If you get your news mainly from US outlets, you’ve probably heard by now about the alleged plot foiled yesterday in Birmingham, England, in which extremists planned to kidnap a British Muslim soldier whilst on leave and execute him as a collaborator. There are some reports today that the plotters had as many as 25 targets identified.
But you may not have heard about the big debate that has erupted in Britain, also this week, about the results of a survey and report called “Living Apart Together: British Muslims and the Paradox of Multiculturalism,” by Policy Exchange, which most reports describe as a right-of-center think-tank. The results of the survey that have garnered the most attention suggest, among other findings, that a surprisingly large proportion of British Muslims would like to live under Sharia. There are of course major debates about how the question was phrased and what the responses imply in practice. It is also clear that the British Muslim community is no monolith, and all commentators are zooming in on the fact that more “extremist” or “separatist” stances are much more common among the youngest respondents (18-24) and progressively less so in the older groups. Again, what this means is being hotly discussed.
I don’t have time right now to do the topic justice, but hopefully commenters here, especially from the UK, will give us some perspectives. My man Sunny Hundal is already on the case along with the commenters at Pickled Politics. There are many other views online at the Guardian’s op-ed site, including this one from Dave Hill and this from Timothy Garton-Ash; you can root around the main UK papers for more. Be prepared for fatuous pieces too, such as this one that says folks shouldn’t worry about youth Islamic radicalism in the UK as it’s just the same kind of temporary rebellion that hippie kids displayed in the 1960s. Talk about adding nothing to the debate. Finally, if you have the time and inclination you can read the full report and crunch the numbers; let us know what you find.
However I found the most valuable summation of the discussion in this article at the website Spiked, by the lead author of the report, Munira Mirza (the report co-authors are Abi Senthilkumaran and Zein Ja’far). Here the sister responds to the first wave of discussion and makes some useful points:
The headlines affirmed what many people already suspected: that some younger Muslims in Britain are more likely to express ‘radical’ views than older Muslims; that is, they’re likely to be attracted to political forms of Islam or have a more politicized approach to their religion. However, the research itself revealed a more complex and contradictory picture of British Muslims than these first impressions suggest, and that headlines such as ‘Young Muslims more militant’ allow. Behind the headlines, there’s a broad diversity of opinions and experiences within what is surely the most intensely scrutinised group in Britain. One of our aims was to get past the sensationalist tendency to portray Muslims as ‘the problem’ – either as potential terrorists or as victims of Islamophobia – in order to get at a bigger picture.
It’s worth quoting at length:
Firstly, the majority of Muslims are well integrated into British society – they want to live under British law and they prefer to send their children to mixed state schools. They do not live in bleak ghettoes cut off from society. Their religion is not a barrier to integration and is very often perfectly reconciled with being – and feeling – British. Most of them are comfortable supporting the national football team and having strong relationships with non-Muslims. And while some younger Muslims are more interested in learning about their religion, many others feel it plays little role in their lives – they indulge in rather secular habits such as drinking and having pre-marital relationships. Although there is a definite increase in support for sharia amongst younger Muslims, we should be wary of seeing this as an automatic qualification for being labelled ‘Islamist’ or ‘extremist’. There will be complex reasons for why individuals responded to this question in the way they did, and there was little evidence in our research to suggest that most want it imposed in the UK, as some newspapers wrongly interpreted.
As Sunny and others have done, Munira offers this observation about youth disaffection and search for identity in general:
The collapse of older collective political and national identities has meant that younger people in general are searching for meaning in their lives. Some of them are turning to Islam as a kind of politicised identity in the absence of much else. A similar impulse lies behind the resurgence of regional identities, such as Scottishness, or even Englishness.
