I have a number of brown friends who are staunch, one might even say devout, atheists but you’d never know it because they are very private about their beliefs. I find this a bit perplexing because they are quite outspoken on most other personal and political matters, but when it comes to matters of religion and God, these desi atheists (==> daytheists) are still in the closet because of the social costs involved in exposing themselves.
 |
|
Stamp celebrating the founder of India’s Atheist Center |
Very Favorable: 7%
Mostly Favorable: 27%
Mostly Unfavorable: 19%
Very Unfavorable: 33% [Link]
<
p>
That’s even more negative than American opinions about Muslims, both amongst born-again Christians and amongst non-Chiristians! In fact, more Americans would be willing to vote for a gay candidate than an atheist:
Atheists “are seen as a threat to the American way of life by a large portion of the American public,” … In a recent NEWSWEEK Poll, Americans said they believed in God by a margin of 92 to 6 … and only 37 percent said they’d be willing to vote for an atheist for president. (That’s down from 49 percent in a 1999 Gallup poll–which also found that more Americans would vote for a homosexual than an atheist.)… [Link]
Surprisingly, tolerance for atheism might be higher on the desi side. While I don’t have comparable poll numbers, atheism has a long history within India as a philosophical movement, going back to 600 BC:
Carvaka, an atheistic school of Indian philosophy, traces its origins to 600 BCE. It was a hedonistic school of thought, advocating that there is no afterlife. Carvaka philosophy appears to have died out some time after 1400 CE. [Link][Amartya Sen says:] “Sanskrit had a larger atheistic literature than exists in any other classical language. Even within the Hindu tradition, there are many people who were atheist.” [Link]
In fact, some prominent Hindutva figures are actually atheists:
Well-known personality, Veer Savarkar, who was president of Hindu Mahasabha, was an atheist. He is credited for developing a Hindu nationalist political ideology he termed as Hindutva (Hinduness).
Bal Thackeray, the founder and president of the Shiv Sena, has publicly proclaimed himself an atheist after the death of his wife.[Link]
There’s a long tradition of atheism on the Indian left as well:
The Atheist Center was founded in 1940 by G. Ramachandra Rao, a university professor who adopted the name Gora for himself and tried to win Gandhi over to atheism… the keynote of Gora’s prose is a majestic confidence that the death of god leads directly to moral and political solutions: “The problem before atheists is to find out a method by which economic equality is achieved while preserving the freedom of the individual. That is, taking democracy and socialism together.” [Link]
Atheist Centre, right from its inception, gave highest priority to fighting the evil practices of untouchability and caste distinctions. In the teeth of severe opposition, Atheist Centre took up the programmes of inter-dining and intercaste marriages to fight the heinous custom of untouchability. Gora made it a point to stay only in an untouchable locality when he was invited to address a meeting at any village. An inter-dining programme was also organised in the village on the occasion. It was a deliberate attempt to usher in social change in a traditional society. [Link]
And even politicians are sometimes willing to take a stand as proud secularists:
… no less than thirteen Cabinet ministers [out of a total of twenty-nine] chose to make their pledges using the secular phrase “solemnly affirm”. as opposed to the usual for of “in the name of god”. [Link]
<
p>Given all of this, I have some questions: Is it actually easier to be an atheist in India than in the US? Why do ABD atheists fear social sanction if they let their freak flags fly? Is this one of these ABD things, where religion is seen to stand in for culture, and therefore SouthAsian American identities are actually more constraining than SouthAsian ones? If you’re a theist, do you think of atheists as different? If you’re an atheist, do you feel constrained? I’d be happy to receive some cross-cultural education on these matters.
<
p>
 |
|
Gallup poll on the characteristics of Presidential candidates |
Help! Help! I’m being repressed!
