I am heartsick. I want no part of what has been occurring in “my house” as of late.
When Abhi approached me about starting a group blog to highlight “brown†aspects of the 2004 presidential race, I immediately agreed to take part. Why wouldn’t I? This project would seek out and illuminate that which the mainstream media couldn’t be bothered with— discrimination against a journalist with a South Asian name, the disrespect shown to our culture by a state branch of a major political party, essentially, the desi angle to everything around us. We would light the political and social night. We could be a beacon to every other South Asian American who felt exactly what we felt, lived through what we had, questioned what we did.
As an Orthodox Christian, the concept of “light†is sacred to me; I stood with almost a thousand people last Saturday night, waiting for our priest to throw open the doors to the altar, holy fire held high. The altar boys would take bits of that flame for their own candles, then fan out and pass the light on to the first row of parishioners, who would turn and continue the cycle, one pew lighting the candles behind it until everyone was bathed in the glow that only comes from flame and wax. The ritual which had taken place for over a millennia demonstrated how consummate darkness would always be destroyed by light. Light, a symbol of hope, a symbol of truth. Light, a visual reminder of the triumph of good over evil.
Evil does live in the dark. It lurks in shadows where it ensnares victims of rape, gagging them with shame while concomitantly extinguishing their inner flames.
One of the reasons why rape survivors do not come forward is because they are terrified that they will be doubted. They will be humiliated again, this time by those who should know better, who work for justice. Bruised and broken, they are forced to relive their ordeal while relating it to cynics and skeptics. The burden is on the survivor and that isn’t right. Yes, sometimes people lie and manipulate sympathy but that never justifies being unkind.
Once, in my Freshman-year theology class, Sister Veronica was asked about whether one should always provide alms for beggars. “Sister…isn’t it true that these people are bums? That they are going to just spend the money on drugs or booze? That’s what my Dad said and that’s why I don’t give them money anymore.†Sister Veronica’s face became serene.
“Child, you have been taught since kindergarten to see the face of Christ in everyone you meet, no matter who they are. Yes, even those whom you refer to as ‘bums’ have a divine inner light because just like you, they are children of God. They deserve to be treated that way.â€
“But sister-“
“No buts. Even if they are going to use the pennies you give them for something else, even if they are lying about how they need money for food, even if they plan to buy drugs, you must believe that they are truly in need. Only God is allowed to judge others. And that unfortunate soul really might be in need—how would you know if they weren’t? And wouldn’t it be awful if you let your preconceived notions, your assumptions prevent you from doing what is right? From helping someone who truly needs it? You never know someone else’s story, so don’t act as if you do. Act as if you don’t. And act as if the best, not the worst is what is true.†I have carried those words, albeit imperfectly with me since that sunny California afternoon when I first heard them in 1988.
Maybe I am hypersensitive about this because I am usually the victim of people assuming the worst about me. At no less than three meetups, I have been approached privately by sheepish attendees who felt the need to identify themselves a second time–beyond the usual “hey, everyone say your name and if you comment, what name you comment under!‖ this time with their “troll handleâ€. In each of those situations, they extended apologies and some version of the following: “I don’t know why I thought you were a such a bitch/jerk/asshole when it’s not like I met you or knew you and now that I have met you, I feel bad.†Right. Thank you. I’m generally left a bit dazed by such encounters, but I am always grateful for them; I get those Mea Culpas via email, too.
But at least I get them. I don’t know if others are as lucky. I noticed that a few of you–and that few includes people whom I considered friends– isolated a commenter, surrounding him and casting aspersions at him as if they were stones. What’s worse, even after SM Intern intervened to proclaim that the mutineer being pelted was INNOCENT, this unconscionable behavior CONTINUED. So much for “my houseâ€, for Sepia Mutiny being a “safe spaceâ€. It is not right. And I will neither host nor participate in a community that behaves in such a vicious manner.
