302 thoughts on ““But now, all my dreams are broken.””
I have to admit Ifob has a point. The only Indians that have been cool with me have been from the islands or born here in the states, I must say that video was sad.
His point was that those of us who were born here in the states are NOT cool with other minorities. Frankly, I think it speaks volumes about him, that he would compare African/Hispanic-Americans to untouchables. Racism is alive and well in America (hey, half the time, people think I’m a sista), but if you asked me to choose between being black in America vs. what I saw in that video, I’ll take America, any day.
Wow…an absolutely haunting mini-documentary. It really hit home to see some of them speaking Gujarati.
I have a question for some of you–I was born in the U.S. and my Mom is someone who gets incredibly defenisive whenever I mention anything bad about India…do any of you deal with this as well? I forwarded this link to my mother without watching it first, and the whole time it was on I kept thinking, “My mom is going to be upset when I send this. The first thing she’ll tell me is, “America has corruption too. Indian has only been a nation for 60+ years–it’s a very new government and because of that they will have problems that go back many years. You can’t expect things to change automatically. The country is also one of the poorest in the nations, they can only do so much. These documentaries only show the bad side of India…but never the good”.
How would you respond to this? She admits that the caste system is horrible, but she takes things personally whenever I say I’ve read or seen anything negative about India.
@iFob – “some YOUTUBE video funded and created by Missionary vultures aiming to convert dalits” .. “going all sentimental on a video clip created/funded by missionaries with an agenda!”
and if the ‘agenda’ is to help out people who have basically been crapped upon by the rest of the nation, what is your problem with missionaries ? At least they go out there, provide basic needs, and offer a way out of the mess … if religion rewarded dalits by labeling them ‘untouchables’, they have every right to take the help of missionaries to find a way out of their fate.
If the missionaries are happy to dedicate their lives helping these people, and the ‘untouchables’ are happy to leave hinduism and its caste system behind for the obvious benefits of some other religion, what the hell is YOUR problem with Missionaries?
Bahadur.
Thanks for clarifying and I apologize too for being so touchy …this has been a sore point for some time based on stuff happening in other threads 🙂
You are right – we are all complicit consciously or unconsciously
Pax!
39 iFOB- The hispanic cleaning lady and african american security guard have jobs, right?? This despite the fact the cleaning lady only knows a few words of English. I think this is a very different story from the dalits that we are discussing.
The Meenas are empowered Dalits. This article is not very sympathetic to them.
Sorry for joining the discussion so late, but a few thoughts on IFOB’s comment:
Being a “South Asian American” blog, why are ABDs worried about what is happening in India while not bothered about plight of African Americans and Hispanics dalits in USA?
The connection here is because they are South Asian Americans. If Indian’s were in trouble here in the USA, we would be discussing them here at SM. There are many instances of that.
Forget mingling with African Americans or Hispanics, how many of the “enlightened-because-born-in-USA” South Asians date African Americans or Hispanics? How many of you invite your friends to your home?
Very very off topic. And if you have to know, I have invited a lot of them over, I have “crashed” on their couch and we (South Asian’s) have even thrown parties for them. If you (your friends / acquaintances) do not do it, do not blame all of us. Let me take it a little further, One of my close friend’s brother (Indian Born Desi) married a Hispanic a couple of years ago. Now they are happily settled with a kid.
I hope those who shed tears on some YOUTUBE video funded and created by Missionary vultures aiming to convert dalits realize that while India had reservations and other welfare measures for dalits and lower castes since Independence, America did not even remove legalized discrimination of African Americans till 1960s.
I have to agree, India has been pretty fast at “officially” abolishing such acts. But this is not really a “pissing” contest. What is happening to them (dalits in India) is wrong, period.
India definitely has a long way to go but it is laughable to see ABDs sitting in the comforts of office in US (whose toilets are cleaned by Hispanic dalits and guarded by African American security guard working for minimum wage) going all sentimental on a video clip created/funded by missionaries with an agenda!
This was totally uncalled for. I assume that you are here in the United States. So what have you personally done besides finger pointing. If you are here, your toilets are cleaned by the same people and you are checked by the same guards you are talking about. Right? Have you done something to change their situation?
And yes, I want to smack that person who was laughing when he was talking about rape on the outside of his head. I want to see his reaction if one of his own got raped. His reaction was deplorable.
I find this argument interesting, having been to india only a few times I will admit there is a unspoken duel standard, my father makes a good living owning a motel/store in a bad neighborhood in clevland mostly used by prostitutes, drug dealers, and old middle class white men cheating on their wives. this hotel makes enough money that I have 3 brothers in college and a sister in medical school and I will most likely be in college next year. We live in a nice area in skaker heights, and the motel is run mostly by indians who are family friends just coming over from india.
They usually work there a few years and move on just in time for another distant cousin to move to the US and take his/her place behind the counter. because of the types of people the motel attracts if he ran the same business in india he would be lookeds down on, but this is not the case because he is viewed back in india as a place to go and get on your feet when moving to america. Many indians in clevland own liquer stores and motels, the same businesses exist in india but at home we are not as proud about it.
Is there anything that we can do to help? I saw someone mention microcredit. Is this a good way to help? What about scholarship funds or something? Would appreciate some tips about ways that we can help.
iFOB said:
Being a “south asian american” blog, why are ABDs worried about what is happenning in India while not bothered about plight of African Americans and Hispanics dalits in USA?
Who said we aren’t concerned about the poor in our country? However, in order to stay on topic, we must stay within the confines of news that deals with South Asia.
Forget mingling with African Americans or Hispanics, how many of the “enlightened-because-born-in-USA” South Asians date African Americans or Hispanics? How many of you invite your friends to your home?
raises hand All of the above. Two of my best friends are black and one is Latino, and two years ago I dated a Mexican.