The link on this study has expired, but it does show the level of distrust towards Atheists:
“Surprisingly, tolerance for atheism might be higher on the desi side.”
i don’t think it’s that surprising at all. and the american attitude to atheists is not surprising either. wonder if the cold war aggravated their anatagonism towards atheists. given that mitt romney, a mormon, is seen as not quite pukka when it comes to presidential material ( i think he was heckled the other day for not being a “true follower” of jesus), it’s not suprising that a person of no religion would be treated even worse.
Why? why are people distrustful towards atheists?
Calling Mitt Romney a moron is just uncalled for.
Actually, I think another study from a few years ago showed that the US is in fact one of the most religious countries in the world. Moreso than India, in fact. For the life of me, I cannot remember which magazine did this, but it was a major point of discussion in my household. My household, incidentally, is comprised of two devout Hindus (my father and brother), one closet atheist (my mother), and one outspoken ABD atheist, myself.
I don’t think it’s easy to be an atheist anywhere. It doesn’t matter how religious a country is, frequently the socially polite thing to do is avoid discussing religion, politics, and gender roles and stick to the weather. Given that India’s weather switches predictably between monsoon and dry heat, it’s probably more entertaining to discuss upcoming religious festivals. Most people I know are self-declared “spirituals” who are put off by the average atheist’s complete lack of a higher force because that is a matter between the individual and his or her psyche and comfort level with their position in existence.
I actually don’t fear social sanction because of atheism. Ironically, I fear social sanction from Americans, ABDs, and Indians because I haven’t experimented with drugs, alcohol, or hook up culture while proudly declaring my god(s)lessness. For some reason, not conforming to that behavioral social norm is more terrifying than not worshipping anything intangible. Now that’s a freak flag. I would also attribute this to my position on the Eastern Seaboard, but we’re not all as open minded as the stereotype implies.
Religion doesn’t stand in for culture, in my experience. Muslims, Hindus, Christians, Zoroastrian…what have you…desis all seem to join together in one big SASA cult at my university. I think crappy bhangra is the new stand in for culture. And some Bollywood. Pretending to have Apu’s accent and clubbing to some DJ STATIC remix has kept the South Asians very close./embittered diatribe. But this post isn’t about that.
While I don’t share a god with any of these desis…or a past time, actually…I believe I still have an appropriate understanding of a desi culture because I understand the religion’s influences on the sociobiological development and traits of the people, the historical antecedents, temples, churches, mosques, cults, and literature that have created a traditionally monotheistic, polytheistic pantheon that encourages and quietly accepts monism and even atheism.
As long as one’s system of belief doesn’t constrain or define their lifestyle, I don’t believe there is any reason to feel constrained. Atheists don’t eat babies. I’m sure they would have mentioned something in the newsletter.
Holland. Sweden. I don’t think it’s hard in Germany either.
Well-known personality, Veer Savarkar, who was president of Hindu Mahasabha, was an atheist. He is credited for developing a Hindu nationalist political ideology he termed as Hindutva (Hinduness).
Gowalkar too, who ranks just after Savarkar in the movement. Many of the Zionists were atheist/agnostic Jews.
Religion doesn’t stand in for culture, in my experience. Muslims, Hindus, Christians, Zoroastrian…what have you…desis all seem to join together in one big SASA cult at my university. I think crappy bhangra is the new stand in for culture.
Until its time to get married, then it all seems to matter, viz., atheist Hindu does not equal atheist Muslim.
Agreed, but from my short stay in those nations, their tolerance of atheism did not arise from an understanding of it. Those countries seem iconically and generationally Christian, not taking any of the scripture to heart, and as religion does not define their lifestyles, they do not feel threatened by an individual expressing a lack of it. But good point.
Marriage is out of my discussion entirely. I was referring to daily treatment on a platonic basis. But thank you for further clarification.
Ironically, I fear social sanction from Americans, ABDs, and Indians because I haven’t experimented with drugs, alcohol, or hook up culture while proudly declaring my god(s)lessness. For some reason, not conforming to that behavioral social norm is more terrifying than not worshipping anything intangible. Now that’s a freak flag.
