I am heartsick. I want no part of what has been occurring in “my house” as of late.
When Abhi approached me about starting a group blog to highlight “brown†aspects of the 2004 presidential race, I immediately agreed to take part. Why wouldn’t I? This project would seek out and illuminate that which the mainstream media couldn’t be bothered with— discrimination against a journalist with a South Asian name, the disrespect shown to our culture by a state branch of a major political party, essentially, the desi angle to everything around us. We would light the political and social night. We could be a beacon to every other South Asian American who felt exactly what we felt, lived through what we had, questioned what we did.
As an Orthodox Christian, the concept of “light†is sacred to me; I stood with almost a thousand people last Saturday night, waiting for our priest to throw open the doors to the altar, holy fire held high. The altar boys would take bits of that flame for their own candles, then fan out and pass the light on to the first row of parishioners, who would turn and continue the cycle, one pew lighting the candles behind it until everyone was bathed in the glow that only comes from flame and wax. The ritual which had taken place for over a millennia demonstrated how consummate darkness would always be destroyed by light. Light, a symbol of hope, a symbol of truth. Light, a visual reminder of the triumph of good over evil.
Evil does live in the dark. It lurks in shadows where it ensnares victims of rape, gagging them with shame while concomitantly extinguishing their inner flames.
One of the reasons why rape survivors do not come forward is because they are terrified that they will be doubted. They will be humiliated again, this time by those who should know better, who work for justice. Bruised and broken, they are forced to relive their ordeal while relating it to cynics and skeptics. The burden is on the survivor and that isn’t right. Yes, sometimes people lie and manipulate sympathy but that never justifies being unkind.
Once, in my Freshman-year theology class, Sister Veronica was asked about whether one should always provide alms for beggars. “Sister…isn’t it true that these people are bums? That they are going to just spend the money on drugs or booze? That’s what my Dad said and that’s why I don’t give them money anymore.†Sister Veronica’s face became serene.
“Child, you have been taught since kindergarten to see the face of Christ in everyone you meet, no matter who they are. Yes, even those whom you refer to as ‘bums’ have a divine inner light because just like you, they are children of God. They deserve to be treated that way.â€
“But sister-“
“No buts. Even if they are going to use the pennies you give them for something else, even if they are lying about how they need money for food, even if they plan to buy drugs, you must believe that they are truly in need. Only God is allowed to judge others. And that unfortunate soul really might be in need—how would you know if they weren’t? And wouldn’t it be awful if you let your preconceived notions, your assumptions prevent you from doing what is right? From helping someone who truly needs it? You never know someone else’s story, so don’t act as if you do. Act as if you don’t. And act as if the best, not the worst is what is true.†I have carried those words, albeit imperfectly with me since that sunny California afternoon when I first heard them in 1988.
Maybe I am hypersensitive about this because I am usually the victim of people assuming the worst about me. At no less than three meetups, I have been approached privately by sheepish attendees who felt the need to identify themselves a second time–beyond the usual “hey, everyone say your name and if you comment, what name you comment under!‖ this time with their “troll handleâ€. In each of those situations, they extended apologies and some version of the following: “I don’t know why I thought you were a such a bitch/jerk/asshole when it’s not like I met you or knew you and now that I have met you, I feel bad.†Right. Thank you. I’m generally left a bit dazed by such encounters, but I am always grateful for them; I get those Mea Culpas via email, too.
But at least I get them. I don’t know if others are as lucky. I noticed that a few of you–and that few includes people whom I considered friends– isolated a commenter, surrounding him and casting aspersions at him as if they were stones. What’s worse, even after SM Intern intervened to proclaim that the mutineer being pelted was INNOCENT, this unconscionable behavior CONTINUED. So much for “my houseâ€, for Sepia Mutiny being a “safe spaceâ€. It is not right. And I will neither host nor participate in a community that behaves in such a vicious manner.
