Pay attention…this is very important, Satveer. Have you noticed Jesus for yourself…at some moment in time, yet???
That is the advice offered to newly re-elected Minnesota state senator Satveer Chaudhary by his defeated opponent, Rae Hart Anderson, in the concession e-mail she sent him in lieu of the customary phone call. (Thanks, tipster “pardesi”!)
Minneapolis-St. Paul TV station WCCO helpfully provides verbatim text of the e-mail. A true light for Christ, Ms. Anderson proffers an odd form of congratulations before giving our heathen brother some news he can use:
I’ve enjoyed much of this race, especially the people I’ve met…even you! I see your deficits–not all of them, and your potential–but not all of it. Only your Creator knows the real potential He’s put in you. Get to know Him and know yourself…you’ll be more interesting even to you!
The race of your life is more important than this one–and it is my sincere wish that you’ll get to know Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. He died for the sins of the world, yours and mine–and especially for those who accept His forgiveness.
The message continues in this vein, with quotes from Scripture, before ending as follows:
There’s nothing like belonging to Christ…not winning, not money, not degrees…it’s the best.
Good wishes and better wishes…until you wish for the best!
“To get a sermon is definitely a surprise,” Chaudhary told WCCO. (Perhaps he should write back: “Tat tvam asi, Rae!”) Incidentally, Chaudhary’s state senate district overlaps with the US Congress district of Keith Ellison, the nation’s first Muslim congressman, who was asked this gem of a question a couple of days ago on CNN Headline News. It seems that in Minnesota, much of the Lord’s work remains shamefully undone.
Oh, and this…
hairy_d:
I love when he talks dirty.
We actually discourage it pretty actively.
Becuase if we converted more people to Judaism, we’d have to sell to them at wholesale prices too. It would cut into our profit margins, nu?
Wonkette cites Siddharta’s story :
One commenter writes:
Dear Defunct Candidate Anderson,
After taking a suitable period to digest your previous missive I have decided to reply. I appreciate your interest in my well-being, now and in the afterlife. I haveo nly one question for you? Have you accepted Kali as your personal lady and savior? Judging by the fine work the people in your party and of your faith have been doing in Asia the past 3 year, I suspect you may know her all too well, whether you realize it or not! Just knowq, for her every hand, there is a 1-fingered salute for you and those like you!
May Kali keep you warm in her embrace!Satveer
Senator Chaudhary is not squeaky clean in this. WCCO-TV is a very liberal cheerleader media outlet and Senator Chaudhary has a history of playing the media like a fine violin. The man goes out of his way to be offended and gets quite sanctimonious about it.
See the summary of the situation at http://bootson.blogspot.com
Wah wah, that’s super-refined super-synthetic top-notch trollish!! I’m sure he set up his machiavellian play so that he’d obtain an offending letter by trickery, so he could be offended, so he could continue to play the media like a violin!!!
WTH/F??
I read some of the comments and had to have a lot of patience with the language mistakes. Most do not seem to take any trouble to correct their language mistakes. This makes reading painful and understanding very difficult. I am of Indian origin and Christian. Taught many non-Christian children in school without attempting to convert anyone. If the Europeans had forced Christianity on Indians, I am sure there would have been more than a mere 2% Christians today. So that proves it was never pushed down one’s throat in India.
Having now lived in the US for 19 years, in my Senior years I have taken to trying to understand different faiths. I often wonder if my faith is wholly true. The one God, three persons ( Trinity), Jesus Eternal presence among us. Our receiving Him in the Blessed Sacraments etc. Just now, I am reading a book titled Mysteries, Marvels and Miracles in the lives of Catholic Saints. There are innumerabe instances of bilocation ( being present in two places at the same time), Levitation ( being raised off the floor when in ecstacy), Incurruptible bodies after death. Some saints have been dead for centuries and their bodies are fresh to date. Actually the body of St. Francis Xavier is still in India in Goa. He died in the 1600s. He was one of the earliest missionariesfrom Europe. This helps me believe my faith and accept it as true.
Many more miracles have been described cures from illness. Blindness and deafness cured. Jesus, Mary, Angels and saints have appeared to many people telling them about the after life. Some have actually been shown a vision of hell.
I would like to know if these sort of miraculous things happen in Hinduism and Islam. Then we could compare and contrast and see where the TRUTH lies. But if people want to keep their truth to themselves, then that would be a very selfish thing to do. This is what I see in almost all the letters. To keep controversial subjects to themselves alone is no way to learn the truth .I am sure Jesus would like to be known, so one has to speak up for Him. In fact, he Commanded that and we will be failing in our duty if we remain silent. Accepting or rejecting is the choice given to us by God. We Christians cannot stand before Jesus on Judgment Day and say we never bothered to tell everybody else about Him. So there is nothing wrong in being told what one believes. We need to talk about death and the after life as Jesus told us about it. Hindus believe in reincarnation and we believe in Heaven, Hell and Purgatory. Both beliefs cannot be true. One has to be wrong or both wrong.
I dare not say Jesus is wrong when I believe He is God . I believe He is God because He said so and proved it. I am ever ready to learn and exchange views and ideas without running anyone or any religion down. I respect human intelligence and we all have to be humble enough to admit we can be wrong and misunderstand scripture.
