Allow me to sum up the Slate article I’m about to blog in four words:
Arranged marriages don’t suck.
There, was that so difficult to admit?
Dear Prudie,
I am a 30-year-old single woman who has been living in the United States for the past few years. I am considered smart, successful, and attractive and have an interesting and fulfilling life. But my family, who live in India, are worried that I’m still single, and have been trying to arrange my marriage. While I do want to be married, I’ve had a couple of relationships that didn’t work out; I’ve been very independent and have lived life on my own terms—so I now find it hard to go through the arranged marriage setup. I know my parents will never force me to marry someone I don’t like, but the idea of having an arranged marriage seems archaic and almost mortifying. I’d also like to believe that marriages should be based in love and there should be an element of romance involved. My mother thinks that as long as two people have a certain compatibility and mutual respect, love can happen later. What should I do?
—Confused
Wait- wot’s this? Someone who isn’t second gen can be “confused”? Shocking. Utterly astonishing, I tell you. 😉 I thought we American Born-types had a monopoly on bewilderment.
Dear Confused,
Now that I have a daughter, I’ve come to see the wisdom of arranged marriages. What’s she going to know about picking a mate? Right now, I have a few candidates I’m keeping my eye on—since my daughter is only 11, I have plenty of time to monitor how these boys turn out. You say you would like to find a husband, but haven’t been successful at it. I understand your aversion to the idea of an arranged marriage, but as long as everyone understands you will not be pressured to wed the guy, why not see who your parents come up with? Certainly their knowledge of you, the young man, and the qualities two people need to get along has to be as good as the algorithms of Match.com. Yes, there is an archaic quality to the notion of being introduced to someone you are supposed to marry, but that’s the ultimate, if unstated, goal of most fix-ups. As for romance versus compatibility—you and your mother are both right. If you meet the man in question and you two fall in love, what a story of romantic destiny! And romance without compatibility and mutual respect—no matter how you two got together—is destined to be a relationship that didn’t work out.
—Prudie
Wow, not only do arranged marriages not suck– neither did Prudence’s take on them! And no mention of henna, spices or a mango anywhere! This is a landmark moment in the history of how arranged marriages are perceived in America. A mainstream columnist grokked the concept better than a brownie did; she realized that really, it’s more about the “assist” than the “arrange” and she didn’t get all westernized-aggro on our kundis about oppressive traditions, in fact, she basically asked, “What’s the harm?”. If you’ll pardon me, I’m going to go faint now, from the refreshing lack of orientalism/sensationalism/um…narrow-mindedness…ism.
::
Thanks for the tip, fish-eyed one. 🙂
Arranged marriages do suck, I do know, well I’m in one. I was forced into one at the age of 20 when I was on vacation with my parents in India.
Nice
From the post above (where it was in bold, no less):
No one sane would advocate the use of “force”. Let’s lay that out right now at the beginning of the thread. I am very sorry for what you must have gone through, but it seems like the advice seeker featured in this post is in a different situation, no?
Marriages suck if the partners can’t get along regardless of how the 2 got together. It’s just that arranged marriages give you the chance to blame someone else for your misery 🙂
Prudie was very refereshing. I wonder what hero my mom would have picked out for me. But mamma & pappa bear know me and my quirks. Looking back at my dating life, they were right on when they didn’t like a b/f or dude I was dating… I had too much of the romance dust in my eyes blinding me.
Karmabytes, that’s the exact same reason my parents never set me up. The wanted zero blame.
LOL..I am sorry for your ordeal but that is hilarious! marriage while on vacation..I mean DAMN homie
For some. Just as much as a marriage entered into by free will that turns sour. Arranged marriages don’t have a monopoly on potential heartache. I’m sorry you are in one.
KB:
Classic!
i thought they sucked, too. untill i met this gorgeous nice-as-hell banarsi doctor one of my friends was setup with this past weekend. i’m totally stealing that girl.
but seriously though, i was really under the impression that most folks had a choice to accept or reject. clueless @ 1… i am so sorry.