It’s right after this however that many American readers are likely to first feel taken aback:
Moreover, the political philosophy of multiculturalism, with its stress on institutionalising difference, has encouraged younger people from ethnic groups to believe that theyÂ’re different from each other, and that they need special recognition and protection. Paradoxically, by insisting on engaging with Muslims as a distinct group, the authorities make many of them feel even more excluded from the mainstream, which leads in turn to an intensification of the search for identity.
This moves the discussion into the realm of public policy, which is the whole point of course, but does so with an off-hand definition of “multiculturalism,” a term that is bandied about a great deal in the UK political conversation but has nothing close to an agreed meaning, either as a political philosophy let alone as a program of policy action. (Timothy Garton-Ash makes this point.) As a result much of the debate involves defenses or indictments of “multiculturalism” that end up talking past one another. Clearly there are issues at hand in Britain about the allocation of government funds in education and other areas, about the flexibility of the legal system, about who participates in policy-making and on what basis, and so forth, that all interrogate Britain’s approach to ethnic, cultural and religious diversity.
I want to leave this subject relatively open, but at the same time I want to share an interesting observation by a commenter named Neil at the New York Times blog The Lede (which is sort of the hangar where they put stories that are deemed interesting but not big enough to make the front page of the site). This comment is interesting to me in part because the writer announces himself as an American desi, and in part for the comparison he draws:
What is missed in this discussion is a focus on the accuracy of the term “embracing of multiculturalism”. That glowing description is certainly not how I perceive Britons to be treating people of color within their society. I am a proud American who happens to be of Indian (from India) descent. I know many “Britons” of Indian descent but none of them are even remotely “proud to be British”. The reasons underlying that discrepancy is the inability by Europeans to accept people from other cultures as truly one of their own. This in turn stems from societal racism and xenophobia that has not been confronted the same way we Americans have over the past several decades and even centuries. It is also explained by the historical foundations of most European states (usually ethnic and racial, unlike the USA).
Those factors are a far cry from “embracing multiculturalism”, which is a meaningless term that I don’t comprehend to begin with. The US supposedly embraces “assimilation” rather than multiculturalism. But what does this mean in concrete terms? For me personally, “assimilation” has not prevented me from speaking the native language of my parents (which I do), practicing their religious tradition (which I do), being in touch with my ancestral roots (which I am), and associating with other people of the same ethnic background (which I do). Britain experiences these problems because Britons are not ready to accept people of color into their society for racist reasons, and that is the bottom line.
I’m not inclined to make the same sweeping generalization this brother makes in his last sentence, and I’d also note that he clearly has his own definitions of assimilation and multiculturalism. But beyond the terminology, his testimonial and the underlying point he makes remind us of the difference between the nation-of-immigrant narratives of the US and some other countries, and the unified-national-identity narratives now being questioned in European nation-states.
I need to leave it at that for now but look forward to people’s comments, from the UK, US and anywhere else. I’m also asking the SM Intern and Rajni the Monkey to remove any sectarian or abusive comments — this topic is too serious and much too interesting.
I read the report and would urge everyone to do so, and not take the media soundbites at face value. It’s especially interesting to see how the questions about sharia are phrased – they seem to reflect conservative religious and sexual attitudes more broadly, and aren’t about Islamic law particularly, IMHO. Still troubling to see that so many young people are as conservative as they are.
Note that OBL gets very little play even among these newly conservative youth, and their concerns seem to be much more about domestic British politics + US foreign policy than about the ummah writ large.
First of all. Great piece. There’s a lot to chew on here. I cannot comment to the racial dynamics of the UK outside of anecdotal information and scholarship I’ve read on the topic. With that qualification let me say, surveys are easily manipulated and I am glad there are so many writers in the UK public responding to this survey by attempting to attack it at its main points (how the questions were asked, to whom they were asked), however it is unfortunate that they have chosen to focus on the buzz of multicultural. As for the NYT desi American, I would say he should take a strong look at the institutional racism that surrounds him and his ability to speak his (native) language and the assumptions made about his cultural practices. The UK for better or worse has a stronger reputation of racism, probably something actually approximating a hierarchical “multiculturalism” where many cultures co-exist but do not necessarily mix, much like a mixture where only the smallest dissolve, leaving each item relatively distinct. Assimilation is required everywhere. The extent to which it forcefully occurs from the state and one dominating culture is what needs to be of concern.