Noela Noronha opined,
If the Europeans had forced Christianity on Indians, I am sure there would have been more than a mere 2% Christians today. So that proves it was never pushed down one’s throat in India.
Well, a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goa_Inquisition would tell you that it wasn’t for want of trying. So, it doesn’t really prove much. And I don’t know whether you tried to convert your students or not, but I do know that there are such attempts by religiously motivated teachers (christians and others). (In fact, a friend of mine from a catholic run school in Calcutta was telling me how speaking any language other than English on school premises is punishable by caning).
Either way, I think its the Noela Noronha/Rae Anderson types amongst christians that really get on our nerves – the whole, I’m convinced my “faith” is “true” (talk about an oxymoron!!), therefore I’m really helping you when I keep telling you to convert. Whatever happened to religion being a personal experience ?
Ghazali
A Hindu can be athiest in sense that he dont need to believe that there is a god up there who has created this world and who is watching us . “Believe in god ” is not required to be a Hindu . It is liberation that is more important . N in general various darshans in Hinduism differs in nature of atama( soul) and its relation with Brahman (god) .
Also, if Hinduism can be everything, then at the same time its nothing. Can you understand why someone could see it like that?
Yes many people who dont understand Hinduism may get confused about it . Like it is very common to hear from a Hindu that there is only one god while discussing adwaita(no-duality). Though actually it says that only god exist.
also you dont get anything by just becoming Hindu. If you belive in jesus you are no longer a sinner .But even after you become a Hindu nothing changes.So nobody has ever tried to define who is a Hindu but focused on how to get liberation.
Christian: Born Again type… Jesus said, “No man comes to God the Father, but by ME…I am the way, the truth and the life…ask Me and see if I won’t give you LIVING WATER…AND YOU WON’T THIRST AGAIN”. I’m SATISFIED…BUT THERE’S A DESERT OUT THERE….I exist in the Oasis of Jesus. You can’t evaluate what you don’t know exists…but I can, because I have met the Man, and He tells me more about me than I ever knew to ask or consider. I admire His work in me…and we do relate like family. This is better than anything earth offers…money, position, earthbound intellect, subterranean options….I found Jesus, and He was looking for me. WE met…all to my advantage…and He says He wanted to include me…if I would. I said, YES. He respected the godlikeness in me, and never forced anything on me….just invited me to a new dimension of myself, with untarnished options…going from glory to glory as by the Spirit of the Resurrected Jesus. Power to love exists, but in a different dimension of unconditional love…called salvation. Many are called…few are chosen…perhaps because few want to be chosen to new hope, honest love and genuine faith in more reality than they can currently imagine. God’s life is beyond us until we participate in more than we know…by faith of course. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things that are unseen.
Say that you met Jesus, in the world today, and He said He was God in a body…say that He said He entered time as a Baby, but previously existed and created all things that are in existence–material and spiritual and that He planned your life before He created the worlds….and then what if [consider] that He said after being killed by sinners, without tolerance for His position as God and Servant [this didn’t compute]He said He did this for you…greater love has no man than this that a man lay down his life to save another. Then what if He said I left and sent my Spirit, but, “I’ll be back myself…” or what if he reminded you, “Or you’ll be coming to be judged by Me– if you die unforgiven it will be TOO LATE–and I don’t want that to happen so pay attention NOW BECAUSE I’M HERE FOR YOU…I LOVE YOU MORE THAN I LOVE MY SELF…”…and say that you have a personal conversation with God and find out He is VERY alive and talks BACK and breathes LIFE INTO YOUR OWN SPIRIT and that He has being–and that you’re created in His very image–at least short term with choices for more. What if He has counted the seconds of your life and the hair on your head…and knows your heritage, thoughts and actions without you telling Him anything about yourself. What if this makes your hair stand on end, and you find God to be inexplicable, and your own reactions and small understanding of Him inexplicable also. What if He says He created you to be more than you are currently aware that you could be, and you’re wasting your potential and the time of your life. Say that He indicates you’re known totally, yet you are totally and unconditionally loved by God as is, right now, with Him knowing you have not even sufficiently respected your own purpose [not even adding the idiocy and stupidity of ignoring your Creator since you’re obviously intelligent to know you didn’t create you and can’t make more of you and you can’t create anyone in your own image — and what if He states that you could be forgiven for ignoring your badly nourished human spirit and that He cares, and wants to help now by giving you LIVING BREAD COMING FROM HEAVEN, AND SPRINGS OF LIVING WATER that you can’t bottle up and consume. IF YOU MET such A MAN THAT TOLD YOU MORE ABOUT YOURSELF THAN YOU KNEW SO FAR…WOULD YOU BELIEVE IN YOUR LACK OF KNOWLEDGE? Or would you continue to pretend you understood–and retain the little you could grip in your smallish, grasping palm?
