It’s only because Abhi doesn’t pay us I don’t have the time that I haven’t taken myself down to Manhattan Supreme Court to check out on your behalf, gentle reader, the ongoing circus that is generating press clips of this nature:
A city cop who testified he was seduced at age 13 by his East Side Montessori school principal suffered a figurative beating by the same headmistress in court yesterday. …
“Did that involve any noise?” Shargel asked. “Noises that are often attendant to the act of making love?” The cop answered, “The TV would be on loud.”
Backstory and Desi Angle (TM): Well, you see, the Montessori school principal in question is desi. Name of Lina Sinha, age 40. The alleged events took place about ten years ago. It seems something went down between the two, but just what, and how illegal, and whether it can be proved, is up in the air. He says she raped him when he was underage. She says they had an affair after he turned 17, which ended badly; that she had accused him of beating her and he, fearing this would lose him his job with the NYPD, turned around and accused her of rape.
Additional elements of note: Steven Soderbergh was almost a juror in the case. Too bad he didn’t make the final cut – there’s sex here for sure, and lies somewhere, and all we need is the videotape. Second element of note: Sinha’s attorney is Gerald Shargel, who is best known for defending mobsters. Damn! Maybe I will make it down to the court after all. The whole scene sounds classic.
Get your fix with these stories from the first day of the trial last week (Daily News flava; New York Post flava with photo of Sinha — go on, you know you want to; New York Times flava), and these updates. Looks like Shargel’s scoring some points, which is why he gets paid the big bucks. We’ll try and keep an eye on this tawdriness for you as the trial continues.
deshika writes: >>So if a 5 year old’s parents say it’s okay for his teacher to molest him, you’re alright with that?
I have no business in this case – and neither should the Government or anyone else. The parents gave birth to and provide for the child. They can do whatever it is they please.
Point being – you can never protect children whose own parents loathe them (which is less than 0.0000001% of the case). Laws have to be made to be applicable to most of the people – not a miniscule minority.
Siddhartha #49:
“Exploited” is a loaded word. Male teenagers cannot be exploited – if they don’t want to have it with a woman, their bodies don’t let them . Whereas females can be exploited against their wish. So we need to look at them differently.
M. Nam
Exploitation is psychological though not just a physical thing. A child agrees because he/she is coerced into believing it’s right.
Are you really of the “lie back and enjoy it” school of victim’s rights deniers? Or is this all just useless internet provocation?
A preposterous, dangerous and ignorant statement. I really don’t want to have draw you a picture here, but there are many avenues and variations of physical and psychological abuse that your absurd theory fails to take into account.
So, if you’re a male teenager and your teacher propositions you with the threat that if you don’t follow through with her wishes you will be penalized, that’s not exploitation? Also, have you never been physically attracted to someone you KNOW you shouldn’t sleep with? Especially as a teenager? In that situation, your body would certainly be “letting” you, but you might not be psychologically willing.
I don’t think the situation is as black and white as siddhartha makes it out to be (how many of our grandparents’ marriages would count as “rape” if the only necessary elements are an age difference and an unequal power relationship?), but it’s not like it’s a completely false concern.
When did I say that? My comment was specifically about situations involving teenage students and their teachers.
JOAT writes: >>Exploitation is psychological though not just a physical thing. A child agrees because he/she is coerced into believing it’s right.
Which brings me to my original point: Consent has to be the perogative of those who can provide for themselves, because those who can pay the rent, buy groceries, heat their house etc etc will have the psychological makeup that cannot be exploited or coerced.
All I’m saying is: Don’t make it age driven – make it event driven. Some people have precocious psychological development: Akbar/Alexander were commanding armies at 13. Adi Shankara was debating Buddhists at 11. Would you deny them consent due to their age?
I’ve seen complete idiots who are in their 30’s – I wouldn’t give them the right to consent.
Preston/Siddhartha,
In majority of the cases – it is exploitation because the victim is neither mature or capable of judging. However, there are many cases where teenagers have become millionaires (who was the day-trader guy in the late 90’s?). I would not deny them the right to consent because it is dangerous or preposterous.
That act is an Energy transaction: If you have put in Energy, you have the right to take it. If you haven’t, then you need to get the permission of the person(s) who contribute to the Energy.
