302 thoughts on ““But now, all my dreams are broken.””
That was just heartrending. That girl at the end, I couldn’t bear to watch her face as she was talking. Thank you for sharing this.
Definitely touched a nerve, these words will stay with me forever.
“Ghannu dhuuk lage, phun su thai?”;
“Iloko kem aauu kare che?”;
“Si khabbar…”;
apologies to seasoned transliterators (the transliteratti par chance?), first time I’ve ever had to transliterate Gujarati
InshaAllah, as very fortunate people hopefully we can see past our simple differences and beyond the consumer-highway to find the amenable interventions that will make the difference. Personally, this the biggest question / tension that our niche generation faces.
I remember reading and learning about the caste system in Asian History when I was in highschool. I never gave it much thought, since where I was born (I’m not desi but I am asian) nothing as rabidly (for lack of a better word) heirarchical (pardon the spelling and possibly the grammatical error, at 11:45 p.m..). Seeing this video shows me how far removed I am from the world. So jaded. Seeing something like this breaks my heart, that little girl, she wanted to be a doctor or a nurse. I remember all my choices and all I can be was laid down at my feet and I was soo wishy washy about it and she could not fulfill her dreams because she was born a dalit.
Wow. I knew of the caste system, but I didn’t realize how bad it was to those unlucky enough to be born an untouchable. I hope their lives will improve.
What I don’t understand is why cant the government start mass producing sanitation gear for all sewage workers? Even freaking MExico has sewer uniforms and gas masks so the employees won’t get in touch with the crap they have to deal with.
As far as the guy who bragged about his caste people raping Dalit women when no one is looking, I hope he gets raped one day.
How completely bass ackwards. Not much of a surprise, though, when mythology, flying spaghetti monsters and the like inculcates itself in society.
Its too sad to see that .. I’ve posted this in the Anti-reservation forum at Orkut.
But i dont think reservations are going to remove the cobwebs from peoples minds in the
villages. If only everyone could be educated.
The most telling part of this video was at 7:45 when that loathsome landlord gleefully boasted in front of a woman of his own family (probably his wife): “Earlier we used to rape a lot……now people look around carefully and if no one is there, suddenly seize the woman, roll with her and rape her”. Untouchability obviously doesn’t matter when it comes to rape.
That reminded me of what Amitabh recently wrote about the taller, fairer and handsomer (than him and his friend) chamar/untouchable, now married to an italian woman, whose beautiful mother was “taken advantage of” by jatt sudra landlords, according to his jatt sikh friend. Remarkably, he told that story like there was nothing disgusting or immoral about it!
What an eye-opening and saddening video. I’m just hopeful that the seeds of awareness and social change are being planted now, and that in the coming generations, the children of the children shown in the video will not have to face what their parents went through. There certainly seems to now be a resentment and a defiant attitude brewing among Dalits, and as that grows and finds voice, other people will have no choice but to change with the times. Hopefully it will not be a violent process, but it’s definitely a necessary process.
Oh and Prema (I’m sure you’re not a woman by the way)…forget that story, I’d like to tell the story of what would happen if you and I ever came face to face.
vishal:I’ve posted this in the Anti-reservation forum at Orkut.But i dont think reservations are going to remove the cobwebs from peoples minds in the
villages. If only everyone could be educated.
What an amusing twist of logic…this is like saying ‘there are houses getting robbed,so lets leave the door unlocked’.Of course,logic and Irony are unknown concepts amongst most Indians.
Let me explain explain the concept of reservation…reservation are for helping underprivileged Dalits gain access to jobs and education that they would not be able to access otherwise.
I am sure some of you would have no problems applying for minority scholarships and minority based business grants in the US while thinking reservations are bad for Dalits in India…
The girl at the end was clearly intelligent and articulate, perhaps endowed with g. The singular stupidity of the caste system keeps the intelligent poor from rising and contributing more to society, it’s a net loss all round.
Thanks for posting the clip, Anna. It’s a good reminder of how far we have to go.
Can somebody edify me on what the difference between Shudras and Dalits is, both in theory and in actual practice? Thanks.
hmm…what would be the implications for a country like the US waving all these people in?
I was disturbed to see this link as I was google-news searching my alma mater.
i mean. waving in some IIT professors that feel discrimination seems like a no brainer for the US. those people are frighteningly sharp.
“Can somebody edify me on what the difference between Shudras and Dalits is, both in theory and in actual practice?”