Can the bowl say to the Potter…why have you made me thus? The bowl doesn’t have a heart or a mind or an education…just a purpose known to the Creator. Until the bowl becomes a living creature with will and ability for self-evaluation, the bowl is just inanimate, although somewhat useful by someone until broken into dust. But what if the Potter breaks the unawareish bowl, and makes room for more, even giving the bowl insight into itself to know it is now useless and fragmented? Would the bowl think it could become more and have hope to get itself remade, or even ask the Potter for a better design to hold more than it previously could hold…
Eggs are fragile creations, and a broken Humpty Dumpty hard to glue…but the Creator of all things takes an egg, and breaks it with superior life from the inside out…lets life form inside, and peck its way out and twin chicks set foot on earth with voices and purpose–with bodies and smallish minds that grasp little. Some fractured human ideas lead to more of life and more knowledge of the lack of knowledge, even in the talking heads found everywhere–that fragment into even less so easily.
I suppose tin men have a purpose, but they can’t change the world or themselves until they come alive and ARE GIVEN a heart beat from a SUPERIOR SOURCE— ER AH FROM THE CREATOR. ETERNAL LIFE is a gift that must be requested and then bestowed…. and before you have it you really have no way to evaluate it…
So here’s to life in Christ…stepping into transformation and having life by asking for more than you now know.
Reviewing these comments lets me know there is much lacking…thus deeper discussion is impossible.
People perish for lack of knowledge and look inside the same mind that keeps coming up with nothing…agnostic or aetheist…many are satisfied with nothing more, nothing more. Or…could there be more beyond the pale of this current discussion…?
There is more…God with us. Getting acquainted is possible for all…if not probable for all.
rae, we are HEATHENS. you are right, deeper discussion is indeed impossible.
Quite amazing that people are so sensitive to their religions. Thank God, I am an atheist :-). It’s so much more fun to sit back and enjoy the rif-raffs on fairy tales..LOL..
One thing about religion is that 99% are born into a religion and thus by the “luck of birth” are bestowed with some sort of beliefs. Now, once that happens, it automatically becomes some sort of a requirement to defend that religion. I find it quite funny, it’s all an act of retro-fitting. To cite an example, an Hindu, now that he is born Hindu, has to defend the caste system (“caste system was originally good”), a Muslim was to defend his faith as well (“Islam is a religion of peace and blah”), even though tons of evidence would point otherwise.
Yeah, isn’t it cool??.. LOL.. an atheist / agnostic has to defend nothing.. just sit back and watch the fun of seeing people fight/argue/kill each other in the name of their respective stories/fairy tales.. 🙂 Sorry if people think it is rude.. But hey we tried to instill some sense into the fairytale believing folks.. but what else we can do..
Yeah, isn’t it cool??.. LOL.. an atheist / agnostic has to defend nothing.. just sit back and watch the fun of seeing people fight/argue/kill each other in the name of their respective stories/fairy tales.. 🙂
Unless you happened to be killed in the friendly or unfriendly fire 😉 Atlantic Books is preparing a series of commentaries on what it alleges are the 100 most influential books of all time. You have the usual suspects: Plato’s Republic, Das Kapital, etc.
But John Gray, the British philospoher, thought the list a farce:
The return of religion as a pivotal factor in politics and war is one of the defining features of the age, and it is time Paine, Marx and other secular prophets were gently shelved in the stacks. The writings of these Enlightenment savants have stirred events for a very brief period in history, now clearly coming to an end. Against this background it is good to have Bruce Lawrence’s admirably balanced and informative volume on the Qur’an, and to look forward to Karen Armstrong’s volume on the Bible appearing in the Atlantic series next spring. A few great books of science have altered history, as have some works of clairvoyant speculation, such as Freud’s Interpretation of Dreams. But the books that have most formed the past, and which are sure also to shape the future, are the central texts of the world religions. Future volumes in the series must surely include Confucius’s Analects and the Tao Te Ching, the Bhagavadgita and the Buddha’s Fire Sermon – texts that have never ceased to shake the world and, as far as anyone can tell, always will. [Link]
Noela Noronha, Maybe folks here have language issues, but you really ought to give better thought instead to the faulty logic that you employ. Note for example your use of “I am sure” with “So that proves” in the above para. So whatever you’re personally sure of, is sufficient in and of itself to prove anything? I’ll cite one more example – you want to compare miracles across faiths. If for you miracles = “Correct” claims to God-truth, you’ll actually never find the TRUTH as you put it. No one can vouch for anyone else. All miracles you’ve described are not universally witnessed and so cannot be discussed objectively in order to arrive at the conclusion you’re seeking. And ironically those phenomena that are universal cease to be miracles in daily life – e.g. Sun, Moon…
No one is keeping any truths to themselves. You know already there is a thing called Hinduism and others etc. If you want to find it, go seek it, don’t judge stuff…I am sure YOU ARE SURE Jesus would like to be known! You can sing it to the stars all you want, just leave me out of it. In fact I wish there was a “Do not tell me about _____ and let me live in peace” list! And please, don’t give me this – we have a choice – crap. By your own admission, there will be a Judgement Day, so you better believe whatever. There are consequences for not believing. As for hell/heaven/reincarnation, don’t worry buddy, we each will find the truth when our time comes. No need to turn the current life into hell in the meanwhile.
OH SNAP! I was about to think I missed my chance to join this discussion–that’s what I get for leaving work early on Friday–until I saw that Ms. Rae had stopped by!
