in the name of allah, would this be constitutional? would it violate the spirit of our creed?
Hypothetical…in this war on terror, if we give extra punishment for someone who commits a crime in the name of allah, would this be constitutional? would it violate the spirit of our creed?
Incidentally, you have stumbled on to a perfect example of a crime where ‘motive’, here to terrorize, leads to additional/differential punishment and mirrors the logic of hate crime.
Terrorist attacks now carry different punishments then just pure murder, as the intent to terrorize as compared to the intent to plain ol’ kill is considered an ‘additional motive’ warranting a different set of punishment.
Doesn’t parallel hate crimes, AMfD. First degree murder is intentional killing with premeditation. 2nd degree w/o premed. so the fact that the criminal thought or planned the murder in advance gives him extra punishment over those who did it spontaneously. but this is different from punishing the actual content of the thought. hate crimes in this respect are unique and almost orwellian.
My bad as I focussed on intent as per your question and failed to notice the second part of your question where you wanted a parallel for the logic of hate crime. Your question actually has no answer because there is an ‘intent’ element in every crime period. I am presuming what you were looking for was ‘motive’ which is different from ‘intent’.
Manju: What the hell are you doing being up so early today anyway?
Happy 4rth of July everybody!
It’s never too early for a true patriot to celebrate this countries birthday. Maybe you should stop emboldening the enemy. How about that?
rahul, for many, like you and me, acceptance, or even embracement, of the diversities of our society is the ideal. yet, for a large number of others, tolerance is an ideal. from that perspective, it is the ‘civil’ way of acting towards the encroachment on their society of people from diverse backgrounds. what we want from an ideal society – indeed, what constitutes an ideal society – is very subjective, particularly when you add diversity to the mix. furthermore, tolerance might be all a person like me, who believes in acceptance, can ask for in certain situations, such as civil unrest, racial riots etc. sometimes things are so bad that the ideal is replaced with the achievable.
but it is a problem when tolerance is at play – because unlike acceptance, there is no sense of equality towards others. and i could easily see how mere tolerance is far more likely to result in a hate crime vs. acceptance.
Manju: But you’re glossing over why spontaneous murder is punished less. Rational thought and intent go together; and spontaneous murder is supposedly caused by a lack of rational thought and intent.
The punishments in tort law (assault, invasion of privacy or property, fraud) are completely determined by degrees of intent. Even in criminal law, the concept of Mens Rea (guilty mind) is foundational. The difficulty of establishing degrees of intent results in categorizing: first degree, second degree and so on. An example that you were seeking would be assault with intent to rape: which is punished more than just assault.
manju, i assume this would be reviewed under strict scrutiny, since it is discriminatory/prejudiced on its face towards a ‘discreet and insular’ minority (carolene products, FN 4). honestly, though, it might stand up to even that high level of judicial review, depending on how narrowly tailored it is to a compelling government interest, since korematsu (re the japanese internment) is technically still good law. given the environment of today, it is hard to say with conviction that such a bill would not be passed, nor that the courts would not uphold it. so yes, it is very possible that such a law would be upheld as constitutional.
well, according to those ole terrorist-abetters (I kid) at HRW, the perpetrators will be at a higher risk for being raped–they are white, presumably not adepts of BJJ, nor very large/menacing. It is ironic that the likeliest agents of this violation will be white as well.
oh come now, why should we tar and feather these patriots who educate us on rates of leprosy (without context), the unjust incarceration of model minorities who enforce our immigration laws or sensible directions for US foreign policy.
and how could I leave out Dr. Savage, an eternal guardian in our eternal fight against illiberal clothing and furriners of all tribes.