Who are any of us, to require that someone substantiate their life story? The person in question wasn’t asking for anything from us, beyond the usual respect and courtesy we normally extend to one another. If other commenters chose to express their sympathy or good will towards someone brave enough to bare themselves so totally and vulnerably (and yes, I know a little something about THAT, too, which is a huge part of why I’m livid) then it’s no one else’s business to insert themselves in to that emotional transaction.
I normally don’t get into personal lives and attacks, but had to respond to this since there was an outpouring of sympathy for you on this board. If there’s anything I cannot stand, it’s undeserved praise, criticsm [sic] or sympathy. [link]
Who among us is qualified to determine what another deserves when it comes to something as free and abundant as sympathy? We weren’t donating money or time or anything else to an unworthy cause, we were merely reaching out and offering comfort—was that so wrong?
I find it bitterly amusing that on a website where we rail against the ineffectiveness and injustice of profiling, some of us did exactly that. A few of our commenters posse’d up and attacked someone on the basis of their grammar, spelling, syntax. They decided that their quarry sounded female or FOBish or this or that. How does that possibly differ from my getting yanked out of the security checkpoint line at Dulles or JFK because my skin is brown and my name seems furrin? If it’s not fair to say I look like a terrorist than it is similarly uncalled for to say a commenter sounds like a ______ .
Assumptions are a terrible, dangerous thing, aren’t they? Please, let’s all try and avoid them, if for no other reason than to sustain the existence of this precious, fragile community which means everything to me. If it means anything to you, join me in insisting on civility at the Mutiny and model it for all. None of us is perfect, I know I have a wicked temper, but I’m trying to be better and I hope you will, too.
To the person who was singled out for such undeserved treatment: my sincerest apologies. I hope you know you are always welcome in our home.
Monkey # 4 you are absolutely right. I don’t have now nor at any point have had any malicious intent. And my intent wasn’t even to protect Moornam simply verbalizing my sort of similar sentiments. Perhaps this time discretion and not saying anything would have been more prudent. I meant no malice towards Clueless and I’m sorry. I don’t want to perpetuate what I consider communication but what is being percieved as haterade.
At what point are we undermining the value of the discourse by imposing restrictions on commenting freedom under the guise of “civility”? If everyone on this board has to maintain impeccable political correctness and manners then this blog no longer remains as interesting for me. (I know this is a complex issue and the Imus incident comes to mind immediately as I have been giving this all a lot of thought).
I come to this site to get insights into issues that I don’t come across elsewhere in such entertaining format. I welcome the variety of perspectives of the bloggers and commenters. While obvious troll rants should of course be called out like one this morning on an old thread from last year, there have been some call outs on this board that have made me think, “Really?” Should everyone be treading on eggshells, minding their p’s & q’s and sanitizing all responses lest they be viewed as making personal attacks? In the same way that you can’t tell if a commentor is male or female, you can’t always get a sense of whether they are being disengenuous or sincere.
Anna, you have written many, many wonderful and informative posts and I thoroughly enjoy reading them. I comment rarely because I nearly always concur with the general viewpoint, however I can’t possibly agree with you all the time. If I keep my dissents to myself then what is the value of the blog format?
Anna,
Have you ever wondered why no one (including myself) doubted your narration of your horrible experience? Because it was credible. It sounded true. It struck us as something that could happen to any of us.
No. This does not make sense. I gave specific point-by-point reason (over two posts) as to why I thought that (s)he was not credible. That was in hindsight, as I mentioned, a mistake. I got carried away by the improbability of the story, and as Hema pointed out, did not further the discussion in any way. I am sorry about that.
However, I do not consider my behaviour as “obnoxious”. I used no insults or slurs against Clueless. I did not mock his culture or any birth-related attribute about him. Yes – I did take him on his language because he deserved it. If there is a person from Bengal/Andhra who’s lived there for the first 30+ years of his/her life and cannot write a proper sentence in Bengali/Telugu, I will attack the person in a similiar manner.