Um, what can one say to a really long essay devoid of proper paragraphs? It doesn’t really invite discussion. So Rae sweety, while I have no doubt that you love Jesus with all your heart, I have to ask, “Do you normally bombard people with univited one sided-discussions on other topics or just when it comes to Christ?” When you drop an atom bomb, even for all “the right reasons,” there are very rarely any survivors.
I am a Christian moreso by choice than birth. But God help us, Mahatma Gandhi’s words still ring true: I consider Western Christianity in its practical working a negation of ChristÂ’s Christianity.
SERVE still comes before SHARE in the dictionary. So should it in our lives.
Yo Razib – the bit about Bohras not taking food from Hindus doesn’t ring true with my experience. We had several Bohra friends growing up and I found them to be among the more open, liberal Muslims I knew…and there was lots of food back and forth. There’s lots of them in Bombay and even Karachi bohras have strong ties to Bombay (probably because the Syedna lives there). They came to our weddings and ate our food, and vice versa.
Yo Razib – the bit about Bohras not taking food from Hindus doesn’t ring true with my experience. We had several Bohra friends growing up and I found them to be among the more open, liberal Muslims I knew…and there was lots of food back and forth. There’s lots of them in Bombay and even Karachi bohras have strong ties to Bombay (probably because the Syedna lives there). They came to our weddings and ate our food, and vice versa.
1) there are different strands of bohra thought.
2) even ‘conservative’ religious observant bohras are quite ‘liberal’ in their attitude toward political issues
3) i heard this from aziz poonawalla. perhaps he isn’t typical?
4) back to #2, bohras are hard to pin down. see mullahs on the mainframe.
Please know that I am a Minnesotan and Ms. Anderson does not speak for me or anyone I know. Senator Chaudhary is a well-respected member of the Minnesota State Senate and has been re-elected numerous times. With his fellow DFLers (Democrats), he has worked to support working people, the poor, healtcare and education. Ms. Anderson’s party cannot claim that (unless you consider slashing funding a means of “support”). In my view, if anyone needs to find the true meaning of Jesus, it’s Ms. Anderson.
Well yeah, I’m aware that there are different strands of Bohra thought, seeing as the Syedna was a neighbour and I am very familiar with Asghar Ali Engineer’s work, on the other end of the spectrum. I was talking about the Bohras I knew and grew up with. Some of them made their daughters wear salwars and not talk to boys in school, but I hadn’t come across any that maintained food distinctions. Even those that really looked up to the Syedna.
Welcome Wonkette readers.
but I hadn’t come across any that maintained food distinctions
yeah, that doesn’t surprise me. i was simply referring to what should be done (or so aziz said).
Ms. Rae,
With due respect, your comment is totally insane.
-desitude (A born and raised Hindu American who intends to stay that way.)
I will now offer a sacrifice in my backyard temple to insure that you are not reborn as a tulip. See? We heathens can be compassionate too.
I gotta tell ya, adults with imaginary friends scare the heck outta me!
This is to thank post 161 for responding to my comment 160. I searched the web site that was recommended about Goa and I read about the Inquisition which happened 8 years after the death of St. Francis. So he was not responsible for the inquisition. I am aware of many bad things that have happened through the hands of Christians in many parts of the world over the ages. Greater the reason why we need Christ to save us from damnation. I am sorry and ashamed of these actions.
St. Peter cut the ear of one of the soldiers who came to arrest Christ and Jesus reprimanded him and stuck the ear back. He has asked us not to be violent, as violence begets more violence. Instead he asked us to love our enemies and pray for them. Are you going to find fault with this ? I think it is almost impossible and do so, we sin by doing injustices and bringing more pain into the world. It is OK if you do not like what his followers do. We are all not saints. Just for this reason, we need Him as our Saviour. He got us forgiveness of our sins by paying the price by shedding His blood. Do you know of anyone else who did that ?
Hindus and Buddhists believe they do not need anyone to save them .They can do it on their own attaining Nirvana or Moksha. This is great. I do not think I would ever succeed in becoming perfect. So I need Christ and the miracles He has worked in the lives of Saints. My article was mainly to get information of Supernatural Phenomenon in other religions not to criticize anyone. I know so little about other relgions, so there is nothing to compare with. If you enlighten me I will be grateful.
Attacking Christ and belittling Christainity will not help. That has gone on for 2000 years and Jesus knew that. He knew He would be rejected by His own people, by the Romans and by the world .It is discouraging for us who are only human and do not have His strength but we believe He will send help through His angels and saints.
what I am interested is in Supernatural Occurances in your respective religions. Proof of reincarnation to show the world it is true. Ofcourse I woud like innumerable chances to get to heaven. We poor Christians have only this one life to make it or blow it. That is why we believe He had to come on earth to tell us about the next world and how to get there. I AM THE LIFE, THE WAY AND THE TRUTH. THERE IS NO OTHER WAY tO THE FATHER. These are not my words but His. So you may contest it with Him. I am nobody or nothing without Him. I am willing to learn from all of you who are good .I know a lot of Non- Christias who are wonderful people and would love for them to know about Jesus and why He died such a cruel death. That would be a waste if it did not help every human being.
