Pream Anandarajah is a Canadian born Tamil teenager whose uninsured Scarborough home was recently firebombed, sending his mother Jeyaluckshmi to the burn unit at the hospital [via UB]. And yes, this was an ethnic attack, but not in the way you might think. His attackers weren’t white, they were Sri Lankan Tamils, but FOBs recent immigrants instead of Canadian born. Is FOB as bad a word as n–er?
That’s right — there’s intragroup gang violence between CBD and recent immigrant Sri Lankan Hindu Tamils, serious violence:
Hours before the firebombing, a friend of Anandarajah’s was stabbed … He rattles off the names of gangs that he says recently arrived Sri Lankan youth have formed: EST (East Side Thugs); BNS; BNS Juniors; Tux Boys (Tuxedo Park); Tiger Boys; Gilders (Gilders Street). [Link]
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The house is now largely destroyed |
The firebombing was part of an escalating series of retaliatory attacks, including one where Anandarajah was jumped by 12 students in the high school parking lot and knifed:
Touching his neck he says, “I don’t know how I got this scar. It happened after I was knocked out. They beat me up real bad. My mom couldn’t even recognize my face.” [Link]
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p>One major beef between the groups is the use of the word FOB:
Frequently tossed around in the escalating feud between the groups is a loaded word, used to bully, label and shame. The mostly Tamil Sri Lankan youth around Scarborough who get called FOBs say the word is used as a weapon against them.
“It’s like calling a black man, n—–,” says a Grade 10 student. [Link]
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p>Apparently, that name calling also played a role in the firebombing:
Anandarajah says it was older youths who were responsible for the attack on his house, most of whom either dropped out or have been expelled. “I understand why they’re angry, calling them FOBs. But they took it too far with this…” [Link]
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p>The whole thing seems to be about being “square”. Recent immigrants say they get harassed for not fitting in:
… [Recent immigrants] say the tension begins in high school. They get harassed for playing cricket, having unfashionable hairdos, wearing tight-fitting shirts, too high pants and speaking Tamil. [Link]
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p>Their Canadian born brethren seem to agree. Recent immigrants are just uncool:
“They can’t speak English, they have these weird haircuts,” says Chris, a Grade 12 student at nearby L’Amoreaux Collegiate. “The way they walk and they dress bad. It gives Sri Lankans a bad name, it’s embarrassing.”
One of them blurts out that they’re “fresh off the banana boat, they’re all FOBs, Tiger Boys, and they always will be…” The differences seem minor. Unless you’re in high school. “It’s stupid,” Anandarajah says. “But when we’re playing soccer, why do they have to come over and play cricket? We don’t play cricket here…” [Link]
So what say you? Is FOB a highly offensive term? What term would you prefer? NRI is both exclusionary (doesn’t apply here), and imprecise (to the Indian government I’m both an NRI and an ABD). Is there a different term that works better?
Would you start a fight if you got called a “FOB” ?
“Fresh off the boat” has the same history as “banana republic” and other colonial exploits. It has been used, especially by nativists, in the U.S. to degrade immigrants of all nationalities for at least the last 100 years. I’m not saying it’s equivalent to the n-word, but it’s naive to think it’s some cute little epithet that some 2nd gen’ers came up with for 1st gen immigrants.
Sorry for the triple post – a clarification. I’m not saying “FOB” came out of colonial activity, I’m just saying that these terms are OLD and have a history. They didn’t just pop up overnight, or even in the last 30 years. But to bring it to the present, when folks talk about Vietnamese or Cuban or Jamaican boat people, they aren’t talking about “boat people” as a positive cute little term. It is a term that has been historically used in a disparaging and degrading way, and I think we should recognize that.
“It is a term that has been historically used in a disparaging and degrading way, and I think we should recognize that.”
Camille, I think you’re on point here. It’s not an endearing term at all, and the irony is, while the “fresh” part might be intended as a divisive insult (ie, I’ve been here longer than you), the “boat” part isn’t divisive at all, as it’s an insult to country of origin, as poor, backwards, etc… And given the close generational connection between 1st gen and 2nd gen (my math gives me… 1 generational difference), you’re essentially insulting yourself. Sort of like calling your brother a sonuvabitch.
Why do you live in the United States?
