From the NYT, a story about how “one pristine town in some of Britain’s most untouched countryside” voted to allow an unused Methodist church to become a mosque (thanks, Ardy):
The narrow vote by the municipal authorities marked the end of a bitter struggle by the tiny Muslim population to establish a place of worship, one that will put a mosque in an imposing stone Methodist church that had been used as a factory since its congregation dwindled away 40 years ago…
Britain may continue to regard itself as a Christian nation. But practicing Muslims are likely to outnumber church-attending Christians in several decades, according to a recent survey by Christian Research, a group that specializes in documenting the status of Christianity in Britain.
The mosque will exist because of one “passionate young professional of Pakistani descent”, who sounds tolerant and moderate in the article:
“We’ve been trying to get a place of worship for 30 years,†said Sheraz Arshad, 31, the Muslim leader here, his voice rattling around the empty old Mount Zion Methodist Church that will house his mosque. “It’s fitting it is a church: it is visually symbolic, the coming together of religions.â€
This town thought they were “safe”, they were actually proud of being Mosque-free…
With a population of 14,500, a Norman castle and an Anglican church established in 1122, Clitheroe is tucked away in Lancashire County in the north. People here liked to think they represented a last barrier to the mosques that had become features in surrounding industrial towns.
Arshad faced many hurdles before attaining his goal:
Often there was booing at council meetings, and, he said, cries of “Go home, Paki!â€
The authorities’ official reasoning for the rejections was generally that a mosque would attract outsiders — a veiled reference to Muslims — to Clitheroe.
Letters to the local newspaper, The Clitheroe Advertiser and Times, warned that what had happened in Blackburn and Preston, two bigger nearby industrial towns with substantial Muslim populations, would happen to Clitheroe.
Arshad responded by doing something I wish more South Asians would do– he got involved in his community and by community, I mean the one beyond brown.
Mr. Arshad decided to get organized and demonstrate that he was a moderate Muslim who could take part in all the town’s affairs.
Do try and disregard the unfortunate name he chose for such a well-intentioned idea. Not that my puerile mind could… 😉
He formed an interfaith scout group — Beaver Scouts — that honored many religious occasions, including the Taoist and Jewish new years. He established the Medina Islamic Education Center as an interfaith group for adults, and persuaded the local council to allow the group to lead a key committee. He organized a series of lectures on global conflict that attracted important academics.
They anticipated and prepared for drama…
On Dec. 21, the night of the vote on the mosque, the council chambers overflowed with 150 people. The police were poised outside. The vote was 7 to 5 for the mosque; there was no violence…
The fact that Arshad was a local certainly helped:
The church’s demarcation as a place of worship in the town’s planning records helped carry the day, said Geoffrey Jackson, chief executive of Trinity Partnership, a social welfare agency, and a Methodist who backed Mr. Arshad.
So did Mr. Arshad’s demeanor. “He’s a top lad, with a Lancashire accent, born and bred here, and educated at Clitheroe Grammar,†Mr. Jackson said.
All’s not entirely well just yet:
But the fight is hardly over. Beneath the official vote lies a river of resentment among those who fear that the broader patterns in Britain will emerge here. In one sign of the tensions, some of the church’s windows have been smashed.
On Arshad’s ideas for his hard-won house of worship:
As for the new mosque, there will be no obvious changes to the church’s exterior, though the cross at the top will come down.
Women will be welcome to pray in the main prayer hall, “not in a cubby hole in the corner,†Mr. Arshad said.
“We don’t want a dome,†he said. “That looks pretty in Egypt and Turkey, but in a market town in England it looks like a big onion. There will be no external call to prayer. What matters is what goes on inside.â€
I am really suprised about this vote,it is very good to see that some folks are opening up to give Muslims a place of worship.
More importantly, that Muslims are willing to work within the system rather than against it – especially when facing overwhelming odds and stinging resentment.
I’m not at all surprised, britain is by far the most tolerant country in Europe. Try this in Scandinavia, Germany or France…
Yes, I think this man should be commended for the way he chose to follow this through.
I was a little surprised, after Jack Straw’s comments about veiling and the suicide bombings on the tube, there’s been so much polarization. From the article linked above:
This is great news.
On a (somewhat) related note, has anyone been watching Little Mosque on the Prairie (available on Youtube)? It could be a more tongue-in-cheek version of the above story.
The latent racism of the townspeople is disheartening. It’s sad that Arshad had to show himself as a “liberal” muslim in order to gain the approval of the council. Makes one appreciate the US.
Now when will people be able to erect a church in Saudi Arabia? Oh my bad.