“I read about the Inquisition which happened 8 years after the death of St. Francis. So he was not responsible for the inquisition.”
if i’m not mistaken, francis was the one who first formally requested or suggested an inquisition in goa, or was one of the prime supporters of one. he just wasn’t alive to see the fruits of what was in his heart and head.
Noela, Great if Christianity works for you. Try to look past the religious structure of Christianity if you really wish to understand divinity professed by other religions. I can point you to a bunch of miracles in Hinduism, but that exercise is pointless. What is that going to tell you? More miracles = what? And how can you simply claim Francis had nothing to do with massacres and terrible oppression inflicted in Goa in the name of Christianity for 250 years?
I can also point you to reports of little kids with inexplicable knowledge of specific geographic locales, and languages and people and relationships, where everything seems to add up when you look at circumstances of death of one individual and timefrom of birth of another…all of which is explainable by the doctrine of reincarnation. Here’s one book on the subject. But like I said before, its still a matter of faith. If you’re looking for a clean equivalency between aspects that form part of Christianity to those in other faiths to compare, you’re likely to fail. Vice versa is also true.
to all the religious fanatics.
you lose. we have fossils. call us when you have something signed by god himself (jesus will do in a jam)
You are of indian origin and yet claim to be ignorant of any miracles in hinduism! How is that possible? Clearly you are lying.
Thats right. The utterly indefensible notion of an eternal Hell cannot be reconciled with belief in reincarnation. But you seem to be ignorant of the fact that its not just christians who believe in this patent nonsense. So do muslims. And long before christians and muslims, the ancient Egyptians and persian Zoroastrians also believed in eternal Hell and Heaven. Christianity borrowed this absurd idea from middle-eastern pagans. Ditto for its belief in a Messiah, Son of God and so on.
Jesus did not write the Bible. Didnt you know that? How do you know what he actually said? Nor did the writers of the New Testament “prove” anything. The muslims too claim they have “proof” that Islam is as true as 2+2=4. Obviously neither of you have a clue about what proof actually means. Those who know what it means, the scientists and philosophers for example, overwhelmingly reject christianity and islam. What does that tell you?
Christianity is an insult to human intelligence. Which means that you dont respect human intelligence, doesnt it? How can you justify believing that God requires the blood sacrifice of an innocent victim to appease his anger? Or that he will torture virtuous humans forever in Hell?
Primitive humans, including the Old Testament hebrews from whom Paul the ex-Pharisee got the idea, regularly sacrificed animals (and even humans) to their gods to atone for their sins. If you actually “respect human intelligence” as you claim, you would give up this absurd, primitive belief that an innocent scapegoat can “wash away your sins”.
What do you think Jesus meant when he said; “Seek and you shall find….the Kingdom of God (that)is within you”?? What hindus call Moksha and the buddhists call Nirvana is finding this immanent, eternal truth. The seeking is the sadhana and the finding is the Nirvana.
Those are words put in his mouth by the fallible, human writers of the New Testament. It contradicts the rest of the teachings of Jesus, such as of God being immanent within us all. Which should tell you that he couldnt have made such a claim.
k
Millions have died far crueler deaths. Including many saintly people. Mansur Hallaj, a sufi martyr, was tortured and beheaded in Baghdad over a millenium ago by muslims for also claiming he was God.
In your totally unfair and unjust religion, you had the immense advantage of being born in a christian family. The poor ones are those born in heathen families who your “loving God” will torture forever in Hell, regardless of how virtuous they may have been. And this actually makes sense to you! Yet you have the gall to claim that you “respect human intelligence”….
A God that requires blood sacrifices, who will torture virtuous men forever, cannot possible be the true God. Pauline Christianity completely disregards the life and message of Jesus and focuses only on his death. It has made a bloody scapegoat out of the Teacher. This is not just my opinion, but also the opinion of well-known “christians” such as Albert Schweitzer, Soren Kierkegaard etc. Once you reject Paul’s twist and go back to the teachings of Jesus you will find that the you are on the same path as buddhists and hindu advaitins.
I can’t even read Rae Andersen’s comment. That shit just hurts my eyes, man. It doesn’t even make sense. Some random gibberish about bowls and potters and eggs. WTF?
Instead, I turn to: noela nawrongya.
Aha, so you really are a Hindu! See, Christians don’t really think of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost as three separate entities. The Holy Ghost is the “manifestation of Christ’s love,” and the Father is God. What you said is pretty good Hindu doctrine, though.
I got a papercut this morning while sealing my expenses in an envelope. And I’ve decided it’s…FOR ALL MANKIND. So there you go.
Let’s go with, they’re BOTH wrong. That one fits reality pretty well, actually.
Play nice, please or I’ll pull this car over RIGHT NOW. Threads close (and die) when the contention-slinging gets too nasty. Only you can prevent dead threads. Only you.
Can I get a halleleujah? Target the idiot, not the religion of the idiot!
In response to #7 and #169, the version of that Gandhi quote I heard was “I like your Christ, but I do not like your Christians; because your Christians, they are so unlike your Christ.”