David’s story has shown me that there are people who feel compassion, and unfortunately, there are those that do not. There are individuals that think it is okay to torture one another. And yes, evil does exist. Drugs are bad … especially Xanax – it is taking its toll, almost like a cancer eating away at our youth. If the results of drugs and alcohol are leading to terrible acts happening, what is the thrill all about? It is probably true that DR initially did some things that he should not have done while under the influence. I am guilty too – in my younger days I did some things that I should not have done too. The perps also did things they should not have done, and for that they will have to spend their life in prison. It killed me to learn of what those perps did to David in “my” neighborhood, and justice has been served in their penalty for their actions. They have been removed from society and the ability to enjoy the pleasures we are granted. Please do not question where God is while these things happen – he gives us the knowledge and will to do the things we do, and the wisdom to know whether our actions are right or wrong. I once questioned the Lord as to why a good, decent, person would have to suffer at the hands of an evil person, and the Lord said to me, “My child, I have to leave examples for people. They don’t listen to my word.” We are supposed to love one another; there is no room for hate. In this story of David and his acquaintances, let them all be examples as to what happens when people make the wrong choices in life. We have to live with the consequences, some end up in prison, some end up living in their own hell, and some can not bear to live with the consequences. As far as society goes, some will learn from their mistakes, and others will think it only happens to someone else … My heartfelt sympathy goes out to all that are affected by this tragic example. We are all far from perfect, aren’t we? Is it possible that the Lord saw that David could no longer cope and removed him from his pain? IMO, the way a death occurs is not as relevant as what happens after the death. I pray that he is in a better place, free from pain, embarrassment, and sadness. RIP David Ritcheson
Manju, don’t most laws try to essentially correct various attitudes? Laws against stealing attempt to curb an attitude which does not respect personal property, laws against snooping attempt to curb an attitude which does not respect privacy, etc.
The history of punitive relief around the world demonstrates this – public floggings, beheadings, executions, etc. Laws exist to punish and deter.
I think if you want to make an argument against government interference in general, then we’ll just have to disagree, but saying that hate crime laws are Orwellian and lead to a slippery slope is misleading.
For one, the law cannot cover every single group which claims disenfranchisement. It’s just not possible b/c of the seemingly infinite nature of group formation and malleability. This should not, however, determine that additional penalties for crimes committed b/c of a person’s ethnicity, religion, etc. are moot and unsubstantiated.
Laws do not exist in an apoliticized vacuum. Hate crime penalties exist b/c this country has a history of racism and intolerance, of legislating this racism and intolerance, of violence towards racial and ethnic minorities, etc. And racial politics has become a forefront issue – that mix of history and politics motivates certain legislation.
Ironically, many right-wingers oppose hate crime laws based on race, etc. except for laws which impose harsher penalties for commiting an act of violence against an American Christian while he/she is abroad.
I kind of find a lot of conflation and blurring happening when we talk about hate crimes. It would be Orwellian to punish someone for his/her thoughts, but not to punish someone for his/her intent and actions – which is usually held to a pretty high standard, by the way.
I mean, right now a bunch of Christian ministers are saying that the Hate Crimes Prevention Act of 2007 will have a “chilling” effect on their rights to preach about morals, when in reality it would do no such thing. You can’t be prosecuted for your speech. Yet it doesn’t stop these clergymen from saying (idiotic) things like:
Are you serious, or are you misinterpreting the concept of ego across at least three Indic religions for fun?
LK1, many would argue that hate violence does have a disturbing effect on society. I actually don’t want to get into this with you — you’ve already made your position abundantly clear on the thread re: the Sikh youth.
Aanchal and HyperTree, thanks for breaking it down. This is what I explain to folks about hate crimes legislation, and often they forget that part of my argument because they get blinded by my martyr-complex 😉 [I’m kidding, Manju].
I think the Christian ministers who are opposing the hate crimes act are mistaking it with Britain’s Race Relations Act (which does, in fact, criminalize speech that incites racial violence). But also, are you they so invested in their hatred (or their “right” to their vitriol) for members of the LGBTIQ community that they would block legislation that statistically is more likely to protect white folks and Christians from hate violence?
Nevermind, I’m getting depressed again. Happy 4th, all.
Amazing how this completely irrelevant article is posted when:
-Bombings in London were committed by an assortment of Muslims including an Indian national -There is a showdown between extremists and police at a mosque in Pakistan
Gazsi
what is the best example of giving extra punishment for intent that most parallels the logic of hate crimes?
Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but I think killing someone for financial gain is an intent-related special circumstance that can merit extra punishment.
World Net Daily, the link that you cite, is a home for loony right wing demagogues.
A friend of mine refers to it as “World Nut Daily.”
Ethnic tension in any non-homogeneous society is inevitable. IMO: it has more to do with economics than hate. Those who subscribe to extremist causes are societies outcasts and rejects. However, educated people are also capable of so-called “racism.” In this case, its more subtle, such as the tendency towards segregated housing and schooling, such as we find in America. So basically, this whole “hate” crime label becomes ambiguous at some point; convicting someone on the basis of sheer motivation ignores the root cause. Over-blown liberalism – this is why America has the highest incarceration rate in the world. The liberals would rather build more prisons and be PC than find constructive solutions.
right, because we all know that the conservatives are not trying to build more prisons…
Every violent act involves some kind of anger/frustration. The “hate” label is superfluous, purely a product of the PC culture. If the Sikh boy had lived in India, he wouldn’t even have bothered to take his case to court (he would have been laughed out of court). Another reason why I find it amusing that his parents went into hysterics.
Gazsi,
Don’t you think that hatred and bigotry that a child might cultivate might lead him or her to be the kind of freak who commits atrocious acts like bombing innocents etc? Would you find this article irrelevant if you were to find out that the people recently detained in the London and Glasgow terror attacks might have been fiends even as teenagers?
I suppose I am trying to understand why you feel that this article is irrelevant?
Shame on you, for dismissing this death, this tragedy as “irrelevant”. The post IS relevant, perhaps even more so on a day when we celebrate freedom. The number of comments alone prove that this story deserved to be told.
If you are so concerned with what SM covers, then one would assume you are a regular reader; if you were a regular reader, you would recall this post which warned you that this is summer and we are taking a break.
The entire point of that post was to explain to our readers that we will write the occasional story, IF we can. We used to publish several posts a day, now there might be just one daily. How about understanding that, instead of criticizing us?
Manju, MOST laws are about intent. “Attempted manslaughter” is still about the attempt, and thus the intent, to kill. It is punished less severely than “regular” manslaughter. And attempted manslaughter that results in no injury to the victim IS STILL PUNISHED. In this case, it’s largely the intent that matters. Giving someone a bottle of water that contains arsenic is a crime, whether or not they drink it. Do you follow?
That’s not Orwellian, that’s justice. Crimes can be of intent, and intent is not unknowable. It might make you uncomfortable, but I think that’s because you’re getting kind of hung up on some weird definition of fairness.
And here we go. I knew it wouldn’t last. Some numbnuts troll wades in from the shallow end and the water turns yellow around him. Next he’ll wonder why everyone else is getting so worked up about it. Predictable as clockwork. Yeah, the suicide of a kid who was a victim of a horrible crime is irrelevant, because SM needs to focus on students barricading themselves in a mosque in Pakistan.
No, wait. SM needs to focus on something OTHER than Pakistan. Because SM is racist, and hates Pakistanis.
No, SM is actually biased against Indians. South Indians, especially.
No, wait, no. SM is actually against Hindus. Because Anna’s Christian, see.
No, wait. Anna’s a bitch. Because she wrote this piece.
Etc. Etc. Etc.
Seriously. Kill me now.
Where do these people come from? If you want news about a story go check BBC or something.
I am not speaking on behalf of SM, but as a blogger, I will not write about a story if I have nothing to add to it. I did read about both news articles and I personally did not want to cover it over at my blog because a) These are developing stories b) If you do post something that is developing, you need to have the time and the resources to update it and keep your readers informed. So buzz off.
And ANNA thanks for being so patient.
In the UK, a Muslim member of Parliament recently resigned due to death threats from a gang linked to a racially motivated murder. He had helped bring the culprits to justice some years ago. No good deed goes unpunished.
