Pream Anandarajah is a Canadian born Tamil teenager whose uninsured Scarborough home was recently firebombed, sending his mother Jeyaluckshmi to the burn unit at the hospital [via UB]. And yes, this was an ethnic attack, but not in the way you might think. His attackers weren’t white, they were Sri Lankan Tamils, but FOBs recent immigrants instead of Canadian born. Is FOB as bad a word as n–er?
That’s right — there’s intragroup gang violence between CBD and recent immigrant Sri Lankan Hindu Tamils, serious violence:
Hours before the firebombing, a friend of Anandarajah’s was stabbed … He rattles off the names of gangs that he says recently arrived Sri Lankan youth have formed: EST (East Side Thugs); BNS; BNS Juniors; Tux Boys (Tuxedo Park); Tiger Boys; Gilders (Gilders Street). [Link]
<
p>
 |
|
The house is now largely destroyed |
The firebombing was part of an escalating series of retaliatory attacks, including one where Anandarajah was jumped by 12 students in the high school parking lot and knifed:
Touching his neck he says, “I don’t know how I got this scar. It happened after I was knocked out. They beat me up real bad. My mom couldn’t even recognize my face.” [Link]
<
p>One major beef between the groups is the use of the word FOB:
Frequently tossed around in the escalating feud between the groups is a loaded word, used to bully, label and shame. The mostly Tamil Sri Lankan youth around Scarborough who get called FOBs say the word is used as a weapon against them.
“It’s like calling a black man, n—–,” says a Grade 10 student. [Link]
<
p>Apparently, that name calling also played a role in the firebombing:
Anandarajah says it was older youths who were responsible for the attack on his house, most of whom either dropped out or have been expelled. “I understand why they’re angry, calling them FOBs. But they took it too far with this…” [Link]
<
p>The whole thing seems to be about being “square”. Recent immigrants say they get harassed for not fitting in:
… [Recent immigrants] say the tension begins in high school. They get harassed for playing cricket, having unfashionable hairdos, wearing tight-fitting shirts, too high pants and speaking Tamil. [Link]
<
p>Their Canadian born brethren seem to agree. Recent immigrants are just uncool:
“They can’t speak English, they have these weird haircuts,” says Chris, a Grade 12 student at nearby L’Amoreaux Collegiate. “The way they walk and they dress bad. It gives Sri Lankans a bad name, it’s embarrassing.”
One of them blurts out that they’re “fresh off the banana boat, they’re all FOBs, Tiger Boys, and they always will be…” The differences seem minor. Unless you’re in high school. “It’s stupid,” Anandarajah says. “But when we’re playing soccer, why do they have to come over and play cricket? We don’t play cricket here…” [Link]
So what say you? Is FOB a highly offensive term? What term would you prefer? NRI is both exclusionary (doesn’t apply here), and imprecise (to the Indian government I’m both an NRI and an ABD). Is there a different term that works better?
Would you start a fight if you got called a “FOB” ?
I just find the term funny, like it shows the insecurities of people who came up with / use it.
How long is the shelf life of a FOB? When do I get stale?
Recently in a suburb of Toronto (Oakville) a Tamil teen stabbed a Sikh teen to death. But apparently the Sikh teen was no angel either…before he was stabbed he was allegedly instigating others to fight. This took place at a party somewhere. The desi gang problems in Canada seem to be getting worse. What’s surprising from your post, Ennis, is that ‘FOB’ kids can form gangs so fast. And some of this is taking place in relatively nice, suburban areas.
Does it seem like that the desi gang problem is a much bigger problem in Canada and England then it is in the United States. I wonder if this has anything to do with the type of desi immigrants that go to Canada and England compare to the type that go to United States.