Who are any of us, to require that someone substantiate their life story? The person in question wasn’t asking for anything from us, beyond the usual respect and courtesy we normally extend to one another. If other commenters chose to express their sympathy or good will towards someone brave enough to bare themselves so totally and vulnerably (and yes, I know a little something about THAT, too, which is a huge part of why I’m livid) then it’s no one else’s business to insert themselves in to that emotional transaction.
I normally don’t get into personal lives and attacks, but had to respond to this since there was an outpouring of sympathy for you on this board. If there’s anything I cannot stand, it’s undeserved praise, criticsm [sic] or sympathy. [link]
Who among us is qualified to determine what another deserves when it comes to something as free and abundant as sympathy? We weren’t donating money or time or anything else to an unworthy cause, we were merely reaching out and offering comfort—was that so wrong?
I find it bitterly amusing that on a website where we rail against the ineffectiveness and injustice of profiling, some of us did exactly that. A few of our commenters posse’d up and attacked someone on the basis of their grammar, spelling, syntax. They decided that their quarry sounded female or FOBish or this or that. How does that possibly differ from my getting yanked out of the security checkpoint line at Dulles or JFK because my skin is brown and my name seems furrin? If it’s not fair to say I look like a terrorist than it is similarly uncalled for to say a commenter sounds like a ______ .
Assumptions are a terrible, dangerous thing, aren’t they? Please, let’s all try and avoid them, if for no other reason than to sustain the existence of this precious, fragile community which means everything to me. If it means anything to you, join me in insisting on civility at the Mutiny and model it for all. None of us is perfect, I know I have a wicked temper, but I’m trying to be better and I hope you will, too.
To the person who was singled out for such undeserved treatment: my sincerest apologies. I hope you know you are always welcome in our home.
Anna thank you very much.
Like I said in the other post I’m willing to answer questions, if anybody has any about my marriage.
Off topic Anna I noticed in one of your blogs that you taste in music is very good, plus your a fan of Tanya Donelly/Belly, which is always a good thing.
i’m not even a sm blogger, and i too want apologize for that particular comment. been a big fan of sepiamutiny for quite a while now. SM Intern can’t keep an eye on all comments, so to keep this community going we certainly need to think before we say such hurtful things.
Anna, thanks for this call for acceptance, empathy and non-judgmentality. Really, this is your home, and one of the reaasons I’ve felt so much also at home here is the amazing warmth and welcomingness that I’ve found. This is one of the greatest things about SM, and I salute your attempt to keep it that way.
You were right to call out those who, in spite of being warned, persisted in airing their prejudice, for that is what it is, even if some of the offenders were people you are friends with. This incident has a stink of classism about it, and undertones of regionalism/communalism besides, that must be exposed. I’m not saying anything I haven’t said before, but the original poster brings in really valuable perspectives that are different from those of the majority at SM precisely because his experiences have been different from those of the majority, just like most South Asians in North America have had experiences different from the majority of other North Americans. Not being “articulate” should never, ever, disqualify anyone from being patiently, empathically, and non-judgmentally heard.
“SM Intern can’t keep an eye on all comments”
speaking of which, some poor soul is in need of some clean up here.
You’re a wonderful writer, Anna. Your description of the candle service and its meaning was just lovely.
I enjoy reading SM, but sometimes I do wonder at the tenor of some comments. Recently, I read about some blog collectives putting forth some voluntary civility guidelines for posting. The usual debate ensued about freedom of speech in the blogosphere vs. proprietary rights to a personal blog, etc. But I wondered whether any such discussion had occurred on this site? Are their any posting guidelines apart from the “please don’t feed the trolls?”
S
Whose God– thanks for the alert. Done. 🙂
hey ppl,
those comments that you talked about, were deplorable and should never have occured.
But at this time, would also like to appreciate how you guys helped everyone get together in the case against Mr. Nag. You guys did end up meeting ypur aims when you set up the site.
One good reason to have registered users with ability to view commenting history of other users. Just saying..
I was worried when I saw this post that comments could start getting snippy and our little community would no longer be the same. So far it seems my fears won’t be realized, of which I am grateful.
