A tip about this photograph was posted on our News tab a few hours ago by “namantra” under the title Dehli ad on Metro. It was their description of the link which interested me:
The same country that often frowns down upon public displays of affection has billboards that openly use curse words.
I must say, I was slightly surprised to see one of my favorite blue words gettin’ dropped so blatantly, but I know nothing about advertising in the Motherland. Does this ad signal a coarsening of Indian culture? Or did it not raise the threaded eyebrows of those of you who are familiar with such things? And are we comparing jack fruit with ambarellas; does one have nothing to do with the other?
…You’re trying to have your cake and eat it too, in the argument, and nobody can do that.
kyon ji, france ki rani ni kehndi, puttar cake kha le? Waise actually kya hai ji, doctor ne bola hai ki cake me zyaada chlaastrol hota hai, to isliye ham aajkal cake nahin khaate. Apne heppy burdday par bhi nahin. Jo ki hum Satcherday ko manaa rahe hain.
Why I am trying to have my cake and eat it too, btw?
Sloppy formating in my previous post. Corrected form:
Oh come on, you admit there’s no such thing as ‘getting’ India, concede that accident of birth is irrelevant, and then you say that it’s disingenuous to pretend that where you were born makes no difference, etc. (I’m paraphrasing) You want to be on both sides of this, and nobody can do that indefinitely. And the excerpt from the woman who returned to India – makes a different point entirely from the one you wanted it to make for you – when Salil pointed that out, you conceded his point, not realizing that undercuts your original point.
I fully concede your power over words. I said that at the beginning, and say that again. Just because you can say something well, however, does not mean you always have something good or relevant to say. I also concede your tenacity, you keep coming back, and this time with a new rhetorical style. This level of creativity deserves some applause. But that’s it, and that’s all from me on this.
And slightly OT – thanks for helping ID that building 🙂 By your description, that should then be the Tilak Marg crossing. You may be right, on the other hand, it could also be the Jhandewalan office complex that ‘brown’ suggested. Thanks all!
I get what you are saying. That is exactly how I feel when I talk to a few IBD’s. I am better off with the Woddup than the Enna Mapplai. And just like you, I seem to get along better with everyone else.
This is another theory. There is also the theory that it was everyday life that was depicted. Another theory, if I remember right had to do with the fact that you attain Nirvana, you had to get over such things.
People have spent entire life times researching and theorizing this, I doubt that the answer is as simple.
huh?
And for everyone who did not understand this
Why ji, Frances queen said, son eat your cake. Actually, the doc said that cake has a lot of cholesterol. This is the reason I do not eat cake. Not even on my birthday. Which we are going to celebrate on Saturday.
So I got the translation, but still did not get the point.
Madison (#178), like I said I wasn’t endorsing the views aired in the video. But the song was expressing the frustrations that many people feel. Better to address the underlying structural problems (or at least listen) than turn a blind eye. I agree this wasn’t the thread to discuss that video. For that I apologise. You do make some valid points. Lyrically the song is not the strongest, however it makes a very bold political statement at a time when not many are making them. Stuff like that can get you arrested. If the video is allowed to air, and the artist stays out of trouble, then that means maybe India is becoming a mature democracy which tolerates dissent. Also, if they allowed themselves, I’m sure that there are hundreds of millions in India who could relate to that song on some level or another…anyone who is disgusted with India’s government for whatever reason, and anyone who feels exploited there. Anyway why don’t we leave this here and focus on the rest of this crazy discussion. Peace.
Anna ,
I think you are justified in believing that you face criticism because of misogyny but PG does not face criticism because of misogyny but because her comments are usually obnoxious and offensive
How can it be a shot in the dark when the facts of pornographic carvings in some temples, and of temple prostitution (devadasism) in hinduism are well known? Its simply putting two and two together.
Besides displaying your obvious and pathological hatred of Brahmins ( you sound like a Dravidianist more than a Khalistani) your pathetic conjecture has no basis in facts. There are 63 agama shastras devoted to the proper rules for building a temple. I’d like for you to provide one shred of evidence to back up your statement. Or do you belong to the Wendy Doniger School of thought, where a cigar is usually more than what it seems 🙂
Kalavai,
Don’t waste your time on this crappy media-whore forum.
Why dont you point us to the shastra that describes the sexual positions that should be carved on temple walls?