In the case of these kids, I would call them “Deported”
i think fob is a little derogatory, but not worth fighting over.
i think you graduate out of the fob label. i mean, seriously, how long can you be “fresh”?
i just had a conversation about this with a friend recently. i think the term gets less offensive the more mature you are. i don’t think it’s as harsh as the n word, but i can see how it can be offensive. conversely,i’ve spoken to quite a few recent immigrants who use the term in reference to themselves. i wouldn’t go around shouting it randomly to people who have “weird hair cuts” and high-waisted pants, just as i wouldn’t point and laugh at someone who is wearing a flannel shirt from the early 90s.
it’s the way you say words that make them loaded. i think subtleties matter more than anything else. but that’s an english teacher’s perspective 😉
—
I wonder if this has anything to do with the type of desi immigrants that go to Canada and England compare to the type that go to United States.
perhaps. and also, it seems that it is easier to live in an insulated brown world in these countries because of proportions, distribution, and to some extent ideology (state supported multiculturalism).
re: “FOB,” it is obvious how people could find it offensive, but, it is also pretty ridiculous to compare it to the “n-word.” people need to qualify that it might be a little bit like the “n-word” when they want to get across offensiveness, after all, blacks in america have a long history of oppression which new immigrants can’t “match.” let’s give the devil (oppression) his due.
Yes ,I find FOB offensive because it is offensive. No I would not fight anyone over it .
I prefer the term DBD( desh born desi) as its inclusionary.And I am fair – I use ABD when referring to the ‘other’
Worth a fight if it is used in a derogatory context.
Yeah it does.
To white people, we’re all FOBs.
I think an Indian person (irrespective of when he first arrived, calling another Indian person FOB (with the intent to impugn them as being “less” American”) is just plain stupid.
But I saw these tensions only arise during college (as thats when I first saw large groups of ‘FOBs’ and ‘ABCDs’ interact, and I’d imagine if they arose during high school, where “cool” has an entire different meaning, violence could erupt.
As for FOB being a slur, really, any word can be a slur if said in a dehumanizing way, like “Go back to India you fucking FOB” but does FOB have the history and legacy of the N-word? no not even close.
It depends on how one uses it. If it is used with the above sentiments it is offensive just like an occasional poster here on SM uses the word to attack the IBDs living here and their supposed ignorance about American culture and their inability to imitate them. But in most other contexts FOB is not an offensive word but a way to describe a set of desis.
I hope this song does not get popular in Canada or their streets will turn red!
You are an NRI and an ABD to the Indian government ? I’m a dual citizen, a legal US citizen (was born here) and I applied for “Indian Overseas Citizenship” and was accepted.. [link]http://www.indianembassy.org/newsite/oci.asp[/link]
I never thought the term was offensive. But it seems that some or a lot of people do. For me it’s just easier to not use the term. No use in offending anyone or hurting their feelings.
I would say FOB is offensive, even if it’s said teasingly (w/ good intentions) or jokingly. It’s definitely not on the same level as the n-word, but I’m not surprised that these guys got into a whole bunch of (seemingly) ridiculous violence because of it. Growing up I saw folks get jumped or get into gun fights over whether or not someone had “dissed” someone else. Sounds ridiculous, but I feel like gang-life has a totally different world view.
I also think it’s a little simplistic to blame the prevalance (sp?) of desi gangs in the UK/Canada on the “kinds” of immigrant communities found there. It would be interesting to compare, though, given that there are quite a few desi gangs in the U.S., too, but in my experience largely in poorer areas. Maybe it’s not so much where you came from, but socioeconomics, alienation, and where your family settles?
To white people, we’re all FOBs
Another great comment by HMF.
Expatriate
FOB is offensive in everyway, considering I never been on an Ocean Liner.
It’s very hard to find a name which is cool and inoffensive. Anyway, I’ll give it a try.
FOP-Fresh Out of Plane CoP-Cool Out of Plane CSA-Crisp South Asian
No offense to yo teenagers but if I know, some more slangs, then I can come up with few more.