The usage in modern newspapers is:
Dalits = Scheduled Castes and Tribes = eligible for highest level of reservations
Shudras = Other backward castes = eligible for reservations, but not to the same level as Dalits
Dwijas = Not eligible for reservations
Brahminical = conservative (as opposed to liberal or progressive)
In news stories of atrocities on Dalits, it usually turns out that Dalits are landless farmers, while Shudras are landowners.
Thanks, PG. Sorry I wasn’t clear enough, but my question was about the religious/cultural difference between the two, as well as how they are treated in society.
How sad was it to hear the girl at the end, giving up on her dreams…
Untouchability obviously doesn’t matter when it comes to rape.
On the contrary, it obviously makes things just a little easier on the conscience of the upper caste rapists. What galls me is the Thevar in that segment acted like this was the most normal thing in the world, even something to be laughed off. What an ass.
I guess all the anti-untouchability legislation has no effect, because it doesn’t seem to be enforced at all. Where’s the government in all of this?
how many dalits/untuchables are there in india?
This appeared on Shivam’s blog (who works for Tehelka and seems to focus on such issues) a long time back and caused quite a few discussions on various Indian blogs and forums.
According to this, Dalits make up about 16% of the Indian population.
“how many dalits/untuchables are there in india?”
Narendra Jadhav’s book says 16% of the population.
“I guess all the anti-untouchability legislation has no effect, because it doesn’t seem to be enforced at all. Where’s the government in all of this?”
The Thevars are mobilized. A significant chunk of the MLAs were Thevars.
The Thevars are politically untouchable, pun intended, I guess. They have significant representation in Tamilnadu, and also are willing to demonstrate their clout with violent action. They also tend to have some notions of communal purity, and discourage marriages outside their community. I think the Thevar-Vanniyar rivalry in southern Tamilnadu leads to quite a few clashes, and has also been the subject of a few recent successful Tamil movies. There was an article a couple of years ago in Outlook India about one such movie, Kathal, and the aggressive reactions it elicited from Thevars watching it in theaters (a brief Google search was unable to find it).
if these guys are hard working folks, why not let in a good chuk of them into the US. I mean. india isnt treating them very well. im sure they would work their butts off…
The Thevars are mobilized. A significant chunk of the MLAs were Thevars.
Ok, I’m confused. As far as I know, the Thevars are not Dalits. In fact, the Thevar class is typically land-owning and wealthy. Are you just saying that political mobilization of non-Dalit groups like the Thevars prevents any government help to the Dalit groups (at least in TN)?
“Are you just saying that political mobilization of non-Dalit groups like the Thevars prevents any government help to the Dalit groups (at least in TN)?”
Yes, that’s correct.
Let’s see what happens in UP, where the Dalits are mobilized.
Like some people this video didn’t surprise me but it is humbling to think of all the opportunities I have been given by life and how far other human beings have to go. It was very heartbreaking. I think of someone like me that did live in India for 14 years and was sheltered by all this because I never ventured outside Mumbai. God I was completely ignorant about the rest of India until I was an adult. There are some things my parents never really taught me and I often wonder if they should have.
I think for me the most disturbing part of the video was:
The most telling part of this video was at 7:45 when that loathsome landlord gleefully boasted in front of a woman of his own family (probably his wife): “Earlier we used to rape a lot……now people look around carefully and if no one is there, suddenly seize the woman, roll with her and rape her”. Untouchability obviously doesn’t matter when it comes to rape.
i don’t know how they do it. the nasty shit in the sewage that the man pulled up usually has some stuff that spills out onto the roadside somewhere, and it always had the power to make me gag when I walked by it.
Rahul:
“Can somebody edify me on what the difference between Shudras and Dalits is, both in theory and in actual practice? Thanks.”
–> From discovery of india by nehru(beautifully written book):
Shudras are one of the 4 classes in the varna system(includes people who wash clothes, cut hair) while dalits(previously known as untouchables) are not even included in the varna system(The way Nehru puts it, he includes people in tribes that joined hinduism at some point of time).
In actual practice, I dont think it makes a difference.
To a believer in the insular, narrow minded varna system, all other castes are equally different and hence, deserving of contempt and discrimination.