To overthrow whitey and his effeminate, low-birthrate “civilization”! He came there so we came here!
The United States is 30% non-white and South Asians make up 0.8% of the population
30% and rising! AND RISING!
Long live the revolution of the peoples of color!
FoB for me is a cool term. I am reminded of some of the best looking coolest indians I knew back at UIC. They had just come from India when they were in high school or for college at UIC. But they were FoB’s because of accent, food they ate, and being into cricket and indian films..
I even remember going to desi parties — and people would tell me that they had just come from pakistan two days ago — and already they are at the desi party !
Or YOUR MOM! Oooooooo.
Very good point, well put, Amitabh. Here I think the problem is how the media and the public characterize a certain problem. When do a bunch of kids displaying all the delinquent behaviors you mention, become a ‘gang’?
In the US suburbs, the media do not characterize it as a ‘gang’ problem, when the kids involved are white – it’s just a bunch of kids with issues, just acting out, nothing a rehab clinic or ‘teen boot camp’ or military school wouldn’t solve!
But when suburban ethnic kids do those same things, then it can become a ‘gang’ problem very fast!
US suburban desis are still quite spread out, the geographic concentrations of the Toronto suburban Tamils and Vancouver suburban Sikhs is not there (and still in parts of suburban NJ, where you do get these concentrations, you do see it!). But in California or Florida, the ‘Latino gangs’ are both urban and suburban, since the community has spread out, and that’s how the media sees them.
I’ve also seen Jewish delinquent youth from upper-middle class homes in US suburbs – where there is some geographic concentration – acting in ‘gangs’ – but it just doesn’t get the same kind of press.
None of this is to excuse the happenings that occassioned Ennis’s post.
@Ardy #39 – ‘ Given a choice though I think most Fobs would prefer the use of DBD or IBD. ‘ @Sadaiyappan #105 – ‘ But they were FoB’s because of accent, food they ate, and being into cricket and indian films..’
In a post which is telling you that ‘FOB’ is an offensive term, why do you ignore this and continue to casually throw that term around ? If a post which is asking whether ‘FOB is as bad as N-er’ doesn’t make you stop using this term, I don’t know what will.
Yeah, but I don’t find it offensive, I think it is a cool term..
YOU think it is a cool term. But if you read the post and dozens of comments later, you would have noticed many who said it IS offensive. Going by your logic, it means that if YOU thought ‘N-er’ was a ‘cool term’ as well, the following statements would be just fine on this forum:
Ardy #39 – ‘ Given a choice though I think most Ners would prefer the use of .. ‘ Sadaiyappan #105 – ‘ But they were Ners because of accent, food they ate, and being into … ‘
No problem at all, right ?
Now I love the so-called FOBs. Before I didn’t. When I was in high school trying to fit in (one of four Indian kids in school) along comes a very nice girl, a recent immigrant who epitomized some of the stereotypical traits. She was awkward, unconcerned with fashion, super-diligent, obedient and respectful. No, I was not happy with her. I knew my not-really-cool-in-the-first-place stock would plummet even further by association.
To a certain extent, I can understand the adolescent chagrin referenced in the post, although they’re clearly taking their embarrassment too far.
Now that I’ve made peace with my own inner FOB, the new-immigrant lack of sophistication — oiled hair, unfashionable clothes, standing up when a teacher talks to you — tugs at the old heartstrings. It reminds me, ever so fondly, of Om and Ishvar in A Fine Balance – pre-talcum powder and whatnot.
FOB is to the West what “angrez” is to India.
Parts of India, PG. Some people in India don’t even know what “angrez” means! 🙂
Randomizer #110 – Whats your opinion on black people using the N word for themselves?
what does it mean ?
Personally, I don’t find FOB to be an offensive word, in my eyes it’s more of a humorous term..I mean really–who comes over on a boat anyway?
Then again though, I was born and brought up in the States and if one person finds it offensive then by all means, it is.
Now that I think about it, I use the term only in private and often with just my American born friends. I would never tell a recent immigrant that they’re a “FOB”…which I guess inherently implies that I think it is an insult.
chachji the reason punjabi/sikh gangs get press in Vancouver is the murder rate and the amount of shootings that involve them.
