When you next encounter everything-comes-from-India Auntie or Uncle, you can turn their fixation to your advantage.
Beti: Auntieji, you know, there is another area where India was ahead of the rest of the world.
Auntie: Yes, beti?
Beti: And it was mentioned in the Vedas, ages before any western source mentioned it.
Auntie: Yes yes, that is how it always is. What area of scientific advancement are you talking?
Beti: Auntieji, I am referring to kissing. Snogging. Mouth Mashing. Tonsil Field Hockeying. Two desis each kissing the apple sequentially in a Bollywood movie, except there is no apple and there was no Bollywood.
Auntie: Hai Ram! Chi!
Beti: But it’s in the Vedas, Auntieji! The very first written references to kissing. It was written about, in Sanskrit, long before it was written anywhere else! How can it be a bad thing then?
Unsurprisingly, this news isn’t something that is coming out of a BJP research center, it’s coming from Texas A&M University anthropologist Vaughn Bryant who says:
The earliest written record of humans’ kissing appears in Vedic Sanskrit texts — in India — from around 1500 B.C., where certain passages refer to lovers “setting mouth to mouth,” [Link]“References to kissing did not appear until 1500 BC when historians found four major texts in Vedic Sanskrit literature of India that suggested an early form of kissing. There are references to the custom of rubbing and pressing noses together. This practice, it is recorded, was a sign of affection, especially between lovers. This is not kissing as we know it today, but we believe it may have been its earliest beginning. About 500 to 1,000 years later, the epic Mahabharata, contained references suggesting that affection between people was expressed by lip kissing. Later, the Kama Sutra, a classic text on erotica, contained many examples of erotic kissing and kissing techniques.” [Link]
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p>Of course, for all I know, teenagers were arrested for kissing in public then too 
More than 100 couples were arrested in Mumbai for being found by police in “objectionable positions,” including kissing and holding hands. “We have no objection to them sitting and talking but kissing and other things, of which I cannot speak, are not. They can hire a room. This is India, not England,” said retired government officer Ramesh Dhatrak, 65. [Link]
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p>Personally, I think everybody should chill out and have some dark chocolate, despite the objections of some. Chocolate, while Indian, did not originally come from the subcontinent. Maybe these puritans are really proponents of foreign things over domestic .
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p>Related posts: Do Not Touch!, Delhi sex clip portends sexual revolution? Everyone’s having sex except you the youths! they are having the SEX! No sex please, we’re Indian, Might as well be hanged for a sheep as for a lamb, ShameShame! Paint a Vulgar Picture, Shilpa.
Kissing is probably a basic human behavior that goes back a VERY long time…I find it hard to believe it only came about in the last 2 or 3 thousand years…although in terms of literary references, maybe the evolution (of the references) is as described above.
I don’t get why you can be arrested for showing affection in public in India but it is ok in indian movies ? Doesn’t make any sense to me.. So the laws are saying one thing and the popular culture is saying something else ?
Amitabh, you’re right, it’s just the writing about kissing where India was first:
But everything comes from India types usually think that if something was written about in India before anywhere else, it must have originated there too.
Does anybody have a reference to these verses – either the original Sanskrit texts or the Mahabharata? I would like to know what exactly they say.
HehEEE! Good one, Ennis. Of course with desis it’s all about dikhava/face/not admitting you do things in public.
But it would be fun to see someone make the Kissing is an Ancient Indian Tradition argument to the judge in the Shilpa Shetty-Richard Gere case.
Let’s differentiate between kissing and kissing in public. Indians kiss as readily in amorous situations as anybody else. The debate is about doing the same in public. But public display of affection between the sexes is simply not a part of Indian and other Eastern cultures. There is nothing wrong with that.
Very cool..So French Kiss also originated in India too?
Bien sûr! A Pondichéry, pour être plus précis.
yay we’re #1 again. that’s vedic ingenuity at work. now the question is which country had the first cunning linguist.
and now you can see why my parents had to spank me in the middle of bal vihar when i was little.
The generation gap in India is as wide as ever … and politicians/moral police know that they are losing the war. Just a decade ago, Valentine’s day was unheard of back home . By 2000-2001, marketing companies started publicizing it for selling their products … and the Shiv Sena ( extra conservative group in Maharashtra ) burnt Valentine’s Day cards, they harassed couples, they stormed private parties and so on.