In every state, we are seeing a similar fight between land-owning groups (typically, OBCs and affiliated castes) and landless labor (typically dalits). Neither group has been able to acquire much education and/or skills, because of the poor quality of the public education system (and complete disinterest in it from our so-called leadership) and lack of rural infrastructure. So growing self-assertion is accompanied by deep economic backwardness and anger, often, expressed in the most crude and violent terms. If you dont have much going for you economically and otherwise, you can at least abuse your “lower” neighbor and feel good about it.
I believe the recent events in the Punjab fall into these category as does the violence in Rajasthan; the elections in UP were another variation on this theme. Here are some comments from a dalit journalist:
[ORIGINAL COMMENT]
“For a country where manual scavenging is still prevalent : where untouchability is still an issue : me thinks the cartoon raises relevant questions…India shining notwithstanding…..”
[DC]
OMG…REALLY???!!! Thanks for pointing that out, I’m sure none of us knew about that….idiot.
Dear DC:
I am sure that you knew about this barbaric situation in the Mother Ship, and must be doing something to address this issue.
Nonetheless, despite your obvious enlightenment, it may be helpful to view this video, unless of course you shot it, in which case, kudos fine person….
Cheers (and a sloppy smooch)
Your friendly neighbourhood idiot
To all of us who grew up in India, even if for a few years, did we share our teacups and dinner plates with the people who worked in our homes? Porbably not. Do we share them today when we return to our families? Probably not. Do we balk at the idea that our salaries are actually 1000 times more than theirs? Probably not. This isn’t just about Dalit’s and Shudra’s. This is also about the few hundred million wretchedly poor that the ruling classes play God over.
Being a “south asian american” blog, why are ABDs worried about what is happenning in India while not bothered about plight of African Americans and Hispanics dalits in USA?
Forget mingling with African Americans or Hispanics, how many of the “enlightened-because-born-in-USA” South Asians date African Americans or Hispanics? How many of you invite your friends to your home?
During my first visit to US I was so disgusted with systematic discrimination of African Americans and Afr American beggars on the streets of San Francisco.
I hope those who shed tears on some YOUTUBE video funded and created by Missionary vultures aiming to convert dalits realize that while India had reservations and other welfare measures for dalits and lower castes since Independence, America did not even remove legalized discrimination of African Americans till 1960s.
India definitely has a long way to go but it is laughable to see ABDs sitting in the comforts of office in US (whose toilets are cleaned by Hispanic dalits and guarded by African American security guard working for minimum wage) going all sentimental on a video clip created/funded by missionaries with an agenda!
What a gut wrenching video that is!
38 Bahadur,
What is your point?
The video is absolutely heart -rending but does that give you an excuse to bash any of us that grew up in India?
It never fails. Any discussion of social problems in India is invariably followed by comments to the tune of “well, America isn’t so great either”…plus, blanket statements about ABDs who shed crocodile tears for the Dalits back home, but are more than content to walk all over others minorities in the US.
iFob, I fully agree. Let me clarify that I have never expressed a sense of solidarity with the Dalits on this thread. A morbid curiosity sometimes, some weak humor maybe, but, in the interests of consistency, definitely no sympathy.
African Americans and Hispanics dalits in USA…
A bit of hyperbole is it not? If not, I would love to see a reasoned attempt at proof of equivalency between Blacks/Hispanics in the US and Dalits in India.
Being a “south asian american” blog, why are ABDs worried about what is happenning in India while not bothered about plight of African Americans and Hispanics dalits in USA?
Why not? Is it that difficult for you to realize that in the same way that Sports Illustrated focuses on sports, SM focuses on all things desi? Just because we don’t post about it, that doesn’t mean we AREN’T bothered about the plight of others in this country.
Forget mingling with African Americans or Hispanics, how many of the “enlightened-because-born-in-USA” South Asians date African Americans or Hispanics? How many of you invite your friends to your home?
No one has claimed they are enlightened because of where they were born. Whom we date is irrelevant. Take your tu quoque and your red herrings elsewhere, please.
During my first visit to US I was so disgusted with systematic discrimination of African Americans and Afr American beggars on the streets of San Francisco.
And yet, it didn’t stop you from moving there– what does that say about YOU? Shall we turn your poor arguments against you? Why didn’t you worry about dalits at that moment?
India definitely has a long way to go but it is laughable to see ABDs sitting in the comforts of office in US (whose toilets are cleaned by Hispanic dalits and guarded by African American security guard working for minimum wage) going all sentimental on a video clip created/funded by missionaries with an agenda!
