So, towards the end of my essay on acceptance, a commenter thoughtfully asked me to clarify what I meant by mentioning the fact that Nina Paley had lived in Kerala more recently than I had even visited it. Here’s what I said, which prompted her inquiry:
Nina has been to Kerala far more recently than I have; my last visit was back in the dark ages of 1989. In fact, she lived there, which is something I’ll probably never be able to claim. Who the hell am I or anyone else for that matter, to pull rank over that?
Did Nina’s stay in my parents’ home state give her carte blanche? No, of course it doesn’t. When I said that I wasn’t going to “pull rank”, I meant that I was going to acknowledge that others, even white others, might be more familiar with what everyone expects me to be an expert on, and because of that, I especially loathe the idea of playing the race card, i.e. I am desi, therefore I know more about (and/or get to restrict the unbrown from) my culture. If you read my post, you’ll know that I have a very intimate and poignant reason for why the part I italicized resonates with me.
I appreciate that Nagasai and Amitabh both opened a respectful dialogue about how they feel about Nina’s art but I also am known to be a fan of keeping threads on-topic, so I thought I’d spin this discussion off in to its own separate post, because the issues at play here are fascinating and significant.
What does Nina’s artwork mean to you?
What role does race play in all of this– how many of us would have the same issues we do if her name were Nina Patel vs. Nina Paley?
And how far do these “rules” go? Do some of you have a problem with the fact that I’m writing this post (i.e. that I’m a Christian, commenting on the appropriateness of Hindu imagery in art)? Inquiring and potentially bored mutineers want to know!Before we get started, there are two things I would like to disclose:
It seems that many of you know each other and Nina in real life, and the natural instinct is to be emotional and defensive of your friends
1) I do know Nina in real life. She has near-perfect attendance at NYC meetups and I have been able to befriend her because of it. Having typed that, I am not writing from a place where I am emotional and defensive about my friend; rather, I am supportive of a mutinous community member whom I have met and whom I would vouch for in terms of intention and integrity. This isn’t seventh grade and I’m not a mean girl circling the wagons ’round my BFF. This is a very special place and I think the fact that many of us have stretched online relationships formed here offline is a huge part of why that’s the case.
{Incidentally, this is also why I think meetups are more than mere frivolity; when you look someone in the eye, learn their “real” name and hear them laugh while trying some luscious ma ki dal with them, all of that contributes to a fuller, richer sense of whom that person is. This isn’t sorority rush either– I have never met a commenter I didn’t like. I’m always awed and touched when people make the effort to come hang out with us. So please do so, in the future. Not just because it adds to your “Mut-cred” in terms of how future comments from you will be interpreted, but because it’s always fun. :)}
2) Because so many of us are at work, I painted a very shabby halter bikini top on Nina’s cartoon, to de-NSFW it. That rack was driving me to distraction. 😉 Forgive me, Miss Paley? The unmolested version of the image is here, for your consideration:
The comment thread on Nina’s own blog where people (mutineers included) initially discussed this image is here.
What I found most interesting was how though the symbolism in her drawing definitely evoked Kali, she never explicitly stated that she was depicting this very beloved Goddess. This reminds me of how all art is open to interpretation, and how the truth we see in it is often our own. I also think the fact that the severed head in one of “Desire’s” left hands is Nina’s own softened any potential offense I might have taken.
I’m not trying to say that how I feel about this image is what’s right or real, nor am I ignorant of the fact that if this were a depiction of my deity or one of his Saints, I’d be particularly sensitive to potential disrespect, much in the same way I am here when some of you (regulars included) have made throw-away comments which aren’t kind to Christianity. I don’t know how I would feel if I saw a cartoon of Jesus holding hands with a blow-up doll, but I also don’t think that example is analogous; I don’t associate Jesus with porntastic accessories. I do, however, associate Kali with raw energy, sexuality and power and if I am wrong to do so, I look forward to being corrected.
If anything struck me, I think I was more shocked about the placement of the “eye” than the castrated bit o’ man which the figure is shown holding. In fact, that last aspect of this cartoon almost delighted my inner warrior princess. Well, it definitely made her giggle. 😉
When I asked one of my closest friends if HIS TamBrahm sensibilities were offended, this is what ensued:
ANNA: I have a bloggy question which I feel funny asking you, since you’re hardly uber-religious ;)…but does this offend you?