Bidi,
The last sentence in your comment is interesting. Are you suggesting native English should start speaking Urdu?
Gazsi
I’m too knackered to debate these issues anymore. I’m glad Siddhartha took issue with Neil’s final line though, because I’m exhausted by Americans or others like him making such sweeping statements based on their own half-knowledge and limited experience.
This debate about multiculturalism is not just in England. In Holland the immigration policy has been changed, and now you need to pass a Dutch language and culture test from your home country if you want to become a resident. Other countries like Germany, Denmark, and Australia immigration reform has become a hot button topic. Even in Sweden right-wing anti-immigration political movements are growing.
I read the Times blog entry and responses before reading naina’s post on racism, the “p” word, the “g” word, etc. and I remarked to myself how similar the various sentiments expressed in the comments to the NYT entry to the comments folks were leaving under Naina’s post.
Have a look and see.
I don’t see how the “they’re just being kids” interpretation is necessarily fatuous. Youth rebellion has been a major contributor to ideological and philosophical trends throughout history. It’s worth examining whether the strict Islam that kids are embracing would necessarily lead to “fanaticism”, but ideological rebellion strikes me as being as good an explanation as anything else.
Hanif Khureishi published a story about this generational shift called My Son the Fanatic in Zoetrope back in 2003. It makes a case for the son.There’s a follow up essay from him that, like the story, is available for a fee.
I think the underpinnings of European rigidity derive from the (con)fusion of church and state, conflation-nation.
I just saw that there was a movie after the story with Om Puri as the father. I never heard of it before. Anyhow, about the story, I nver saw a more clear or sympathetic portrayal of what’s going on.
This issue is a serious one and a just cause for concern for many. Extremist thoughts in youth can result in mass murder, as the london bombings showed us. However; treading the fine line between providing security for the country while not offending the sensibilities of the ethinic groups is a difficult task indeed. Couple that with the effect of a few individuals actions on the suspicions of many a native westerner to the Middle Eastern looking individual who does not in the least look like a cave dwelling, kalashnikov wielding paradise seeker.
However one cannot blame the youth for being what they are because of their failure to assimilate to their surroundings despite them being born there.
Islam in UK is following a trend that a portion of the African-American community is facing. In the fight to maintain an identity, violence is often used as a resort and that the younger generation are prone to this ‘gangsta’ identity.
The options are there: Ban further immigration, restrict freedom of speech and save ‘guest rooms’ for the likes of people like Anjem Chaudhary. But we all know what the long term consequences are, of these acts.
The other one being what the UK is following now, surveys, efforts at assimillation, tolerance along with in-state espionage.
I believe the UK has to take a more Machiavellian approach to the situation. Every community can be transformed by a leader. The government has to clandestinely support a youthful leader with enough fire and charisma to mold the minds of the younger generation to one where loyalty to the state not religion is paramount. And slowly eliminate the influence of spineless leaders like the above mentioned chaudary. Actions that influence the masses is the key to change.
Kesh,
What are these consequences? Since you “know”, you presumably have data points you would be willing to share?
How I wish Malcolm X were still with us.
I am still here. Don’t believe the rumors. What can I do for you, coach?
What is Maclom X?
Red Snapper,
Agreed. I’ll let the issue at hand pass for the moment because I don’t have anything of particular substance to contribute, plus the subject has been gone over a zillion times already. But I’ll just say that I’m a bit troubled by the sweeping statements made in Neil’s writing. I’ll just say that I think it’s a bit much to say that societies in Europe are built on racism and xenophobia. I’m sorry to say that such claims are made on highly limited experiences. I’ve been living here for 15 years, having grown up here, and not once have I been nervous or afraid of speaking my native language in public. I may not don Indian attire in the open but that stems more from a preference for not standing out. I’m not denying that there is certainly a racist underbelly in many places, but thusfar opportunities have never been barred from my reach. That is all.