It’s sad, but depressingly necessary, right? As unfortunate as it all is, it seems like what gets attention is the Wahhabist behavior, the potential for home-grown terrorist cells and other extremes. When the default for your community isn’t moderate, it’s not shocking that Arshad had to take pains to differentiate himself from what the town feared.
But aren’t the majority of Muslims in the U.S. “moderates”, whatever that means? There have been previous threads here where this was hashed out, but the Muslim community here seems to have little in common with their cousins in England. America’s Muslims integrated themselves in their new culture more than England’s did, and they are spread out vs. concentrated in a few places etc. Razib can break it down better than I can, hence my choice of handles.
american muslims are ethnically diverse.
they are closer to 1% of the population than 3%.
62% have a 4-year university degree or higher.
there are many differences.
The Hindu temple in Bristol is also an ex-church (I think). In fact the address for the temple is 163 Church road
Vikram- What are you implying? The Saudis object to churches for aesthetic, not theological reasons 🙂
some scary stuff:
Of British Muslims aged 16-24, 37% would prefer to live under sharia in Britain, 37% would like to send their children to Islamic state schools and — most incredibly — 36% think Muslims converting to another religion should be punished by death. Young British Muslims who say they “admire organisations like Al-Qaeda, which are prepared to fight the West†amount to 13%. For British Muslims aged over 55, the figures are much lower, at 17%, 19%, 19% and 3% respectively.
there’s a lot of alienation going on amongst young british muslims (overwhelmingly brown, majority pakistani in familial origin). here in the USA muslims are busy internalizing talking points about how their religion is about peace before they go back to studying for the MCAT. a lot of the fear in england has to be contextualized by 7-7.
p.s. the article that anna cites was sourced with a lot of ‘data’ by something called ‘christian research.’ i strongly suspect that they are scare mongering. i would bet there won’t be more practicing muslims than christians in a generation in england.
The fact that that a former church has now been commissioned for use as a mosque is nothing short of amazing in my eyes. All involved, including the townspeople, should be proud of themselves for being so progressive.
Had this been a Hindu temple in India, imagine the politicians swooping down like vultures…
America’s Muslims integrated themselves in their new culture more than England’s did
one thing i have noticed that is that some muslims (generally native born) are ‘protestantizing’ the discourse of their faith. they don’t do it consciously, but it is happening because they interact with the outside culture enough that those inputs are now reshaping their conception of their religion from what their parents taught them. for example, most sunni muslims accept a predestination as normative due to the omniscience of god. but i have read/talked to american muslims who reject this and appeal to a traditionally minority view which emphasizes individual choice and action. this is in keeping with the ‘american way.’ the problem with britain, from what i can tell, is that the muslims are creating (to a greater extent) their own insulated subculture and identifying with the world wide ummah more than their fellow citizens. they are evolving creates as well, their islam changes, but necessarily in a direction toward the mainstream.
Arshad responded by doing something I wish more South Asians would do— he got involved in his community and by community, I mean the one beyond brown.
Amen! The necessity is sad, but everything thereafter is inspiring. Plaudits for Mr. Arshad. That’s exactly what we need more of. His persistence and struggle in the face of so much frustration is fabulous. I love his syncretic aesthetic. When people are willing to work so hard and think so hard about their house of prayer, it speaks volumes about how much the prayer actually matters to them. Next time I make it to the sceptr’d isle, Clitheroe may be high on my list of destinations.
Wonderful post to start the week off with, Anna!
I love his syncretic aesthetic. When people are willing to work so hard and think so hard about their house of prayer, it speaks volumes about how much the prayer actually matters to them.
the different aspects on their own would be laudable or praiseworthy (e.g., engaging in ecumenical activities, not wanting to disturb the local architecture), but taken together they suggest someone who knows that the future of islam in the UK isn’t going to be simply transplanting saudi arabia into lancashire.*
The fact that that a former church has now been commissioned for use as a mosque is nothing short of amazing in my eyes.
This has much to do with the decline of Christianity in England – and Western Europe, as it does with “tolerance”. There are no Methodists to fight for their Church anymore.
Yes, silly Hindus for having a historical memory of razed temples. Tell me, in a nation of 800 million Hindus is this hypothetical “mosque to be” in active use by worshippers ? The point is that this particular church in the UK was in disuse due to falling attendance, a macro trend throughout Europe. Furthermore this church is likely to be government property. Would your hypothetical Indian temple be owned by the govt. (as in the case of the church) or by a private temple trust ? If you are going to bait Hindus, try to do it intelligently
Pondatti
I’m just saying, if there is one country where it could happen it’s britain, it wouldn’t happen any where else in Europe, and certainly not in the ME or India. Are you surprised that there where some opposition? Of course there would be.
louiecypher
In your dreams that a hindu temple in india could ever be turned into a muslim prying ground. Hindu baiting or not, you know it aint gonna happend as long as you live. We are still contesting a temple ground that might have been a hindu temple a couple of centurys ago, as you may be aware of.