During my first visit to US I was so disgusted with systematic discrimination of African Americans and Afr American beggars on the streets of San Francisco.
Discrimination in what way? Did this differ in anyway from what you saw on the streets of Mumbai? I hate it when people argue points by saying, “It’s not worth arguing because the same thing happens here”.
I hope those who shed tears on some YOUTUBE video funded and created by Missionary vultures aiming to convert dalits realize that while India had reservations and other welfare measures for dalits and lower castes since Independence, America did not even remove legalized discrimination of African Americans till 1960s.
Where in this article did it say America was the gold standard in the world? I’m currently reading “Roots” and if anything, this documentary proved to me that Dalits are a form of modern day slaves.
India definitely has a long way to go but it is laughable to see ABDs sitting in the comforts of office in US (whose toilets are cleaned by Hispanic dalits and guarded by African American security guard working for minimum wage) going all sentimental on a video clip created/funded by missionaries with an agenda!
Toilets are cleaned by Hispanic “dalits” are paid, are fully protected by sanitary measures and are never required to come in touch with human waste. The African American security guards are not only getting paid but they have health insurance and are treated with respect.
Don’t know how old you are, but at thirty-four I have given up on my mother. When I mentioned this video, her reaction was ‘well UP now has a Dalit chief minister and she has great influence, and ever since Ambedkar, things have been improving greatly’. Ambedkar. Bloody millenium ago. She always retorts with defensive and terribly simple-minded comments. I’ve now resolved to steer clear of political/religious topics (she hates Muslims too) with her.
There’s a ‘lost generation’ in India which sees everything in terms of black and white. A kind of post-traumatic reaction to various tectonic cultural and political shifts, perhaps?
Two of my best friends are black and one is Latino, and two years ago I dated a Mexican.
But how many of them clean toilets/mow lawns/panhandle? Huh? Huh? See, I told ya! Case closed.
I want to see his reaction if one of his own got raped. His reaction was deplorable.
I think this clip linked below somes up what rahul is trying to say.
the clip was ment to be funny but it echoes what many feel indians think, remember white america hold indians and asians up as the model minorities in america.
Although I brought up the issue of government dysfunction/complacency, I think there is a limit to what government agencies can do. The government can mandate payment for services in cash (rather than in meals), it can mandate non-segregated seating/services in schools, restaurants, etc. It can provide better protection and equipment for those who involved in sewage work, it can severely punish rapists and others who would publicly demean and exploit Dalits for their own ends.
What the government cannot do is legislate social behavior. The government can’t make a Brahmin or a Thevar befriend a Dalit, the government can’t make a Brahmin or a Thevar invite a Dalit home for a meal. Unfortunately, those are the sort of changes that will ultimately make a difference, because they reflect a change in the overall mindset…and until that happens, I can’t see any major changes in the plight of the Dalits.
India definitely has a long way to go but it is laughable to see ABDs sitting in the comforts of office in US (whose toilets are cleaned by Hispanic dalits and guarded by African American security guard working for minimum wage) going all sentimental on a video clip created/funded by missionaries with an agenda!
While everyone can have a defensive reaction to your comment and tell you how many non desi non white friends they have; I find a deep sense of offense in it. Are you telling me that you consider Hispanics and African Americans dalits? Do you personally know any dalits and their plight in India? Hispanics and AA in the US have something called opportunity. They can uplift themselves out of their situations if they worked hard. The history of this country is based on people who came here with nothing and made something of themselves. Do Dalits have this opportunity?
What I find disturbing about your comment is that you immediately equated blue collar work to Dalits because in your mind that kind of work is done by Dalits. Makes me wonder if you were dropped on your head as a child.
This thread got me thinking-what if we here at the SM community could unify against a cause? We have everything we need, right? We have got as good people power right here as any other group! Situations like the above always cause us to recoil in horror at the evil perpetuated to people who have done no harm to others. So, let us pull together and get behind some cause that we can agree to and do something!!!
CB said:
Shalu,
Don’t know how old you are, but at thirty-four I have given up on my mother. When I mentioned this video, her reaction was ‘well UP now has a Dalit chief minister and she has great influence, and ever since Ambedkar, things have been improving greatly’. Ambedkar. Bloody millenium ago. She always retorts with defensive and terribly simple-minded comments. I’ve now resolved to steer clear of political/religious topics (she hates Muslims too) with her.
I’m 32 so of your generation as well, and like you, I’ve taken to resigning just as you are when it comes to discussing topics such as this with my mother.
There’s a ‘lost generation’ in India which sees everything in terms of black and white. A kind of post-traumatic reaction to various tectonic cultural and political shifts, perhaps?
I think our parents see India in this Utopic light because the land they left behind (when they were in their early 20s) was one of childhood memories where things are usually black and white.
They have never fully accepted being an American..it’s always India first, America second–no matter that they’ve lived in the US for longer than they have in India.
There’s a ‘lost generation’ in India which sees everything in terms of black and white. A kind of post-traumatic reaction to various tectonic cultural and political shifts, perhaps?
this is quite the common case for immigrants – their picture of the native country remains as it was when they left, even if they return on a regular basis. they do not see the daily changes that are going on back home, and in many cases, the relatives back home change their way of thinking while those outside keep the decades-old cultural mindset.
shalu, it’s tough, because many parents subconsciously avoid reading about ‘unpleasant’ things. in fact, i probably read more desi news than my parents do. i would say : keep at it, and do so with facts. depending on how rational your mother is, she might come to accept some of these issues as being real, rather than fobbing them off as untruths. also, i assume you are not categorically anti-indian, so maybe she will see that you really are not biased and can see the good in india as well.