What’s laughable is your priorities: contempt for ABDs over compassion for the disenfranchised. Shame on you.
I have to admit Ifob has a point. The only Indians that have been cool with me have been from the islands or born here in the states, I must say that video was sad.
very sad, I’m suprised this still goes on in this day and age, only through open minds can we compete with the west. but the way we treat siddi and dalit will reflect bad on all of us.
Shudras are one of the 4 classes in the varna system(includes people who wash clothes, cut hair) while dalits(previously known as untouchables) are not even included in the varna system(The way Nehru puts it, he includes people in tribes that joined hinduism at some point of time).
In actual practice, I dont think it makes a difference.
In the traditional four varna system, the shudras were the lowest rung of those recognized as having any caste – the farmers and all of those who did manual labor. However, in modern terms the top three varnas are all tiny proportions of the populations, and in most of India there are no modern castes representing Kshatriyas. Rather you have technically shudra farmer castes which grew into landlord classes and regional rulers at various points in history – Thevars, Reddys, Kammas, Jatts, and so on. (Rajputs are the exception in actually claiming Kshatriya origin.) In each of the states – or regions within states – the parties are controlled by these castes, which are the driving force behind regional politics, and which are able to influence center politics due to the seats they control in Parliament. Sometimes these castes are referred to (by academics) as neo-Kshatriyas, especially when they have undergone ‘Sanskritization’ – adopting vegetarianism and other signs of the ‘twice-born.’
I hope those who shed tears on some YOUTUBE video funded and created by Missionary vultures aiming to convert dalits realize that while India had reservations and other welfare measures for dalits and lower castes since Independence, America did not even remove legalized discrimination of African Americans till 1960s.
Actually, these were made by leftists, not missionaries. (The first filmmaker cited is Stalin K!) As to whether that’s better or worse, you can decide. And I don’t think it was funded and created to be a YOUTUBE video.
The only Indians that have been cool with me have been from the islands or born here in the states,
Er..Doug,
I think iFOB was claiming the opposite of your experience so don’t agree with him 🙂
If you truly feel that NO India born person has/can be cool with you because of the color of you skin( I assume) then I am really sorry that we have not met.All us India borns are not the same!
Please allow me to share some personal experiences. I come from a very orthodox Tamil Brahmin family of not much means. When my siblings and I were in school, we just got by month to month. (Now we are slightly better off, but not much) As a result, we have all been instilled with a strong work ethic. When I was in college, I went to live in a village near Coimbatore in Tamil Nadu with a bunch of young Westerners and Indian college students. We were all in our early 20s then. The huts of the Dalits were in a clearly demarcated area. The village tea stall was where we would all converge for mid-morning and mid-afternoon tea (we were in the Village doing Habitat for Humanity type of work, this was the early 1990). The cups were clearly demarcated. We were not allowed to drink from the cups marked Dalit (they had to wthe floor benches outside. We obeyed this for the first two days unclear of what was going on. After the initial shock of the disparity set in and we felt a bit more comfortable, we all rebelled. We insisted on drinking tea from the cups the Dalits had used and would sit on the floor outdoors and request to be served there. It caused quite a stir in the village. The headman and several important villagers came to speak to us about this issue and tried to persuade us not to “disturb” what was norm in the village. I was one of the three in the group of 20 who spoke Tamil and acted as the translator. We refused to heed to their request. I was chastised several times not for being a part of the “rebellion” (as they saw it) but for being a Brahmin woman who didn’t know better than to get involved in this sort of thing. (No brahmins in that village btw) Finally compromise was reached but not of the kind we would have liked. A separate tea stall was set up for the Dalits at the other end of the village. Far from where we were working and closer to their own homes. Some of the Dalits came to us and requested us to please accept this compromise as it would work best for all. We were, but temporary residents of the village and would soon be gone. They did not want any retaliation from the people of the upper castes after we left.
zimblymallu i don’t know how they do it. the nasty shit in the sewage that the man pulled up usually has some stuff that spills out onto the roadside somewhere, and it always had the power to make me gag when I walked by it.
It is toddy/arrack/alcohol. The Dalits who do that kind of job are heavy drinkers. Of course this has a major impact on the women of the family who then become the primary bread earners because the money earned by the men goes straight to alcohol. I have worked at starting self help groups for such women (Microcredit etc.). It is a difficult job to do and toddy helps them do it. I attended the funeral of a Dalit in the village and they poured alcohol on his funeral pyre. Apparently it is the custom to put whatever the deceased person likes on the pyre and in this man’s case it was cheap liquor.