It’s worth noting that gang violence has declined precipitously in most US cities. There are competing explanations for this, but declining racist attitudes among policymakers, community policing which frames the police as an ASSET rather than an ENEMY of minorities, and (marginally) increased economic opportunity play their roles.
I really think that assimilation runs both ways. If you create a framework where assimilating is easier and safer for young people to accept than division (economically, but also in terms of pride and self-respect), I don’t see why anyone would want to completely reject the society. That does NOT preclude a certain amount of self-mediated aesthetic rejection meant to freak people out/assert individuality/be teenagers, though.
Torpedo,
Sure, My main point is the danger of Britain turning into a ‘police state’ if it followed the policies i mentioned in my last post. Don’t get me wrong, i’m not advocating it.
I hear you Red Snapper and Meena: I get tired of blanket desciptions of America and Americans in the media, too, often by people with limited knowledge of the place, a quick trip through Florida and 24 on the television, or people who are trying to make the individual pieces of internet data fit their own pre-conceived notions. So, I heartily sympathize.How hard it must be to have people burn effigies of your politicians.
As for racism in Britian, how do I know? Ain’t been there since I was one years old…..Now, how hard was that?
Indian diaspora in the west, particularly in England, should take steps to highlight the difference between us [Indians] and them [Pakistani and other Muslims]. Now, now, no name calling please. I am one of you. Just like you, I want what is best for our people. By our people I mean, progressive “South Asians” only. Not Pakistanis, who hate Indians with a passion. And never miss an opportunity to take an anti-India stance.
Noticed in the picture above that there is not a single derogatory name aimed at Indians explicitly. That in itself speaks volumes?
For anyone interested in these issues, I recommend the book Bloody Foreigners: The Story of Immigration to Britain. I generally find history books dull and dry, but this one had me completely riveted. Winder starts way back at the very beginning of people first moving to the island and goes up to present day. His conclusion is pretty much that while Brits have grumbled about foreigners for hundreds of years (fabulous quotes from newspapers in the 1600s sounding just like today’s tabloids), in the end they suck it up and absorb them without too much violence — UNLIKE every other country in Europe, which historically routinely expelled people onto the shores of Britain. His point is that there really never HAS been “a true Brit” because the population changes so dramatically every generation. Seriously, this book is so in-depth and fascinating and revelatory that it should be required reading in UK schools.
midwestern eastender
Just followed your link, read the review and bought the book from Amazon, looks great, thanks.
Nusrat, that you for providing the ignorant statement of the day.
Abhi, I beg to differ, I think this line of his was stupider.
Abhi, as much as you might not agree, Nusrat’s sentiment seems to be very much pervasive beneath the surface and sometimes quite explicit when it comes to Muslim issues on Sepiamutiny. People would just wish Muslims didn’t live so close and look like Indians. Many people in here don’t want their social mobility hindered by Muslim backwardness and terrorocity.
You know…you might be right. Its rare that someone takes slots 1 and 2 in the same day.
While many may not like the comments by Nusrat in post #19 it is an issue that is dividing the South Asian community. Many leaders of the Sikh and Hindu community’s in England don’t like being called South Asian or British Asian and would rather be known as British Hindu’s and British Sikh’s.
I was surprised when I heard about this but. The right wing Britsh National Party has even has some support from some in the sikh and hindu community. Shocking?
Hello, as multiculturalism and race relations has become one of my fave topics, and people pay me for that sh!t, here is a contribution or two.