SK: It shows ignorance on the part of the artist. It shows patience and understanding (about how these guys are ignorant) on the part of the Hindus. And it shows how advanced a religion we are as compared to others.
It does offend me, but not to a point where I would make a big deal out of it…hold on isn’t this … Nina from SM?
ANNA: Yes it’s Nina and I don’t think her depiction is inaccurate. Kali is fearsome, with severed heads et al…and I for one dig the imagery of her castrating someone and flaunting it. 😀
If I were a blood-drunken goddess who just ripped someone’s d!@% off, I’d wave it around, too
SK: 🙂
ANNA: ah, wait…already did that in college 😉
SK: WHAT
ANNA: So, why are you offended? What’s so wrong? The severed penis?
SK: no no no…
ANNA: the fact that she’s naked? b/c I was always taught that Kali IS. She only wears maya. Is it the eyes? She’s drunk on blood.
Come on, out with it. You’re slow this morning. Kappi kudicho?
SK: no… no kappi and I am doing like three things at one. It’s about her being naked. As a figure that someone else prays to…I think there should have been a little more thought. I never said it was not funny, but just that it could hurt the sentiments of certain people. And you always have to careful of who you hurt. Does that make sense?
ANNA: SK. she IS naked. Nina’s depiction of her as nanga is accurate, AFAIK.
SK: ooh I had no clue… like you mean normally she is naked?
ANNA: Oh for heaven’s sake. SHE IS CLOTHED IN NOTHING BUT MAYA. does maya cover anything when YOU wear it??
I love how people get pissed about something they don’t even know thoroughly. 😉
SK: nope and I was not pissed
ANNA: From wiki– “She is often depicted naked with Maya as her only covering and is shown as very dark, as she has no permanent qualities — she will continue to exist even when the universe ends. It is therefore believed that the concepts of color, light, good, bad do not apply to her — she is the pure, un-manifested energy, the Adi-shakti.â€
SK: Hmmm. Interesting.
::
All right, mutineers. I know I’m possibly going to regret even commencing this thread, but my inner optimist thinks that we can all behave and be civil to one another, even as we discuss such inflammatory concepts as religion, appropriateness, respect and place.
I have no qualms about shutting the thread down if we’re not learning anything, i.e. if it decays in to funda-spew, if it’s off-topic or if it’s just ad-hominem attacks on Nina. Please use Nagasai and Amitabh as examples of how one can fully disagree with or disapprove of the image in question without being all Massengill about it. Thank you, don’t flame through. 🙂
Can’t read the whole thread right now, but in a nutshell, this is a really great depiction of Kali.
For reference, here’s today’s incarnation of the ever-changing wikipedia article on Kali.
Kush,
I’m not saying historically there isn’t. I’m saying there is no ‘popular’ image. i.e. when people see the depiction of kali, without Nina having to say it is kali, Hindus know who she is talking about. The only ‘popular image’ that I would recognize immediately having to do with Islam is a picture of the Kabbah. Even with the dutch cartoons, they had to label it is as the prophet-it’s not an image that was immediately recognizable. Maybe cuz my house was relatively orthodox, but I can’t think of any popular Muslim icon, but then again, maybe that was the whole reason to make it haram in the first place.
to me it doesn’t seem that practicing hindus are the target audience here. they’d definetly be offended by the image. i am. and i can look away.
nina’s ethnicity although should not be questioned. nina has the right to do her version of kali as an artist. as a non-christian i agree more with jesus christ being depicted as a darker skin man, realizing that my irish and italian friend won’t hear any of it.
a hindu deity tearing out a circumcized cock at the stump is axully raison for joie.
kali da avenja takes out the muslim/catholic/jewish vermin.
howzzatt
bro! I underwear!!
“If I’d set out to draw Kali as Kali, she’d look different, but the picture is of Desire, who looks like that.”
interesting explanation for this piece 🙂 thanks. my curious nature would ask: not why does kali look like desire but why does desire look like kali in your mind and not some other female icon, western or indian? thanks.
Maitri, do you think attending Uni gave me a skewed idea about desis? As in, thinking “they” were like everyone else to the point of not realizing “they” were a “they” to begin with? Was there racial/cultural discrimination at Uni I was unaware of? I wasn’t very well integrated into high school life, in fact I hated high school, but I don’t recall desi-ness being a big deal there. But I was pretty out of it, socially.
what bothers me most is that Nina didn’t spend a considerable time in bengal. She spent time in the south, so how about a uber sexy come hither Meenakshi. Ma Kali does represent adi shakti but once the tongue is out it shows restraint of unbridled passions. So Nina the tongue shouldn’t have been out in your pic and then the severed penis fits in perfectly. By the way i grew up knowing that one had to be uncompromisingly honest when before Kali, so be careful!