M. Nam
This part of my comment is a little off-topic- I’d never read that post of Anna’s. I’ve never been raped but have been sexually assaulted in other ways. One issue that really resonated with me was the father-daughter exchange. It’s amazing how similar that is to exchanges that I’ve had with my father. And none of what happened made the father right in his sentiments, to me. I find it soo sad that our families have such doubt about us and sometimes then we want to actually be the bad girl that they always accuse of as. I understand it’s concern, but it’s irresponsible to speak like that to your children.
Moornam – First, I don’t think Clueless’s post was badly written… I quickly read over the posts usually while I am at work, and the grammar is what I expect from posts. I’ve been speaking English since a kid and certainly didn’t see any discrepancy between his English writing and being brought up in the West. And secondly a blog, for me is somewhere you can quickly write what you want and not have to worry about crossing your t’s and such, — just make sure you get a point across. I read your points but none of your points in anyway would lead me to think that Clueless is lying. Especially the whole “she sounds like a girl” part – that’s just gender stereotypes.
Sigh. I would neither want nor expect you to keep your dissent to yourself. I would however, love it if everyone expressed their dissent politely. Your entire comment made me want to engage with you, it was so kind. I want to see more of that, less assholery.
::
It is really depressing that some people seem to think (yes, you who were just deleted) that being rude is hip or politically incorrect and therefore contrarian and good. Political correctness is NOT the same thing as civility. The fact that I even need to type that is proof that this discussion needs to occur here (since it is, as someone else pointed out upthread, happening all over the web). It will not demean or lessen you to be polite to others; even if there are no “real” repercussions because you are just being an asshole anonymously, refrain. Just because you can be an ass doesn’t mean you should.
No, this is not a sorority HOUSE where I crack a whip as alpha bitch. I emphasized “my house” so much because that is the metaphor we have used since our beginning; that this is a neverending cocktail party at our place and you are welcome to stay forever as long as you don’t do anything mean to us, the monkeys or our guests. This analogy gets trotted out every time someone erroneously insists that they can be a douchebag here thanks to their right to free speech– SM is a private site. It really is just like a party in our home. We are responsible for it and we don’t have to put up with anything we don’t want to…
If you knew anything about sororitites, then you would understand that as a newbie here, you are much like a pledge. So, you would be expected to observe and learn vs. mouth off pointlessly. You would also be required to respect your elders, or in this case, those who have been commenting here for months/years; they have a certain amount of credibility with the rest of us which comes in handy in situations like this and plenty more. Now be good or I’ll feed you to some frat boy. And I’ll pick a smelly one.
Yo- Is it a coincidence that your name anagramizes to am moron? apart from what others have commented above, what annoyed me the most was how you so coyly managed to slip in your contempt for fobs, women and teenage girls, in one breezy vacuous sentence, you kundi-chhed.
i am from tamil nadu, and i can’t write a word of tamil, and i am 30 years old. attack away!
If you knew anything about sororitites, then you would understand that as a newbie here, you are much like a pledge. So, you would be expected to observe and learn vs. mouth off pointlessly. You would also be required to respect your elders, or in this case, those who have been commenting here for months/years; they have a certain amount of credibility with the rest of us which comes in handy in situations like this and plenty more. Now be good or I’ll feed you to some frat boy. And I’ll pick a smelly one.
oh, is that how it works in your sororities? wow, sounds just like indian society to me. no i don’t know anything about sororities. i’m just a fob you see.
Check it. Here’s what I’ve observed. Sepia Mutiny (a) has a set a fairly high threshhold of assholery that must be breached before a person is banned & (b) only the most inflammatory comments are ever deleted.
These are truths. A good example of (b) is that all the comments doubting “clueless” were allowed to stand, distasteful as they were to some of the bloggers and commenters. Anna’s response, her personal response, was to write a follow-up blog post about it. I happen to think her instinct was the right one: when an innocent party is being swarmed on, something should probably be done. Comments don’t get deleted for being unpopular. That can’t be overstated enough. And people don’t get banned simply for having reprehensible opinions. Any suggestion that this is some kind of fascistic regime is a steaming pile of cowdung. It simply doesn’t line up with the facts.
I could very easily name three or four regular commenters on here that, were they on my personal blog, I would have banned without a second thought.