The evidence is the existence of such pornography on some hindu temples, and the well-known practice of temple prostitution in brahminism. How do you reconcile porn and prostitution with religion?
http://www.erces.com/journal/articles/actuel/v03.htm
“The Devadasi system has a significant place in the history of prostitution in India. The term Devadasi literally means servants (slaves) of God and perhaps originally denoted a class of women who gave themselves to a life of religious service and austerities. These devadasis who were not supposed enter the bond of matrimony often functioned as temple singers, dancers, concubines and prostitutes. The term Devadasi became a euphemistic way of referring to women prostituting in the name of religion (Lall, 1968).
The Devadasi system was set up, according to a Times of India report (10-11-1987) as a result of a conspiracy between the feudal class and the priests. The latter, with their ideological and religious hold over the peasants and craftsmen, devised a means that gave prostitution their religious sanction.”
“They noted in their study on -“Devadasis – the link between religious culture and child prostitution“. The study revealed that girls from poor families are married to God Krishna and are sold after puberty at private auctions to a high caste master who initially pays a sum of money to the families ranging from Indian Rupees 500/- to 5,000/-.The study, made during health camps organized by the World Health Organization (WHO) in the Devadasi populated areas, revealed that the dedicated girls formed 15 percent of the total women involved in prostitution in the country, and as much as 70 percent to 80 percent of the prostitutes in the border districts of Karnataka and Maharashtra
The devadasi tradition, still prevalent in many parts of India, continues to legitimize child prostitution.”
Dont you find this shameful and wicked?
210 Prema
Ok there are two points here. The devdasi tradition which over time devolved into prostitution under the guise of religious necessity is indeed shameful and deplorable. It’s one of those things where religion was used to further other ends and I am not disputing that.
What you are saying is that the existence of the devadasi tradition and erotic sculptures in temples almost proves that they both went hand in hand and that the sculptures somehow validated the prostitution or vice versa. I think there is a flaw in your logic, at best it’s a possibility that the two might be linked but there is a very good possibility that they might not be. Your argument is a case of guilty till proven innocent. Unless you can provide some references that do indeed show the cause/effect or dependence between the two, your argument is but a shot in the dark, possibly even colored by your prejudices.
3.And thus, this can mean that even when we don’t realise it, our cultural ‘axes’, or ‘frames of reference’, can enter into our perception of things which may seem entirely reasonable to us but may strike other people, with other ‘parameters’, as unreasonable. Much of this ABD/IBD shebang, in my opinion, arises from this: two sets of people with somewhat different perspectives, each convinced that ‘they get it’ (on which see 1), squabbling.
That’s all I am saying. According to Chachaji, I am trying to be on both sides of the argument: I am not. I am merely pointing out that the two so-called ‘sides’ are not as clear or black-and-white as some here seem to make them out to be: if you think in clear-cut, mutual;ly exclusive categories, my arguments will not make sense. The alternative to ‘getting it completely’ (which I agree is impossible) is not ‘not getting it at all’. Thus, the SMK article from Mint, not all of which I ‘subscribe to’, was offered up as an instance where someone felt that her background impacted her response to a particular situation, whereas I was pointing out that I felt what was equally noteworthy was that the response to her response was also driven by the particularities of her listeners’ background. That’s all. Salil merely backed up my point when I defended the author’s bonafides against Pondatti’s ranting. So, frankly, I don’t know what you’re talking about, but that’s okay. The opposite also obviously applies.
As for the random interlude in faux-Punj, that was just my Rajinder Nagar Aunty alrter ego speaking. She likes to jump in, sometimes. Her name is Mrs. Sapna Malhotra.
Floridian – some good points in 189. I too find it heartening that the second generation is full of spunk, has a voice, and makes themselves heard. There’s the other side of the picture too and that’s all I was trying to point out. After all, if someone ceaselessly reminds us that they are american, surely they can stop and reflect that many of those adjectives commonly associated with Americans would apply to them?
Also, I rarely see social problems within the SA community in the US discussed. That might be hitting too close to home, I suppose. Taking pot shots at India is fine and places them squarely on the moral high ground. Why pontificate on tribals and villagers in India? Here’s where the condenscension comes in. They want tribals to have electricity it seems, and love marriages, and some type of education. Wow. Tribal areas are by definition rugged but it’s no use even beginning to explain what being a tribal means. Let’s burn down the Amazon and educate the savages. Meanwhile when some people try and discuss the backwardness of indian communities in the US, they are told to stop hating and love diversity and the stinking curry. I hate the smell of curry but that just means I’m a bigot I suppose.
divya. pl elaborate…
Divya, you should have stopped while you were ahead, i.e. after your first paragraph. Your second is barely worth addressing. There is plenty of introspection on this site and your generalizations are cartoonish. For example:
No one has ever told anyone what you allege in the first sentence and your second sentence is nonsensical and irrelevant.