M. Nam
Oh yeah? Show me some statistics. Oh wait…even better…I’ll show you some. The fatality rate from child abuse and/or neglect is 2 per 100,000, or .002 %. Just under 80% of these are caused by a parent. Here’s my source Those are just fatalities, not total numbers of abused children. And actually, you can protect them, by taking them away from their abusive parents.
You’re entitled to your opinion, warped though it is, but don’t make up BS statistics. Or maybe you have to when you have a groundless argument…
The fact that it’s a teenager is irrelevant. Is the person in question self-sufficient? Is it a person who has inherited a Billion dollars and is managing all the wealth by himself? Or is it a regular person who lives with his parents and has to beg them to not ground him?
Specifics. Not age limits.
M. Nam
Could you, um, just… link to one then? A Google Image search revealed nothing.
common sense dictates:
eventhough girls develop faster, the age of consent is lower for guys. makes a LOT of sense. So lets reverse this up a bit and say that its ok for R kelly to bang a 15 year old girl? absolutely disguesting double standard! unless ofcourse its meant to be a bad joke
This whole discussion (minus MoorNam’s ridiculous theories about “economic self-sufficiency”) are conflating what is ILLEGAL (statutory rape/sex with a minor) with what is just plain UNETHICAL (sexual harrassment/unequal power equation). If Sinha’s story about having a consensual relationship with a 17 year old is true, that may or may not be grounds for her losing her job (was she still his teacher at the time?), but doesn’t make it a crime (seeing as age of consent in NY is 16, right?).
There are a multitude of problems here, not least of which are the multitude of ages of consent in different jurisdictions. What makes the same act (sex between an adult and a 14 year old, for example), illegal in California (age of consent: 18) and New York State (16), but legal in Spain and the Netherlands (14)? And sex with a 16 year old?: perfectly legal in New York, but not in California.
Despite Siddhartha’s original concern about teacher/student, I think Neal makes a good point: “how many of our grandparents’ marriages would count as ‘rape’ if the only necessary elements are an age difference and an unequal power relationship?” There’s something to be said here about “cultural relativism” or maybe “criminal relativism”, even within the same country!
At first glance ,this kind of relationship may seem like “fun”(lots of it!!) for a young guy but as someone said there are so many possible variations of this situation that things can get really really bad, what if the guy wants to end it and teacher get vindictive? She got too much power over him. Also the guy can be manipulated into doing a lot of things (just thinking about the movie “To die For” here, maybe a strech. I dont know!).
Having said that, I am so depressed now that my best 15th birthday present was just a lousy cricket bat 🙁
According to the Post, “Prosecutors say that in 1996, when Sinha was 29 and the now-cop was only 13, she began giving him oral sex in the classrooms, field-trip van and adjacent rooms of the Montessori School on East 55th Street.” That’s simply not creditable; no South Asian woman gives oral sex. I’ll testify to that. (j/k)
The end-result of going against my “ridiculous” theory is…
The fatality rate from child abuse and/or neglect is 2 per 100,000, or .002 %. Just under 80% of these are caused by a parent
Oh – we all know how step-chidlren and foster children are included in this statistic. There are many Woody Allens in this world.
Any statitics on sexual abuse of minors where both birth parents are involved?
M. Nam
Consent has to be the perogative of those who can provide for themselves
MoorNam: Please explain to my addled brain how your assertion does not essentially state the the majority of brides throughout human history could then be said to have NOT been engaging in “consensual” sex?
And what would you make of a modern-day student (male or female) whose sole financial support is from his/her parents through his/her undergraduate and graduate schooling (say, through age 26 or so)? Said person is incapable of “consenting” to sex?
And can a kid of the age of, say, 12, working in third-world sweatshops similarly be considered “consenting” in a sexual encounter with a 25 year old?
Upon what are you basing this theory of sexual readiness/maturity?
I don’t know – ask his/her parents. They’re feeding him/her, not me.
M. Nam
Thanks for that illuminating answer.
(doh! why, oh why, do we insist on feeding them even when we know better?????!!!!)
in theory i agree with you siddhartha. the problem is theory is not reality. in the high profile sex “abuse” cases involving female teachers with male teenagers, it was the males who were clearly the aggressors (Letourneau, Debra Lafave, for example) or at a minimum, willing participants. if the teacher actually forced or exploited the male teen (like say, “have sex with be or fail the class”) i’d agree with you, but such scenarios are rare at best, liberal fantasies at worst.
i think you make too much of power disparities. anecdotally, boys who have sex with women have fared well and enjoyed this scenario…though i’m open to razib like stats that show otherwise if you have them. i’m concerned that we are turning these boys into tawana brawley cases, looking at themselves as victims when any boy who can seduce beautiful and powerful women should be put on a track to be CEO of Goldman, Sachs. modern day victim psychology is emasculating our future leaders.
i’m trying to protect girls (and boys) from predatory men.
yeah, it’s a double standard and violates liberal theories of fair play, not to mention the 14th ammendment, but liberalism is not always in tune with nature.