Forget mingling with African Americans or Hispanics, how many of the “enlightened-because-born-in-USA” South Asians date African Americans or Hispanics? How many of you invite your friends to your home?
this is an interesting point, because there are a number of ABDs who only socially associate with other ABDs/desis – i.e. desis are friends, all others are merely acquaintances. however, i do think the majority of ABDs do not differentiate regarding the race/ethnicity of their friends. and whatever else may be wrong with race relations here, one of the best things about the US is that its population is not homogeneous – which means that we have more chances to educate ourselves and become aware of other cultures. in this regard, i think we are quite lucky to experience (or have the potential to experience) this contact firsthand, rather than through media, which in some cases – e.g. india – only furthers stereoptypes or misperceptions of groups they might not have regular contact with.
What the government cannot do is legislate social behavior. The government can’t make a Brahmin or a Thevar befriend a Dalit, the government can’t make a Brahmin or a Thevar invite a Dalit home for a meal. Unfortunately, those are the sort of changes that will ultimately make a difference, because they reflect a change in the overall mindset
i agree that the social mindset is the key to change – but i don’t think it’s helping dalits and others that there is a separate law for hindus – this implicitly (and maybe explicitly – i’m not familiar with the details) allows people to carry on with such discriminatory behaviour. by supporting hindu scriptures as law, it allows hindus to get away with what might otherwise be defined as unlawful discriminatory conduct.
Some female ranted // His point was that those of us who were born here in the states are NOT cool with other minorities. Frankly, I think it speaks volumes about him, that he would compare African/Hispanic-Americans to untouchables. Racism is alive and well in America (hey, half the time, people think I’m a sista), but if you asked me to choose between being black in America vs. what I saw in that video, I’ll take America, any day.//end of rant
U cud be who you like. His point was that desis in Amreeka will be seen non discriminatory amongst peer groups not only when the dalit/caste problem back home is dealt with but they have to act cool around brother Doug as well.
Btw, those who are familiar with the Ranvir Sena – M-L conflict will be aware that those obviously one sided footages leave a bad taste in an otherwise beautifully made and heart breaking documentary.
ak wrote:
shalu, it’s tough, because many parents subconsciously avoid reading about ‘unpleasant’ things. in fact, i probably read more desi news than my parents do. i would say : keep at it, and do so with facts. depending on how rational your mother is, she might come to accept some of these issues as being real, rather than fobbing them off as untruths. also, i assume you are not categorically anti-indian, so maybe she will see that you really are not biased and can see the good in india as well.
That’s good advice. I’m certainly not at all anti-Indian and I like to pepper my discussions with her with positive and negative aspects of India–but a lot of times my mom will just go quiet rather than discuss things further.
She can be quite stubborn.
Not unlike her daughter. 😉
Some female ranted // His point was…any day.//end of rant
Nice. Couldn’t even extend the courtesy of differentiating between all these angry females, eh?
JOAT wrote:
Hispanics and AA in the US have something called opportunity. They can uplift themselves out of their situations if they worked hard. The history of this country is based on people who came here with nothing and made something of themselves. Do Dalits have this opportunity?
Well said.
Some of the analogies presented here boggle the mind. The question is not economic oppurtunities in the US for hispanics, but about social bias against certain sections of people in India, which to an extend renders equal oppurtunities enshrined in the constitution meaningless in the Indian scenario. For God’s sake, the system discriminates in favor of the dalits and lower castes in India, but that doesn’t change the social dynamics in rural India.
shalu,
the difference b/w you and your mother is that she takes it personally. not that she is simple minded. for you it is a bunch of backward third world customs far away. for her, there is a sense of belonging to india and therefore this is an implicit personal attack. same goes for most non-dalit fobs as well. and face it, most people do mean that every non-dalit is an active participant in the shame. you may even be working to fight it, but it again doesn’t matter.
it does not mean she thinks there is no problem, in fact, she probably wants to see it go away more than you do. what you see in her response is not ignorance, but a defense mechanism. she has probably been lectured to about this by anyone and everyone since she was born. but while you can stand aside, she cannot.
This a sad video, after 60 years of independence , this is not where they should be.
The sad thing is, I dont think any of these people will ever see any benefits of reservations. It will be children of already “creamy layer” dalits getting admissions and scholarships while these people keep getting screwed.
iFOB, this very well might or might not be created by a missionary and they may or may not have an agenda. But one thing is for sure and that is that we have failed these people and if we dont include them in the mainstream and take care of them, somebody else will throw them some peanuts and can alienate them from the religion and society, and the fault will be no ones but ours!
And I urge all the people who are moved by this to make some small donation (if you don’t already do) to some NGO working for them , it will be more meaningful support.
the difference b/w you and your mother is that she takes it personally.
This is very true. I think i holds true for americans as much as indians. for example, when i was in europe and people were complaining about america to me, it wasnt just an academmic discussion. it was emotional. visceral. i dont know why someone wouldnt feel the same way about india, no matter how long they have lived abroad.
not that she is simple minded.
i used that word because you said in your discussions, her arguments are simple minded. don’t think of my comment as some sort of attack on you or your mother, neither of whom i know. rather my point is more abt why you find so many “defenders” as abd’s put it.
Hispanics and AA in the US have something called opportunity. They can uplift themselves out of their situations if they worked hard.
I see the point you were going for, but this is a bit simplistic. I’m not trying to make a comparison of Indian Dalit vs black and latino, because I think it should be relative. Both of these groups have little to no mobility in an aggregate sense.