Religion doesn’t stand in for culture, in my experience. Muslims, Hindus, Christians, Zoroastrian…what have you…desis all seem to join together in one big SASA cult at my university. I think crappy bhangra is the new stand in for culture.
Wow, could not have said it better myself! BTW, I’m agnostic and raised on West coast. I always feel like the “outsider” no matter where I go, including desi circles, because I have “conservative” personal values.
Um, yes it does.
See here. And here. Then this fellow mixed it up, and the rest is, literally, history.
Ohhh classic philosophy. Fine. My regular church going German friends who read Nietzsche must have gotten their wires crossed indefinitely. No wonder there was so much love.
Emma…it’s always nice to know there’s someone else 🙂 Even if you are all the way across the country. Good luck with your experiences!
I wouldnt consider Spinoza an atheist.
The notable thing about Western Europe is that though it has de-christianized; a very high percentage of the population is still theist, or believes in some sort of supernaturalism. While atheists, the American variety in any case, insist on the freakishness of theists, the remarkable persistence of theism demonstrates that its the atheists who in fact are the freaks.
I think it’s true that atheism is more accepted, or at least tolerated, in Indian society. I might have a skewed view, though, because the Gora mentioned above happens to be a relative of mine. Although I am not an atheist, and neither is anyone in my immediate family, and some are quite religious, we were all influenced by his teachings, resulting in a lot of intercaste marriages and socially progressive family dynamics. His own parents, who initially were upset, became quite accepting of his atheism (his father was a man well known for his devotion to Shiva).
Because I grew up hearing about Gora all the time, I kind of have a soft spot for atheists. Even if they don’t succeed in “converting” us theists, they are good about making us question our beliefs.
wonder how no one mentioned this before, but at least some schools of Vedantic Hindu thought consider Atheism (but not exactly the way we define Atheism) to be a part of Hinduism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism_in_Hinduism
I think it is. Americans are unlikely to elect an atheist president while I don’t think that’s true in India. I wonder if it has something to do with the leftist/communist bent of many of the ppl in the freedom movement. Apart from the communists in Kerala and Bengal, there was the Dravida movement in Tamilnadu which was full of avowed athiests. Perhaps it has something to do with Hinduism’s tolerance of belief and its lack of emphasis on having to believe a specific thing — eg. that so-and-so is the son of God or his prophet or whatever (and not threatening you with hell if you don’t also might help). Perhaps it comes down to a tolerance of other people’s beliefs (this of course is a completely separate issue from the Indian ethnic/religious conflicts which are more “tribal”).
Neither would I. He wasn’t.
I don’t know about the US, but in India people wouldn’t really notice if you are a religious person or not. Perhaps, this is because Hindus (who are still the majority) do not have any organization that stipulates appropriate behavior, and therefore, no one notices inappropriate behavior. (May be there are stray incidents in the villages – most of which are about inter-caste marriage. Please note I treat casteism as a kind of racism. I desist from blaming Hinduism for the misinterpretation of caste-determined-by-conduct as caste-determined-by-birth.)
i see them as people who are simple clueless about other people’s ability to surrender. the more they cannot understand why people surrender (which they misconstrue as a lack of grey matter), the more they get agitated at the practice of religion, and try to get rid of the baby (spirituality) with the bathwater (fundamentalism).
Probably ABDs tend to be atheists because 1) they do not want to succumb to assimilation, change their parents’ religion (i.e. not become Christians), and 2) at the same time they do not have much to cling on to as rituals (it takes a village etc etc). Although someone had mentioned families raise kids, but then compared to an Indian family, a family in the US has to work a lot harder to inculcate habits in the child(ren).
In my judgment, atheism will soon be the new fad, and the new opium. The key is tolerance, which many atheists do not have at all.
I am a Hindu because my father is a Hindu. And early childhood, I guess, is a precursor for many strongly held beliefs.
[Link] (scroll down, look under And God)
Oh that’s rich.