Puliogre in da USA – well, there are people who comment about the lack of integration/assimilation of certain indian communities in the US. I’ve never seen such matters explored in any kind of way. Also there are many in the south asian community who have alcohol and substance abuse issues. These people have almost no recourse, the problem remains invisible and undiscussed. This problem affects the youth as well as their parents. Elder abuse/neglect by second genners is another US issue that comes to mind. A discussion of such matters would reflect the moral laxity of the second generation in the same way that poverty, lack of education etc. is supposed to reflect the moral laxity of all Indians.
Bullshit expert – sorry my second para disappoints. But it’s true. it’s taboo to hate on the smell of curry (which I genuinely hate). People who hate the smell of curry are described as bigoted. Was just trying to say that trivial issues are defended with the utmost gusto. But you’re right. Perhaps I shouldn’t have addressed this trivial issue at all.
This thread is getting stranger and stranger.
Ardy #211,
You will wait forever for shastric or even inscriptional evidence from the likes of Prema. They tend to be long on hateful anti-Brahmin rhetoric but short (shorter than your typical Donigerian cigar) on facts.
Its also interesting that her type will ignore the pederast driven western Catholic priesthood when condemning religious traditions or even entertain the idea that the harem and nauch culture of Mohammedan India (since they ruled for 1000 years) might have anything to do with Bollywood decadence. Instead it will always be the stock-figure “evil Brahmin” to blame for all India’s ills. The Devadasi system must be condemned of course, but ignoring the ignoble role of Upper Caste non Brahmin landlords and chieftans is seethingly disingenous.
I wrote that I “strongly suspect” a connection between the pornographic temple sculptures and the brahminical practice of temple prostitution; not that I had “almost proved” it. There is no denying that porn and prostitution go hand in hand.
On the other hand its illogical to claim that porn and prostitution are somehow conducive to spiritual detachment. They feed the fires of sexual passion, not curb it.
Thats funny. I asked you which Shastra describes the sexual positions that should be carved on temple walls. We are still waiting for your answer
For your information, there is nothing islamic about the nautch culture per se. It is of indigenous hindu origin. The very word nautch has a hindu etymology. This is from a brahminical source:
Devadasis->nautch girls
“The dasis fell prey to degraded princes and unwanted company. They became known as ‘nautch girls’ and were purchased like prostitutes. No self-respecting family was anxious any longer to give a daughter in charity to the temple in order to have her educated in dasi-attam.”
“By the persisting pressure of the British lobby against the devasasis the Indian Government eventually launched the Anti-Nautch Act, 1947. The Act not only terminated the entire caste of devadasis, but also the last brahminical profession discharged by the Indian woman.”
What part of “The Devadasi system was set up, according to a Times of India report (10-11-1987) as a result of a conspiracy between the feudal class and the priests.” couldn’t you follow? Of course the brahmins were catering, as usual, to those who had money and power, out of greed. Your “seething”, if it is intellectually and morally honest, should be directed at the priestly caste who provided religious sanction to such abominable practices as temple prostitution of children, child marriage, widow burning, untouchability, caste apartheid etc. Non-brahmins had no authority in this regard.
With porn and prostitution, generally speaking, there is no “samsar”, or the setting up of house, home, family, endless entanglements trying to educate your kids and bring them up in a prosperous way.
From someone who spend years in and around religious groups where celibacy and detachment from “samsar” is regarded as highly valuable, I can see logically how a few visits to a prostitute or a few porn mags are indeed alot less entangling than getting married, having babies and setting up hearth and home in an expensive and very entangling modern day world.
No strings attached = no entanglement eh?
For your information, there is nothing islamic about the nautch culture per se.
Nonsense. From wikipedia, since this seems to be as authoritative as you’re capable of getting with references 🙂
Nautch, a word used in several languages of North India, is an Indian term for “dance”, and indicates several forms of popular dancing styles by young girls, generally called the Nautch girls. The culture of the performing art of Nautch rose to prominence during the later period of Mughal Empire, and the Company Rule. Over a period of time, the Nautch traveled outside the confines of the Imperial courts of the Mughals, the palaces of the Nawabs and the Princely states, and the higher echelons of the officials of the British Raj, to the places of relatively smaller Zamindars, and other places.