I agree with most of the comments made by some of you. Christianity and especially Catholicism is hard to understand or believe. St. Paul himself said, it was foolishness to the world. The world will jeer and laugh and people will carry on trusting their own reason. It is hard to believe in a Trinity. The closest I could get to understand this mystery was like Water is ONE and we experience it in three forms – solid, liquid and gas which have very different qualities God must be having three forms.
It is also hard to accept that a small piece of bread becomes the body of Christ at Holy mass. I am sure you will say it is rediculous. They said so, in Christ’s time itself and He did not call them back to reassure them. It was Peter who accepted ,as he said, ” To whom shall we go, Lord”. So it goes on and on. It is as one of you has said, “Christianity is an insult to human intelligence “. I’ll go with that. By the way, because of Mass they do not offer the blood of animals any more. So Jesus satisfied that sacrifice that the Jews used to make saving a lot of animals. I am sure the Hindu vegetarian would approve of that.
It is exactly for this reason that I asked for supernatural proof which the Catholics have in plenty. Apparitions, bilocation, levitation, incorrupt bodies of saints, miraculous cures, etc. Jesus performed miracles and so did his apostles. Inspite of this 10 of them were martyred and so have many after them. Why this hatred ?
Talking about apparitions, we had one of Mary appearing to a boy taking milk for sale in Vailankanni in Tamilnadu. I think the boy was Hindu, I am not very sure. It is a famous place of pilgrimage in India. In the Americas Mary appeared in Gualadalupe Mexico over 400 years ago and 3000 Indians ( American) got converted to Catholicism.
So let me conclude that without Supernatural help we cannot accept Christianity. We pray for faith, hope and charity on a daily basis. Mother Teresa was a true Christian and she did not try to convert anyone. She just lived life like Christ wanted us to. I cannot do what she did. God gave me a computer and the abilty to use the internet and plenty of time at my disposal. I felt sorry for Rae Hart who ventured out to convert Chaudary. I do not expect to convert anybody by this debate. That has to come from Jesus Himself. He picks and chooses the ones he wants. Perhaps I have been chosen to get to those of you who have the patience to read what I write. I’ll be satisfied if it just makes you curious to know more about Christ and what he wants of us for salvation.
I thank all those who read and respond truthfully. I have read about reincarnation and the origin of Hinduism, the Vedas and Upanishads. I thought they were much older but I found these too go back to about the time of Abraham and after. There is nothing before.
not only that, there are other interpretations for those words, even if you accept that jesus said it. for example, Paramahamsa Yogananda says –“Theologians have misinterpreted Christ’s words in such passages as, ‘I am the way the truth and the life no man cometh unto the Father but by me.’ Jesus meant, never that He was the sole son of God, but that no man can attain to the unqualified Absolute, the transcendent Father beyond creation, until he has first manifested the ‘Son’ or activated Christ Consciousness within creation. Jesus, who had achieved entire oneness with that Christ Consciousness, identified himself with it in as much as his own ego had long since been dissolved.” ( Autobiography of a Yogi , p. 198)
In simpler words, “i am the way” = reaching the state which Jesus had reached, an individual becomes “a Jesus”, hence, that is the way to God. This is the close to lots of eastern religions’ concept of nirvana etc.
Noella:
Hinduism is overloaded with Babas who perform (as far as their devotees are concerned) supernatural events. If you compare Puranic supernaturalism to Biblical supernaturalism. The Puranic would be like “S’all you got, yo? Check it!” Miracles tend to confirm what people believe already. There was a massive, international, Ganesha milk miracle a few years ago which Shashi Tharoor wrote about here. The ‘rationalists’ debunked it; for the believer, the proof was in the milk.
Seeker:
I can also point you to reports of little kids with inexplicable knowledge of specific geographic locales, and languages and people and relationships, where everything seems to add up when you look at circumstances of death of one individual and timefrom of birth of another…all of which is explainable by the doctrine of reincarnation.
I would argue that in ‘Absolutistic’ Hinduism, reincarnation is inessential. If all is One, realized, as the Upanishads say, in a flash of insight; if our sense of individuality is really a phantom self, then what exactly reincarnates? Sankara talks of the jiva bonded to the psycho-physical apparatus, which is a concession, imo, to orthodoxy. But even with Sankara, reincarnation is in the realm of Maya, and no firm and fast ontological chains attach to it.
For the average Hindu, reincarnation is tied to the moral order, and to questions of what happens hereafter, and is a source of comfort because all jivas ultimately attain moksha, there is no eternal Hell, There are modern Advaita gurus who reject it (Nisargadatta Maharaj) or deemphasize it (Ramana Maharshi). Also, there is no mention of rebirth in the RG Veda (though some have argued that certain hymns point in that direction). The Vedics travelled on to other realms, where one met one’s family again, etc.
Desitude, But even ‘absolutistic’ hinduism is just one stream amongst many that flow in Hinduism. At any rate, not arguing with you about it. Since Noela asked, I was providing documented examples suggesting it, and also making the point that even so, its a belief system and hence can’t be simply compared to other beliefs rationally, as Noela indicated he wished to do.