Neither would I. He wasn’t.
yes, he believed that the toilet was god! 😉 he wasn’t an atheist, but i think that it stretches the term “theism” to include spinoza’s thoroughly impersonal monism in the same branch as the followers of the One True God.
in any case, as an atheist, and not a shy one, i went to high school in a 75% republican area, and i was one of 4 non-whites in a school of 900, of muslim origin, and an open atheist (i had no compunctions mocking religion). there was also one open homosexual. guess who got beat up more??? the moral: beware of what polls say, most americans’ idea of atheism is abstract, the high bound number for those who reject god is around 5%. in a random situation that means 90% of the time that a theist meets someone would be a theist. less than 1% of the time would an atheist meet another atheist. of course, life isn’t random…and that is that broad swaths of american christendom don’t even know any atheists. americans may say that they dislike atheists more than muslims, but atheists don’t blow up planes, so who do you think practically induces more fear??? the goat-bearded muslim striking his in your face pious pose (or his XX equivalent sweating like a pig in their black tent) or the atheist? the point is that there are negative attitudes toward atheism that are very broad, but i suspect that they are shallow. i was a member of intervarsity and the korean americah christian fellowship to meet chix and i can attest that they talked about atheists now and then but had only a vague idea of what sort of persons they might be (until meeting me).
also, there are many nations where being an atheist is OK. in many parts of europe and east asia atheists are a significant minority of the population (and odd nations like uruguay, where free thought and anti-clericalism are powerful forces). indian tolerance of atheism and diversity of opinion is laudable, after all, they’re just as poor (or poorer) than muslim nations, but in the latter atheist is generally verbotten on pain of death (yes, no muslim nation practices the “true islam” yada yada).
guess who got beat up more???
i need to be clear here, i got into 3 fights, in which i kicked ass in 2 and was stalemated in 1. no large individuals approached me because i was good friends with many larger individuals. on the other hand, the gay kid got trashed every week, and sometimes more. my point is that the verbal polls aren’t a good gauge of the animus toward homosexuality vs. atheism vs. muslims. gay men prance around and muslims often like to go medieval 8th century in peoples’ faces, so there is a far stronger image in most american’s minds of these two groups, and they’ve been told a lot within the past generation not to be “bigoted” against them. on the other hand, atheism hasn’t been an issue, so casual avowed dislike is being registered, nothing very deep (though sometimes it can get serious, and religious coercion is a problem in some circumstances).
The terms theism and atheism are alien to the Indic tradition (or what some refer to as the Dharmic traditions). The God of the theistic traditions or the religions has no equivalent in the Indic tradition. It is incorrect to translate theist and atheist as astika and nastika. In the dharmic tradition, even the idea that religions are about truth claims is not accepted. Even more misplaced is the notion that atheism is rational or better described as rationalism. The idea of rationalism is in turn derived from the religious idea of the soul that supposedly endows man with the unique self and thence the faculty of reason, that leaves him with no choice but to accept the sinful nature of all life etc., Theism/atheism unless located in this context is misplaced.
The Indian ‘rationalists’ and ‘atheists’ were no doubt for the most part decent folk. However they weren’t pioneers at social reform as there were many others as active.
Antahkarana, I’m in the NYC area now!
BTW, I know of two families where older teens who were born/raised in the Midwest and say they relate more to Christianity. They haven’t really studied it, BUT their friends are mostly religious Christians.
Another case, a college-aged white guy just converted (same area as above teens)- his best friend is Muslim female. Islam keeps growing!
Going back to the parents wanting to have religion continue through generations… My dad often says that since we (kids) have Muslim parents, we are Muslim. End of story- it doesn’t matter that most of my (nuclear) family does not practice anything. I don’t agree w/ this- you can’t say you’re a vegetarian if you eat meat!
his best friend is Muslim female
me thinks he wants some muslim putang 🙂 muslims are generally ok with the menfolk going after some kuffar fleisch, but not the reverse. at least in america most men are circumcized so that won’t be an issue.