69:
“sexual ‘abuse’ ” in dubitative quote marks – check
“liberal fantasies” – check
Tawana Brawley reference – check
celebration of “seducing beautiful and powerful women” – check
celebration of becoming CEO of Goldman Sachs – check
“victim psychology” reference – check
and last but not least:
Manju, that was a tour de force. And if you meant it sincerely, I respect you for saying your opinion, but there is too much that separates us for me to be able to reply without writing a treatise for which I have no time. Sorry.
Did any of the men on this site ever get it on with their lady teachers. I did and I was 15. Lasted for 3 months. My first experience. I am 35 now. Totally loved it. I daresay that every teenage lad who wants to should be able to get some from his lady teacher. Siddhartha – I disagree. Manju – I agree.
I don’t think anyone should be making assumptions about whether a sexual relationship was coerced or voluntary based on the teenager’s economic resources, whether said teenager was male or female, or other external assumptions like “a boy would always enjoy it” or “a desi would never do this” – how about asking the teenager in question? There are consensual and coercive relationships even within unequal power equations, and the point is to figure out which it was instead of painting all such relationships with a broad brush.
I know my fair share of students who have had consensual relationships with their professors or TAs. It’s unethical when the teacher is directly responsible for their grade, but once the class is done, I have nothing to say about the ethics of a consensual relationship. Nor do I believe in infantilizing a 17 year old to the point where I’d assume it must have been coercion, because I have friends who have been there and it was quite consensual.
No Prob, S; I understand. But please note I avoided the anti-communist angle…you’ve turned me into a moderate.
Can someone cite some research or post some numbers on how boys who have sex with their female teachers as compared to girls who have sex with their male teachers fare in life?
Debra Lafave is the woman who’s name I couldn’t remember in comment #43 above. She’s very attractive. There is no way I feel sorry for that 14 year old boy…in fact you might even say he was lucky to be in the right place at the right time. SHE is of course clearly very disturbed and I do fault her heavily for what she did. I do acknowledge the double standard in that the thought of a 14 year old girl carrying on with an older man is disgusting…and I do acknowledge a certain hypocrisy too, because all said and done I’m happy that at 14 I was still fairly innocent and not initiated into intimacy yet, and also as I said before, if it was MY son who had that affair I’d want to kill the teacher.
I was hoping someone else would say it, but since has yet and this thread will die out soon…
Am I the only one who is disgusted by the very notion of a student having sex with his/her teacher – regardless of age, economic status or any other considerations? Am I the only one who considers this as incest? Since millennia, our culture has taught us that a teacher is nothing but a surrogate mother/father. After MatrudevoBhava, PitrDevoBhava, we have AcharyaDevoBhava – ie, the teacher follows immediately after Mother and Father (before even your siblings, uncles, aunts etc). Even in my last trip to India I met a few of my teachers (those who are still alive) and touched their feet for blessings.
I’m disappointed that in a 2nd generation desi blog, not a single American-born among you have grasped this cultural nuance. Being desi should not just mean loving samosas, enjoying “diaspora” movies like Namesake, doing dandia/bhangra, wearing saree etc. These are superflous ways of celebrating and retaining your cultural identity. If you lose the essential components underlying our heritage, in a couple of generations there will be nothing desi about you (how many of you can say that your children will know how to make samosas?).
I think too many desi kids have been sold on compartmentalised living/identity that’s so common to the American ethos – that is, a teacher is a teacher only on campus. Off campus, anything goes. He/She’s paid – what more is needed? Newt Gingrich married his high-school teacher, and nobody bats an eyelid. Hey – they’re consenting adults. It’s a free country. What people don’t realise is that once you cross certain boundaries, all other boundaries will eventually be crossed. Just today, Newt confessed to an affair.
Parents of desi kids will do them a favor to cut down on Bharatnatyam or tabla classes, and instead sit down with them and teach them underlying philosophical values that have made Indians who they are. That is, if they know those values in the first place!