Somehow the penis fits – I mean conceptually. Perhaps the penis is a visual reference to the Shiva Lingam and hence to Shiva himself. Not a modern day castrating “b,” Kali in this painting is a depiction of feminine might and the de facto ruler of the universe, a theory firmly rooted in many religious lores and even Shakespearean drama.
On the other hand, it is none of that, but rather a lazy artistic sensationalism guaranteed to win a few accolades. Salman Rushdie made a living out of the genre.
I hadn’t heard of this artist before I read this this blog post at http://zooeylive.blogspot.com/2006/12/of-cultural-appropriation-and-white.html. I think Zooey’s critique is on-point. I do wish more Mutineers had a basic understanding of post-colonial theory. There seems to always be this huge crowd of commenters defending problematic stuff every time I read this site.
I think there’s something to be said for aesthetically pleasing expression as well. By this standard, the Van Gogh poster I had up in college would not be art because it did not bother anyone.
Perhaps you missed the following statement regarding what you accidentally misinterpreted on Anna’s behalf:
Since you missed that, I don’t expect you to also notice that the original image was below the fold. We’ve received gentle complaints in the past from readers who point out that it might be kind of us to remember that they sate their SM-fetish when they’re supposed to be looking at spreadsheets, not breasts, no matter how cartoonish. The bikini top was a nod to that, not puritan hang-ups.
Bhim boy is that you ?
Thanks JangiAAhMan, I missed “circumcized cock” part. But it could be a Hindu one with this
Perhaps you missed the sentence after the one you highlighted, when she said “That rack was driving me to distraction. ;)”
I don’t particularly care if the boobs were a big deal to Anna or not. And sure, the NSFW consideration is important. But I defend my reading of that statement, too. The point is that even when you understand the history of a mythological figure, your ingrained cultural sensibilities are always going to impact your perception. I stand by that.
And btw, yes I noticed the actual picture SMIntern, thanks. I didn’t just start writing based on the third of the post above the fold.
Maitri, do you think attending Uni gave me a skewed idea about desis? As in, thinking “they” were like everyone else to the point of not realizing “they” were a “they” to begin with? Was there racial/cultural discrimination at Uni I was unaware of?
If there was one thing missing at Uni, it was racial/cultural discrimination, at least while I was there, so you’re ok on that one. That said, back in the 80s and early 90s, Asian-Americans were definitely more of a “they” than Indian-Americans. It never held I-As back, diluted their culture or anything similarly untoward, though.
You just are the sum of your experiences and passions, Nina, and if you choose cartoons as your tool and Hinduism as one of your vehicles, then so be it. I’ve heard your name pop up in the oddest circles because of your Sitayana – you put Sita in the vernacular of my generation, how about that?
I guess my point is that which I make with Ganeshas on beer bottles and Parvatis on thong underwear: If the maker understands the religious value of that same iconography and would then turn around and do the same thing to a picture of Christ or the Pope, more power to them. Does a white boy gangsta-leanin’ in a tricked out car while blasting Ludacris or 50 somehow dilute or disrespect the black culture of origin? It’s almost the same question.
Waiter? Sense of humor for table 66? Thanks.
Maitri, a black boy gangsta-leanin’ in a tricked out car while blasting Ludacris disrespects black culture.
The association between my desire and Kali wasn’t conscious or reasoned, it just was. But I’ll attempt a reason: Kali is violent, passionate, unrestrained, beyond control, and out for male blood. Also, she is a goddess, and must be revered. I was hating on my own desire (and therefore myself) before I drew that picture, wishing it would go away and leave me alone. After I drew the picture, I respected it. Instead of trying to get rid of it, I asked it for protection. Sorry that sounds crazy; it worked. I also took out one of my Kali postcards and kept it on my desk for a few months. My Desire isn’t Kali, but it reminded me of her, and I wanted to pay my respects and stay in touch.
Also, I like the part about how Shiva eventually throws himself beneath Kali’s feet, which shakes her out of her rampage and moves her to return to a more benign form. True love ends the cycle. I hope it does for me, too.