Nameremovedis sure as hell not welcome at my house. I haven’t any use for the likes ofYouknowwho. These are open secrets. They wouldn’t want me on their blogs either.But I think it is good and right that they are permitted to be here and to say their piece. No doubt many agree more with them than with me. Shit, sometimes I even surprise myself and agree with them. As long as they are not acting in a manner hostile to Sepia Mutiny’s larger aim of civil discourse, it’s all good in the neighborhood.
Let me get sentimental for a minute here: this is a damn good blog. The bloggers are doing a hell of a job, and some of the commenters are people I’m proud to know, even from a distance. That all of this is happening in a minimally-regulated environment, that any primate with access to a keyboard is allowed to express opinions, day after day, without the place getting completely splattered in feces, is surely a miracle of the internet age.
The other thing is that (and I’m guessing here, since I’ve never been to North Dakota) there’s just as much debate going on inside the bunker about what’s too much control and what’s too much slack. You think five-plus smart Desis are going to agree with each other on everything? When was the last time that happened in real life? Nothing’s set in stone. “SM Intern” doesn’t run the joint. He/she must bend to the will of the committee.
Know a good thing when you see it people. It’s not going to last forever, that I can guarantee. It might not even last all that long. So drink some prune juice y’all, and let the shit flow.
The male and female body are anatomically, physiologically and hormonally different, it just doesn’t seem far fetched the brains are too.
there are average male female differences on a whole of metrics, but the precise averages (means) exhibit variance. if the two distributions overlap A LOT (e.g., male and female SAT Math distributions) you need to be cautious about inferring to one individual based on a group average. over the long term you’ll end up more right then wrong, but if you are wrong 40% of the time does it really help using that generalization as a heuristic? you can use other priors to increase your confidence in your hypothesis.
As a long time reader I am disappointed, I am not going to replay what others have said in new words. I expect this kind of behavior from a noob, not from a long timer.
Anna, Thanks for having a sense of humor even when things are so murky. And clueless thanks for sharing your story with us.
If everyone on this board has to maintain impeccable political correctness and manners then this blog no longer remains as interesting for me
if ceasing and desisting in the sort of behavior anna linked to consists of “impeccable political correctness” i must wonder as to what your standards are? and if cleaning house of that sort of behavior renders the blog uninteresting to you i strong suspect that anna could care less. there is always the superficial if you’re jonesing for middle-skool blog action (do not click if you have problems with seeing hulk hogan’s daughter’s abs).
oho, i see now. this is a fanclub of some sort. well have fun with mom superior kiddos. i gotta go make those rotis now for pati-parmeshwarji (husband-god for the non-“indian” speaking folk here). ta.
Yes.
Yes, it is.
And all of my “fans” have to prove their devotion BY NOT BEING ASSHOLES TO EACH OTHER. Horridly unreasonable, innit? Now scamper off and do focus, I don’t want your employment of sarcasm to in any way impede the roundness of your rotis.
begtodiffer:
Mr Kobayashi:
So much word to the above! I think people should feel free enough to call people out, not just for being trolls (which are frequently obvious), but also sockpuppets (not so difficult to tell). That’s my only issue with this latest policy – that people will figure it’s better to not call someone on something they’ve written that just sounds off. (For example, what if I identify myself as malayalee, but keep referring to the state of Karela?)
That said, when SM Intern came out and said Clueless (or any other Poster du jour) was not a troll, (s)he would know, so continuing to bash Clueless after that? not cool.
I wouldn’t suggest that anonymous posting be no allowed (and I certainly don’t know if the bloggers are discussing any kind of changes on this aspect). My suggestion is to allow viewing of commenting history to registered users (possibly with just a valid email address). In any case this is still a good blog.
the thing is that if you are a “regular,” with an email or a blog link, you are “putting yourself out there.” there are only so many debits you can take out of the system in terms of letting loose and being a prig before people will turn on you and get tired of your indulging your personal whims and shitting in the ecosystem. people who drop in anonymously don’t have an investment because they come and go and they’re just sampling. a registration system is often a good filter because those who want to make bitchy/snarky comments can’t usually be bothered to take the time and effort to go through those steps. in contrast, those who have registered will tend to make bitchy/snarky comments, but they show that they will invest time to register (small as that investment is), and so there will be some incentive to hold back on occasion.
of course the “regulars” and the SM crew will note the familiarity in the arguments made by some anonymous folk arguing for “free speech.” they’ve been made before, but they don’t recall because they weren’t here, and they won’t be here in the future either (another generation of anonymous participants will make the exact same comments before they go on their way).