I see the point you were going for, but this is a bit simplistic. I’m not trying to make a comparison of Indian Dalit vs black and latino, because I think it should be relative. Both of these groups have little to no mobility in an aggregate sense.
im not sure of that. i think in the case of latinos there is plenty of mobility. its an issue of mobility taking time. i mean, in prior generations, irish were the primary immigrant group. they werent considered white. they were ocnsidered poor, thugish types. were discriminated against. they eventually moved up. i think the latinos are going through the same process. i cant back this up with data though. its just speculation.
blacks, im not really sure what the driving factors are behind poverty in the afr am community. could just be long entrenched institutional bias against them. but, i dont think that its at the same scale as with dalits in india. i mean, if a blk grl gets r*ped, its not just something that happens.
i agree that the social mindset is the key to change – but i don’t think it’s helping dalits and others that there is a separate law for hindus – this implicitly (and maybe explicitly – i’m not familiar with the details) allows people to carry on with such discriminatory behaviour. by supporting hindu scriptures as law, it allows hindus to get away with what might otherwise be defined as unlawful discriminatory conduct.
no you are not familiar with what is happening. the separate law has support not among hindus but among muslims and christians. there is no tacit government approval of any discrimination with this. and to be frank, most hindus haven’t seen the manu dharmashastra that the indian personal law is supposed to be based on. they don’t consult it and decide to discriminate.
and your statement seems to indicate that hindu scriptures are the problem—get over it. scriptures are opinions, not equivalent of the bible. most hindus already get it, they don’t have another concept. caste discrimination happens not because it is a core part of hinduism but because it is an entrenched social phenomenon. which is why christian dalits get treated no better. part of the reason it hasn’t gone away is because of reasoning like the above—you are just barking up the wrong tree instead of doing something constructive.
Civility: politeness, the act of showing regard for others.
But one thing is for sure and that is that we have failed these people and if we dont include them in the mainstream and take care of them
yes, failed miserably.
And I urge all the people who are moved by this to make some small donation (if you don’t already do) to some NGO working for them , it will be more meaningful support.
Yes, and some additional suggestions:
Next time you are back home, speak out when you see this happening. In all likelihood, (and I hope) you will not see something so extreme. But you will see smaller things, speak against it. Don’t lecture as if you are on a pedestal, speak against it. Your point is not to win an argument, it is a war of attrition.
And go (and encourage trips) to poorer parts of the city and villages. These things happen in self isolated communities more often than not. You may not see a change with your one trip, but regular contact will do wonders. Get involved with education of kids, and keep in touch with them. To really get these things out of the system, without the place degenerating into Gaza or West Bank, the change has to come from within.
sorry, scriptures was the wrong word – but you can see how socially-entrenched practices in hinduism can be seen by the common man to be taken as a religiously-sanctioned practice, esp. given the fact that most hindus do not have knowledge of hindu texts. i also specifically said that because people in my family – deeply religious but limited in their knowledge of the texts – have said that they feel that this is not really discrimination – it is merely how the hindu system works, and even the government has sanctioned it by allowing separate hindu law. so my point was not that there is a separate hindu law that sanctions it, it is that some people feel – however wrong they may be – that this so-called aspect of hinduism is, in fact, implicitly condoned. and this goes towards a social mindset towards dalits.
part of the reason it hasn’t gone away is because of reasoning like the above—you are just barking up the wrong tree instead of doing something constructive.
i don’t understand this – are you implying that i support this discrimination?
re your suggestion of visiting villages – this is a good idea. in contrast to JOAT, half of what i have seen of india has been in a village, and i grew up in the states. it often gives you a keener insight of societal discord and interaction in the vast majority of places in india. there, this social status is much more attached to the individual, and harder to break away from. still, things are changing, and largely due to education. girls and children of dalits and other groups are getting better education, and just in my family’s village, i have seen a good number of people who have moved onto college education and jobs in the city, if not abroad. and it has might a small dent in the mind-set of the villagers – now these people are known for their professional and financial success, which adds another element to their identity besides caste.
so my point was not that there is a separate hindu law that sanctions it, it is that some people feel – however wrong they may be – that this so-called aspect of hinduism is, in fact, implicitly condoned. and this goes towards a social mindset towards dalits.
My understanding is that the “separate Hindu law” applies only to certain situations, i.e. the contracting and dissolution of a Hindu marriage, or the distribution of property on death, etc. I don’t see any legal sanction, implicit or otherwise, for discrimination in the laws in India. On the contrary, I think the law is very clearly anti-discriminatory.
The problem is that the government is limited in its ability to regulate social behavior. The government can probably tell a tea stall owner that he has to serve Dalits in exactly the same way as everyone else, but the government can’t make the non-Dalit customers go to that same tea stall, and eventually, the tea stall owner has to choose between doing what is fair and legal, and doing what is going to keep him in business and help him feed his family. There is a limit to what the government can do to change this sort of social mindset.
you are just barking up the wrong tree instead of doing something constructive.
FYI – my family – and i, personally – have contributed substantial amounts of money to the school which my grandfather started in our village – and a substantial number of children in that school are from disenfranchised groups. meanwhile, i am helping my father start a trust of scholarships for lower-income children. so it’s quite presumptive of you to assume that i am not doing anything for the cause, when you know nothing about me. for all i know, you can be the champion of dalit causes on this blog, but be doing nothing constructive in real life. but unlike you, i don’t presume.
bytewords said:
shalu,
the difference b/w you and your mother is that she takes it personally. not that she is simple minded. for you it is a bunch of backward third world customs far away. for her, there is a sense of belonging to india and therefore this is an implicit personal attack. same goes for most non-dalit fobs as well. and face it, most people do mean that every non-dalit is an active participant in the shame. you may even be working to fight it, but it again doesn’t matter.
it does not mean she thinks there is no problem, in fact, she probably wants to see it go away more than you do. what you see in her response is not ignorance, but a defense mechanism. she has probably been lectured to about this by anyone and everyone since she was born. but while you can stand aside, she cannot.