I really don’t know of any other icon, Western or Indian, like Kali.
Maybe cuz my house was relatively orthodox, but I can’t think of any popular Muslim icon, but then again, maybe that was the whole reason to make it haram in the first place
More accurately, your house was relatively Sunni orthodox. Shias have a lot of images of Ali and Hassan/Hussain.
a kinder, gentler Kobayashi: Thanks for making my nose a hot chocolate fountain. Hahahahaaa!
Back to the point, that is an aspect of black urban culture (very prevalent, say, here in New Orleans) and white kids emulate it, too. Insert your own favorite black rapper in place of Ludacris.
Sorry this is off-topic. Does anyone know about a group blog like this staffed with young professionals/intellectuals serving any of these other brown communities? Latino, Arab, Pacific Islander, Ethiopian, Native American, or other indigenous communities? I’m interested in other intelligently written, frequently updated group blogs by brown folks that get beyond the “white/black” narrative. Thanks.
Nina, I want to thank you for being receptive enough to have this dialogue with everyone. You’re baring yourself in a conversation where you are extra vulnerable and I dig that you’re answering questions and participating. 🙂
Back to it!
I think there is something to be said about the fact that the average American might not see the ‘art’ element of this depiction but take the crazed Hindu goddess chopping off male genitalia and head at face value. Lampooning foreign gods in a culture which already lampoons these particular foreign gods is a little nasty and insensitive to say the least.
Maitri, thanks.
Whenever the proselytizers approach me (they think I am a good candidate for Christianity), I tell them, with due respect, they are wasting their time. I already believe in Christ, and I don’t believe his followers. 🙂
Exactly. It’s a power that many may not even know they have. I’m not familiar with the person who’s works of art are in question on this thread – so I’ll keep my statement general. But if a person chooses to create and spread exaggerated depictions of Hinduism and they are indeed as educated about the religion, as they and others are claiming – then I hold them responsible for providing counterbalancing viewpoints/artworks/messages as well, to ensure their exaggerated artworks are clearly recognized as such.
I think the greatest lesson here is that when you protest something too much you end up unnecessarily giving it MORE publicity and MORE attention, and a bigger stage and audience than it had in the first place. Case in point…if Nagasai and myself had kept our mouths shut, maybe we all wouldn’t be having this discussion in the first place, and we could have all remained ignorant of this image. Not that the image grossly offends me. I don’t believe in any goddess. But I value much about my cultural heritage, and that’s where this image rubs the wrong way. Maybe the best approach if you don’t like something is ignore it and don’t give it too much importance.
Come on, Pondatti! Sure, I got the joke but it’s clearly kidding on the square at best.
Like I said, it doesn’t matter to me. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with being uncomfortable displaying bare breasts on the front page of your website. But y’know, there’s a reason for that decision and it’s one example of an attitude that clearly changes one’s interpretation of any work.
Maybe I’m not communicating this well. Another example is the concept of “maya”. Most of us know what it means, but it’s pretty hard to actually translate into English accurately. Saying something along the lines of “intense physical pleasure” kind of gets at it, but it will evoke different attitudes (with moral judgement attached) depending on one’s upbringing. But saying something “cleaner”, like “transcendent joy” misses something too. If you’re coming at the concept from outside the faith, you’re less likely to get subtleties like that (of course it’s not impossible).
If the fact that I referred to Anna’s original post is what’s throwing you off, ignore it. I’d redact it if I could — I don’t want squabbling over one sentence to overshadow anything else.
Would you have preferred that? Do you think this is a discussion we shouldn’t have? 🙂
Are you not overreacting Anna? I paticipated in that discussion, and it looked to me that most where supportive.
Dang those blockquote tags!!
True. A personal website meant for friends and acquaintances is not likely to make a dent in anyone’s consciousness. Krishna with a cat on its head, being distributed to every major record store in the country, well, that just might. One should pick and choose their battles.
Overreacting by…? Creating a new post for an interesting facet of a different discussion? Obviously it was a wanted discussion, look how fast the comments have flown in just a few hours.
nina, thanks for the explanation. my only quibble is that, from my point of view, i don’t think kali is “out for male blood.”
)
No, I’m glad we’re having it (can’t believe we’ve made it to over 80 comments without the thread being closed). But I personally sure wouldn’t want to (advertently or inadvertently) widen the audience for Nina’s art, or gain it extra exposure via any comment or action of mine. I wouldn’t want to encroach on her freedom either of course. And you are right about the following:
Nina, it’s not hard for me to believe that this is an act of reverence on your part. Cartooning != caricature != parody.