What Kobayashi said.
That is all.
Peace.
i’m glad this discussion is taking place. there’s no need to be hostile or rude on sm. it’s kinda scary. scariness = making me want to hide and not comment.
Not long ago, clueless was consider a very great troll. some cultural patriots had targeted him as a serial denigrator of punjabis. another person had questioned his mental stability when he made some remarks about sikhs. but he opened himself up, and that immediately absolved him in the eyes of many. Moor Nam, imo, made some very tactless remarks in his interrogation, but he’s apologized for most of them, so no need to rehash. I agree with Anna’s post in its entirety. community preservation is a very difficult thing, and, as Kobayashi says, “nothing lasts forever.”
A N N A,
I take hope among the regular SM readers to preserve civility. The more familiar a reader becomes with this community, generally his/her civility improves (I think).
This is a general observation completely unconnected to this particular discussion but relevant to the larger issue.
This is not entirely true, an example. It’s all good, you’re entitled to your distastes. I just felt compelled to express that I do not think the standards here are always so value neutral.
The search feature on the home page — or directly from google, e.g. a search query of KarmaByte site:sepiamutiny.com — is a good approximation. It is not a bad idea to look at the history of comments before accusing someone of trollery/deception.
Thanks for that tip dipanjan. But still it would be nice if I could just click the handle and be able to view the history. Of course it is always easier to wish than to implement.
Espressa, I’m not sure if this will mean anything to you or if it will improve a long-festering situation at all, but since I’m all cried-out and far too fucking open this evening (and that’s when I’m sober!) I’m going to just put it out there: I regret that your 55 was deleted. I am sorry. If that were the theme this week and you had submitted it, I would have pushed back. Because I don’t like being a hypocrite. And I know that often, we are all over-extended so whatever time we have left to give isn’t enough and that means that things are done unevenly.
But you were a “regular” and someone I enjoyed reading. And I saw how you drifted away after that and I didn’t blame you, but I did miss you, especially on certain Fridays.
ANNA, thanks, I truly appreciate that. It wasn’t my 55, but I thought it was fun. Not everyone’s cup of tea, surely, but I was annoyed with the condemnation of it. But that was a long time ago and now it’s Friday night… and time for a drink. cheers.
mr. kobayashi:
that is the best quote ever. thank you.
Far be it from me to take credit. I owe the phrase to a certain widely-celebrated American musical-theorist and philosopher.
😉
Ahem: I don’t understand why there isn’t a registration process for new users. It really seems like the smartest solution to all of this; I think it would have a beneficial effect on this place, as well.
I’d just like to add that I just found this site a couple days ago, and have really started to like it, although sometimes I find it hard to relate to y’all. I’d say I’m a coconut, but I hate that term. Keep on truckin’, Anna.
Wow, I felt so bad about the other post that I didn’t even realize this one existed. What a downer before Picnic Day. Look, I just want everyone to know that I really do feel bad about what I said. I had/have no right to judge Clueless’ story. But if there’s any good that could come from that situation, it’s that I learned from it. Going forward, I’ll remember this situation before pointing fingers.
I’ll definitely remember this.
I’d be down for a typekey type registration service, or hell, with the amount of threads generated here a V Bulletin type messageboard. If it means some cash, I’d be willing to chip in. Keeping quality content is paramount and as I’ve learned on some other messageboards, quality editing and keeping a place coherent is part of the maturation process of the web.