Hindus and Buddhists are assured of reincarnation and Christians are assured of Heaven/Hell. The only way these two can be reconciled is that when the former die, they will come back as Christians/Jews/Muslims and then they will finally go to heaven or hell. This is my thinking. I have not seen it anywhere. So there is no authority behind this thought. It should satisfy all of us.
As for Jesus and Heaven, he spoke often of the Kingdom of God. About mansions prepared for those who are to be with Him, so beautiful the eye has not seen and it was beyond human imagination. He also spoke of the unquenchable fire prepared for those who did not accept Him. The prodigal son is admitted to his father’s house once he was forgiven when he came back. Jesus spoke of His Kingdom often. Not once did He mention that we would come back to another life in this world. He spoke of being reborn but that was in spirit, not that we would take birth again.
He said, he would come back at the end of time to judge the whole world. He forgave sinners, prostitutes, tax collectors etc. In fact, he said he came for sinners, saying the sick needed a physician. He told a story of people who were invited to a wedding feast, but those invited refused to come. Then he invited the poor and all in the street .They were expected to wear special clothes given by the host but one man arrived without these special clothes and he was bound hand and foot and ejected into the eternal fire ( which we call hell).
So Jesus surely mentioned both Heaven and Hell .He did not say who was going to each place. In fact, we know some of whom made it to heaven and we really do not know who went to hell. There is a hope that even very bad people might have asked for forgiveness at the last moment of their lives and so went to heaven.
When Mary appeared in Fatima, Portugal in 1917 she taught those kids a prayer ” Oh my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell, take all souls to paradise especially those who are to die this day.” We say this often on behalf of all humanity. So you are in our prayers and we believe Jesus will save good souls who for no fault of theirs are not his followers. But we Christians who know about Him have no excuse and so we have to follow in his footsteps and teach all of mankind about what he told us in the gospels.
So please do not take it out on Rae Hart Anderson. She is doing what Jesus expects of her. I am sure she meant to congratulate Mr. Chaudary. No doubt she would be disappointed over her defeat but this need not be taken as the reason for her sending that email to him. Take it in the best sense that she wished him well with final goal of getting to heaven in mind. Why does Christianity bug some of you ? All it teaches is there is a heaven and Jesus helps you to get there. The devil is powerful and deceives people by lying to us and he came to defeat the devil. Heaven was closed to all human beings before the death of Christ.
I cannot arugue with people who think Christ lied and that people put words into His mouth. They are welcome to their way of thinking. I am interested in those who would take a little more trouble to learn what he taught for our benefit.
I am interested in those who would take a little more trouble to learn what he taught for our benefit.
It would help if Rae Anderson had a similar viewpoint, and restricted her attentions to those who would take “a little more trouble”. Satveer clearly does not want to take more trouble, and FYI neither do most non-christians you meet.
Regarding your thanks to my comment 161, you’re welcome. It was interesting to see how you said St. Francis was “clearly” not responsible for the inquisition and its effects, when infact (as the article says) he was the one who asked that it be instituted. What positive motive could you possibly ascribe to his request ? And let us assume that his body is indeed “still fresh” as you said in an earlier comment, and that this is a miracle, and a super-natural sign confirming the [resemce christian god – what does this then tell you about your god, and the kind of people he likes ?
There is nothing wrong with the christian faith, well, atleast in comparison to other faiths (all pale before atheism, naturally). But, the arrogance that certain followers seem to exude – I believe in the actual god, you don’t, i’m really here to help you clear your head of all the silly BS that you call your religion so that you don’t go to hell and can join me in heaven – is what’s annoying. I associate this arrogance not with Christianity itself, but rather the society that many christians inhabit.
Hi Noela,
In response to:
“Hindus and Buddhists are assured of reincarnation and Christians are assured of Heaven/Hell.”
A philosophy within Hinduism, known as Dvaita philosophy, founded by Madhva, says that not ALL Hindus re-incarnate. Indeed, it classifies the souls into three types, the lowest of which never attains moksha, and goes into eternal hell. For more information, please refer to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madhvacharya#Three_Classes_of_Souls_and_Eternal_Damnation
Thank you Prassana for giving me a real name, at least I feel you are a real person. Those funny names some people give makes me feel they are unwilling to even to identify themselves. It becomes impossible to remember them too. I am looking into the web site you have given me. I know bits and pieces of the Ramayana and Mahabharata as Ilearnt Hindi in school and we had some lessons in that. I hope this exchange of information will help us find what is true in all this confusing stuff passed down to us. Much of it is difficult to believe but I would say that of the Bible too. I do not think much of the Old Testament can be taken literally. So let us leave those texts as good reading material .No one can prove what is true and what is not.
But after Christ there is recorded history, real people and real incidents and even in today’s modern world there are miraculous things happening and I am keen to learn what is happening in other religions as well. Reference Mary’s apparitions in Lourdes, France 1858; Fatima, Portugal 1917. One of those visionaries died in 2005. At present there are apparitions in Medjugore, Yugoslavia. There are many conversions to Cathoicism because of these apparitions and the miracles that take place in these places. I do not know of web sites. I am sure there are some but I do not know of any.
Thank you once again for your reply.