I wasn’t lampooning Kali. I know it’s hard to believe, but this is a form of sincere reverence for me.
ANNA speaks highly of you and I trust her enough to know that you mean well. So I guess what you are saying is subjectively true but objectively sure does look like a lampoon.
The subset of the culture in which I live does not “lampoon these particular foreign gods.” If some people in the West hate on Hindus and their gods, that doesn’t mean the entire culture does.
Well, I dont know where you live and that very well might be true in your sub-culture. I disagree about ‘some’ people in the West mocking Hindu gods. I would say that the popular culture in the US does in fact mock Hindu gods IMO.
The intended audience was folks I know or who are interested in my work and life as chronicled on my blog. If I shoved it in the face of devout Hindus, somehow posted it on a devout Hindu web site, or printed up posters and distributed them at Hindu temples, that would be nasty and insensitive. But I didn’t. And I wouldn’t.
Ok, I did not know that it was for a selective audience. I was under the impression that it was for mass public consumption. I dont have a problem with you shoving it in the faces of devout Hindus in India. Its about depictions in a country where the Hindu religious iconography is usually a subject of ridicule. Kinda like piling on, if you will.
Anyway, I bear no ill-will towards you.
Peace.
Heh. That’s a dangerous thing to say to a cartoonist.
However, if that’s right, then are the Amar Chitra Katha comic book versions of the Ramayana and the Mahabharata inherently disrespectful? What’s the difference between a comic book and a sequence of miniatures?
No, it was on Nina’s blog. It’s actually from a while ago at that. People need to hunt around to find it.
Amar Chitra Katha’s intent is clearly to educate. From the A.C.K. website, regarding the comic’s founder:
“One day as he was watching a quiz programme on television; he saw that the participating children from English-medium schools were well versed with the lore of Tarzan and the exploits of Greek gods but could not answer simple questions about the Ramayana. That is when he decided to use the popular medium of comics to acquaint Indian children with their rich cultural heritage. “
However well intentioned and reverential the picture in question here was, it’s QUITE a stretch to state it’s intent is to “acquaint Indian children with their rich cultural heritage.” The comparison itself is ludicrous.
Ennis, Amar Chitra Katha was exactly what I had in mind with that comment. IMO, cartoons are just more accessible, but are not necessarily intended as parody or humor.
SK this was not an attack on you. And secondly, There in lies the irony. Educated? then why still cling on to the caste.
i think there’s a big difference between the amar chitra katha style of drawing and the one above (irrespective of nina’s intentions for drawing it.) the two styles evoke different reactions, especially if one doesn’t know nina’s explanation for her drawing.
Maybe I should also clarify how I can be an atheist/agnostic yet revere god/s, although it’s hard to clarify something so inherently murky. Indra Sharma says, “painting is my prayer,” and so it (drawing/animating) is for me. Although I don’t believe in god/gods as real, hard-fleshed, absolute, man-in-the-sky, these-stories-are-all-true-they-really-happened, capital-R Reality, I do find that prayer/reverence/meditation can focus my mind and lighten my heart. It’s good for me. The religious rapture described by many True Believers seems very similar to the rapture I’m subject to when in the thick of making art. It sounds pompous and stupid, but when the work’s going right it really does feel like channeling. It bypasses reason and ego. Where do the ideas come from? How do I know how to do this? I don’t know, but I’ve learned to stop questioning the Muse and just serve it. I don’t identify with any particular religion, but for the past several years I’ve been working with and studying Hindu iconography, so that’s what’s been foremost on my mind. In addition to being beautiful, these icons are amazingly useful for coping with the world. I’m in awe, really.
I’m so aware of being an outsider as I type these words. I want to defend myself already. Instead, I’ll just consider myself lucky I get these experiences at all, and that there’s so much beauty in the world, and how cool it is that we get exposed to more art/culture from more parts of the world than ever before in history.
!=, Ennis! NOT Equal!
Yeah, that’s the problem with spending 10 seconds on reading a comment and replying while at work. Mea Culpa.
Educated? then why still cling on to the caste
Educated? They why still cling to religion and tradition at all? And cling may be a strong word.
Nina, geology is my prayer, I feel you. You have looked away from what you know and explore the unknown. Onwards!