Sorry for the long post.
Runa #40, I didn’t mean to bash anyone. I just realized that we are all quite complicit in this. Yes, the video is heart-wrenching , an extreme case of discrimination but the problem isn’t limited to Dalit’s. I feel a lot of guilt for the way we treat so many people in India and yet generally consider ourselves socially conscious. And I really didn’t mean to make an Indians here versus there point. Apologies for any misunderstanding.
That was just heartrending. That girl at the end, I couldn’t bear to watch her face as she was talking. Thank you for sharing this.
Definitely touched a nerve, these words will stay with me forever.
“Ghannu dhuuk lage, phun su thai?”;
“Iloko kem aauu kare che?”;
“Si khabbar…”;
apologies to seasoned transliterators (the transliteratti par chance?), first time I’ve ever had to transliterate Gujarati
InshaAllah, as very fortunate people hopefully we can see past our simple differences and beyond the consumer-highway to find the amenable interventions that will make the difference. Personally, this the biggest question / tension that our niche generation faces.
I remember reading and learning about the caste system in Asian History when I was in highschool. I never gave it much thought, since where I was born (I’m not desi but I am asian) nothing as rabidly (for lack of a better word) heirarchical (pardon the spelling and possibly the grammatical error, at 11:45 p.m..). Seeing this video shows me how far removed I am from the world. So jaded. Seeing something like this breaks my heart, that little girl, she wanted to be a doctor or a nurse. I remember all my choices and all I can be was laid down at my feet and I was soo wishy washy about it and she could not fulfill her dreams because she was born a dalit.
Wow. I knew of the caste system, but I didn’t realize how bad it was to those unlucky enough to be born an untouchable. I hope their lives will improve.
What I don’t understand is why cant the government start mass producing sanitation gear for all sewage workers? Even freaking MExico has sewer uniforms and gas masks so the employees won’t get in touch with the crap they have to deal with.
As far as the guy who bragged about his caste people raping Dalit women when no one is looking, I hope he gets raped one day.
How completely bass ackwards. Not much of a surprise, though, when mythology, flying spaghetti monsters and the like inculcates itself in society.
Its too sad to see that .. I’ve posted this in the Anti-reservation forum at Orkut. But i dont think reservations are going to remove the cobwebs from peoples minds in the villages. If only everyone could be educated.
The most telling part of this video was at 7:45 when that loathsome landlord gleefully boasted in front of a woman of his own family (probably his wife): “Earlier we used to rape a lot……now people look around carefully and if no one is there, suddenly seize the woman, roll with her and rape her”. Untouchability obviously doesn’t matter when it comes to rape.
That reminded me of what Amitabh recently wrote about the taller, fairer and handsomer (than him and his friend) chamar/untouchable, now married to an italian woman, whose beautiful mother was “taken advantage of” by jatt sudra landlords, according to his jatt sikh friend. Remarkably, he told that story like there was nothing disgusting or immoral about it!
The Ministry of Truth hereby takes note of your actions.
I meant my previous statement as a response to #7: Its too sad to see that .. I’ve posted this in the Anti-reservation forum at Orkut.
I’d say it seems like the only thing that matters.
My brutha Strom agrees.
What an eye-opening and saddening video. I’m just hopeful that the seeds of awareness and social change are being planted now, and that in the coming generations, the children of the children shown in the video will not have to face what their parents went through. There certainly seems to now be a resentment and a defiant attitude brewing among Dalits, and as that grows and finds voice, other people will have no choice but to change with the times. Hopefully it will not be a violent process, but it’s definitely a necessary process.
Oh and Prema (I’m sure you’re not a woman by the way)…forget that story, I’d like to tell the story of what would happen if you and I ever came face to face.
vishal:I’ve posted this in the Anti-reservation forum at Orkut.But i dont think reservations are going to remove the cobwebs from peoples minds in the villages. If only everyone could be educated. What an amusing twist of logic…this is like saying ‘there are houses getting robbed,so lets leave the door unlocked’.Of course,logic and Irony are unknown concepts amongst most Indians. Let me explain explain the concept of reservation…reservation are for helping underprivileged Dalits gain access to jobs and education that they would not be able to access otherwise. I am sure some of you would have no problems applying for minority scholarships and minority based business grants in the US while thinking reservations are bad for Dalits in India…
The girl at the end was clearly intelligent and articulate, perhaps endowed with g. The singular stupidity of the caste system keeps the intelligent poor from rising and contributing more to society, it’s a net loss all round.