There are several issues here. I’ve been arguing for a long time to separate issues of cohesion and “integration” with Muslims…. because they are not the same. Many Muslims here are quite poor (especially in the north) and do badly at school. Plus, there has been “white flight” and other factors why immigrants have bunched together. Just because some kids are blowing people up, the focus on integration has become a Muslim thing. I think it relates to everyone – white people also have to integrate (or learn to live besides) brown people and vice versa.
The second point is about racism. The Shilpa Shetty controversy obviously made racist bullying, without necessarily using cuss words such as ‘paki’ into a much more understood phenomena and the Sun’s stance is a good one. Except the paper is very hypocritical – it probably does more to make people fear each other than any other.
The Think tank reoprt is a separate issue in itself. It talks about ‘shariah law’, the growing religiousity of the younger generation and the lack of national cohesiveness. I don’t like its conclusions but I do like the research. It is detailed and intelligent… although its modern British conservativism in its outlook and I’m not conservative.
On this point, I do think some of the people embracing Shariah are doing it as a protest vote against democracy because its become a dirty word…. especially as GW Bush keeps talking about installing democracy in other countries.
There has always been a debate around multiculturalism, unfortunately it means different things for different people… and we still don’t largely know what would be the outcome if the term, and how it translates into govt policy, was dropped.
There are interesting times to be in Britain, that’s for sure 🙂
Sorry, meant “These” in the last sentence.
great comment sunny.
Well, everyone seems to have beaten up on Neil in the nytimes blog for the blanket statement towards the end of his piece. That I don’t disagree with – but I agree with what he says about the inherent fuzziness of concepts like ‘multiculturalism’. I also hope that those who make it over to the nytimes blog to read Neil’s piece also read the piece directly above it by Mark Klein, MD.
Frankly, I feel he hits the nail bang on the head, describing a phenomenon rather analogous to that currently being discussed. I’ve known many young American Jewish guys who go to Israel for a summer and then return with a yarmulke, a beard, and a fervent, if not perfervid, religiosity, praying thrice a day (as required of observant Jews) for example. Often, before going to Israel, they have felt a profound alienation in American society, even though the parents were ‘assimilated’ professional Jews. I know at least two guys who came back, started keeping kosher, and could no longer eat at their own parents’ table. The women similarly, often begin to wear Jewish headscarves and other ‘modest attire’ – that is, when they subsequently choose to be seen publicly at all. The Jewish prayer cap and beard, the segregation of the sexes that the Orthodox observe, the ‘modest attire’ required of Orthodox Jewish women, the idea of kosher, etc resemble the corresponding Muslim traditions, and not coincidentally either.
The miltary service that Dr. Klein describes his daughter performing in Israel is rather analogous to some of the ‘missions’ that the British youth seem to go on. I think the lesson for us is that as long as there is religion, there will be some who will take it seriously; as long as there are religions with clearly defined ‘fundaments’ (e.g. pray three/five times a day, circumcise the men etc), there will also be fundamentalists and Orthodox versions and followers. So the best we can hope for, I think, is a situation where different degrees of religious piety will co-exist in South Asian immigrant communities – among, within and across generations, just as they do in other communities. This is not to rule out rebelliousness, idealism or plain cussedness in the responses the young Britons gave to the ‘survey’, or to rule out methodological issues in the survey itself – loaded questions, biased sample, etc.
“African-ness” and by that we all really mean “blackness” in America,in contrast to a set of beliefs/faith or sexual orientation is not an Identity that has to be defined and /maintained. Nor is it something that can be disguised or assimilated away from when it’s in your best intrest to do so. Ganngsta/thug life’ is not about identity**- its a {weak-self defeating} REaction to economic/social marginalization. Any violence you in this context is about maintaining a place in the prison system.