But nowadays, Valentine’s WEEK is celebrated without any problem … and in places like Bangalore, you see couples hanging out very comfortably everywhere . I am more than confident that once our generation reaches their 30’s and 40’s , we will be seeing a whole lot of changes … including a growing tolerance to public displays of affection…
You can get arrested precisely because it’s ok in the movies. In India, cinema is not a reflection of reality, rather a complete escapist departure from it.
Bingo. I said the same thing when people said Sanskrit texts had references to homosexuality.
Some ethologists believe that kissing came from mothers transferring chewed food to their babies (kiss-feeding).
But public display of affection between the sexes is simply not a part of Indian and other Eastern cultures.
sure, in general. and it probably differs from culture to culture, and varies over time. i think the overall issue that ennis is pointing to is that many ‘traditionalists’ lack perspective about the fluidity of their own customs and norms. as a canonical example, the fez was introduced into turkish culture from balkan christians and was part of a ‘modernizing’ trend. by ataturk’s time it was a fundamental aspect of turkish identification and hallowed by ‘traditionalists.’
Oh, Ennis.
“Kissing the apple…” hee hee. That sounds dirty! Although I think we all agree that luscious mangoes are much better.
This is what I found after five minutes of googling.
“Around 1200 B.C., Bryant says, in a portion of the Satapatha Brahmana, a prose text describing Vedic rituals, some passages talk of lovers “setting mouth to mouth� and also of a man who states of his beloved slave woman that he loves “drinking the moisture of the lips.� Whereas earlier passages simply implied kissing, this explicitly talks about it. In the “Mahabharata,� different ways of kissing were established to express affection, according to Bryant. Certain passages refer to how ” she set her mouth to my mouth and made a noise and that produced pleasure in me. (Mahabharata 3. 112. 12)� There are also further mentions of setting “mouth to mouth.�
“It is not until the close of the Vedic period, some centuries before this period that we find any mention of kissing” found here, a history of ‘sniff kissing’ that preceded the kissing we know today. I recommend going to this paper that traces the history of kissin: passages and verses are sited here.
darn, Amitabh in #1 and Ennis in #3 already wrote the first thing I thought of when I read this post. I think while we may be able to claim that we were the first document it, it definitely does not mean it was not done before. For all we know the Adams apple is just some left over infected salvia courtesy the serpent transferred by Eve.
I apologize for the atrocious formating above.
OK. But those of us who would like to see some protection of individual liberties find it ridiculous that this argument can be used to bar a consensual act between two parties. This is why I am against Hindutva even though I am sympathetic to some of the grievances that drive people towards this atavistic vision of society. I would hope that the police, who at the end of the day have finite bandwidth, would choose to spend their time dealing with “eve teasing”, coerced prostitution, violent crime ec.
You: But Uncle, kissing is part of Indian culture! How can it be wrong?
Uncle: Censorship – Indian!
;-P
HMF – I take no position on its content, but here is a link to a wiki page concerning Homosexuality and Hinduism. In there they make specific references to texts.
True, but that very page says the Vedas make no direct references, rather acknowledgement.
Here is a translation of the verses from the Mahabharata :
And his two eyes seemed to be covered with wonderful Chakravaka birds of an exceedingly beautiful form. And he carried upon his right palm a wonderful globur fruit, which reaches the ground and again and again leaps up to the sky in a strange way. And he beats it and turns himself round and whirls like a tree moved by the breeze. And when I looked at him, O father! he seemed to be a son of the celestials, and my joy was extreme, and my pleasure unbounded. And he clasped my body, took hold of my matted hair, and bent down my mouth, and, mingling his mouth with my own, uttered a sound that was exceedingly pleasant. And he doth not care for water for washing his feet, nor for those fruits offered by me; and he told me that such was the religious observance practised by him. And he gave unto me a number of fruits. Those fruits were tasteful unto me: these here are not equal to them in taste.
It reminds me of some of the passages from the Song of Songs in the Old Testament, for instance, the lines that start with “Arise, my beloved”. Some very beautiful lines with a lot of natural imagery.
HMF – I really know next to nothing about the topic, but doesn’t the Mahabharata or the Padma Purana count as a Sanskrit text? That was the language you used earlier. I’m not trying to argue here at all.
I remember those verses well, they are from C. Rajagopalachari’s translation of the Mahabharata from the original Sanskrit. This passage narrates Rishyashringa’s encounter with a celestial nymph, and his narration of the same to his father. The ascetic Rishyashringa has never seen a woman in his life and he thinks the nymph is a very beautiful boy.
Of course, the Mahabharata is not as old as the Vedas, and hence does not matter here. Nonetheless, I recommend Rajagopalachari’s translation to everyone here. It reads beautifully, almost like poetry.