Thanks for posting the clip, Anna. It’s a good reminder of how far we have to go.
Can somebody edify me on what the difference between Shudras and Dalits is, both in theory and in actual practice? Thanks.
hmm…what would be the implications for a country like the US waving all these people in?
I was disturbed to see this link as I was google-news searching my alma mater.
i mean. waving in some IIT professors that feel discrimination seems like a no brainer for the US. those people are frighteningly sharp.
“Can somebody edify me on what the difference between Shudras and Dalits is, both in theory and in actual practice?”
The usage in modern newspapers is: Dalits = Scheduled Castes and Tribes = eligible for highest level of reservations Shudras = Other backward castes = eligible for reservations, but not to the same level as Dalits Dwijas = Not eligible for reservations Brahminical = conservative (as opposed to liberal or progressive)
In news stories of atrocities on Dalits, it usually turns out that Dalits are landless farmers, while Shudras are landowners.
Thanks, PG. Sorry I wasn’t clear enough, but my question was about the religious/cultural difference between the two, as well as how they are treated in society.
How sad was it to hear the girl at the end, giving up on her dreams…
Untouchability obviously doesn’t matter when it comes to rape.
On the contrary, it obviously makes things just a little easier on the conscience of the upper caste rapists. What galls me is the Thevar in that segment acted like this was the most normal thing in the world, even something to be laughed off. What an ass.
I guess all the anti-untouchability legislation has no effect, because it doesn’t seem to be enforced at all. Where’s the government in all of this?
how many dalits/untuchables are there in india?
This appeared on Shivam’s blog (who works for Tehelka and seems to focus on such issues) a long time back and caused quite a few discussions on various Indian blogs and forums.
According to this, Dalits make up about 16% of the Indian population.
“how many dalits/untuchables are there in india?” Narendra Jadhav’s book says 16% of the population.
“I guess all the anti-untouchability legislation has no effect, because it doesn’t seem to be enforced at all. Where’s the government in all of this?” The Thevars are mobilized. A significant chunk of the MLAs were Thevars.
The Thevars are politically untouchable, pun intended, I guess. They have significant representation in Tamilnadu, and also are willing to demonstrate their clout with violent action. They also tend to have some notions of communal purity, and discourage marriages outside their community. I think the Thevar-Vanniyar rivalry in southern Tamilnadu leads to quite a few clashes, and has also been the subject of a few recent successful Tamil movies. There was an article a couple of years ago in Outlook India about one such movie, Kathal, and the aggressive reactions it elicited from Thevars watching it in theaters (a brief Google search was unable to find it).
if these guys are hard working folks, why not let in a good chuk of them into the US. I mean. india isnt treating them very well. im sure they would work their butts off…
I found the Outlook India article.
The Thevars are mobilized. A significant chunk of the MLAs were Thevars.
Ok, I’m confused. As far as I know, the Thevars are not Dalits. In fact, the Thevar class is typically land-owning and wealthy. Are you just saying that political mobilization of non-Dalit groups like the Thevars prevents any government help to the Dalit groups (at least in TN)?
“Are you just saying that political mobilization of non-Dalit groups like the Thevars prevents any government help to the Dalit groups (at least in TN)?”
Yes, that’s correct.
Let’s see what happens in UP, where the Dalits are mobilized.
Like some people this video didn’t surprise me but it is humbling to think of all the opportunities I have been given by life and how far other human beings have to go. It was very heartbreaking. I think of someone like me that did live in India for 14 years and was sheltered by all this because I never ventured outside Mumbai. God I was completely ignorant about the rest of India until I was an adult. There are some things my parents never really taught me and I often wonder if they should have.
I think for me the most disturbing part of the video was:
i don’t know how they do it. the nasty shit in the sewage that the man pulled up usually has some stuff that spills out onto the roadside somewhere, and it always had the power to make me gag when I walked by it.
Rahul: “Can somebody edify me on what the difference between Shudras and Dalits is, both in theory and in actual practice? Thanks.”