I self identify as African American in a preemptive description to state the obvious. For me it cut down on a lot of “innocent” St Patrick day questions such as; are you Irish? And to acknowledge that my existence in the universe did not began as someones property in the New World. A ‘newer’ arrival from Africa will have the luxury of knowing exactly where he/she is from and could identify as a Senegalese American for example– but at some point all the hyphenated identities just get stupid. While there may be some appeal for people wanting to say I’m not the problem”- its those others [who look like me] @# 19 #20 who are the problem. Its just as pathetic as this
** to your point that a separate language/world view/societal norms are available to people who in many cases are marginalized economically that difference can be used to ‘turn the tables’. Eg we don’t want to be part of your morally inferior society anyway.
There are other versions of institutionalised segregation in Britain. In northern England, Muslim communities ARE not living in the same places as mainstream, white Britons. Islamophobia is real and alive, real enough for my white English housemates to think that I was being kidnapped when I stopped to have a conversation with one of my many Muslim neighbours. The British government funds schools made exclusively for Muslim children, particularly in Yorkshire, where Muslims make up much of the working class.
Plus, there has been no Malcolm X, MLK Jr, Gandhi figure in England. No civil rights movement + a relatively non-litigious society = breeding ground for racial tension.
This could be the case in other parts of Europe also but I don’t know as I haven’t lived elsewhere!
One more thing — just remember that the end of British colonialism was recent enough to be in the memories of much of the British population. Ghana became independent in 1957! In terms of stereotypes, there are plenty of people who grew up believing that the browns and blacks are slaves and/or sex objects.
The racism is only intertwined with Islamophobia; if you look brown, you are potentially a target. The problems with public drunkenness only exacerbate the overt hatred.
Sorry — I am pretty fired up about the UK multiculturalism debate because I had a whole slew of BS when I lived there last year.
This debate on this issue is started to become a little one-sided here. It all can’t all be the fault of the Britsh, can it.
clueless, i agree — violence is perpetrated on both sides, like 7/7. but this is always the chicken-and-egg, isn’t it? do you change policies to “engineer” the behavior of the public or do you expect the public to change before policies do?
i’m just saying that IN BRITAIN, there is a lot of historical resentment working against Asians, and that doesn’t help the situation one bit.
This is not just a problem in England, but in almost every country in Europe where there immigrants of a muslim background. Anti-immigration groups are becoming more and more popular in places like Germany, Sweden, Holland, Denmark and Belgum. In those countries many would like to see stop to immigration from muslim countries.
but Germany, Sweden, Holland, Denmark and Belgium do not have the same history of imperialism in South Asia or the same relationships the creation of Israel that Britain does.
I’m sure there are plenty of Americans who would support restricting immigration from traditionally Muslim countries as well, and maybe in the next 50 years we’ll see a similar backlash by Muslim fundamentalists here. However, at that point in time there will be a history of US imperialism in the Muslim world, just like presently there is a history of British imperialism in South Asia.
Re: your comment about British Hindus & Sikhs supporting right-wing parties; the same exists in the US by folks who self-identify as Hindu-American and support political caucuses and politicians who are pro-war/anti-Muslim.
I used to live in Sweden before I moved to UK and later on US, and let me state I like Sweden as much as the other countries. But it is definetly harder to be South Asian in Sweden than i UK or US. The kind of white trash racism that exists in US and UK especially is something you will not see in Seden. You will most likley experince less name calling.
However, in terms of opportunity your are always likley to come in second hand when you send in your job application, you might experience that nightclubs won’t let you in and so on.
It is true that Scandinavians mostly dislike muslims, infact most people have a rather positive view of India, but as a colored person they will alwys believe that you are a muslim, because colored people in Sweden generally are muslims.
Multiculturalism does not work. It creates an Us v Them atmosphere. In places such as Australia where multiculturalism was a policy promoted by the government you had an industry of so called ethnic leaders getting money/ grants from the government basically to promote and instutionalise difference.
Finally they dumped multiculturalism and are promoting integration. The department of immigration, multiculturalism and indegineous affairs (DIMIA) became department of immigration and multicultralism (DIMA), with indegineous affairs becoming a new stand alone department, which has now been renamed to department of immigration and citizenship(DIAC).