That’s because a mainstream columnist actually had, in my view, an entirely different concept of what arranged marriages are geared to do, and here’s the key: “Certainly their knowledge of you, the young man, and the qualities two people need to get along has to be as good as the algorithms of Match.com” So their actually using domain specific knowledge to prefilter people out based on individual characteristics, rather than “Here, meet this person because her parents speak the same language we do”
I’m sorry, but what I read above is a far cry from, “Some so-and-so aunty has a daughter, she lives 2000 miles away from you, works in so-and-so company, and has existed on earth for 25 years, here’s her email” and “Why don’t you get married? Everyone is asking? What will people think? bla bla bla”
But a couple points I agree with:
Romance isn’t worth a dogs nutsack in the long run. In fact, the etymology of the word is “of Rome”, pertaining to the fantasy stories coming out of the old capital during the Roman empire.
It is nice she made an attempt to understand the tradition, rather than a complete “it’s backwards” lash out. but in my view, she didn’t go deeper in her analysis
Seeing as how when my grandparents were trying their darnedest to hook me mum up with a nice boy she ran away from home and moved to Dehli, I don’t think I’m getting an arranged marriage, even if I wanted one. My parents would probably ask me if I was feeling all right.
“So their actually using domain specific knowledge “
So they’re actually using..
BTW, what does grok mean?
i think it is important to destroy the dichotomy between arranged & non-arranged marriages. there’s a spectrum. e.g., “set ups” have a bit of the arranged aspect, while many “arranged” marriages involve a lot of choice within the sample of possible potential mates selected by parents/relatives. the “western” and “indian” norms lean toward one end of the spectrum, but there is a lot of within group variation and both tendencies are average exhibit admixture.
Grok.
Huh? Of course romance alone cannot sustain a marriage, obviously. But come now… romance tied together with good bedroom loving do tons for a marriage. A little romance through the days can make ya hot to trot. Romance and good sex = less fighting (generally) and more connection.
Actually, Prudie generally gives pretty good advice; she’s no-nonsense. Check out her reponse to the letter below this one. Not that I regularly read her or send in letters or anything like that.
*Actually, I Prudie and Kaus are my two regular Slate reads.
I don’t know this woman or her mother particularly, but in a general Indian society sense:
certain compatibility = from the same community
mutual respect = respect for the tradition of marriage, and to never end it, come hell or high water.
I think my mom was filling in for Prudie.
New headline — Slate Says ‘Yes’ to Arranged Marriage
it’s more about the “assist†than the “arrange†and she didn’t get all westernized-aggro on our kundis about oppressive traditions
Heh. Nice.
Romance isn’t worth a dogs nutsack in the long run
Probably depends on how you define romance. It doesn’t have to be about the flowers and the champagne all the time. In fact, that sort of thing probably does wear thin after a while. But there are other kinds of romance too, IMO.
aahh… ‘kiss them for me’
miss anna.. music lover extraordinaire..
prudie makes sense. some marriages work, arranged or misarranged. some marriages don’t.
refreshing read, thanks anna and tipster.
I’m not sure it’s that cut and dry. I wouldn’t have believed this concept of “mutal compatibilty” business unless I’d experienced it for myself. There is a lot more to it than meets the eye. After seeing quite a few cousins getting set up in perfectly happy marriages, and having see so many marriages entered in non traditionally fall apart and having found the right man for me thru an ‘introduction’ I no longer can knock any methods of meeting the right person. There is no magic method nor is one way more right than the other but I do understand now.
Well, just look at the synonyms from dictionary.com:
“1. story, fiction. 4. falsehood, fable. 6. allure, fascination, exoticism.”
I think it’s pretty clear what romance is referring to. In addition, there is a clear implication that the female will be the primary, if not sole recipient of said “romantic” acts. The implication could explain why most people defending it’s place within long term relationships.. are indeed women.
TBM – yeah dude. Your mom and my mom.
Really? As someone whose parents routinely attempt to pimp her out, I think it’s just that their priorities for a good relationship are different from ours — they look at financial stability, reputation of the family, level of education, BLAH BLAH. Whereas our criteria are more about what we have in common with people and if there’s any chemistry, and I guess some of that other stuff is kind of important too.