@ DDiA (#25) : I remember those verses well, they are from C. Rajagopalachari’s translation of the Mahabharata from the original Sanskrit. The verses are from the translation of the Mahabharata by Kisari Mohan Ganguli.
Of course, the Mahabharata is not as old as the Vedas, and hence does not matter here. Nonetheless, I recommend Rajagopalachari’s translation to everyone here. There are issues of religion here as well.
Sure, I agree with you, the Sanskrit texts do acknowledge these topics. In fact what’s said about the Mahabharata is:
“”What is found here, may be found elsewhere. What is not found here, will not be found elsewhere.” “
So homosexuality, kissing, etc.. are all aspects of humanity, and there’s no surprise that references are made to it in the MBH, however, I’m always unclear as to what the big deal is, and the intent of making the declaration. Why is it news? That we should all be kissing each other because the MBH and Vedas say it? The Vedas also say to leave the home and go to gurukula by age 7. Do we do that?
14 “i think the overall issue that ennis is pointing to is that many ‘traditionalists’ lack perspective about the fluidity of their own customs and norms.”
Some customs are fluid, some are impervious to change. I don’t know how fluid the Indian society’s public kissing practices, or the lack thereof, will be over time. I have spent a lot of time in Hong Kong, an Asian society that is: a)entirely urban, b)economically no longer third world (future India?), c)fully accepting of western culture. Yet the Hong Kong Chinese do not kiss on the streets. You see some stolen kisses here and there, as you also would in Mumbai and Delhi, but certainly not at par with the west.
19 “This is why I am against Hindutva even though I am sympathetic to some of the grievances that drive people towards this atavistic vision of society.”
The only thing that drives people to any atavistic vision of society, be it Hindutva or jihadi terrorism, is the pursuit of power. Religion is a very reliable tool to “rabble rouse” people into following you blindly, and making physical display of affection anti-Hindu is nothing but clever politics, dirty as it may be.
Kissing in public is not a morality issue, in my opinion. I am interested in it purely as a cultural phenomenon. There must be deep seated cultural reasons, beyond a simplistic sexual repression often associated with India, why it is a rarity in India and other Asian societies. I wouldn’t look too deeply in Hinduism for an answer. I am very familiar with Indo-Caribbean Hindus, most of them fairly staunch, including your auntie. However, in their culture, public kissing is not only acceptable but kissing total strangers as a part of greeting Latino style is actually expected. It is obviously a learned behavior, which is surprising considering most of the islands with Indian population were British colonies, not Spanish. Go figure!
Would somebody please write a thoroughly researched treatise on this very important subject?
HMF – I’m put in the odd position of defending people I don’t know. Still, as I understood it, they’re trying to make two points, although I could be wrong:
Still, it’s all guesswork on my part, so this is the last comment I’ll leave on the topic. I’m neither Hindu nor Gay, so I haven’t been privy to this debate.
Indians are like pandas. We can’t do it if someone’s watching.
Rajaji’s translation is very easy to read and fun for a quick summary. Unfortunately, it’s not detailed. This passage, for instance, is too detailed for it. He also throws in some preaching from time to time.
I was never a great fan of Rajaji’s translation either. I have heard good things about R.K. Narayan’s retelling. If you have the stomach and the hindi for it, I’d strongly recommend Narendra Kohli’s 7-volume Mahasamar.
I have a hard time believing that public displays of affection were never part of Indian life, given the explicitness in so many temples, in Sanskrit poetry and drama, in the epics etc. ‘Indian culture’ seemed to once have a healthy respect for the body and for sexuality. Is it a coincidence that the tools the Hindu fundies are using (ie the Obscenity Act) are British laws long since discarded by the British? At the risk of sounding like Everything-bad-came-from-the-British Aunty, I’d suggest that Indian society is still recovering from the contempt shown to it by a pathologically uptight Victorian England.
The next time someone tries to pull the “it’s not in our culture” bit, simply refer them to the story in the Padma Purana in which Arjuna (in a female form named Arjuni) faints at the sight of Krishna’s dangly bits, and the two proceed to get it on. Apparently as the story goes, Arjuna gets thoroughly depressed at the thought of having to turn back into a man, so Krishna tells him that the only way it can continue is if Arjuna shuts up about it, since their oh-so-harsh world will never understand.
I’m still planning on using that one of these days.