Nicely said. Makes a lot of sense and certainly puts my mothers point of view in perspective.
With that in mind, should I not bring it up with her? How do you propose I approach the topic?
As someone else said, I can often rant about the US government all I want, but as soon as a Canadian starts to rant about “those ignorant Americans” I’m the first one up at bat.
mortalez#65, what was I trying to say? puzzled, rahul.
i don’t understand this – are you implying that i support this discrimination?
of course not. i think hema clarified what i wanted to. hindu personal law applies in very limited circumstance, mainly involving property distribution within undivided (joint) families. it is not the laws that are the problem. it is social, but again, the people you are dealing with in all probability will be reasonable in other matters—it is like force of “habit”. so an important aspect is to understand why. the very suggestion that the hindu law has something to do with it tells me that potentially you are not a “field” person. But I may be wrong.
i am not saying of course, that for instances as extreme as the video fall in this category. they are criminal, and should be dealt with in the firmest way possible.
With that in mind, should I not bring it up with her? How do you propose I approach the topic?
Dont flatter me. You know better :). I guess, focus on solutions/helping out?
Don’t lecture as if you are on a pedestal, speak against it.
I dont think I had any intentions of lecutring and there is no pedestal in sight around here, just my semi comfy chair. But I have a distinct feeling that I just got lectured myself :).
Dont know what ticked you off, but lets keep it to issue rather then getting personal.
but be doing nothing constructive in real life
well:
so it’s quite presumptive of you to assume that i am not doing anything for the cause
both wrong :).
But I have a distinct feeling that I just got lectured myself :).
You are right, I got carried away..
Runa don’t get me wrong I have just not met many Indians from India,Also I am in no way going to compare being black in America to the folks in the video because from what I saw they have it bad when that asshole was talking about raping Dalit women I saw he wife walk out like she new he was making an ass of himself.
both wrong :).
you missed the point – i have no way of knowing, so i do not presume either way. you, however, not knowing, went ahead and assumed. and nothing in my posts gave you anything upon which to base your assumption.
This is a discussion with so much potential. Why assume and presume unnecessarily when we could be reflecting, relating and rallying?
This is a discussion with so much potential. Why assume and presume unnecessarily when we could be reflecting, relating and rallying?
rallying? the 10yT sold off by like 15 bps. i agree that we could use a rally. hehehe…
rallying? the 10yT sold off by like 15 bps. i agree that we could use a rally. hehehe…
cute. 🙂
ANNA, sorry – no more comments re presumption! but it troubles me that not much has come out of this discussion besides exchanging of viewpoints. obviously. awareness leads indirectly to improvement (though we’re not the best target audience for that awareness), but more direct ways – time and money, for instance – lead to more tangible measures. SP mentioned one group – anybody else have ideas?
you missed the point – i have no way of knowing, so i do not presume either way. you, however, not knowing, went ahead and assumed. and nothing in my posts gave you anything upon which to base your assumption.
never mind, i was being unclear. i never thought you were not involved, but that your statement was completely off mark. and definitely not my intention to suggest that you support any discrimination as you thought in one of your comments above.
His point was that those of us who were born here in the states are NOT cool with other minorities. Frankly, I think it speaks volumes about him, that he would compare African/Hispanic-Americans to untouchables. Racism is alive and well in America (hey, half the time, people think I’m a sista), but if you asked me to choose between being black in America vs. what I saw in that video, I’ll take America, any day.
Wow…an absolutely haunting mini-documentary. It really hit home to see some of them speaking Gujarati.
I have a question for some of you–I was born in the U.S. and my Mom is someone who gets incredibly defenisive whenever I mention anything bad about India…do any of you deal with this as well? I forwarded this link to my mother without watching it first, and the whole time it was on I kept thinking, “My mom is going to be upset when I send this. The first thing she’ll tell me is, “America has corruption too. Indian has only been a nation for 60+ years–it’s a very new government and because of that they will have problems that go back many years. You can’t expect things to change automatically. The country is also one of the poorest in the nations, they can only do so much. These documentaries only show the bad side of India…but never the good”.
How would you respond to this? She admits that the caste system is horrible, but she takes things personally whenever I say I’ve read or seen anything negative about India.
@iFob – “some YOUTUBE video funded and created by Missionary vultures aiming to convert dalits” .. “going all sentimental on a video clip created/funded by missionaries with an agenda!”
and if the ‘agenda’ is to help out people who have basically been crapped upon by the rest of the nation, what is your problem with missionaries ? At least they go out there, provide basic needs, and offer a way out of the mess … if religion rewarded dalits by labeling them ‘untouchables’, they have every right to take the help of missionaries to find a way out of their fate.
If the missionaries are happy to dedicate their lives helping these people, and the ‘untouchables’ are happy to leave hinduism and its caste system behind for the obvious benefits of some other religion, what the hell is YOUR problem with Missionaries?
Bahadur. Thanks for clarifying and I apologize too for being so touchy …this has been a sore point for some time based on stuff happening in other threads 🙂
You are right – we are all complicit consciously or unconsciously Pax!
39 iFOB- The hispanic cleaning lady and african american security guard have jobs, right?? This despite the fact the cleaning lady only knows a few words of English. I think this is a very different story from the dalits that we are discussing.
The Meenas are empowered Dalits. This article is not very sympathetic to them.
Sorry for joining the discussion so late, but a few thoughts on IFOB’s comment:
The connection here is because they are South Asian Americans. If Indian’s were in trouble here in the USA, we would be discussing them here at SM. There are many instances of that.
What you are looking for is a Hispanic American / African American blog. The links should help.