Manju’s concerns about hate-crime laws slipping down slippery slopes to become vaguely orwellian are not off-base though. Would hate crime legislation involve criminalizing verbal assault — should calling a desi a dothead, or calling a homosexual a faggot be punishable by law? Even “assaults” such as yanking a yarmulke or head scarf off — do we want these to be criminal instead of tort?
These are very hateful and are emotionally invasive, but criminalizing these seems (a) vaguely orwellian (b) sweeping the social problem under the rug anyway
what is the best example of giving extra punishment for intent that most parallels the logic of hate crimes?
In all the examples given, the extra punishment for intent are for intents that are inherently criminal: terrorism, rape, stealing, invasion of privacy (snooping), tealing again (financial gain), an manslaughter. But being a bigot is not inherently criminal. It’s more like being a communist, certainly wrong, but not defacto criminal. punishing someone for acting on a criminal thought is differernt from punishing a criminal act that has a taboo thought attached.
you mean: “…up so late tonight anyway”
Manju: that’s circular logic. You’re saying the other intents are “inherently criminal” but bigotry is not. This begs the question of why the other intents are inherently criminal: it is because they have criminal laws criminalizing actions based on those intents innit?
NO!
However, these things do need to be addressed from the root.
Just like the War on Drugs is a failure, similarly, enforcing these laws could also be a failure and what is called for is education and awareness starting from an early age – a shift in the consciousness of cultures.
Now you get prisons in America overflowing with drug dealers when if there was no demand to begin with, there would be no supply. So we need to address the buyers of drugs first. After knowing what damage they can do to their own body and minds if they use certain drugs and they still go out and buy them, well, survival of the fittest, no loss to society. That’s why I feel all drugs should be legalized. Let the info be available on them all and if after knowing coke can kill you, you still go out and buy it, well, your loss, not mine.
Similarly, from early childhood people need to be taught how to act respectful and loving to all sentient beings. This stems from detachment from ego and the recognition that we all come from the same source. People who have imbibed this wisdom from early on will be less likely to use disrespectful language with each other or to get involved in hate crimes.
Well, amen to that, although I don’t know that it’ll ever happen, Bodhisattva. Humans are just too ornery. And I mean…how hard would it be to kick everyone’s ass in a society like that, anyway? Pretty easy. And also pretty fun, too.
Until such a day as humanity turns into the total wusses you describe, we’ll probably continue on with having criminal justice codes and such.
So Manju, is it the notion of the intent not being criminal, although it’s expressed or instantiated somehow in conjunction with a crime, that’s bugging you about the whole hate crime thing?
intent to rape, for example, is about thinking of doing something that is inhernetly violent, ie criminal…an initiation of force against another.
Hypertree (#80):
Actually (y’all lawyerly types correct me if’n I’m wrong), in the American system of jurisprudence, yanking a yarmulke or scarf off someone’s head would be construed as assault, and therefore a criminal offense. Similarly, verbal assault can be a criminal offense, too. “Assault” implies lack of consent on behalf of the victim, and therefore is very broadly defined.
These measures are hardly Orwellian. I’d strongly disagree with that statement.
I’d also like to point out that being a Communist is not wrong, Manju. Just different from what you believe. Archaic, to be sure, and probably irrelevant, but hardly criminal, no matter what J. Edgar Hoover might have told you.
hate crime laws strike me as a legislation of morality, as oppossed to a legislation against the initiation of force.
I’m also worried about the often used ACLUish (i wrote that to make AMfD squirm) slipery slope, as is the case in europe with holocaust denial and the trial of Oriana Fallaci.
Hate crime laws are legislating morality. They’re also about the initiation of force, too.
Again, pretty much every system of jurisprudence the world over is rife with morality enforcement. This is why you shouldn’t:
-Chew gum in Singapore -Have sex in Saudi Arabia with anyone who’s not your spouse -Get a BJ in North Dakota -Go to a swimming pool if you’re a woman in Afghanistan. -Attempt to fondle a minor pretty much anywhere in the U.S. -Or shoot someone.