–> From discovery of india by nehru(beautifully written book): Shudras are one of the 4 classes in the varna system(includes people who wash clothes, cut hair) while dalits(previously known as untouchables) are not even included in the varna system(The way Nehru puts it, he includes people in tribes that joined hinduism at some point of time). In actual practice, I dont think it makes a difference. To a believer in the insular, narrow minded varna system, all other castes are equally different and hence, deserving of contempt and discrimination.
In every state, we are seeing a similar fight between land-owning groups (typically, OBCs and affiliated castes) and landless labor (typically dalits). Neither group has been able to acquire much education and/or skills, because of the poor quality of the public education system (and complete disinterest in it from our so-called leadership) and lack of rural infrastructure. So growing self-assertion is accompanied by deep economic backwardness and anger, often, expressed in the most crude and violent terms. If you dont have much going for you economically and otherwise, you can at least abuse your “lower” neighbor and feel good about it.
I believe the recent events in the Punjab fall into these category as does the violence in Rajasthan; the elections in UP were another variation on this theme. Here are some comments from a dalit journalist:
Why Mayawati is wooing the Brahmins
Can the Adivasi status take Gujjars forward?
In a response to a comment to a previous story entitled “A Third Serving of Caste” the erudite DC muttered
dc on May 18, 2007 04:24 PM
[ORIGINAL COMMENT] “For a country where manual scavenging is still prevalent : where untouchability is still an issue : me thinks the cartoon raises relevant questions…India shining notwithstanding…..”
[DC] OMG…REALLY???!!! Thanks for pointing that out, I’m sure none of us knew about that….idiot.
Dear DC:
I am sure that you knew about this barbaric situation in the Mother Ship, and must be doing something to address this issue.
Nonetheless, despite your obvious enlightenment, it may be helpful to view this video, unless of course you shot it, in which case, kudos fine person….
Cheers (and a sloppy smooch)
Your friendly neighbourhood idiot
To all of us who grew up in India, even if for a few years, did we share our teacups and dinner plates with the people who worked in our homes? Porbably not. Do we share them today when we return to our families? Probably not. Do we balk at the idea that our salaries are actually 1000 times more than theirs? Probably not. This isn’t just about Dalit’s and Shudra’s. This is also about the few hundred million wretchedly poor that the ruling classes play God over.
Being a “south asian american” blog, why are ABDs worried about what is happenning in India while not bothered about plight of African Americans and Hispanics dalits in USA?
Forget mingling with African Americans or Hispanics, how many of the “enlightened-because-born-in-USA” South Asians date African Americans or Hispanics? How many of you invite your friends to your home?
During my first visit to US I was so disgusted with systematic discrimination of African Americans and Afr American beggars on the streets of San Francisco.
I hope those who shed tears on some YOUTUBE video funded and created by Missionary vultures aiming to convert dalits realize that while India had reservations and other welfare measures for dalits and lower castes since Independence, America did not even remove legalized discrimination of African Americans till 1960s.
India definitely has a long way to go but it is laughable to see ABDs sitting in the comforts of office in US (whose toilets are cleaned by Hispanic dalits and guarded by African American security guard working for minimum wage) going all sentimental on a video clip created/funded by missionaries with an agenda!
What a gut wrenching video that is!
38 Bahadur,
What is your point? The video is absolutely heart -rending but does that give you an excuse to bash any of us that grew up in India?
It never fails. Any discussion of social problems in India is invariably followed by comments to the tune of “well, America isn’t so great either”…plus, blanket statements about ABDs who shed crocodile tears for the Dalits back home, but are more than content to walk all over others minorities in the US.
iFob, I fully agree. Let me clarify that I have never expressed a sense of solidarity with the Dalits on this thread. A morbid curiosity sometimes, some weak humor maybe, but, in the interests of consistency, definitely no sympathy.
A bit of hyperbole is it not? If not, I would love to see a reasoned attempt at proof of equivalency between Blacks/Hispanics in the US and Dalits in India.
Why not? Is it that difficult for you to realize that in the same way that Sports Illustrated focuses on sports, SM focuses on all things desi? Just because we don’t post about it, that doesn’t mean we AREN’T bothered about the plight of others in this country.
No one has claimed they are enlightened because of where they were born. Whom we date is irrelevant. Take your tu quoque and your red herrings elsewhere, please.
And yet, it didn’t stop you from moving there– what does that say about YOU? Shall we turn your poor arguments against you? Why didn’t you worry about dalits at that moment?