Well written post BTW Anna. I usually drift off reading long posts, but I read this one through and also went back to read the comments on the previous post leading to this.
Anna chechi,
In principle, I totally agree with you, but is it so wrong to notice and point out that maybe a given story does not gel? Sympathy with a side helping of discernment, perhaps?
Discernment is always good; there is a way to phrase things that isn’t accusatory. This is essentially about courtesy, which is necessary if we are to survive as a mutinous community.
The egregious aspect of this incident was the fact that after Clueless’ comments were verified, people STILL piled on– what excuse can there be for that? Who are we to decide how someone should sound? It’s ludicrous. Someone sounds like a girl? What do girls sound like? Am I the only one who is flummoxed at this?
No, you weren’t. This needs to stop.
Nicely put ANNA. There is always a possibility of getting attacked when you expose your vulnerable side. I never knew that 20 year old men can be hitched to someone like that on a vacation, if its true, its scary :(. Hopefully its a very rare case.
Outstanding post. There is nothing wrong with expecting guests to display a modicum of civility. Congratulations on restoring order to your online home…and thanks again for inviting us in!
Lovely sentiment, thanks for sharing. I’ve been reading SM pretty regularly for just over a month now (after lurking on and off forever) and I was a little taken aback with the assumptions a couple of commenters made based on my harmless remarks (apparently I am a “dumb ass” and “too suburban” even though I’ve lived in a city my entire life). As such, I have purposely kept my remarks rather inane until I feel “safe” posting more opinionated stuff.
Looking at this question from a general perspective (not looking at the specific case you’re talking about in the original post), there’ are some general principles that indicate a female perspective rather than a male perspective (and vice versa). Yes, there are women that know a thing or two about baseball, but certain topics (cough romance cough) have pretty clear “male” and “female” perspectives. And this is even ratified by some female neuropsychiatrists
You never know someone else’s story, so don’t act as if you do. Act as if you don’t. And act as if the best, not the worst is what is true.
Words to live by, for sure.
I tried (in that earlier discussion) to point out that the veracity of a commenter’s post should be less important than its content. Ultimately, people say things on blogs they wouldn’t say in real life (true or otherwise), partly because the internet is an impersonal and anonymous forum.
In other words, does it really matter if someone is “making it all up”, as long as they’re making a point?
Thanks for this reality check, ANNA, and apologies, again to Clueless over this whole awful thing.
I agree with KarmaByte’s user registration suggestion. If that presents too many technical difficulties, people might be encouraged at least to provide links to their web/blog page or an email address–if they wish to be taken seriously. Much of the dungflinging comes from anonymous online ciphers, who can say whatever they want without being accountable to anyone (except by being banned or deleted). Posters with a least small connection to the physical world rarely start food fights. Yeah, there are privacy and spam concerns and all that, but it’s no big deal to add another yahoo or gmail address just for the purposes of posting here. At least, we could all try to get along.
I cannot believe you linked to that fucking book. That is the worst fucking example of neuropsychiatry in today’s pop-hype market and the fact you had to pull it off ABC.com decries it even further. Even if men and women do have different perspectives, many of which are societally conditioned and do frequently exist on this thread their reactions and behaviors should be respected whether or not they are “typically female” or “typically male”.
As a Punjabi, I totally can see his story being played out.
I am going to suspect that he doesnt want to divorce his wife because she has most likely threatened to kill herself if he does divorce her and who want’s that on his head?
I also try not to judge people because that just limit’s your mind. I try to act like Larry David on Curb Your Enthusiasm. He can have a conversation with a person with down syndrome, a Muslim woman in a Burka, and a African American prostitute all while not passing one judgement and just talking to them like a normal human being and that include’s cussing them out if he need’s to. He even got into a fight with a Sikh guy in one episode, not because of his turban, but because he stole a watch from Larry. I just that it was refreshing to see some one get into a fight with a Sikh, not because of religion, but because of a totally justified scenerio and it was all done without any mention of his turban.