The law rarely seeks to redress societal systemic shortcomings, and frequently overextends itself in really intrusive ways. I find it bizarre that people object so vehemently when legislation passes that attempts to make amends or prevent those systemic societal wrongs, yet the thousand other slights and injuries to individual rights that still remain enshrined in legal codes the world over pass by unremarked.
It’s not a matter of being wusses, it’s a matter of culture. Are we cultured to be respectful or disresptectful. Those kids who beat up this young man probably did not have good family/community influence, or if they did, consciously cultivated a mood of rebellion within themselves. Rebellion, aggression, etc can be channelled though art, martial arts, music, dance so many creative outlets.
Generally speaking, parents who are grounded and well-balanced tend to culture their kids the same way.
Unfortunately TV and other media tends towards the violent and less refined characteristic in all of us — the lowest common denominator of human existence. Then that’s the responsiblity of parents also to monitor all that or to encourage their kids in other activities OUTDOORS.
Manju: there are two components to a crime: one is the action and the other is the state of mind during that action. Mens Rea (guilty mind) doctrine of justice demands that after an action, the state of the guilty mind during that action be used to determine punishment.
In your example above you reduce this pre-action state of mind to “about to do action” — this reduces Mens Rea to a tautology! But it is much more. The state of mind could be drug-doped, or sane and sober. It could also be bigoted malice. These have to be taken into consideration while determining the punishment.
It is not that bigoted malice is illegal per se. By Mens Rea, it is not irrelevant to punishment post-action either.
By hate-crime legislation, we are not criminalizing the thought of bigoted malice. We are merely encoding what Mens Rea under bigoted malice should entail.
Now who’s sounding Orwellian? Your idea of culture sounds like a total pain in the butt to me.
btw, the intent to rape example is more complicated — i.e. it is not criminalizing the intent to rape per se. It is actually criminalizing imminent rape. Intent and Mens Rea can only kick in post action.
two wrong do not make a right[1] etcetera.
[1] no pun intend[2]ed [2] no pun intend[2]ed
Squirming….
In all the examples given, the extra punishment for intent are for intents that are inherently criminal: terrorism, rape, stealing, invasion of privacy (snooping), tealing again (financial gain), an manslaughter
Hate crime is an add on punishment for actions which are already codified as criminal. So there has to be an underlying crime and then the punishment will be enhanced because of the hate crime component.
To clear up some misconceptions about LLECHPA (which has yet to pass the Senate) and how it actually affects hate crimes enforcement please visit the website set up by the Leadership Conference on Civil Rights at http://www.unitedagainsthate.net.
For example, the ministers noted in Aanchal’s comment ( #68) are just using what amounts to scare tactics about a bill that is supported by the overwhelming majority of law enforcement, civil rights groups, religious groups, and others.
The site also has discussions on what is and is not a hat crime and why they are particularly damaging.
Yet one more reason why I can’t tolerate hicks.
Didn’t this happen in a part of Houston? Let’s not exchange one type of intolerance for another, please.
?????
You are not seriously going to tell me that one form of intolerance is equivalent to the other?
My remark was aimed at people who deliberately avoid venturing outside of their small towns and learn about the world around them. In other words, it’s intolerance of chosen, deliberate attitudes. Way, way different from bigotry or homophobia.
The entire point of fighting racism, sexism, homophobia, classism, ableism, and all the rest, is that hating people on the basis of something they are born with and can not change is wrong.
But taking issue to people for things they choose to think and do ON PURPOSE? When those things cause them to harm others? How is that wrong?
Answer: not only isn’t it wrong, it’s completely in the right.
Once upon a time, we were taught to let people alone and let them be individuals. Perfectly fine. But now it’s been distorted into allowing people to be assholes. Guess what. Last time I checked, assholes don’t have legal protections. Or ethical protections. So, insulting them is fair game.
Actually, assholes do have the same legal protections as non-assholes. The law doesn’t distinguish, insofar as assholishness is concerned. But you can always write your Congressman and demand that he sponsor some legislation.