Both the Hell Angels and East Asian Gangs are much more powerful, but they don’t have the number of violent acts that Punjabi gangs do in Vancouver. There have been shootings and stabbings in the punjabi community in Vancouver over just giving somebody the wrong look or talking to someone girlfriends. Some of the shootings have taken place in crowded nightclubs or 12 o’clock in the afternoon on busy streets in front of hundreds people. It’s like they almost like the attention that comes from there acts of stupidity.
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blockquote>Kesh, why don’t we raid “ungrateful” people’s houses in the middle of the night, put them all in prison camps, deny them access to attorneys, try to deport their asses and then hold them indefinitely when their countries of origin don’t take them back? OH WAIT, WE ALREADY DO THAT.
No need for the brown on brown hate, Shafraz.
Man, desis got issues. This makes my head hurt.
And hence we don’t have as bad a desi gang problem and no successful terror attacks in the United States. You thing if strong measures weren’t implemented you would be able to sleep as easily as night?
Look at what the liberal policies of the Canadian and UK goverments have brought upon them,Although i hate all Fundamentalists, i have more respect for a cave dwelling Mujahideen who is a veteran of the soviet wars than for these kids with the ‘Cultural assimilation’ issues and whose way of the warrior is to kill civilians. People who are granted asylum in a country know that there is a reason that they are there, its because they or their parents wanted to ESCAPE the violence of their home countries. Bringing the violence with them defeats their whole purpose don’t you think
Of course neither is turning the country into a police state and of course they all have a right to an attorney. But if they are found guilty,gaol and thrown them out.
You’ve clearly never been to Scarborough…
As someone mentioned, the Toronto Police did form a special unit to tackle the Tamil gang problem after it flared up in the late 90’s/early 00’s. It was very effective and, through deportation and jailing, it isn’t nearly the problem it once was. The gangs these kids are talking about aren’t the serious criminal operations of that time, they’re groups of kids with nothing better to do and little/no parental supervision.
‘Fob’ is offensive, but I think any other word would have done the trick. It’s two alienated groups trying to find themselves…the only exceptional part of this is the level of violence. The reasons for that are anyones guess.
To the fellow who was upset that the kids identified themselves as Sri Lankan – shouldn’t you be OVERJOYED that ltte-loving racketeering toronto tamils are self-identifying as Sri Lankan?
sorry went crazy with the quote’s button
Isn’t it partially because an ethnic group regardless of its activities is a little problematic since assimilation has always been the goal?
Maybe i am just ignorant but dont Indians in India also have terms for each other as well. Every time i have been to india, i have heard negative comments by Indians about people that are poorer or less refined or less educated than them. Isnt it a little hypocritical that some of the them then move over here and complain about being called FOB?
For those people those people that are from india that have never put down another indian with a negative term I agree FOB is a horrible term and should never be used to refer to you. However if you one of the other group, i guess I just dont understand how you can be so angry about the term when you use similar terms for others in India.
@Ardy #114 –
I think black people who are comfortable using that term to describe themselves can call themselves whatever they want – as long as everyone at the receiving end are cool with it. There are black people who are cool with it, and others who hate the usage.
Obviously, on a forum where there are people who find it offensive ( like this one ), it is insensitive to use the word. And if you read the post as well as the comments that followed, you will see dozens of commentators who are not cool with using ‘Fob’ as a term to describe IBD immigrants.
My gut instinct is that FOB is insulting. I’ve used it a couple of times on this site (never outside it) and cringed afterward; I prefer IBD.
It also bothered me when the desi kids I grew up used the word ‘Pakis’, or even ‘browns’ to describe themselves. Issues of word-appropriation aside, it seems to me words like this reduce people to one element and are therefore inappropriate. Hence I always hate to see headlines referring to ‘Muslims’ (ie Eight Muslims Arrested) – who ever reads such headlines about ‘Christians’?
That said, I’ve used ‘whitey’ over and over again without feeling the least twinge of conscience…I guess because the word ‘whitey’ does not mirror some real marginalization in a white majority culture. Any thoughts?
Gaon-walla, buddhu, kalu, motu, etc…..
That was uncalled for – separating Tamils from the rest of the Sri Lankan population. I hate to break it to you but not all Tamils are ‘bad’. Similarily, not all Moors, Sinhalese, Malays and Burghers are ‘good’. Take this story for example. Irony is that the victim was in fact Tamil while the murderer was Sinhalese. Doesn’t THIS story embarass you as a ‘non-Tamil Sri Lankan’ as you call yourself?