Anyway’s, back to the topic. As a person, who sometime’s believe’s in God, I really do like the “Only God can judge me” statement. I find it comforting in the fact that, we all live in glass house’s, and if we want to judge people in a bad way, 99% of the time it can be passed right back to you.
I use to hold back so much when I was younger for the fear of “judgement” from my peers. Now I live by the code of “what ever!”
Guy reading comment: ShallowThinker, you are the dumbest Indian alive and may God have mercy on your soul
ShallowThinker: What ever!
Go from zero…
to sixty
in 3 seconds…
Well, I’m not a neuroscientist, but I’ve read the book, and if anything, the complaints are that it indulges in male bashing too much, which I could see.
I never said anything about disrespecting perspectives, only that I believe there are indeed identifiable perspectives, particularly on certain topics.
0 to 60 (in half an hour), but my point stands in both extremes. It did indulge in male bashing and I was against that among many of its topics that seemed to want to establish a “oh we can’t help it” reason for behavior and discrimination. But yeah, despite whatever vague “identifiable perspectives” you’re referring to, we’re agreeing so now I’m stopping.
Regardless of whether SM Intern verified aspects of a poster’s identity, how does this automatically dictate that any related skepticism is unconscionable? I read the “offending” posts and frankly didn’t find anything trollish or vicious about them. When a person chooses to post, those comments are naturally subject to varying interpretations. This is the nature of an online forum and moreover, human perception – requiring that someone’s life story be substantiated is almost frivilous. We don’t know Clueless and we don’t need to know Clueless to have reactions to his commentary that are legitimate simply because they are sincere, even if not sympathetic.
If none of us is qualified to determine whether another deserves sympathy, then none of is qualified to determine that another should indeed mete out sympathy. Scrutinizing a post based on grammar, spelling, syntax is reasonable when evaluating posts on a message board and is not the same as attacking someone based on skin color.
The male and female body are anatomically, physiologically and hormonally different, it just doesn’t seem far fetched the brains are too. I never got the “oh we can’t help it” vibe, truthfully, in fact in the forward, the author says it was a lack of inquiry into the female neuroanatomy (quite possibly, out of a male-dominated scientific community) that prompted her to write the book.
“I agree with KarmaByte’s user registration suggestion. If that presents too many technical difficulties, people might be encouraged at least to provide links to their web/blog page or an email address–if they wish to be taken seriously. Much of the dungflinging comes from anonymous online ciphers, who can say whatever they want without being accountable to anyone (except by being banned or deleted). Posters with a least small connection to the physical world rarely start food fights. Yeah, there are privacy and spam concerns and all that, but it’s no big deal to add another yahoo or gmail address just for the purposes of posting here. At least, we could all try to get along.”
I like to stay anonymous until I want to reveal more about myself – just b/c you are anonymous doesn’t mean you are a cipher. Unless the blog rules change, I’ll continue to be anonymous and for me being anonymous doesn’t take away my sense of responsibility for what I say.
And everyone should live or emote by your standards? Others were disturbed by what happened, are they less qualified or credible than you?
Fine. Split hairs if you must, but I think it’s bullshit to decide that someone sounds like a whatever based on what they write. It’s one thing to scrutinize, it’s another to vilify. If people decided at some point that Clueless was a female and then had a “Crying Game” moment of reckoning, that isn’t Clueless’ fault or his responsibility to suffer.
I’m not suggesting people sacrifice their anonymity. Just that they be reachable via email. It’s enormously helpful (and a brake on a food fight) to be able to correspond (civilly) with someone you disagree with. Instead of calling names or posting some slander that can’t be retracted, a simple email saying, “What did you mean when you said X?” can go a long way toward forestalling pandemonium.
But this is probably just a pipe dream. I have been accused of heinous crimes here on SM and no one has bothered to email me or call (such info is on my website) and ask for clarification or just register discontent.
Preston, I agree and actually think it’s super helpful. And while I have had people accuse me of this and the other, I’ve also had a handful of people email to apologize, clarify, or continue the discussion off the boards. I think it’s a great preventative gesture.