We should adopt an effort to switch the term here in America from “arranged marriage” to “assisted marriage.” Arranged marriage does sound a little scary if you don’t know what it’s about. I’m sure extreme and very sad cases like #1 do happen but the non-forceful assist is more common, no? (Lest we go off on this topic, emotional manipulation is one thing; FORCE is another.)
Rupa: We should start calling them the ‘non-forceful assist’. That would be pretty awesome.
Prudie is my guilty pleasure!
Well I’m sort of like that woman, I’m in my 30’s, got a well paid job in the US. My parents live in India, they have never suggested that they would arrange/assist or whatever, but my relatives have every time I’m visiting.
If you ask me, arranged marriages suck at least if you are a woman (I’m a man), it’s the woman that gives up everything and follows her man, and I know it happends in love marriages too, but not to that extent. The idea of me going back to India and asking a well educated woman to drop her career and follow me to the US to be my housewife sounds revolting to me.
Exactly my point. They look at it from more of a group dynamic, “please the folks around you” perspective. People always say to me, “oh but they have your best interests at heart!” No one contests this assertion, only someone morbid would assert they are trying to hurt you by arranging or assisting or whatever word you’d like to use. They don’t see it as a question of “finding a good relationship”, it’s of no concern. Its a question of “find a relationship to be presentable in society, to not be a misfit, and ultimately, to procreate” Good or Bad doesn’t even enter the equation.
Romance and good sex = less fighting (generally)
hmm… not so sure…. its more like… Romance + less fighting = more sex.
Romance + MORE fighting = MORE MAKE-UP SEX! Prioritize, people. 😉
“1. story, fiction. 4. falsehood, fable. 6. allure, fascination, exoticism.”
Well, I’m going to fixate on words like allure and fascination. Men can find things alluring and fascinating too. For example, my idea of a nice, romantic evening is going to a baseball game, followed by ice-cream. My spouse likes baseball and ice-cream too, so we get to spend time together doing something we both enjoy. Can’t see anything wrong with that sort of romance, really. Can’t even see where the woman does all the receiving and the man is being gypped.
Right on hema. Romance can be as simple as holding hands or a sweet text message or cuddlig together under a warm blanket to watch a good movie.
I love Prudie. But I’m also not that surprised by her response, as you are. This view is pretty common in the West now, I think. I’m so over the arranged marriage hype, and I think a lot of people–desi and non–are, too.
All I can say is, as an example of romance, this is clearly an outlier. It’s obvious that romance used in present day context refers to male actions towards the female, of the roses, poetry, etc.. variety. All the stuff you see in Disney.
Do you know what the infield fly rule is?
As a gypsy, I don’t like the racist pejorative employed in this comment. When you say “gypped” you don’t just discriminate against my people, you maintain institutionalized hierarchies and further the oppression of a group which is possibly the last “safe” target for mockery. We can’t say “faggot” or “re+arded” but “gypped” is allowed? In the immortal and eloquent words of Stephanie Tanner: “How rude!”
Romance + More Fighting = breakup + re-unifying romance = one wild night 😉
Romance + MORE fighting = MORE MAKE-UP SEX! Prioritize, people. 😉
tried that, never worked for me.
More to the point… I think what’s mildly dangerous is for parents (esp if they live 5000miles away) to use priorities that work there in india but are not relevant here in the US. For example, when my parents were pimping me around (didn’t work out for them), they narrowed the search down to one caste of gultis. Perhaps a valid criteria if I were living in India circa 1965. As a result, I got emails from them about girls who mostly grew up in rural India (I grew up in Bangalore). When you plan to live in the US, language, caste and esp “fair-and-loveliness” play a very minor role compared to financial background growing up, urban/rural, etc.
Wow. I have to admit to having no sense of the etymology of the word, so my apologies for any offense caused. I’ve never heard the term used as a racist pejorative before. Again, sorry.
Do you know what the infield fly rule is?
Yes. But tell me first how you feel about the DH. And Dice K…because you know, because that’s all anyone talks about anymore.
I gotcha, HMF. I can only speak for my family, but I know that to them, one’s group identity IS their personal identity. Having grown up in America I personally don’t identify with whateverreligioussect whatevercaste from wherever, but obviously my experience is vastly different from my parents’. In American independence and self-identity are way more valued than where my parents are from in India. As far as pleasing the crowd with the “right” match, don’t you think they’re more interested in you being pleased by the folks around you?