The parallel to the “Nword” doesnt really hold. The reason for black folks using it, in particular in music and entertainment, is to sell a culture. In addition, them using it to refer to each other is again an attempt to internalize a word used against them. There’s no transience.
“Fob” is not a culture, rather refers to a transient state that erodes to some degree, depending on length of stay and actual applied efforts to erode it.
Even in the article, the “ABCD” stated he was once a “FOB”
But in all honesty, I’m very thankful I didn’t have to confront these issues in high school, there’s so much else going on just trying to fit in, this added layer doesn’t do much to help.
practically, if you’re a CBD, and you’re searching for a good catch-all term to insult your recently arrived SL Tam brethren, you had better get your head checked. The majority of the recently arrived are coming from a relative war zone and would predictably not have any patience for ANY kind of slight.
Take the perceived loss of manhood suffered by VHP/RSS types in India and then multiply it a thousand times–this is just how aggrieved the recently arrived will feel. You could call them anything–it wouldn’t matter in the least as long as they perceived it to be insulting.
There is a precedent example: London. There have been Tamil gangs in London’s tamil population for as long as it has been statistically significant. Most of their violence has been Tamil-on-Tamil. I’m not sure if there is the same antagonism between the recently arrived and those who are born there, but there certainly is a great deal of exploitation, on the part of the established Tamil population, of the recently arrived.
Randomizer
I am not so sure if black people use the N word while caring if other people are cool with it or not when they use it for themselves. But then the N word has a lot of history regarding reclamation and I don’t want us to reclaim Fob and make it positive. Like I said, I prefer DBD/IBD but I don’t think Fob is that big a deal either.
As for the point you are making, it is my opinion that the word Fob is only insulting if someone used it to insult me. The offense in a slur is derived more from it’s intent and less from the word itself. Thus if I, a Fob/IBD/DBD use it to describe someone like me or myself, I don’t see why you would be offended.
Ardy, lets call it a truce. Let me just say that ‘FOB’ has always been a slur on immigrants, and the lesser ‘FOB’ is used, the better… be it by ABDs or IBDs. I would really like to see less of the word being used in SM, and I thank Ennis for raising our awareness.
that’s a really good point. as we all know, desis can be very exclusive in trying to identify themselves, which often leads to prejudice against others, be it by language, caste, religion or otherwise. this reminds me of a recent article of the desi high-school spelling bee participant, whose father was denied asylum, on the grounds that those who persecute others cannot use fear of persecution as a reason for their own asylum [the father was a member of VHP, a hindu radical group]. so i guess if you do not expect prejudice by others, you shouldn’t be committing it yourself, even if it is against a different group of ‘others’
I guess so given the issues – I am not a big fan of the reclamation idea for the word FOB and if we had to use one term which does not offend anyone, then it probably should be DBD for SA and IBD if its India specific.
Yup, I think this story is as simple as one group of people accusing another group of being weak and awkward, and sealing that marginalization with a concise label of identification. It has nothing to do with anything specific to FOBs or Tamils or CBDs or etc. The violence was retalliation to disprove weakness.
Thank you ak. That was exactly the point I was trying to make. Before you question the vitriol in a word like FOB maybe you should think about similar words you have used in the past and why you used them. Case in point from the article.
“It’s like calling a black man, n—–,” says a Grade 10 student at Stephen Leacock Collegiate, where Anandarajah attends Grade 12. The younger student is gathered after school with a half dozen friends that Anandarajah’s group call FOBs.”
How can you possibly make you point about the negativity of one word by freely using a more evil and dimnishing word for a different group of people.
122: So what do you propose — ask every Indian if they were sufficiently politically correct back home before deciding what to call them?
Freedom of speech. We can call people whatever we want but have to be willing to face the consequences also.
Similarly, we need to learn self-control when our own egos get bruised.
Sticks and stones may break our bones but names can never hurt us.
huh, I do not follow your logic at all
By your logic , if any black person has ever used a term perjorative to another member of the black or other communities ,then and its ok to use the n** word for them.I do not buy that.