Isn’t it all about class, accent and attitude? When I read such posts, I realize that there are pockets of co-ethnics who suffer racism and develop a consequent radicalism, but I don’t actually relate. Maybe I’m just oblivious, but being a product of a good university and holding down a reasonable job (and don’t many of you have the same profile?) makes me at ease in most situations and amongst most cultures. In what universe would a ‘chav’ like Jade be a threat to me? Apart from being subject to a statistically improbable number of random checks at airports, there is not much I can complain about. Am I alone in this perception?
The piece may be fatuous, but dilettante mujahids and goth muhajibs — it’s not much of a stretch. Some of you might remember the character in Zadie Smith’s White Teeth? Hollywood mafia dialogue kept going through his head: ‘Ever since I can remember, I’ve wanted to be a MUSLIM’ – door click. Cool plus nerdy (he ended up joining something called Keepers of the Eternal Victory of the Islamic Nation — KEVIN) — doesn’t sound that far-fetched to me.
I hear you. I feel confident enough with my own Dutch Desi identity not to feel threatened by racist comments from low-life trash. Personally I’d be much more bothered if someone attacked my character. I hope others here can start to feel the same way as well.
And Samjay, I guess that’s where being female makes all the difference.
so meena, just bullying would upset you more than the racism?
i’m not sure prejudice of any kind is completely a class phenomena. consider BNP leaders and a certain American senator who have thrown around racial epithets/Islamophobic comments publicly. they aren’t working class or lower class; they are white, middle to upper-middle class men in positions of power.
samjay, what is the language being used to define insiders and outsiders? re: shilpa shetty, when british newspapers referenced “us” vs. “them,” they usually wrote about a language gap, ie immigrants not speaking English, but CBB just showed how shetty, who speaks English well and adopts many “Western” habits was still victimized.
to some extent, it’s true that people can’t make you feel marginalized unless you allow them to, but when the pressure is coming from those in positions of power who control your salary, it is emotionally difficult. what i don’t fully comprehend is how folks don’t realize that everyone is sensitive — ever try to disagree with a bully? they get angry, and yes, anger is an emotion and a reaction to insensitive comments.
This is interesting..
Well yes basically. If someone calls me out on my skin colour, heritage or looks I can’t be bothered. Which is why I really can’t get worked up so much about discussions on racism. And of course bullying can appear in the form of racism. When I was younger I was bullied extensively but never about my colour or culture. Probably it’s easy for me to talk though because I haven’t experienced systematic racism.
Yes Sunny makes good points.
Hey Meena are you in Amsterdam? I loved talking to all the Indians I met from Surinam that I met there. I got such a thrill out of hearing their stories.
RS,
Nope, I’m from a town which is a fair distance travelling actually from Amsterdam, and which has nowhere near as many foreigners as Amsterdam. 🙂 When I moved here 15 yrs ago it was almost 100% white. Now there are a few more foreigners(including desis) but not even close to the >60% one encounters in some areas in Amsterdam.
Oh and I’ll have to say that Indians from Surinam are quite a different sort altogether than Indians from India.
Definitely! That’s why I found them so interesting. Anyway, I really like Holland, I used to go out with a lady from Friesland. Great football nation too.
Gaszi,
So I’ve abstained for a bit and to be honest I feel similarly to Abhi, there are some comments above that are incredibly ignorant. But, let me respond to your first question: “Are you suggesting native English should start speaking Urdu?”. I stand by the assumption that a majority group is always willing to inflict assimilation on a minority group. That majority group can be of any color. I have yet to see proof that a majority group can understand and continuously think of the minority as they will themselves. Cultural superiority is always cultivated and perpetuated. =/ So to be short about it. If there were three English speakers randomly living among 100-some Urdu speakers…yeah, they would all be forced to learn Urdu.
At the same