It’s wrong when a high-school teacher sleeps with a teenage student. It’s wrong when a PhD advisor sleeps with a 25+ old student – even after the Phd is completed. Age has nothing to do with it.
M. Nam
That only applies if all parties are on the same page. It has to be two-sided i.e. the teacher sees his role as you described and the student sees his role as you described. It doesn’t really work if the teachers themselves don’t see it that way. Another analogy is the respect shown in general in Indian culture to those who are older. This value was inculcated into me from day one. I find myself in general being quite polite and respectful to those who are significantly older than me…desis and non-desis alike…but it has dawned on me that many non-desis don’t ‘get it’…and I would be foolish in some circumstances to pay someone more respect than they expect or deserve, especially a non-desi who simply sees me as a person (and not as a YOUNGER person per se). In those situations where it would be inimical to me, I try to temper or downplay unnecessary respectfulness. But in general I agree that American norms regarding how people interact with their elders do leave me cold. Some desis take it too far though, touching their elders’ feet every 5 minutes, and not free to joke around or be comfortable around their older family.
Ahhhhhhhh! Resisting the impulse to feed feels SO good.
My point is, you’re actually handicapping yourself for no good reason if you bring these outmoded Indian attitudes into an American setting, where no one will notice or appreciate what you’re doing anyway. The attitudes you describ simply can not cross cultures like that.
Amitabh writes:>>That only applies if all parties are on the same page…take it too far though, touching their elders’ feet every 5 minutes, and not free to joke around or be comfortable around their older family
I hear you. This is where one needs to maintain a delicate balance. Actions like touching elder’s feet are out-of-place, but the central idea of showing respect can be carried out the American way. You can get him/her coffee, or tell him/her to cancel the cab and drop them off at the airport yourself, etc etc.
You could mentally elevate the teacher to a high-respect level – whether that is reciprocated or not is immaterial. You can choose to not see them in a sexual manner – then if they choose to do so, it will be easier for you to reject the advances.
I disagree that these are “outmoded” attitudes. These are lessons that have withstood the test of time, and fifty years of promiscousity is just a bump on the long road.
Indeed, my point was if desis (esp. 2nd gen desis) think of these as outmoded, then they would have ceded the playing-field of discourse to the dominant culture. They will start seeing the world through the eyes of the dominant culture, and will be unable to use their own cultural strengths in situations where the dominant culture fails. They will become Confused. This is apparently shown well in Namesake where Gogol is confused and rebels initially, but later matures and discovers his true self. It’s all fine in a movie, but in real life, it’s usually too late.
Moreover, as immigrants we have a duty to bring the best of India to America. This does not mean only dosas and chicken-tikka, but cultural and philosophical values that will strengthen America in the long run. If we blindly accept everything American, then we would be doing injustice to the idea of America itself.
M. Nam
Of all the bizarre threads to appear on SM, this might be the looniest conversation ever.
Manju’s “common sense dictates,” an R. Kelly reference (for a great rebuttal, watch “The Trial of R. Kelly” episode of “The Boondocks”), the obvious gender-reversal “disgust” (I’ll bet even-money half the guys who profess disgust at “14-year-old-girls having sex, ew ew ew!” have some kind of pr0n on their hard drive that involves girls at least dressed up like they’re underage), an actual explanation of how males can be taken advantage of, various people grossed out by the idea of sex with teachers / 30-somethings / teenagers / desi kids, a few too many “hubba-hubba! wink-wink-nudge-nudge-say-no-more” kind of comments by guys who WISH they could have slept with their teachers…yuck. Too much neurosis here.
Browns! Y’all are not getting better.
Tell you what. Go to this. With a kid. And think about something other than what does or does not get you off for a while, huh?
Back to lurking for me.
Y’all,
There is no 2 ways about it and I cannot believe those of you that would even dream of justifying sex with a 13 or 14 year old.
As the mom of a teenage boy , let me tell you that if any adult had behaved with my child as Ms.Lina behaved with her student, I would have got her booked for rape. There is no legal, ethical or moral justification for a double standard here. Whether it is a female teacher with male underage students or a male teacher with female underage students the crime is just that – an immoral, reprehensible, perverted Crime. There is no ‘desi – videsi’ mentality about this so please spare us the specious arguments about “outmoded “Indian attitudes. Why call child molestation by any other name?