Some references use the terms Nautch and Nautch girls to describe Devadasis who used to perform Hindu ritual and religious dances in the Hindu temples of India. However, there is not much commonality between the Devadasis and the Nautch girls.
Bollywood was started mainly be Punjabis and other North Indians, but I suppose in some miracle of brahminism, the mainly southern devadasi system inspired them and their dancing girls. 😉
Of course the brahmins were catering, as usual, to those who had money and power, out of greed. Your “seething”, if it is intellectually and morally honest, should be directed at the priestly caste who provided religious sanction to such abominable practices as temple prostitution of children, child marriage, widow burning, untouchability, caste apartheid etc. Non-brahmins had no authority in this regard.
Caste apartheid has been imposed mainly by feudal castes. Tamil OBCs like yourself have been brazenly discriminatory towards Dalits, and continue to be so, but rather than look to your own prejudices, you continue to blame brahmins, most of whom have long left Tamil Nadu. Temples were built by kings, and the principal ‘benefactors’ of the devadasi system have always been rich shudras. Now I know what you’re going to say. Who taught the shudras this? Were you really so dumb and inferior in intelligence to Brahmins that you would allow them full authority? Perhaps you were, but I highly doubt it. I think you were the prime players and benefactors of oppression, and continue to be so today. Blaming brahmins is a bogeyman.
Dumb and brazenly dishonest. I gave you a brahminical source, not wikipedia (which is susceptible to disinformation by apologists for casteism such as yourself):
The Anti_Nautch Act was targeted not against muslim culture but against the brahminical profession of devadasis aka temple dancers/prostitutes.
The virginity of the devadasis was, and still is, sold to the highest upper caste bidder. Once again, what part of “The Devadasi system was set up, according to a Times of India report (10-11-1987) as a result of a conspiracy between the feudal class and the priests.” couldn’t you follow?
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,978725-2,00.html
“In India children command a price three times that of older women, in part because of a common belief that sex with a virgin or a child cures venereal disease. “Having sex with children provides a greater sexual thrill to many men,” explains I.S. Gilada, secretary-general of the Bombay-based Indian Health Organization. “They find it more titillating, and it gives them an added sense of power.” To feed the sex market, tens of thousands of girls as young as 12 are recruited in Bombay and other cities; many are devadasis, “slaves of god,” a distorted legacy of a 7th century religious practice in which girls were dedicated to temples for lives of dance and prayer. Today the girls pledge fealty to the goddess Renuka at puberty and then — with the full knowledge of their parents — are shunted off to brothels.
Try this version: “Who taught the brahmins this? Were you really so dumb and inferior in intelligence to muslims and the british that you would allow them full authority?”. Whats your answer?
Anna, no I’m reasonably well-informed by a myriad of other sources. It’s because I love your posts…and sheesh, if you have to know, you’re growing on me, too… That’s what keeps me coming back! Honest!
Also loved these:
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Dumb and brazenly dishonest. I gave you a brahminical source, not wikipedia (which is susceptible to disinformation by apologists for casteism such as yourself):
What a laugh. In the majority of the posts you offer references for, you cite to wikipedia. How pathetic are you going to get tonight 🙂
To feed the sex market, tens of thousands of girls as young as 12 are recruited in Bombay and other cities; many are devadasis, “slaves of god,” a distorted legacy of a 7th century religious practice in which girls were dedicated to temples for lives of dance and prayer.
Absolutely biased report. Undoubtedly the product of leftist and/or anti-Hindu propagandists. For your information, prostitution swelled most remarkably during the British period, when much of the Indian countryside was reduced to penury – read any decent history of India not written by missionary-Dravidianists. The main cause of prostitution today is poverty, not Brahmins.
Try this version: “Who taught the brahmins this? Were you really so dumb and inferior in intelligence to muslims and the british that you would allow them full authority?”. Whats your answer?