The terms theism and atheism are alien to the Indic tradition (or what some refer to as the Dharmic traditions). The God of the theistic traditions or the religions has no equivalent in the Indic tradition. It is incorrect to translate theist and atheist as astika and nastika. In the dharmic tradition, even the idea that religions are about truth claims is not accepted.
just to be clear, cognitive anthropologists basically have found that for most human beings all the above is gibberish. people basically believe in the same god concept cuz we’re all human. semantical juggling is for literate elites, something most humans weren’t, and aren’t.
My father is an avowed atheist 🙂 and a keen follower of the books of Joseph Edamaruku (a well-known rationalist and author); though I am not an atheist, I think his influence on me has been to question beliefs before believing them. It also helps that my mother is a rational believer.
There are no atheists in fox holes
You’re joking, right?
There are plenty of atheists in foxholes.
Go check out the website for the Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers (http://www.maaf.info/). It might correct your narrow-minded thinking.
And while we’re at it, there are proud indian atheists, too. I’m one.
Chill Winston…..It’s just an expression mate. I respect you right not to believe in God. I congratulate you on having the courage and conviction to believe in something, especially in the face of often hostile opposition. It’s merely an expression that relates to the fallability of man and the courage of conviction.
I suppose that you would not take Pascal up on his wager then eh?
Take care my friend.
I suppose that you would not take Pascal up on his wager then eh?
dude, you’re stupid (as are most christian apologetic tropes which benefit from their circle-jerking among the believers). speaking of human fallability, where does smug self-satisfaction fit into this?
So what are the percentages on a 73 year-old homosexual atheist then?
express your disagreements politely please, without personalizing them.
Thanks for the link Razib. I’ll look into it. Just trying to inject a little humor into a tense subject.
If the definition of Atheist is belief in non-existence of a One flesh-and-blood God in a place called Heaven, then all Hindus are atheists.
M. Nam
express your disagreements politely please, without personalizing them.
sorry.
Thanks for the link Razib. I’ll look into it. Just trying to inject a little humor into a tense subject.
you have a funny sense of humor (i’m being sarcastic). the atheists in the foxhole saying is tiresome and trades in stereotypes which get old. free thinkers like ethan allen died for our freedoms, just as deists, christians and jews did. no group has a monopoly on passion, william wilberforce might have been an evangelical christian, but most of the anti-slavery activists in france where secular anti-clericalists (like lafayette). as for pascal’s wager, blaise pascal didn’t formulate it with the intent that most people who whip it out use it. the refutations are trivial, and you can generate an “atheist optimized” cost vs. benefit matrix pretty easily (simply expand the supernatural entities beyond the ones that pascal stipulated), but i doubt that will convince anyone….
“‘There are no atheists in foxholes’ isn’t an argument against atheism, it’s an argument against foxholes.”
But most people seem to prefer foxholes.
Sorry if I was provocative. This kind of thing is really irritating.
I meant unnecessarily provocative.
This is a paradox I’ve long noticed about Amrikis vs desis when it comes to atheism – dominantly Christian amrikis will be more likely to state that they are either atheists or believers, partly because they belong to a religious tradition that requires you to believe definite things, I think (even though the idea that Americans are “not that religious” is a myth as any poll will show you); desis, on the other hand, are more likely to be OK with no firm religious belief, and less comfortable with people insisting you have to accept x y or z specifically to be “saved,” but perhaps because they haven’t had to confront the idea of required beliefs quite so frontally, are less comfortable with calling themselves “atheists.” We’re more likely to call ourselves agnostic. “Nastik” has very negative, immoral associations. I find that south Indians are more likely to call themselves atheist, probably due to the tradition of the self-respect movement, and people from conservative Brahmin backgrounds are also more likely to come out and say they are atheist, perhaps because religion was more of a required part of their everyday lives?
BTW, Savarkar was practically an atheist but Golwalkar certainly wasn’t! Bal Thackeray went through a brief phase when he announced he was atheist after his wife died but has reverted since.
Disclaimer: I am new to the US so I might have gotten it all wrong.