Very very off topic. And if you have to know, I have invited a lot of them over, I have “crashed” on their couch and we (South Asian’s) have even thrown parties for them. If you (your friends / acquaintances) do not do it, do not blame all of us. Let me take it a little further, One of my close friend’s brother (Indian Born Desi) married a Hispanic a couple of years ago. Now they are happily settled with a kid.
I have to agree, India has been pretty fast at “officially” abolishing such acts. But this is not really a “pissing” contest. What is happening to them (dalits in India) is wrong, period.
This was totally uncalled for. I assume that you are here in the United States. So what have you personally done besides finger pointing. If you are here, your toilets are cleaned by the same people and you are checked by the same guards you are talking about. Right? Have you done something to change their situation?
And yes, I want to smack that person who was laughing when he was talking about rape on the outside of his head. I want to see his reaction if one of his own got raped. His reaction was deplorable.
I find this argument interesting, having been to india only a few times I will admit there is a unspoken duel standard, my father makes a good living owning a motel/store in a bad neighborhood in clevland mostly used by prostitutes, drug dealers, and old middle class white men cheating on their wives. this hotel makes enough money that I have 3 brothers in college and a sister in medical school and I will most likely be in college next year. We live in a nice area in skaker heights, and the motel is run mostly by indians who are family friends just coming over from india. They usually work there a few years and move on just in time for another distant cousin to move to the US and take his/her place behind the counter. because of the types of people the motel attracts if he ran the same business in india he would be lookeds down on, but this is not the case because he is viewed back in india as a place to go and get on your feet when moving to america. Many indians in clevland own liquer stores and motels, the same businesses exist in india but at home we are not as proud about it.
Is there anything that we can do to help? I saw someone mention microcredit. Is this a good way to help? What about scholarship funds or something? Would appreciate some tips about ways that we can help.
iFOB said:
Who said we aren’t concerned about the poor in our country? However, in order to stay on topic, we must stay within the confines of news that deals with South Asia.
raises hand All of the above. Two of my best friends are black and one is Latino, and two years ago I dated a Mexican.
Discrimination in what way? Did this differ in anyway from what you saw on the streets of Mumbai? I hate it when people argue points by saying, “It’s not worth arguing because the same thing happens here”.
Where in this article did it say America was the gold standard in the world? I’m currently reading “Roots” and if anything, this documentary proved to me that Dalits are a form of modern day slaves.
Toilets are cleaned by Hispanic “dalits” are paid, are fully protected by sanitary measures and are never required to come in touch with human waste. The African American security guards are not only getting paid but they have health insurance and are treated with respect.
http://www.manavsadhna.org
Shalu,
Don’t know how old you are, but at thirty-four I have given up on my mother. When I mentioned this video, her reaction was ‘well UP now has a Dalit chief minister and she has great influence, and ever since Ambedkar, things have been improving greatly’. Ambedkar. Bloody millenium ago. She always retorts with defensive and terribly simple-minded comments. I’ve now resolved to steer clear of political/religious topics (she hates Muslims too) with her.
There’s a ‘lost generation’ in India which sees everything in terms of black and white. A kind of post-traumatic reaction to various tectonic cultural and political shifts, perhaps?
But how many of them clean toilets/mow lawns/panhandle? Huh? Huh? See, I told ya! Case closed.
Read this to get an idea.
Speak for yourself!
I think this clip linked below somes up what rahul is trying to say. the clip was ment to be funny but it echoes what many feel indians think, remember white america hold indians and asians up as the model minorities in america.
http://www.whereistheoutrage.net/wordpress/2007/06/03/what-can-brown-do-for-you/
Although I brought up the issue of government dysfunction/complacency, I think there is a limit to what government agencies can do. The government can mandate payment for services in cash (rather than in meals), it can mandate non-segregated seating/services in schools, restaurants, etc. It can provide better protection and equipment for those who involved in sewage work, it can severely punish rapists and others who would publicly demean and exploit Dalits for their own ends.
What the government cannot do is legislate social behavior. The government can’t make a Brahmin or a Thevar befriend a Dalit, the government can’t make a Brahmin or a Thevar invite a Dalit home for a meal. Unfortunately, those are the sort of changes that will ultimately make a difference, because they reflect a change in the overall mindset…and until that happens, I can’t see any major changes in the plight of the Dalits.
While everyone can have a defensive reaction to your comment and tell you how many non desi non white friends they have; I find a deep sense of offense in it. Are you telling me that you consider Hispanics and African Americans dalits? Do you personally know any dalits and their plight in India? Hispanics and AA in the US have something called opportunity. They can uplift themselves out of their situations if they worked hard. The history of this country is based on people who came here with nothing and made something of themselves. Do Dalits have this opportunity?
What I find disturbing about your comment is that you immediately equated blue collar work to Dalits because in your mind that kind of work is done by Dalits. Makes me wonder if you were dropped on your head as a child.
This thread got me thinking-what if we here at the SM community could unify against a cause? We have everything we need, right? We have got as good people power right here as any other group! Situations like the above always cause us to recoil in horror at the evil perpetuated to people who have done no harm to others. So, let us pull together and get behind some cause that we can agree to and do something!!!
CB said:
I’m 32 so of your generation as well, and like you, I’ve taken to resigning just as you are when it comes to discussing topics such as this with my mother.
I think our parents see India in this Utopic light because the land they left behind (when they were in their early 20s) was one of childhood memories where things are usually black and white.