Chilling but true. This is the only blog I read (other than Amardeep’s from time to time) and it’ll be a sad but inevitable day when it folds. Manish already left and some of the others look like they’re getting drained. The value that I’ve gotten here in terms of interesting discussions, getting to know a bunch of folks (even if in a limited way), learning a whole lot about many different things, getting to share my opinion and thoughts, reading some excellent writing from Siddhartha and others, and just the entertainment and enjoyment factors, can not be overstated. And of course the sense of community with other desis, both 1st and 2nd gen, diasporic and not. I too have noticed that a lot of the former ‘regulars’ don’t comment here much anymore. I can’t believe they’re not still lurking but I guess that could very well be the case. I hope this blog has many good years ahead of it, but regardless of how long it lasts, THANK YOU, bloggers, for this. And without naming names, thanks to all the commenters who also make this a worthwhile place.
Anna, kudos for trying to address this issue.
I was never a terribly prolific commenter, but some time back I stopped seeing SM comments as a place to engage in discussion because it seemed that the then-reigning group of commenters would jump to argue predictably standard positions, in contrast to when I first started reading the site, a couple of years back. I wonder if the comment threads back in what I see as the good old days of productive discussion actually look different than those today?
(However, the blog POSTS have remained wonderful.)
Dear Anna and the SM crew,
I just wanted to say thank you for welcoming me into your whare (home). I’ve been reading SM for the best part of a year now and only recently have started commenting because this community feels so open and welcoming of all (even if I’m in a completely different country to you). In fact Anna, it was one of your previous comments about everyone being welcome here that made me feel confident enough to join the discussion (especially as it was my home being talked about at the time). The majority of Mutineers seem to be a pretty cool bunch, I may not always agree with them but they have made the debate interesting and I’ve learnt a lot while I’ve lurked here. Please don’t be disheartened, sometimes people just suck, can’t do much about them sadly, but then, they only make us stronger (I’m starting to sound like my mother!).
Thank you for being here.
Arohanui.
x
Being a moderator at a big discussion board and for a long running discussion list – I’ve given up being surprised at the sporadic rudeness of some posters (especially given the anonymous nature of on-line posting.)
But I am sorry that anyone has to be the target of any such rudeness. Personally I have no problems with registration, but I can understand others hesitation about such things.
I always include a blog link, just because it’s who I am which I don’t hide. Of course then people learn that I actually own the He-Man & She-Ra box sets and will never take me seriously again. 😉
I’ve got to say, though, that there’s some smoke and mirrors up in here. What, exactly, would required registration contribute to the strength of this site? Let’s look at the specific situation under consideration: a well-known long time commenter was taken to task by a number of well-known long-time commenters.
If there were a registration regime in place, the exact same thing would have happened. So, to me, this is like going into the hospital with a stomachache and coming out with a vasectomy. Like, gee, thanks, but I’ve still got the stomach ache.
Now, one strong advantage for required registration would be that it lightens the work-load for the bunker-wallahs. There would be less of a clean-up burden, less egregious spamming and drive-by trollery. But that crap gets cleaned up anyway. This debate is not about that. This is about the rules of discourse among established commenters. Registration is strictly a red-herring.
I mention this because I think a more regimented commenting policy, at least as far as registration goes, will have two distinct disadvantages:
1) A loss of the drive-by positive contributions. These are not regulars at SM, but they are people who have something valuable to say about a specific post. Things like “Oh, this guy is my cousin, he isn’t really like that” or “I went to college with this woman, she’s always been a genius” or “This describes my family to the last detail” or “I’m a lawyer at Guantanamo Bay.”
2) Driving away the many regulars who really don’t care to be identified or contacted. This blog could potentially lose Red Snapper, Kavita, MD, Neale, Branch Dravidian, Spoor Lam, ShallowThinker, GujuDude, Manju, WhoseGodisItAnyways, DDiA, Amitabh and (as the guy in the tuxedo and toupe says) many many more. Judge for yourself is that’s worth the advantage of fewer spills on aisle 3.
In other words, anonymity has its value. A person is not a troll simply because they don’t want you all up in their private business. On the flipside, some of the rudest and most unreasonable people on the site do provide links to their email and homepages.