What’s laughable is your priorities: contempt for ABDs over compassion for the disenfranchised. Shame on you.
I have to admit Ifob has a point. The only Indians that have been cool with me have been from the islands or born here in the states, I must say that video was sad.
very sad, I’m suprised this still goes on in this day and age, only through open minds can we compete with the west. but the way we treat siddi and dalit will reflect bad on all of us.
In the traditional four varna system, the shudras were the lowest rung of those recognized as having any caste – the farmers and all of those who did manual labor. However, in modern terms the top three varnas are all tiny proportions of the populations, and in most of India there are no modern castes representing Kshatriyas. Rather you have technically shudra farmer castes which grew into landlord classes and regional rulers at various points in history – Thevars, Reddys, Kammas, Jatts, and so on. (Rajputs are the exception in actually claiming Kshatriya origin.) In each of the states – or regions within states – the parties are controlled by these castes, which are the driving force behind regional politics, and which are able to influence center politics due to the seats they control in Parliament. Sometimes these castes are referred to (by academics) as neo-Kshatriyas, especially when they have undergone ‘Sanskritization’ – adopting vegetarianism and other signs of the ‘twice-born.’
Actually, these were made by leftists, not missionaries. (The first filmmaker cited is Stalin K!) As to whether that’s better or worse, you can decide. And I don’t think it was funded and created to be a YOUTUBE video.
Er..Doug,
I think iFOB was claiming the opposite of your experience so don’t agree with him 🙂
If you truly feel that NO India born person has/can be cool with you because of the color of you skin( I assume) then I am really sorry that we have not met.All us India borns are not the same!
Please allow me to share some personal experiences. I come from a very orthodox Tamil Brahmin family of not much means. When my siblings and I were in school, we just got by month to month. (Now we are slightly better off, but not much) As a result, we have all been instilled with a strong work ethic. When I was in college, I went to live in a village near Coimbatore in Tamil Nadu with a bunch of young Westerners and Indian college students. We were all in our early 20s then. The huts of the Dalits were in a clearly demarcated area. The village tea stall was where we would all converge for mid-morning and mid-afternoon tea (we were in the Village doing Habitat for Humanity type of work, this was the early 1990). The cups were clearly demarcated. We were not allowed to drink from the cups marked Dalit (they had to wthe floor benches outside. We obeyed this for the first two days unclear of what was going on. After the initial shock of the disparity set in and we felt a bit more comfortable, we all rebelled. We insisted on drinking tea from the cups the Dalits had used and would sit on the floor outdoors and request to be served there. It caused quite a stir in the village. The headman and several important villagers came to speak to us about this issue and tried to persuade us not to “disturb” what was norm in the village. I was one of the three in the group of 20 who spoke Tamil and acted as the translator. We refused to heed to their request. I was chastised several times not for being a part of the “rebellion” (as they saw it) but for being a Brahmin woman who didn’t know better than to get involved in this sort of thing. (No brahmins in that village btw) Finally compromise was reached but not of the kind we would have liked. A separate tea stall was set up for the Dalits at the other end of the village. Far from where we were working and closer to their own homes. Some of the Dalits came to us and requested us to please accept this compromise as it would work best for all. We were, but temporary residents of the village and would soon be gone. They did not want any retaliation from the people of the upper castes after we left.
zimblymallu i don’t know how they do it. the nasty shit in the sewage that the man pulled up usually has some stuff that spills out onto the roadside somewhere, and it always had the power to make me gag when I walked by it.
It is toddy/arrack/alcohol. The Dalits who do that kind of job are heavy drinkers. Of course this has a major impact on the women of the family who then become the primary bread earners because the money earned by the men goes straight to alcohol. I have worked at starting self help groups for such women (Microcredit etc.). It is a difficult job to do and toddy helps them do it. I attended the funeral of a Dalit in the village and they poured alcohol on his funeral pyre. Apparently it is the custom to put whatever the deceased person likes on the pyre and in this man’s case it was cheap liquor.
Sorry for the long post.
Runa #40, I didn’t mean to bash anyone. I just realized that we are all quite complicit in this. Yes, the video is heart-wrenching , an extreme case of discrimination but the problem isn’t limited to Dalit’s. I feel a lot of guilt for the way we treat so many people in India and yet generally consider ourselves socially conscious. And I really didn’t mean to make an Indians here versus there point. Apologies for any misunderstanding.