How about converting a mosque in Pakistan to a hindu temple. it’s right that muslims demand tolerance but howabout showing some.
these comparisons with india are not necessary. muslims in india who want a worship place would not really need to turn a hindu temple into one. they would probably build one (and to that there may be opposition depending on where they want to build it and other factors). i don’t know of too many unused hindu temples that are not probably part of the archaeological survey of india and thus historical monuments. christians and muslims in india today are not likely to want to worship in “idol-filled” hindu temples anyways. the architecture is just not suitable for their purposes and the temple would have to be totally demolished or drastically altered. so it’s the land they may want, not the structure itself.
“In your dreams that a hindu temple in india could ever be turned into a muslim prying ground. Hindu baiting or not, you know it aint gonna happend as long as you live.”
and how possible do you think it is for a mosque in india to be turned into a hindu worship place without opposition? (or a church for that matter?) and i’m not referring to the babri masjid here, which is a problem of the sort that plagues jerusalem where muslims and jews and christians fight over holy sites, or spain where muslims want the right to worship at the cordoba cathedral.
What’s your point ? Ritam implied that the visceral reaction by Hindus is some Hindu specific pathology. Are you going to tell me that a mosque to temple conversion is something that happens without issue in majority Muslim countries? You choose to engage in self flagellation over this, don’t expect the rest of us to join you & Ritam.
As an aside, I am not in favor of what happened in Babri Masjid. It’s symptomatic of larger law & order issues in India. Simple minds tend to conflate any self indentification as a Hindu with Hindutva
and i’m not sure why hindus were singled out. try turning a church into a mosque or vice versa in india and see the reaction. or a buddhist temple into a church or a mosque or vice versa. again, india is a different society with its own dynamics and these simple comparisons don’t work.
“How about converting a mosque in Pakistan to a hindu temple. it’s right that muslims demand tolerance but howabout showing some.”
again, unless the mosque was on a piece of land the hindus wanted, there’s no need for them to convert a mosque. they woud probably just build a new one and may meet with opposition for a variety of reasons.
I sympathise with your point, but as this guy was from Pakistan, it would be more fair to ask when they will erect a church in Pakistan, which, I’m sure you know is moot, since there are already many churches there.
Erecting a church in S.A. is more like putting a mosque in the Vatican. Another better comparison might be related to putting a church in Dubai since so many of its inhabitants are Europeans and presumably Christians.
but as this guy was from Pakistan, it would be more fair to ask when they will erect a church in Pakistan,
he wasn’t from pakistan. his father was from pakistan. on the one hand, people want muslims to “go native” and assimilate to local cultural norms, but on the other you want them to account for the manifest barbarity which is normative in most muslim countries? look, when you label yourself a “muslim” you do call down to yourself an association with a worldwide group of people, most of whom are primitive and barbaric in their outlook. but, that doesn’t mean that that’s the sum totality of someone’s being. as the article noted, he’s a local.
…perhaps the thread would benefit from comparing apples with apples instead of apples with oranges? the comparison between apples and oranges is worthwhile, in other contexts. but there’s a lot that can be said about the assimilation of muslims into the british scene of interest without having to bring hindu-muslim relations in brownland into it. i mean, articles like this would be more relevant to the diasporic community me thinks….
On reading this, I was immediately reminded of my own parents’ experience in starting a mosque in our small upstate ny town. Before being able to raise the funds to purchase their own building, they worked in conjunction with an area church for use of their facilities for prayers on Fridays and social events when church actitivites were not in session. I never thought much of it at the time, but now, that easy acceptance of shared religious space and accomodation strikes me as pretty amazing.
I’m glad to see the individual in question in this article worked hard, within the system to achieve his goal of creating a mosque. I hope he continues to use that avenue as a means of encouraging others in his religious community to become more active in the community at large.
I was also reminded of one of the first Hindu temples in New Jersey, in Metuchen (the town adjacent to Edison, NJ), which was a huge part of my childhood.
Try this in Scandinavia, Germany or France…
Try this in the United States. In the last couple of years, it has become very difficult to build mosques in the US.
Erecting a church in S.A. is more like putting a mosque in the Vatican.