You don’t mean all parents/relations who encourage arranged marriages, right? Sorry, I’m not sure…and my parents don’t care what I do as long as I’m happy…but I know based off the many years of not giving a rat’s ass about what the Indian community expects, my parents would look for someone who makes me happy.
Not that they’re getting that opportunity in the near future, but if I was hitting a dry spell, I would trust their judgment. Augh god, I weirded myself out.
No problem. It was my gentle riff on this. 😉
Maybe match.com and speed dating and people waiting until they are older to marry, so have more fix-ups has changed notions about, er, fix-ups? In the West, I mean? Besides, I live in a traditionally Jewish neighborhood and fix-ups seem pretty common here, too.
When it comes to marriage? truly, I don’t. Individualistic concerns are just secondary.
i.e. Personal Identity doesn’t exist, or at the very least, is secondary.
As for all the people getting defensive, with the “Well MY family has MY interests at heart first, so THERE. Nanny Nanny Poo poo.” responses. I can’t challenge your personal experience, but based on the research I’ve done on the marriage institution and its development through the subcontinent – individual concerns just fall by the wayside. Why do you think “matrimonial” sites exist in the first place?
LOL, now change my diaper. Because not all parents are like the ones who care about our interests. I get that. I was just doing one of those “I’m in the minority!” fanfare bits and now it’s done.
I think (note: not the be-all end-all truth of the world) matrimonial sites also exist because some (note: also read as “not everyone”) people are convinced they aren’t capable of looking out for their own interests.
Traditional Hindu arranged marriages involve marrying someone chosen by your parents from your subcaste, after consulting the stars. According to Razib, 30-40% of South Asians marry non-South Asians. Among those marrying South Asians, I am willing to bet the clear majority are inter-caste or inter-region. Even those within acceptable traditional parameters are often based on meetups or “dates.” Perhaps as few as twenty percent of marriages are traditional arranged here.
But we’re not talking about the subcontinent. Aren’t we talking about the institute of marriage in our culture here? I agree that individual concerns are far less of a priority in the desh. I understand why, too — in my family the girl still goes to live with her husband and his whole family, the whole kit-and-caboodle of tradition. It’s more important that you find a social group that offers a stable environment where you will be loved and treated well rather than someone who has interests that match yours — you’re marrying the family, not just your husband. (Duh.)
THUS the entire gist of this post — relationships and dating are way different here, hence the problems in priority when the p-units start the fix-ups. MD, I like “fix-ups!” Let’s use that 🙂
I’m talking about people who grew up here, but have parents the grew up there. They bring with them their traditions and perceptions and that’s perfectly fine I’d do the same thing if I were in their position. As intelligent beings who can carefully analyze both processes, it’s up to them to have the courage to discard a system if it’s inherently flawed, (based on the above mentioned motivations).
Eiugh. I didn’t finish my thought —
HMF, I’m not trying to just prolong an argument here; in fact I think we may agree on some basic principles. What I wanted to say was — if you feel like your family is more concerned with YOU pleasing those around you rather than your own personal happiness, that really sucks and I’m sorry. I just question that this is how it is “mostly” done.
Actually, maybe this is a male/female thing. Maybe my whole “your parents want you to be happy with those around you” is ingrained in me because I’m a woman. My mom once told me that it was common in our society for people to marry their 2nd/3rd cousins. They were much more comfortable with it than we are, and she said they actually preferred to marry girls off within the family because then they knew the family, and they knew their girl would be treated right. (I still think it’s kind of ick.)
Here’s the subtlety I’m trying to make. They are interested in my personal happiness, but subconsciously, they feel I will be happy when I’m serving “large order societal” goals – ie making others happy.
According to this book:
Ramu, G.N. Family and Caste in Urban India : A case study. (c. 1977)
Studies showed primary rationale for marriage was continuation of the kula (lineage), not personal happiness or “love”
HMF, that study is so old, it’s almost ineligible for an arranged marriage. 😉
No one knows that better than me, but somehow I don’t think McDonalds and cellphones will really change the attitude.