How do you propose to regulate this? Are you going to ask each and everyone of us recent immigrants if we have ever used a term that someone could consider offensive against any group of people and then decide whether to call us FOBs or not?
Have you lived in India? Do you know for the fact that every Indian uses perjorative terms for other Indians ? Is that a peculiarly Indian /DBD trait ?
In every country and every part of the world you will find some people who look down on other people- that is human nature and I do not see how it is germane to this discussion at all. Isn’t it enough that on this board at least there are some of us who find FOB offensive and so we ask that SM uses DBD?
Or is your ire only directed towards non-browns when they usea term like ‘maccaca’ to describe you – but it takes a rest when people use offensive terms against recent brown immigrants ?( I am going to take a huge leap of faith here and assume that you are brown and an ABD/FBD at that.If you are not , well then, the discussion is pointless since you personally do not find FOB offensive)
Pg @ 125 :
The American/English equivalents of the terms you mention are:
Villager, dumb ( or stupid), dark-skinned ( or black) , fat
What is your point? Americans don’t use these terms?
kathkavi, No..thats not what i propose. I was saying that not everyone who is called FOB and complains about it is innocent of putting a cruel name on someone else. And that before you throw your hands up in outrage you should look to see if you have been guilty of a similar cruetly.
Like I said before for those desis who have not used a derogatory term for another indian I agree FOB is not a term that should ever be referred to you.
Uh, right. And like I asked before, how do you determine if someone has used a derogatory term for another Indian or not? Or is it presumed guilty unless proven otherwise?
My own experience:
I emigrated from a 2nd-tier, well-planned city in India to Singapore nearly a decade ago as a 13 year old kid. For those who don’t know, Singapore is approx. 75% chinese majority city-state, with about 15-17% Malays and 7-8% Indians (nearly 60% Tamil, followed by Malyalees, Punjabis, Gujaratis, Indian Muslims & Hindustanis (Biharis, U.P.ites etc)).
Indians & Bangladeshis form the majority of construction workers here, and hence all Brown people are stereotyped along those lines. Quite a few of the ethnic Indians are the descendents of the convict labor brought over to Singapore by the Brits while the rest came to the city-state under subsequent British rule as soldiers, milk men, dhobies, merchants, clerks etc. They were granted citizenship upon Singapore’s separation from Malaysia in 1965 (and since Nehru had decided not to extend Indian citizenship to Indians settled overseas in 1947). For their pathetic 7-8% of the population, the Indians here have made a significant effect on Singapore. Despite that, I would say the majority are 2nd class citizens at least in terms of their social standing. Filipinos & Indonesians are stereotypical ‘maids’. And PRC folks are seen as uncouth, uncivilised commies. You should get the picture; all that’s the typical behaviour of any well to do society.
Now to my own story:
I remember getting into a huge fight with a bunch of Chinese classmates when one of them called me a ‘Bloody Indian’. I also remember getting bullied by the Chinese & Malays in school and being told to ‘go back to my country’. Name calling, subtle & direct discrimination, lingual discrimination were all too common as well. Indian accent & Indian dress sense doesn’t help much either. Oh yes, add “getting rejected by chicks (who did dig me!) because I was an ‘Indian’ & their folks won’t like that” was a frequent heartache as well.
I once remember getting a nuanced lecture by an obese, 13 year old malaysian-chinese who explained to me why Indians stink (literally). He suggested a few remedies too: such as frequent showers etc. Nevermind that a couple of years later he used to get bullied by me on a per hour basis.
People not sitting beside you in buses is very common. So is security people in stores checking on raggedy looking browns, just to make sure they are not pulling off a Winona Ryder.
Years later, moving up the social heirarchy & with a healthy appetite for violence (& good grades + some intelligence to back it all up), I eventually didn’t manage to get jailed or deported & gasp turned over a new leaf. I realized that for all the sterotypers, there were a lot of good folk around as well. With frequent crackdowns on Teen gangs, strict laws & gun control, life was much simpler than I think from gang-areas in Canada, U.S. or U.K.
I have also learned that the majority can’t give shit about the minority.& First World nations almost always treat Third Worlders with sheer contempt or condescension. I can deal with that.