Just something to think about before you erect x-ray machines all over the place. That would be the easy solution but, in my opinion, the wrong one.
People LOVE giving away their rights for the illusion of greater security…
Amitabh @ 81 and Mr Kobayashi @ 85: Word, brothers!
I too have noticed that a lot of the former ‘regulars’ don’t comment here much anymore. I can’t believe they’re not still lurking but I guess that could very well be the case
I am not sure if too many regulars have gone away. I have been commenting here since November, 2004 and lurking since almost Aug-September, 2004 and most of the regulars are still here. Initially the regulars were mostly the bloggers themselves commenting plus a few people like Razib, GC, Punjabi boy, MD. I think the core group of commenters is still here.
You know, I went away from this blog for a while because I was busy at work (and, just accepted a new position in Chitown! Yeah), and when I came back after a long while had a comment deleted. I got a bit miffed, being a long-time commenter who had posted a lot more inflammatory stuff in my day, until Ennis told me I was being a knuckle-head (but, in a good Ennis-y way : ) )and that SM had had problems with the comment section and some comments were getting deleted. I have to say, I think that the threads are mostly okay, but maybe I haven’t been privy to the most egregious examples. I wonder, too, if, in the early days the craziness was so new that no-one paid as much attention to the commenting? I mean, I tended to scroll past stuff and just pick out what I wanted to read and my comments were longer and more impassioned. I didn’t know the characters yet, so I had to explain myself more. Maybe, I should try and go back to that, and not use short hand, assuming people will know about me already. I don’t really have an answers to any of this, but this is probably the only blog I’d register for 🙂 Oh, wait, I think I do have that typekey thing but I never sign in with it. Hmmm…
MD: congrats on your new position 🙂 very excited for you… say hi to the ‘bean’ when you see it in the park for me..
While I completely agree with the gist of your message, I don’t think the analogy is particularly accurate. I think it’s more like if you and your friends rented out space for public discourse, put up signs in the front advertising for public entry. It demands civility, respect and all that fun stuff, but not the same as a party in your home. Subtle difference, but I’m a stickler for details.
I’m a stickler for details as well, so with all due respect…no. We didn’t advertise this site anywhere. And as someone who was one of the first to say, “Hey, this party sounds like a great idea guys! Let’s do it! I’m in.” before spending considerable amounts of time moving furniture, lighting votives, deciding on appetizers, creating a playlist for the iPod and buying far too many Solo cups (for a cocktail party! The horror, the horror!), I think I would know. When I signed on, I signed on for that, not what you outlined.
Here is why the distinction is significant to me; it is more like a party in our home because douchebags are still less likely to act up in your house vs. a “rented” space. I know. I threw those parties a decade ago in both venues. And now, I’d like to get back on message wrt this very important discussion about the future of this community, and what it will take to sustain such an unlikely dream.
As it were. It’s true that douchebags are more likely to hold back in a house party, but it’s only to not risk classification (and yes, it is a subjective classification) as a douchebag.
The problem I have with the analogy is, the intent of a house party is to entertain people you tacitly approve of. The barrier of entry is much higher than it is here, a neutral space has a lower barrier of entry. As someone stated earlier, it seems the benefits (the occasional profound comment by anonymous contributors), are outweighing the costs (douchebag cleaning every few.. months? weeks? days?) of such a low barrier of entry.
And quite frankly, there is a form of advertising going on here. Maybe you didn’t actively intend it, but it’s happening. Offering direct links to posts, links to other blogs, other blogs linking to you, friendster profiles, is all an encouragement to enter, tantamount to advertising. I don’t even remember how I heard about your site, but I’m pretty sure I wasn’t invited by one of the founding fathers/mothers.
I’m honestly not really sure why anyone continues to bother engaging with MoorNam. He makes broad, sweeping statements without backing them up with links or references, even when asked explicitly. In fact in one thread, he was asked to provide a reference for something he said; he didn’t, and in fact went on to ask someone else to back up a statement.