‘FOB’ may not be as bad as the n-word, but is definitely not on the same scale as the counterpart insult ‘ABCD’. This might have to do with the way it is said .. ‘ABCD’ is pronounced ‘ay-bee-cee-dee’… ‘FOB’ is not pronounced ‘eff-o-bee’ , rather, it is ‘FOB!’ as in ‘you fob!’ … and can sound much more derogatory than ‘you ay-bee-cee-dee!’ (correct me if i’m wrong, ABDs)
Of course, a lot has to do with the context … the word ‘Indian’ in the sentence ‘Go back to where you came from, you freaking INDIAN’ can be worth a fight if you ask me ! Obviously, the fight was not just about the word ‘FOB’, but the condescending attitude that came accompanying that word…
Overall , I would definitely not put ‘ABCD’ and ‘FOB’ on the same levels … I would feel pretty insulted described/categorized/called a ‘FOB’.
@ennis : “What term would you prefer?”
IBD – Indian born Desi – has been widely used on this forum , and is pretty well known.
It’s funny, but I never thought of ‘FOB’ as a derogatory word. I still don’t think it is, actually, but as other people have said, it’s the context that is important. And I just love the song ‘drop it like a FOB’. 😉
In part, you’re having a moral panic about brown kids being in gangs. Some teenage urban men / boys will alway be attracted to gang culture. Some teenage urban men / boys will always get into fights. Desi youth getting into fights and occasionally stabbing each other is a sign of integration — into a certain strain of urban youth culture that has always been there, and is shared by white, black and other ethnicities. It stains the model minority narrative so people panic about it.
There has been Tamil gang activity in London for many years — Scotland Yard set up a special unit to deal with it and it has subsided but is still a problem, and the dynamic for that is much more to do with Tamil Tiger racketeering and the wounded and brutalised orphans and refugees of the civil war having serious social issues.
I think the most interesting thing to take from this story is not ‘what does this tell us about the scum who are allowed in to Canada and England as opposed to America’, which is really simplistic and uninteresting and fatuous, but how does this reflect the ‘pull-the-ladder-up’ syndrome of desis living in the West — ie: as soon as a community becomes established over a few generations and integrated, they start to become hostile to immigrants themselves. This is a definite phenomenon and not only towards ‘FOBs’ —- some desis in the UK, ensconsed in the middle class, are hostile to immigrants of any kind, especially Eastern Europeans. It’s hard to quantify, but it is a definite phenomenon amongst some desis I know, see, speak to, read of.
i have to agree, FOB is offensive. i know one person (american-born) who uses it as an insult to his other ABD friends – literally uses it in place of someting like ‘loser’ or ‘ass.’ i even had a fight with the director of american desi over his dismal portrayal of a character from india, only to be told that ‘in my experience, that’s how FOBs are.’ and last month when i told my parents’ friends that i would marry somebody born in india, they were very judgmental and tried to talk me out of it.
generally, i think if you are friends with people born in south asia, you have a tendency not to use the term FOB, because you realize how innaccurate and insulting it is. i think FOB is generally used by people that do not have, or do not seek to have, friends born in south asia.
Red Snapper, I love you 🙂
Randomizer, I think FOB and ABCD are equally offensive. And I’m with HMF, to “mainstream” America, all desis (and one can argue, API-Americans) are FOBs.
I disagree. I think the C part of it is more derogatory than the whole of FOB. Who gives one the right to call someone else confused?
Hate to say it but bunch of dumb fucking kids with too much time on their hands and no parents around to whoop their asses like my parents would have if I indulged in such dumfuckery. What the hell!!
Yup because the desi parents here would beat you and send you back to India if you tried that shit. And there are bigger and badder gangs here, a desi gangsta would only go so far as his own people, the other real gangstas would bust his ass. Wannabes!
These people who use the term FOB derisively — their parents and grandparents were once FOBs too, twitching, unsure, getting used to a new world. How soon people forget.
I see it like this —- those Tamil kids who feel anger at the new Tamils playing cricket feel ashamed because they remind them of the past from which their parents or grandparents sought to escape. Saving face is important to urban teenage men, being cool and having credibility in front of your peers and especially in front of ‘gangsters’ from other ethnic groups, who will use any opportunity they can to rip you and your people to shreds. FOBs let the side down in that urban macho environment.