They have never fully accepted being an American..it’s always India first, America second–no matter that they’ve lived in the US for longer than they have in India.
this is quite the common case for immigrants – their picture of the native country remains as it was when they left, even if they return on a regular basis. they do not see the daily changes that are going on back home, and in many cases, the relatives back home change their way of thinking while those outside keep the decades-old cultural mindset.
shalu, it’s tough, because many parents subconsciously avoid reading about ‘unpleasant’ things. in fact, i probably read more desi news than my parents do. i would say : keep at it, and do so with facts. depending on how rational your mother is, she might come to accept some of these issues as being real, rather than fobbing them off as untruths. also, i assume you are not categorically anti-indian, so maybe she will see that you really are not biased and can see the good in india as well.
this is an interesting point, because there are a number of ABDs who only socially associate with other ABDs/desis – i.e. desis are friends, all others are merely acquaintances. however, i do think the majority of ABDs do not differentiate regarding the race/ethnicity of their friends. and whatever else may be wrong with race relations here, one of the best things about the US is that its population is not homogeneous – which means that we have more chances to educate ourselves and become aware of other cultures. in this regard, i think we are quite lucky to experience (or have the potential to experience) this contact firsthand, rather than through media, which in some cases – e.g. india – only furthers stereoptypes or misperceptions of groups they might not have regular contact with.
i agree that the social mindset is the key to change – but i don’t think it’s helping dalits and others that there is a separate law for hindus – this implicitly (and maybe explicitly – i’m not familiar with the details) allows people to carry on with such discriminatory behaviour. by supporting hindu scriptures as law, it allows hindus to get away with what might otherwise be defined as unlawful discriminatory conduct.
Some female ranted // His point was that those of us who were born here in the states are NOT cool with other minorities. Frankly, I think it speaks volumes about him, that he would compare African/Hispanic-Americans to untouchables. Racism is alive and well in America (hey, half the time, people think I’m a sista), but if you asked me to choose between being black in America vs. what I saw in that video, I’ll take America, any day.//end of rant
U cud be who you like. His point was that desis in Amreeka will be seen non discriminatory amongst peer groups not only when the dalit/caste problem back home is dealt with but they have to act cool around brother Doug as well.
Btw, those who are familiar with the Ranvir Sena – M-L conflict will be aware that those obviously one sided footages leave a bad taste in an otherwise beautifully made and heart breaking documentary.
ak wrote:
That’s good advice. I’m certainly not at all anti-Indian and I like to pepper my discussions with her with positive and negative aspects of India–but a lot of times my mom will just go quiet rather than discuss things further.
She can be quite stubborn.
Not unlike her daughter. 😉
Nice. Couldn’t even extend the courtesy of differentiating between all these angry females, eh?
JOAT wrote:
Well said.
Some of the analogies presented here boggle the mind. The question is not economic oppurtunities in the US for hispanics, but about social bias against certain sections of people in India, which to an extend renders equal oppurtunities enshrined in the constitution meaningless in the Indian scenario. For God’s sake, the system discriminates in favor of the dalits and lower castes in India, but that doesn’t change the social dynamics in rural India.
shalu,
the difference b/w you and your mother is that she takes it personally. not that she is simple minded. for you it is a bunch of backward third world customs far away. for her, there is a sense of belonging to india and therefore this is an implicit personal attack. same goes for most non-dalit fobs as well. and face it, most people do mean that every non-dalit is an active participant in the shame. you may even be working to fight it, but it again doesn’t matter.
it does not mean she thinks there is no problem, in fact, she probably wants to see it go away more than you do. what you see in her response is not ignorance, but a defense mechanism. she has probably been lectured to about this by anyone and everyone since she was born. but while you can stand aside, she cannot.
This a sad video, after 60 years of independence , this is not where they should be.
The sad thing is, I dont think any of these people will ever see any benefits of reservations. It will be children of already “creamy layer” dalits getting admissions and scholarships while these people keep getting screwed.
iFOB, this very well might or might not be created by a missionary and they may or may not have an agenda. But one thing is for sure and that is that we have failed these people and if we dont include them in the mainstream and take care of them, somebody else will throw them some peanuts and can alienate them from the religion and society, and the fault will be no ones but ours!
And I urge all the people who are moved by this to make some small donation (if you don’t already do) to some NGO working for them , it will be more meaningful support.
This is very true. I think i holds true for americans as much as indians. for example, when i was in europe and people were complaining about america to me, it wasnt just an academmic discussion. it was emotional. visceral. i dont know why someone wouldnt feel the same way about india, no matter how long they have lived abroad.
i used that word because you said in your discussions, her arguments are simple minded. don’t think of my comment as some sort of attack on you or your mother, neither of whom i know. rather my point is more abt why you find so many “defenders” as abd’s put it.
I see the point you were going for, but this is a bit simplistic. I’m not trying to make a comparison of Indian Dalit vs black and latino, because I think it should be relative. Both of these groups have little to no mobility in an aggregate sense.
im not sure of that. i think in the case of latinos there is plenty of mobility. its an issue of mobility taking time. i mean, in prior generations, irish were the primary immigrant group. they werent considered white. they were ocnsidered poor, thugish types. were discriminated against. they eventually moved up. i think the latinos are going through the same process. i cant back this up with data though. its just speculation.
blacks, im not really sure what the driving factors are behind poverty in the afr am community. could just be long entrenched institutional bias against them. but, i dont think that its at the same scale as with dalits in india. i mean, if a blk grl gets r*ped, its not just something that happens.
no you are not familiar with what is happening. the separate law has support not among hindus but among muslims and christians. there is no tacit government approval of any discrimination with this. and to be frank, most hindus haven’t seen the manu dharmashastra that the indian personal law is supposed to be based on. they don’t consult it and decide to discriminate.
and your statement seems to indicate that hindu scriptures are the problem—get over it. scriptures are opinions, not equivalent of the bible. most hindus already get it, they don’t have another concept. caste discrimination happens not because it is a core part of hinduism but because it is an entrenched social phenomenon. which is why christian dalits get treated no better. part of the reason it hasn’t gone away is because of reasoning like the above—you are just barking up the wrong tree instead of doing something constructive.