I’ve always just thought of him as a permanent troll (no doubt some of you think of me in this light too, but like MoorNam, I don’t really have a huge issue with that).
That said, his level of assholery in this particular instance took me aback, and I was pretty surprised and amused by his ideas of masculinity. I suspect that if some of us dudes here didn’t blog under our first names, he’d think we wuz all girlz.
Also, Anna:
Ugh, what?
I’m with HMF on this one, I think. Sure, SM requires civility and kindness (can’t people just stay quiet if they only have hatred to spew? why does the web have different rules for being an asshole?) , but if you truly want it to be private, set up a password system and let in only approved guests. Otherwise, it’s a public forum and anyone can just drift on in.
Oh, and what Vivek said. 🙂
but doesn’t engaging with moornam hold a special entertainment value–as a pet Orientalist (in tone if not in content)?
You know, that almost-annoying contrarian voice which can’t substantiate any of it’s claims–a constant reminder of what not to do?
How did I offend you this time, Vivek? I couldn’t parse the “ugh” and don’t want to assume anything. The “smelly frat boy” bit was a joke, but apparently you either didn’t approve of it or interpret it as such?
.
And Ismat, I am disappointed. Honestly, reading your comment makes me want to rip my hair out. If that’s your take on what I was painstakingly trying to explain then I am one colossal fuck-up wrt my communication skills.
Let me try one more time, though at this point it feels futile:
I do not want this to be a club. It is, however, a private site, whether or not you agree with that or feel comfortable with declarations of it as such. Its status as a private site is why we have the ability to keep it relatively asshole-free. HMF’s take on it is simultaneously flawed and correct– this IS a space which requires “tacit approval” in that if we don’t like the tone of your comments or your flagrant disregard for our well-stated and obvious rules, we will disapprove. And ban and delete. Often, this inspires people to complain that we are being too harsh etc, but after years of doing this, we’re better at seeing around corners and we act pre-emptively because of it.
How many times do I have to say it? Everyone is welcome here, until they prove that they shouldn’t be. But that doesn’t mean that I am going to set the “barrier” low, no, not at all. We do not tolerate what other websites might and that is why we are who we are. That is why people feel safe here. I think that is why you keep coming back.
It seems like people would rather quibble with me than support my end goal of making this a kinder place for all to feel comfortable in. If I am this sort of nasty, polarizing figure, then perhaps the greatest thing I can do for the future of this website is leave it. I certainly don’t need the heartache I felt when I originally wrote this post on Friday, which I feel right now, which is what is unavoidable when someone is as passionate about something as I am.
I definitely don’t need the inevitable haterade from trolling motherfuckers who will hiss “Anna, wahhh if it’s so hard for you or it upsets you so much, why do it? I’m sick of hearing about how much time you spend here, the toll it takes on you nanny nanny boo boo etc ad nauseum”. Yes, yes I am evil, I get it. No need to state the obvious.
‘If I am this sort of nasty, polarizing figure, then perhaps the greatest thing I can do for the future of this website is leave it.‘
Noooooo!
Sorry, Anna. As someone who has, for the past year, helped in moderating a group blog which is sometimes plagued by the same trolls who make much more frequent appearances here, the fact that I agree with the big picture of your post has become so obvious to me that I didn’t state it explicitly.
I agree with you completely about the need for civility anywhere – be it blog or life.
As for the comment of yours which I picked out, I didn’t think conjuring up the image of feeding a sorority pledge to some smelly frat boy was in particularly good taste.
One reason I generally refrain from commenting on these threads is that I rarely phrase things well enough to set an agreeable tone.
Coach, mi corazon, thank you but…por favor, mija…no. It just gives my detractors material. I wrote that because I am starting to feel like my vision or dreams for this site are…wrong. It’s like King Solomon, right? The real mother walks away rather than see her baby cleaved in half.
If I leave, it’s because I really can’t do this anymore, not because people were mean to me. Ha. People have been mean to me since we started. I spent fifty hours on SM last week. I work full-time. Something’s gotta give.