If I were to refer to someone as ABCD or FOB to their face, yeah, it’s offensive, but it’s also in poor taste. So is starting a fight and/or firebombing a house over it, not to mention violent. Where’s all the anger coming from? That would be an avenue of social and legislative meditation, huh?
What term would I prefer for someone like me? Indian-American What term would I prefer for desis who just got here and are planning to stay a while? Indian-American (or if they prefer, Indian Living Abroad)
Where you live does become a part of your identity, like it or not. It behooves some acknowledgement.
Back @ ya Camille!
Offensive and sad. New immigrants sneering at newer immigrants.
Honestly I just say desi, as long as you are brown you are desi in my world, where you come from and how long you’ve been here makes no difference. You could be a LTOBFOB like me or someone born here, you brown you desi!
Check out Sri Lankan Tamil gang crime in London:
Tamil Gang Crime in London
This has to stop and the authorities need to do something.
JOAT – i am not sure it is as simplistic as you present it to be. i think socio-economics plays a big part – the kids in some of these areas may just be surrounded by more violence than in other neighbourhoods, and it is really hard to run away from such an environment altogether. plus, parents might not be around because they have to work longer hours or more jobs than their richer desi counterparts. i am not sure what the statistics of desis in canada are, but supposing they are closer to the desis of england, who are largely working class, than the desis of the US, who are largely professionals (of course, this does not apply to all desis of the relevant countries), you cannot overlook certain environmental factors that come into play. it would be highly unfair to blame it all on the parents, or for that matter, on the kids.
What’s the provenance of ABCD? Did it emerge in 1980s Bollywood as a critque of the allegedly deracinated 2gen? From what I understand native Chinese refer to second generation Americans somewhat derisively as “ABCs.” And FOB? I suspect that’s a term initially used by whites (akin to “boat people” and “banana republic”) – a term of scorn for Third Worlders who’ve made their way here, and thus much more generic.
I’m more curious as to why so many Indian “Gangs” have formed in Canada as opposed to the US. I know that there are more Sikh/Punjabi gangs in Vancouver but this is the first I heard about Tamil Gangs. As for FOB, it’s just a word, but humanity is stupid that way. What some find offensive some don’t.
@Red Snapper ” but how does this reflect the ‘pull-the-ladder-up’ syndrome of desis living in the West — ie: as soon as a community becomes established over a few generations and integrated, they start to become hostile to immigrants themselves. “
I think people become hostile to immigrants much, MUCH sooner than a few generations. I’m ‘fresh’ only by 2 years … give me a decade here and I am sure that I (and many others who came with me) will start cribbing about how many immigrants are coming to this nation. I know it doesn’t speak much of me, but that is the truth right there.
I think it all stems from the following: When we were back in India, the America that we had in our minds was that of a predominantly white, rich, luxurious country. We imagined we would be ‘away’ from many things Indian, especially the things we didn’t like back there- like the rat race, the nosiness into private lives, narrow-mindedness, and so on…
But when we stepped off the plane, we were invited into taxi cabs that were ALL desi, we reached college to find a community of 200-300 desis like us … everyone spoke hindi, ate rice/curry, and basically had the same attitudes like that back home. While many people like the fact that they don’t feel ‘out of place’ here, a very good number feel that they haven’t even traveled to a new country… and more and more immigrants will only make the ‘foreign’ country less foreign.
I think that is the single most important reason for this animosity towards immigrants, by immigrants .
You’re kidding right brownout? Toronto has set up special police units to deal with Tamil crime and Tamil gangs!
FOB is just like any other word used in a derogatory manner – it all depends on who uses it and how. When my ABD friends call me a FOB on my doing something fobby I don’t care because I know they are just kidding and in fact I even call them ABCD when something they do something ABCDish and it’s good . Even when an ABD I don’t know very well uses the term more out of habit and not out of malice, I usually don’t mind. But yeah, if an ABD used it as a form of insult(which so far has not happened to me personally) that may cause problems. Given a choice though I think most Fobs would prefer the use of DBD or IBD.