You were the ones in charge. We accomodated ourselves to the existing power structure. When it came time to fight for freedom it was the OBCs who cozied up to the British, or lobbied for silly things like Dravdiastan. We didn’t. I see you’ve come a long way, a media celebrity of sorts, worth of Lord Murugan 🙂
Anna wrote:
Then Divya wrote:
Divya, this is very interesting to me, and I have a theory… I was just in India, and one of my best friends (who has never lived outside of India) and I (never lived out of the US) were doing the usual compare/contrast thing, and we started talking about shopping. She was morally outraged that she couldn’t take my gora husband certain places that she wanted to take him because shopkeepers would instantly go into “let’s rip off the gora, what’s Rs. 100 to him?” mode. As we got to talking, she said that when going about her business, running errands in India, she had to assume everyone was out to get her/cheat her…read: Trust No One. Guilty until proven innocent. I, on the other hand, have the exact opposite mindset. In the US, you’re SUPPOSED to assume your average Joe’s telling the truth and NOT out to get you, and give people the benefit of the doubt unless/until they show you otherwise.
Sooooo…I think maybe this is why you may see offenses where none are intended.
Anna, on this note (your quote above), don’t change. Remember when our teachers said the only stupid question was the one we didn’t ask? It only hurts for a minute, like ripping off a band-aid, but it’s only by braving it, taking the risks you do, exposing your vulnerable underbelly to virtual strangers in this forum…this kind of open and honest communication is the only way human beings ever truly find the source of our disconnects and hope to repair them. So: chin up and keep blogging, babe!!
Hey! That part’s Divya’s too, not mine! Sorry about that! Missed the quotey thingy. (that’s an offical term, I’m sure)
Stubbornly, brazenly dishonest. That was a brahminical reference not wikipedia. What part of “By the persisting pressure of the British lobby against the devasasis the Indian Government eventually launched the Anti-Nautch Act, 1947. The Act not only terminated the entire caste of devadasis, but also the last brahminical profession discharged by the Indian woman.” were you unable to follow?
FYI, the british stood against brahminical temple prostitution. For centuries if not millenia it never occurred to the brahmins that this abomination along with the abominations of child marriage, widow burning, untouchability etc were wrong. In fact brahmins actively lobbied the british to desist from banning the “noble” custom of burning widows alive! The Shankaracharya of Puri even tried to get independent India to overrule the british ban against the “glorious” custom of widow-burning.
The British are long gone but brahmins are still consecrating little girls as devadasis and selling their virginity to the highest bidder. There is no denying the role of brahminical devadasism in the rampant child prostitution in India.
Interesting that you are so proud of this “accommodation” to muslim and british rule. The muslim invaders made brahmins wear nose bags filled with minced beef and treated them as dhimmis; the british colonials treated them as an inferior race along with the rest of indians, and you are proud of this “accommodation”?
Whoa, mama… Where’s my popcorn…?
Whoah. How did this issue go from profanity to sexual trafficking in the span of two (?) days.
FYI, the british stood against brahminical temple prostitution. For centuries if not millenia it never occurred to the brahmins that this abomination along with the abominations of child marriage, widow burning, untouchability etc were wrong.
The British stood against prostitution after wresting power from OBC and Muslim chieftans and creating British India. They brought on the penury that forced thousands of women into prostitution. That was something even the Mughals werent able to do. And for your information, who do you think runs Mumbai prostitution rings? Do you have any idea of the Mumbai mafia, the money from the Middle East? When was the last time you actualy visited India? Brahmin priests are not in charge 🙂
The muslim invaders made brahmins wear nose bags filled with minced beef and treated them as dhimmis; the british colonials treated them as an inferior race along with the rest of indians, and you are proud of this “accommodation”?
And what were the shudra toddy tappers doing? Still tapping toddy I suppose, or cutting sugar cane from the fields while the kings changed? 😉 You think your twisted stories make Brahmins look evil. They actually make shudras look stupid and powerless. The resentment you feel has everything to do with the fact that Brahmins took over the administrative apparatus of the state during British rule. As a result of this you and the rest of the Dravidianists invented 5000 years of oppression and established reservations for yourselves. Of course you can never substantiate the opprression claims outside of dravidianist-missionary sources. You think your being righteous, but you’re actually racist. Since Brahmins are a tiny minority, your vicious hatred is akin to anti-semitism.
Ooooo…isn’t it FUN to make a mountain out of a mole hill?! Makes the blood flow to the nether regions, doesn’t it? Makes one feel ALIVE! Let me run and get my ruler… English or metric, which does one prefer? Decisions, decisions…
Yep. You pay, you do, you leave. And if you use a condom, no further entanglement.
Whereas if you marry and have kids, big samsar, big entanglement, no moksha for long time.