The only debatable issues about underage sex are the “Romeo and Juliet ” cases where both parties are underage and that is a completely different scenario.
Reading some of the garbage posted here,I have to sadly draw the conclusion that most of you are immature, identity – confused (and generally confused) and are definitely either not parents and not mature enough to be parents.
Bah – no more posting on SM for me .I gotta go wash the bad taste out of my mouth!
Runa, get a grip. Also, what is your definition of “underage”? Because, as has been pointed out here, it depends on the state or country you live in. In other words, there is no “universal” dividing line. That is also part of the issue.
Yeah, I agree that 12 or 13 is definitely or should definitely be out of the question… but what about 16? 17? These are grey areas — and they are grey areas legally, even if they are not grey in your mind.
I meant what I said : even if underage varies from country to country or state to state – if one party is adult and the other is underage what is the debate about? Its child molestation – nothing else.
My point -which I thought was clear – is that when both parties are underage ( hence the “Romeo and Juliet” reference ) the nature of the “crime” – if any is debatable
I’ll get a grip when everyone here gets a grip on reality !
MoorNam an Runa are right. This behaviour is wrong, immoral, taboo, and incestuous (which are much more meanigful terms than “explotative”). In fact, that’s what makes the sex so hot.
Now, how do I square the above with my own views? Sex is about contradictions. We can acknowledege that Hobbes is correct in viewing human nature as inhernetly selfish and uncivilised, while celebrating the dionysian darkness of human sexuality.
What I represent is the point of view of the 13 yr old boy. He should seduce the beautiful teacher and then be man enought to keep quite about it so no one finds out. And if he crys rape, his father should tell him to man-up. If the act is illegal, all the better, all th hotter. This is what future Goldman Sachs CEOs are made off.
My position is that the legal age of consent for males should be lowered to 13. 16 is fine for girls. Female teachers who have consentual sex with 13 year old students are doing something wrong, but I don’t believe it should be illegal. They should be fired and not allowed to teach anymore. It is wrong and very unprofessional(which makes it exciting too haha). Former teachers getting together with former students(which is the case with Lina Sinha – she wasn’t his teacher or principal after the 8th grade) aren’t doing anything wrong at all in my opinion, as in Newt Gingrich’s case(unless it started when he was a teenager).
Unless someone can show me scientific evidence of 13 year old male students getting traumatized by having consentual intercourse with older, especially beautiful female teachers, I’ll stand by 13 as the legal age of consent. I’ve been there; I wasn’t a “victim” at all, and I’m probably one of the shyest guys in the universe! And I have very very weird origins, since both of my grandmothers were significantly older than their husbands. So maybe I’m just biased.
Would someone please close these inane comments? They’re driving me nuts. Hello? SM Intern?
Very confusing.
Perhaps there should be no legal “age of consent” at all and cases should just be viewed individually.
My granny was 14 when she married my grandpa, then in his twenties. Nowadays that would be considered statutory rape.
It’s hard to label relationships like this.
While I feel sorry for all parties involved in this unusual case, is there any intention of revenge from the former student? Sometimes if a teacher flunks/disciplines a kid (or gives a bad/ non-ideal grade), it can drive a student crazy and perhaps become irrational.
That would make sense but it’s not neccessarily the case, as sexual expression depends upon alot of factors that go beyond just the physical.
I’ve seen many young teenage men who could easily pass for mid-twenties due to their physique, and some even due to their behaviour, character, and mental maturity.
A young, well-built and well-mannered teenage man can be very attractive to females older than himself.
Although for the sake of the smooth running of society, I can understand why “age of consent” laws are in place, I don’t neccessarily think they are or should be moral be-alls and end-alls.
There are some teenagers out there who are mature enough mentally and emotionally to enter into conscious and aware relationships with older partners that are not exploitative.
Generally I don’t think teenagers of either gender are considered ideal partners for people in their 20’s and 30’s, but there are exceptions to every rule.
As far as a sexual match, although teenage men around 17-18 are considered at their “peak” and women in their 30’s are also considered the same, I doubt a young teenage man has enough experience, art, skill or tricks of the trade “under his belt”, so to speak, to actually please a woman in her 30’s.
Being a great lover takes alot of time, patience and practice. It’s rare for men even in their 30’s and 40’s – what to speak of a 17 year old, although I am sure there are exceptions.
What’s an AILF?
Times have sure changed. Where were these gals when I was a teen? 🙂