To be honest, the only reason I don’t post my email address is b/c I hate getting crappy spam from little demons running through message boards.
Pondatti, since from past posting you seem to favor equations:
all disturbance NOT= effects of trolling disagreeing NOT= vilifying 1 troll NOT= ALL trolls if they happen to agree with said troll people deciding Clueless was female NOT= suffering??
MY opinion NOT= standards that all should live by and/or lack of credibility of others
Not Mishi
an honest question: did you purposefully write a post with two grammatical errors and one spelling error as a form of irony? it changed the way i viewed your post, if you were being sly and sneaky like that. (email me at brooklynDOTmasalaATgmailDOTcom if you want the list)
BrooklynBrown:
how der u juge me for me sintacks
Yours Trule Sligh and Sneekie
How do you disagree with someone’s life?
a: This is my life story.
b: I do not concur!
Regardless of whether SM Intern verified aspects of a poster’s identity, how does this automatically dictate that any related skepticism is unconscionable?
I guess my question is what is the value of said skepticism, other than to call someone out as a troll, or to cast doubt on the contents of the post. Frankly, I don’t see that skepticism is warranted, primarily because it does nothing to advance a discussion.
Very mature. And useful for the purpose of this post.
“I’m not suggesting people sacrifice their anonymity. Just that they be reachable via email. It’s enormously helpful (and a brake on a food fight) to be able to correspond (civilly) with someone you disagree with. Instead of calling names or posting some slander that can’t be retracted, a simple email saying, “What did you mean when you said X?” can go a long way toward forestalling pandemonium. “
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again- Whatever you guys need done to take out the trash-registrations, cash, etc. that’s fine. BTW, I feel that even though everyone here has both my email and my blog address (and the bloggers have my digits too!) that I am still anonymous. It would obviously be very damaging to my kids and my job if it were known who I actually am. I have the coach diesel@hotmail account specifically for my forays into the blogging world so I don’t get message board spam.
I have never asked anyone to follow my standards because they are from me. On the contrary, I’ve been hinted to follow Veronica’s standards. Because, you know, they make sense. To orthodox victims.
In hindsight, I think I made a mistake by challenging Clueless’s personal claims. As someone else said, how does it matter whether Clueless is telling the truth or not? Such things do happen in the Punjabi diaspora. It is better to talk about issues than personalities. But I got suckered in by the ludicrity of it all.
M. Nam
I think one of the biggest ways to “clean up” would be for hecklers/trolls/people with an axe to grind to contact the blogger or commenter whom they have issues with directly, instead of passively aggressively trying to engage their targets via comment threads. It is possible to email every person in the bunker. Look in to it; if it doesn’t appeal to you because it means you won’t have an audience, then your intentions are hardly pure.
Coach is right, it’s possible to have credibility (an email address goes a long way, as others have affirmed) AND maintain anonymity.
Hema you raised this question several times and so I’m responding. In the grand scheme of things it doesn’t matter who the messenger is as long as the message is valid but the messenger loses credibility and it grates to communicate with someone you feel like isn’t real because you find holes and see patterns.
There have been some massive fights on SM in the past and people driven out because they were considered “trolls” and the most recent one I can think of is Pardesi Gori. Why was it OK to deem her a troll? Because everyone agreed and held hands on it? Why were we not one community of tolerant people then? I’ve never experienced this with anyone in the past on SM before and sincerely I’m not a troll and am not trying to be trollish at all. I’ve been attacked myself in the past, well and good. There were some anger issues stemming from that person. I rubbed her the wrong way. Whatever. I’m not sure I’d dismiss her as a troll. She didn’t like me. I can appreciate that.
I agree 100% and hence have kept my mouth shut in the past because really its pointless to discuss the semantics of a poster when the message is important. But when the discussion becomes about the poster and not the message and you just don’t agree it becomes uncomfortable.
Look at the end of the day I’m a guest on this blog as anyone else and understand the rules of engagement and conduct and appreciate them. I’m not perfect but I’m not a troll and certainly have zero to gain by attacking someone at all. And because I’m not a troll that I would attack someone at all and “gang” up on them for no reason is an implication I don’t appreciate nor do I appreciate being called out on being in some clique with Moornam who again I don’t know from the nail on the wall.