Well Mecca maybe and possibly Medina. Saudi Arabia is a little different from the Vatican.
Well Mecca maybe and possibly Medina. Saudi Arabia is a little different from the Vatican.
mebee like having a mosque in jerusalem? oh, oops!
Anna, once you pointed it out, I became incapable of disregarding it. He’s accommodating and bridge building and all, and I guess what happens in rural England stays in rural England for now, but there will surely be mosques with proper domes there one day, just as there are 19th C Gothick churches with active congregations all over the Subcont. The NYTimes’ use of “pristine” is bothersome, of course, esp. as there are de-consecrated churches in NYC and up and down the East Coast. I was once asked to decorate a former church with a Simpsons theme for Hallowe’en, and said vampires, yes, Simpsons no. I kinda wish more people would go to church, so maybe now they will go to a mosque instead if they are welcomed there.
The big problem in the US is actually not mosques but the unrestricted building of mega churches with health spas and book stores which pay no taxes. Silly laws by Congress have now made it very difficult to stop the construction of mega churches which are basically huge corporations no different from a Wal Mart Supercenter.
it is interesting, the juxtaposition of the “new british” vs an “old building”. two cheers for mr. arshad’s perseverance.
when will brown folks show the same passion in fund raising for social work ? why did this guy not fight for converting this unused structure to a shelter for homeless ? why did the Patels not organize a fund raising in upstate NY to feed the poor ? I have this uncanny feeling that this one dimensional focus on religion spells doom for brown folks. Apropos to an earlier post where people were debating western (i.e. white) povs on India. How many of you think that apalling conditions of the majority of brown folks are as a result of(at least in parts) staunch religious beliefs ?
related, there’s a mosque in jersey city that used to be a synagogue, still has the star of david in the windows too, i think. it makes me smile when i have it, it seems like a nice juxtaposition of two faiths that don’t always tolerate being in the same space.
i don’t know, it seems that a lot of religious groups (brown or otherwise) do a lot of charity work. when the tsunami hit south east asia, i heard of lot of the temples and mosques doing a whole lot of fundraising and shipping goods and organizing aid. why blame them for organizing on the basis of something that is important to them?
It’s rather symbolic that where defunct churches were converted into shops previously (in the UK – see the cover of Steve Bruce’s book God is Dead), or a nightclub (wasn’t there one in Manhattan, in the village maybe?), they are now being recyled, as it were, for other religions?
Razib, the protestantisation is definitely noticeable among Muslims in the US but is IMO most remarkable in the phenomenon of televangelists like Amr Khaled.
Mam, the six-pointed star is used as a motif in mosques in India too, and you can see it on the facade of Humayun’s Tomb in Delhi – never fails to make visiting Amrikis exclaim.
really? i’ve never seen it on mosques in jersey but perhaps i haven’t really been looking. Do they usually display them prominently? The blue star is a main feature in the window decor. After a frustrating and exhaustive google, I can’t find any pictures of the said mosque, maybe i’ll walk by later and snap a picture.
dipesh
You are quite right. These horrible brown people are so busy with religion (unlike everyone else) that they cannot progress.
Also, have you noticed the disgusting messes they eat, er, with their hands? And the smell !! eeeeyooooh
louiecypher
I’m old enough to handle that all people don’t agree with me. You don’t want to join me in the self flagelattion, no problem really.
My country has a problem with tolerans, it doesn’t mean that muslim countries are not less tolerant. I perfectly well know they are less tolernt, I had the displeasure of living with my parents in Oman when my father worked there. So whats my point? Oman sucks I certainly hope India won’t become as intolerant as that.
Well, I expect the tensions will only increase in Britain as the % of Pakistanis in the pop rises.
Christianity is basically dead. Whereas, Islam is at the pinnacle of fanaticism. Just try to think of the last time you came across a Christian suicide bomber.
The Times london article linked by Razib in #29 is SHOCKING !!!! I cant believe that British Muslims are getting paid to forcibly convert young un-suspecting non-muslim girls !!
I have no words to describe my shock at this …. My god people do anything in the name of religion.
The thing about Muslims, even though they don’t make their presence discreet, they lack much political power. So I don’t know why the native peoples of wherever feel so threatened.
Just try to think of the last time you came across a Christian suicide bomber.
both hezbollah (yes, you read that right) in lebanon* & the PFLP in palestine have used suicide bombers. are all the tamil tiger suicide bombers from hindu backgrounds? are none of them catholic? (yes, i know that the tigers are a anti-religious organization). i agree with the overall point about the association between suicide bombing and islam, but it isn’t necessary nor deterministic.
source: Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism by Robert Pape