But then one day, after I got into a bloody fight with a Singaporean Indian, I realized that many hyphenated Indians hate India-born Indians, sometimes even worse than other races. These hyphenated-Indians, who are often 2md class citizens in their own country, watch Bollywood, attend ‘Bhangra-nights’ & eat desi at times, hate the guts of their India-born Indians, often called ‘imported goods’ in local lingo.
Gosh.
And the only reason behind that: embarassment resulting from being associated with Indian stereotypes, which hyphenated-Indians must have tried so hard to get rid of before finally being accepted by their host country/neighbourhood & its majority group.
It’s sad, in a way. But then, Indians as the residents of a loose geo-political entity called the Indian subcontinent have been fighting, plotting, killing each other mainly. And I find they are an object of ridicule almost everywhere.
Well after this long digression, I would say that yes, being called a FOB (or any other insult for that matter) is worth fighting against. For the immigrants, I suggest some ways to fight:
1) Have a one on one fight, no weapons allowed. Have friends nearby. If the other party hits your balls, it’s a free for all. Downside: very often the losing party will bring his ‘gang’ and jump you when you least expect it. Or firebomb your house & burn your mom. Which is seriously fucked up & crossing the line; you touch the family, you are dead. Furthermore, such extreme violence only reinforces hatred & intensifies stereotypes. Not a good option. You might also end up dead. Or deported.
2) Do in Rome as romans do: Ditch that tight ass pant, change your hairdo, get a decent makeover in tune with the local tastes. Try to have a neutral accent. Join a gym, toughen up. What’s wrong in improving oneself? Other than all that, just be yourself, do well in school, socialize, and get your ass to college. Don’t ruin your life with all that gang shit. That’s NOT why your folks emigrated in the first place! You could have had a better career as a gangster in India, for that matter. So be a man, & do your thing! That’s a fight all by itself.
Fob’s not a mean word, it has a meaning. You can definitely tell most FOBs by their body language. It’s only a derogatory term if it’s used with bad intent (eg: if you’re trying to insinuate that they’re dumber or less civilized people…which they’re NOT!) It’s not like SOME Fobs didn’t come up with the term ABCD to retaliate…calling someone confused (dumb) is a lot meaner than calling someone fresh (no bad connotation, IMO). I know people who say they’re FOBs with pride. “Fresh off the Boeing and adjusting to a new reality” seems like a tougher person than “kid raised here and comfortable in its ‘natural’ environment”. <–ABD perspective, clearly biased.
In the article, it’s a variation of the “cool kids” vs dorks/geeks/whoever else that stands out. It’s good old oldschool bullying! (that was sarcasm, chill…)
Replacing FOB with DBD is silly. It’s like saying African American instead of Black, you mean the same thing…and someone who has hate in them will use either one with equal hate while saying it. Plus, not all Black people are African Americans…unless you go back yay generations, in which case we shouldn’t use Guyanese either. People try too hard to be PC, in the end someone who’s gonna be a jerk is gonna be a jerk no matter what word your force them to use, and someone who’s gonna take it to heart is gonna take it to heart no matter what your intent while saying something.
Sadaiyappan,
Goto East Ham! My brother used to live there..and the gangs roam openly..i was there last diwali and the kids there were blasting firecrackers and this guys house and actually went up to his house and started breaking his door..these are the kids mind you..this happenned till the cops came by..this happens every year on diwali..The situaltion is worse in toronto where you will see tamil guy on the newspaper arrested for something..Some few dumb people give us tamil people a bad name..i am not going to pass judgement on this as i am indian tamil and do not know how the srilankans were brought up..but i would think the war affects these new immigrants and makes them hard to assimilate in a civilized society and they end up doing what they think is right..fight!!
Runa first of all I didnt start this discussion and I never said i was someone who used the word FOB to refer to anyone. If anything I said it was a horrible term.
Second your statement:
“In every country and every part of the world you will find some people who look down on other people- that is human nature and I do not see how it is germane to this discussion at all.”
As I understand it you feel like looking down on anyone should be accepted and natural. I disagree and as I said you should be careful how you use your word in all cases. If you dont like the word FOB then you should make efforts to limit your own perjoratives.
Lastly you statement: “Or is your ire only directed towards non-browns when they usea term like ‘maccaca’ to describe you”
proves that you didnt read anything i wrote. I said anyone that uses a negtive terms should be careful about those actions coming back to haunt them. If i walked around happily using a word like FOB then I can’t be angry when someone uses a word like macaca to describe me now can I?