MoorNam:
If you have a problem with me or my calling you out for the unsuitable treatment you meted out to Clueless, email me directly.
Did you feel powerful after such pettiness? I hope so. I imagine that such sniping is the only pleasure you get to experience. I tried to write a post to bring some civility to this space AND to explain where I am coming from, in order to facilitate understanding and dialogue. If you feel like mocking me for it, feel free. Oh, wait, you don’t need my permission to be a sarcastic jerk, do you?
Hema you raised this question several times and so I’m responding.
Uh, my experience is that you pretty have to say everything three times to get noticed around here. 😉
Unless you post something completely incendiary, of course. Then it gets noticed right away.
I suppose quoting on the value of skepticism would be apposite but erring again on the side of immaturity:
“Aristotle maintained that women have fewer teeth than men; although he was twice married, it never occurred to him to verify this statement by examining his wives’ mouths.” – Bertrand Russell
Oh Woe Clueless, that online apparition! In real life, a simple count would have settled the matter.
Some people just cant admit they are WRONG. How hard could it be to utter, scratch that, type that I am sorry?
But why does it matter whether he was male or female?
Oh Woe Clueless, that online apparition! In real life, a simple count would have settled the matter.
Heh. Ok, you got me. I’m not saying skepticism has no value. I’m just saying questioning the veracity of a commenter while looking past the discussion-worthy content of the comment seems not to serve any useful purpose (IMO).
Well, other than entertainment, I suppose.
Anna, you are absolutely right, it does not matter. I think that was my point all along. Although I think it’s admirable that you corroborated Clueless’s commentary and defended him, I don’t think enduring skepticism is a cause for much concern.
Clueless was thought of as female/fob because men aren’t allowed to be hurt or victimized. For one to speak about his suffering in public is making heads explode. Ultimately, gender really shouldn’t matter. What should matter is our compassion for that suffering.
I’m speaking as a female routinely mistaken for male on this blog.
Because she was one. And when someone switches IPs or handles so many times, to leave consistently incendiary comments, it’s time for them to go. Or stay and cease with the trollery. It’s been said before, it takes a lot more to get banned than one might think.
Jane, there have been situations when your comments regarding race were debated in the bunker; mutineers who knew you stood up for you. You may not appreciate being thrown in the same pile as Moor Nam, but you did join him in his obnoxious antics. And those who vouched for you are affected by that.
Look, no one is a saint. This community is going through growing pains and it’s a critical point we are at…either we can try and establish (re-establish?) a tradition of civil discussion with our many newcomers or we will flame out like every other desi online community has. There’s sarcasm and then there’s snark. There’s discernment and then there’s distrust. Do you see where I’m going with this?
While I’m…grateful for it, I’m not looking for admiration, I’m looking for understanding so that I might achieve my end goal of an open space. I used the rape survivor analogy for a reason; I don’t want people to feel like they can’t share themselves here, because at Skeptical Mutiny, they are liars until proven truth-tellers, if that makes any sense.
If this community decays in to that, a moment like this, which affected so many, will never occur again. I will not put myself out there like that and if I wouldn’t, I can’t see anyone else doing it either. I still get letters from people who have gone through similar, who found comfort in that post and the ensuing thread. Between the Sanjaya posts and the identity-politics, we are doing actual, tangible, genuine good here. I am struggling to keep that goodness alive. To some readers, this is more than timepass. So much more. And they are why I spend the majority of my waking hours here, posting, monitoring, nudging, chiding, whatevering.
::
From an email I just received, less than a minute ago:
No, I don’t know “Clueless” from Adam. But I don’t need to know him to intervene when I see something which I am certain is WRONG. I’m not pumping him up, I’m trying to maintain order in my online home. Hope that sates your curiousity, even as it breaks my heart a little. Is it THAT difficult to grok what I’m trying to do?