There was a huge influx of working class parents in the 70s and 80s from India, those are the people who worked in motels and had mom and pop shops and held down 3 jobs to send their kids to Harvard and Yale. Why didn’t any of us get into the gang culture even when we were exposed to it? I was petrified of my father! In the 90s there was a huge working class migration from Bangladesh into the US mostly north east and most of those kids are also good kids that are doing well. None of these were educated or middle class folks and their kids turned out fine.
I’m not disregarding all the factors nor am I saying that’s not possible but parental involvement even if your parent was doing 3 jobs and simple fear contributed to a lot of why my generation never got into that stuff. The pressure to succeed was perhaps higher on my generation being the first generation and we were lesser in numbers so we had to behave. Perhaps the the immigrant enclaves are denser now and they can afford the luxury of no pressure to succeed and can goof off and experience America like an American; I don’t know. All I know is no one in my generation I knew had the luxury to screw around like these kids. My dad would have broken my legs seriously.
And Scotland Yard has a special unit to deal with Tamil gang crime in London and has had some success.
JOAT, i am not denying that people in similar soci-economic circumstances reacted in different ways, but if you take those exact same circumstances and put them in a geographical location that already has gangs, which was not the case when we were growing up, but is definitely the case now, even in the states, the turnout might vary.
i think one reason for the gangs in canada (sikh and tamil) and in england (tamil) might have to do with the political aspects of the cultures from which they hail. for instance, are the sikhs in canada associated with khalistan-like movements? likewise, many of the tamils in canada and in london hail from sri lanka. so perhaps, there is some connection with the political fights of their cultures back home. but i do not know enough to go further than this -i would not be able to give a concrete reason to connect the two. and, anyway, i could be completely wrong about this possible connection.
There are Punjabi gangs in California and other South Asian gangs in NJ/NY but just not as prominent as their Canadian counterparts.
It seems like that South Asian youth who friends are other south asians are alot more likely to join gangs, then south asian kids who have mostly non south asian friends.
Seems like these kids could care less what they were called. Every culture/society has a label for outsiders. Gaijin in Japan; Auslaender here in Germany. These kids seemed to have a rivalry for far more basic reasons, like perhaps privileged vs. under-privileged.
Hate to say it but bunch of dumb fucking kids with too much time on their hands and no parents around to whoop their asses like my parents would have if I indulged in such dumfuckery. What the hell!!
lol!
Seriously, I don’t think in the US of the 70s that there was a large working class contingent. The immigration laws at the at time only allowed professionals. Now the laws are changing and we do have much more working class desis in the US.
I always noticed the difference in South Asian communities in US and when I visited England. My aunt lives in Birmingham area, and when I’d visit, I noticed groups of kids hanging out by the cornershop together, laughing and talking, wearing baggy clothes…Here in the US, growing up in the South mostly I met preppy, pre-med kids — preparing for a life such as the shopaholic in the other article.
It is well known, but it’s not inclusive. I can’t really use it to describe the people in this story, for example. DBD – Desh Born Desi? SBD – Subcontinent Born Desi? FSC – from someother country?
I’d just like to say that the kids they quoted in the article sound terribly insensitive. Saying that “FOBs” are embarassing to Sri Lankans b/c they are unstylish and speak Tamil? Easy to say for someone who lives in their birth country and probably has more money to afford the righ haircuts and clothing….And the cricket thing was utterly ridiculous.
I wonder if perhaps the anti-FOB animosity stems from fear that the so-called FOBs will accentuate the otherness of desis in general in the eyes of non-desis and undermine the Canadian/American-born’s attempts to fit in? Does anyone know of similar conflictsd in other immigrant groups?
Rabia:
I don’t think these led to inter-community violence along CBD-FOB lines though.
i think this video is much more offensive… and its got some horrible lyrics too. snoop fobb and 50 rupee i just found the flag bit offensive. everything else i didn’t care about. like chris rock said. there’s black people and then there’s niggas. i’ll just say that there’s indians(abd or ibd) and there’s abcds/fobs. and both tend to be pretty obnoxious when taken to extremes.