DQ, I tend to think that the British Raj didn’t make too much of an impact on Indian culture, especially at the village level. I think the 1000 years of Muslim rule before that made a bigger impact. But I also wouldn’t be surprised if indigenous Indian culture even before Islam’s arrival had conservative elements too (existing alongside the sexual temple art, romantic Sanskrit plays, the epics, Kama Sutra, etc). And I think as far as PDA is concerned, while of course it shouldn’t be harassed in India the way it is, it boils down to respect…how many of us would openly french-kiss our significant other in front of our parents? I think I’ve mentioned this before but there are times in NYC when I haven’t made out with my date in a taxi because the driver would be an older desi dude. In fact, at the risk of revealing too much info, I’m currently dating a caucasian woman, and whenever I’ve been dragged to her parents’ house, I’ve kept my hands off, and haven’t so much as kissed her…even though gora culture has no such expectations. In fact her mom was kind of perplexed by that, apparently. I guess next time, I’ll kiss her daughter in front of her, if that makes her more comfortable. But what you do in private, and how you behave in public, can be two different things.
PS DQ, I still remember that beautiful Bengali couplet you shared a long time ago. Can you quote it again? Something about ami ek jojobar, bhulechi nijjher ghar?
Right. All except the Victorian part– it’s still going on.
lowe,
Everything-bad-came-from-the-British Aunty
Agree with Ennis’ points (#1 and #2 in comment #29). The point of first mention of kissing might be of interest only to academics, and it might not add very much new to what we know. There are also various other mentions in the classical texts about sexuality : the menstrual cycle (e.g. in the Draupadi vastraharanam episode), the attraction of hetero men to women’s breasts, homosexuality, etc. There is a strong tradition in Hinduism of accepting truth from multiple sources of origin, and of moving ‘towards truth’ (‘asathoma sadgamaya’). As various aspects of human sexuality such as homosexuality become clear, it is clear that some opinions at the intersection of religion and sexuality need to revised.
In scale, these mentions are only a small part of the story. The epics are about the overall Indian experience of empire.
Weren’t the major parts of the Vedas written outside India?
Weren’t the major parts of the Vedas written outside India? Yes, they are believed to have been composed in Central Asia. There are however no mention of elephants (Indian) but there are mentions of horses (Central Asian). It is believed that the memory of the migration was lost byt the time they were composed. In any case, Indian culture, specifically Indian Hindu culture, is quite highly influenced by the Vedas and other Sanskritic texts.
That should have been : ‘They are believed to have been composed by people from Central Asia, but composed in India.’
Indians kiss as readily in amorous situations as anybody else
How do you know that? Is there any study done in India to back this up?
Two desis each kissing the apple sequentially in a Bollywood movie, except there is no apple and there was no Bollywood.
Heh. This has been an Indian tradition, long before Bollywood thought of it. Traditional Indian weddings featured the bride and groom sharing paan…their first introduction to the possibility of the kiss. Seems silly, but then again, people got married when they were 10 back in the day. The groom was probably still in the “girls have cooties” phase.
ho ho ho … time for another PIL … this time it’s mr. bryant who has earned the honors … i bet there are some people sitting in their armchairs trying to trash out a reason to file a PIL … defaming of indian culture, blah blah …
See this is my point, I really fail to see how stories like this cannot co-exist with homosexuality/PDA being downplayed in our culture? The Mahabharata also has a story where a village boy becomes one of the best archers in the land, and then cuts his own thumb off so the one with “royal blood” can retain best archer title. Do we go around cutting our thumbs off?
As Joseph Campbell says, these myths and sacred stories are metaphors and can be interpreted in a myriad of ways.
There is much conjecture around this, but no actual fact. Barring any proof or even circumstantial evidence, we must assume as Shankar says that they were composed in India. As to the origins of the people who composed them, there is also no solid picture.
I think ABCDs should not be allowed to write about India unless they have stayed in India for 10 years.
If we stayed there that long, we wouldn’t want to write about India, we’d only want to hop on one foot and alternate the foot we’re hopping on.
Ummmm.. so let me get this straight
Some guy actually makes money, from a university moreso, for researching the history of kissing??
I really can’t decide whether he is a loser or not!
I don’t think Indian immigrants in the US who hail from urban backgrounds should be allowed to write about life in rural India. What’s your point
I think it’s interesting to study the origins of such a wide spread practice. Don’t you prefer the environment here where we have the surplus necessary to engage in this kind of research over India where only the wealthy who don’t need to find employment can pursue a humanities education ?
I really can’t decide whether he is a loser or not!
Why a loser? It seems perfectly logical for an anthropology researcher to concern himself with social customs, including kissing.