My impression is that atheism in the US is seen as highly correlated with one’s views on a lot of political issues, eg, they are generally seen as pro-choice, pro gay rights, liberal, anti-war, anti-creationism, etc. So when you tell a person you are an atheist, they make (some usually correct, some erroneous) assumptions about your political views, and perhaps this contributes to the animosity. Religion has become mixed up with politics far more than it should be.
In India however there is far less correlation between religious beliefs and social/political beliefs. Being an atheist is not a strong predictor for any other views one might hold, so there’s less reason why people would dislike one simply for being one. And also there’s the usual reasons about hinduism being a lot more flexible as a faith.
When I was initially asked about my religious beliefs in the US, I’d say I am an atheist with the naive assumption that this would mean the end of the discussion on religious faith(who’d discuss faith with someone who doesn’t have any). To my surprise, this turned out to be far from the case. People were extremely curious how I could not believe in God, but in a very condescending manner (I had never met with any curiosity or condescension wrt this in India). So now I just tell them hindu just so they’d leave me alone(though of course now I have to explain why I worship cows 😉 ) .
SP writes: >>dominantly Christian amrikis will be more likely to state that they are either atheists or believers, partly because they belong to a religious tradition that requires you to believe definite things
True. And this has shown up in foreign policy more than once. Case in point: Nixon and his cohorts trusted a Bhutto more than Indira Gandhi, because Bhutto with his strong Islamic beliefs, propensity to violence, pillage and hatred was far more predictable than the atheist Indira who accepted the necessary Hindu philosphical influence without which India would no longer be India.
M. Nam
Secularism is more fun.
Case in point: Nixon and his cohorts trusted a Bhutto more than Indira Gandhi, because Bhutto with his strong Islamic beliefs, propensity to violence, pillage and hatred was far more predictable than the atheist Indira who accepted the necessary Hindu philosphical influence without which India would no longer be India.
It must be so cool to be a Hindu. You would never hate, marry snakes and trees, get rid of your propensity to violence and stop pillaging. How can I become a Hindu?
far more predictable than the atheist Indira
I doubt Indira Gandhi was an atheist. She was enamored of Jiddu Krishnamurti thanks to her friend Pupul Jayakar, who was the doyen of high culture in Delhi for a long time, and actually spent time with him. Krishnamurthi was a non-theistic mystic; he critiqued Hindu social practices and its modes of attaining moksha (release) but his teaching, examined carefully, was not far from the Upanishads–or Sam Harris for that matter!
but Golwalkar certainly wasn’t!
Okay, but there was one other major Hindutvan after Savarkar. I’ll have to look it up.
AMFD – sometimes the Hindutva nuts are the best argument against their arguments. And besides, Indira Gandhi was far from atheist, thrived on Durga comparisons, talked about the Sikh threat to Hindus and started going to temples like crazy in the late 70s/early 80s. But let’s not get sidetracked by that nonsense.
Risible, are you perhaps thinking of Hedgewar?
How in the world do you extrapolate that “fact”? I resent the tone and implication of that statement.
From personal experience, I think there’s a lot to that idea. It took my parents a long time to genuinely embrace my girlfriend (now wife), who’s not only white, but was raised Jewish. I think my mom in particular clings to her religion as one of the few cultural anchors that she can pass along to her ABD kids. I give my folks a lot of credit for not pushing Christianity in particular since I got married and became a dad – they’ll occasionally gently remind me that “it’s important to have some kind of faith”, inferring a religious one but never flat-out saying it). I wonder if they’ve silently figured out that we’re both closet atheists and are just trying nudge the boat, as opposed to rocking it.
From prolonged and tired debates with my atheist friends on God/No God, why-this-why-that … i think that was an overstatement, so please consider it ‘a disputable fact‘. 🙂
The key is
toleranceconversational tolerance, whichmanysome atheists do not have at all.Probably, the situation is different in different locations, and social movements gain their deserved importance and legitimacy.