And yes i am desi and born here and yes i lived in india for 3 years of my life. and lastly i respect your wishes to use DBD I never said I didnt. I just said the moral outage at the usage of this word should also prevocate some introspection into the words we all use callously that hurt others.
Huh?,
I think I need to clarify : I meant its human nature that SOME people in each part of the world will look down on other people .Please note I did not say that its right
I am objecting to the generalization that : All Indians are pejorative towards other Indians Therefore recent Indian immigrants can be called FOBs
My point is : in every community/race/class etc you will find someone who has used a perjorative against someone else .That does not absolve you if you use a perjorative against the entire class of people.That’s all.
Please use DBD .Since SM does not use ABCD in the posts here (as far as I have seen) I do not think it is fair to use FOB.
kathkavi, do you propose people stop using that word all together? If so I am all for it and the abolishment of all words that are used to degrade people. Like i have said and have continued to say..words like these are not things you can police. They stop when people realize their harmfulness through introspection. And thats all I was saying with my posts. If you use perjoratives for others you cant be angry when they are used for you.
PG, is that the best you can do?…buddhu (stupid)?…motu (fat)?…with your 13 years of experience with India? 😉 … one word I could think of was ghati, that mumbaikars use for those from the marathi hinterland..I can’t think of another…
I was once called the other N word for South Asians in Canada – Paki. That’s why I like America so much better – we believe in discrimination without unnecessary slurs. Interestingly enough, the slur did hurt, though Paki as a word means nothing more than a nationality. But words assume new meanings depending on who is uttering them to whom.
FOB as a derogatory concept has been used by all immigrant groups to disparage their struggling, less mainstreamed counterparts.
138 Runa “Isn’t it enough that on this board at least there are some of us who find FOB offensive and so we ask that SM uses DBD?”
I had no idea FOB had such an emotionally charged connotation anywhere in North America. Now that I know, I concur with Runa and would strongly urge the “SM junta” to refrain from using this word as an innocent term to merely describe new immigrants. It doesn’t matter whether it should or should not offend anybody. The fact is that it does, and I am sure SM writers and commenters feel a responsibility to lead by example.
runa, please understand that i am not saying that any DBD should be called a FOB. I am just saying that before someone becomes upset about a word like FOB they should consider their own harmful words. In my experience I have had friends, relatives, acquaintences who, like the student I quoted above at Anandarajah’s school, have used worlds like the N word and other insulting words without compunction but who are livid at words like FOB.
I am sorry for our miscommuncation and I although i have not used FOB before personally will use DBD or desi on this board.
Ennis in the post: “Is FOB as bad a word as n—er?”
As a linguist would say, the meaning of a word is nothing but a consensus among people to attribute a certain meaning to the word. If a group of people, in this case Indians somewhere in Canada, do agree that FOB is as bad as n-er, then it is. At least FOB is one word that didn’t come from India. “So there you go!.” (Watched My Big Fat Greek Wedding again last night.)
The grown gang violence between recent teenage immigrants in Toronto is a growing problem & has been for years. Many a family friend I know have moved out of Scarborough & certian areas in an effort to avoid their teenager from falling victims or even joining these gangs. They make an extra effort to keep their teens occupied in extra-curricular after school activities so as not to have idle teenage minds. It is disheartening that these teens are getting into gangs especially when their parents have migrated to escape the very same life that they would be exposed to back home. I cannot understand why political problems can’t be left behind & why it has to be brought into their adoptive country. But it’s largely the fault of the parents. How involved they are in their teen’s life is a clear indicator of how these teens behave. We migrated to Canada in our teens & my parents would have whooped me & my brother had we gotten into bad company. We were already given clear instructions as to what behaviour was acceptable & what was not. They kept a close eye on us & were very involved.
With regards to the name calling, people just need to get over it. Why make a big issue? Just ignore & let things be…
Funny thing. When I started high school in Toronto, I was called a PAKI by some black girl who was just pissed off about something. I didn’t know why she was calling me so! I just gave her a weird look & wanted to yell back: BUT I’M NOT FROM PAKISTAN! CAN’T YOU TELL THE DIFFERENCE??? Being FOB, little did I know that Paki was the derogatory Indian equivalent of the N word…