Civility: politeness, the act of showing regard for others.
yes, failed miserably.
Yes, and some additional suggestions:
Next time you are back home, speak out when you see this happening. In all likelihood, (and I hope) you will not see something so extreme. But you will see smaller things, speak against it. Don’t lecture as if you are on a pedestal, speak against it. Your point is not to win an argument, it is a war of attrition. And go (and encourage trips) to poorer parts of the city and villages. These things happen in self isolated communities more often than not. You may not see a change with your one trip, but regular contact will do wonders. Get involved with education of kids, and keep in touch with them. To really get these things out of the system, without the place degenerating into Gaza or West Bank, the change has to come from within.
sorry, scriptures was the wrong word – but you can see how socially-entrenched practices in hinduism can be seen by the common man to be taken as a religiously-sanctioned practice, esp. given the fact that most hindus do not have knowledge of hindu texts. i also specifically said that because people in my family – deeply religious but limited in their knowledge of the texts – have said that they feel that this is not really discrimination – it is merely how the hindu system works, and even the government has sanctioned it by allowing separate hindu law. so my point was not that there is a separate hindu law that sanctions it, it is that some people feel – however wrong they may be – that this so-called aspect of hinduism is, in fact, implicitly condoned. and this goes towards a social mindset towards dalits.
i don’t understand this – are you implying that i support this discrimination?
re your suggestion of visiting villages – this is a good idea. in contrast to JOAT, half of what i have seen of india has been in a village, and i grew up in the states. it often gives you a keener insight of societal discord and interaction in the vast majority of places in india. there, this social status is much more attached to the individual, and harder to break away from. still, things are changing, and largely due to education. girls and children of dalits and other groups are getting better education, and just in my family’s village, i have seen a good number of people who have moved onto college education and jobs in the city, if not abroad. and it has might a small dent in the mind-set of the villagers – now these people are known for their professional and financial success, which adds another element to their identity besides caste.
so my point was not that there is a separate hindu law that sanctions it, it is that some people feel – however wrong they may be – that this so-called aspect of hinduism is, in fact, implicitly condoned. and this goes towards a social mindset towards dalits.
My understanding is that the “separate Hindu law” applies only to certain situations, i.e. the contracting and dissolution of a Hindu marriage, or the distribution of property on death, etc. I don’t see any legal sanction, implicit or otherwise, for discrimination in the laws in India. On the contrary, I think the law is very clearly anti-discriminatory.
The problem is that the government is limited in its ability to regulate social behavior. The government can probably tell a tea stall owner that he has to serve Dalits in exactly the same way as everyone else, but the government can’t make the non-Dalit customers go to that same tea stall, and eventually, the tea stall owner has to choose between doing what is fair and legal, and doing what is going to keep him in business and help him feed his family. There is a limit to what the government can do to change this sort of social mindset.
FYI – my family – and i, personally – have contributed substantial amounts of money to the school which my grandfather started in our village – and a substantial number of children in that school are from disenfranchised groups. meanwhile, i am helping my father start a trust of scholarships for lower-income children. so it’s quite presumptive of you to assume that i am not doing anything for the cause, when you know nothing about me. for all i know, you can be the champion of dalit causes on this blog, but be doing nothing constructive in real life. but unlike you, i don’t presume.
bytewords said:
Nicely said. Makes a lot of sense and certainly puts my mothers point of view in perspective.
With that in mind, should I not bring it up with her? How do you propose I approach the topic?
As someone else said, I can often rant about the US government all I want, but as soon as a Canadian starts to rant about “those ignorant Americans” I’m the first one up at bat.
mortalez#65, what was I trying to say? puzzled, rahul.
of course not. i think hema clarified what i wanted to. hindu personal law applies in very limited circumstance, mainly involving property distribution within undivided (joint) families. it is not the laws that are the problem. it is social, but again, the people you are dealing with in all probability will be reasonable in other matters—it is like force of “habit”. so an important aspect is to understand why. the very suggestion that the hindu law has something to do with it tells me that potentially you are not a “field” person. But I may be wrong.
i am not saying of course, that for instances as extreme as the video fall in this category. they are criminal, and should be dealt with in the firmest way possible.
Dont flatter me. You know better :). I guess, focus on solutions/helping out?
I dont think I had any intentions of lecutring and there is no pedestal in sight around here, just my semi comfy chair. But I have a distinct feeling that I just got lectured myself :). Dont know what ticked you off, but lets keep it to issue rather then getting personal.
well:
both wrong :).
You are right, I got carried away..
Runa don’t get me wrong I have just not met many Indians from India,Also I am in no way going to compare being black in America to the folks in the video because from what I saw they have it bad when that asshole was talking about raping Dalit women I saw he wife walk out like she new he was making an ass of himself.
you missed the point – i have no way of knowing, so i do not presume either way. you, however, not knowing, went ahead and assumed. and nothing in my posts gave you anything upon which to base your assumption.
This is a discussion with so much potential. Why assume and presume unnecessarily when we could be reflecting, relating and rallying?
rallying? the 10yT sold off by like 15 bps. i agree that we could use a rally. hehehe…
cute. 🙂
ANNA, sorry – no more comments re presumption! but it troubles me that not much has come out of this discussion besides exchanging of viewpoints. obviously. awareness leads indirectly to improvement (though we’re not the best target audience for that awareness), but more direct ways – time and money, for instance – lead to more tangible measures. SP mentioned one group – anybody else have ideas?
never mind, i was being unclear. i never thought you were not involved, but that your statement was completely off mark. and definitely not my intention to suggest that you support any discrimination as you thought in one of your comments above.