Since receiving responses to my requests, I have read a few of the recommended sites. Re. St Francis (addressed to Sequia Mutiny), if he were so bad to Hindus of Goa as to instigate the inquisition, why would he be blessed with the incorruptibility of his body? We believe God did this for our sakes. Perhaps it is to convince Catholics of the truth of our faith and to convince the unconvinced Hindus that what he did was pleasing to God. It is OK if you disagree with me but if I can add to faith in the supernatural is some small way,I will be very happy about inadvertantly getting involved in this controversy. I have a family to convince as they tend to be agnostic because of modern secular attitudes. I am really hoping to get through to them someday. I am 74 and grandmother and worry about my young grandsons who have no faith in the supernatural- Catholic or otherwise.
I read about Brahman and understood he/she/it is the eqivalent of Our God who is a Spirit- with no form, no body and we are forbidden by the first Commandment to give God a form. Then you have some sort of a Trinity – Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva not exactly God the father, the son Jesus and the Holy Spirit of Christianity. Then come all the devas and devis and these to me felt the equivalent of angels. We do not worship angels but we do ask for their help and I have experienced their help in my life. Not miracles as such but I have received the help I needed at the time. Many people experience this.
Then you do have demons ( bad spirits). Here there seems no difference. So that proves there must be hell from where they come or may be they are on earth in some horrible form taking possession of some human beings. Take your pick.
So there are commonalities but all that does not explain the truth about reincarnation. Mary ( the Mother of Jesus) showed a vision of hell to those three children in Fatima (1917)and told them many people go there and that our prayers could help these poor souls. So we pray for everyone without exception, no matter what faith you belong to. So if you are not reincarnated, I hope our prayers will help to keep people out of hell.
I read about Ganesha and the disappearing milk. Well I do not know what to make of it .If no one speaks or says anything of the truth about Ganesha and the stories relating to him . Is he some sort of saviour who will help you get out of the cycle of births and deaths? He did not die when his head was cut off, so you believe he became a god ( I guess in my terminology a saint). May be.
I do not know if this is going anywhere but it is interesting for me and May God help us all get to the truth. God bless all of us and bring us peace on earth and heaven at the end. We in the USA have a lot to thank God for. I am sure we all did so in a special way yesterday Thanksgiving Day.
well if st francis was fresh, so was mao ze dong and lenin and some baby in a church in france in 1900s if i remember right. the thing is that wax arsenic etc have been used to preserve bodies. can u certify that his body is naturally preserver or do u know for certain that a a doctor or expert embalmer did not work on him abt hindu mythology etc u r far too ignorant and forget u i am too as it is far too complex and multi layered that u think. just bcause texts exhist one cannot say that they have not changed over time to convenience someone or have been interpreted or translated with the same intent of their makers
Noela dear, I can see how you’re “trying” to understand and discuss issues about relegion and god, but at the same time, it’s clear that you strongly believe and have ignorant prejudices and misconceptions about not just other relegions but christianity itself. The apparitions, everything in the bible etc. you consider all of this to be un questionably true. Why does one have to believe in Jesus in order to go to “heaven”? what is Gods intention behind this strict request? Isn’t it possible that people can be good and moral without relegion? So you’re telling me that someone who’s been extremely kind and good throughout their life, will go to hell if they do not believe that Jesus was the son of god? Why would God want to do that? It’s not Gods (I guess if there is one) word, but people who decided to make it his.
I was just watching the “dragon triangle in the Pacific Ocean” where many ships and planes have disappeared for no good reason. The Japanese put it down to some sort of a dragon swallowing ships and planes. So I agree man cannot always know the reason for many strange occurances. Earlier I have seen some programs on the Bermuda Triangle.
netsuffering. I am certainly very ignorant of other religions besides my own but I am trying to find out from those of you who are knowledgible some authentic information. What I find in our dialogue is some of you just put down Jesus and Christianity. I see no good reason for that. Jesus was not a criminal, for us to be ashamed of him and although he was put to a death meant for criminals. In the modern world, even some Christians do not want to believe in Him. It is Christmas time now. How much of Jesus is shown to people ? It is Santa, Rudolph, Snowman etc. It appears for some reason people do not want to accept Christ.
He was rejected 2000 years ago right from birth to death. It took 300 or more years, for Constantine the Roman Emperor to accept Him and stop persecuting Christians.It is only after a terrible 325 years of persecution that Christianity took on in Europe and the Mediterranean Countries ( the Roman World ). Much of that area was taken over by Islam after 625 A.D. most probably by the sword.
So I know Jesus will not be accepted by most people in the world. His life was full of suffering and what he asked of us was to carry our cross and follow him. This is what those early Christians did and true Christians continue to do to this day. Very few people are willing to make the sacrifices needed. I am sure Jesus knows that. So for ordinary folk like most of us His mercy and forgiveness is our only way to heaven.
As for Hinduism, Buddhism and other Eastern religions, I am sure there is a lot to learn from each of them. If they were good enough for humanity to save ourselves and go to God there was no need for Christ to come down to earth and preach a religion. I wonder why he came, saying he had to die a terrible death. He could have a had a quick death under Herod as a a baby. So He had reason to live for 33 years, suffer and die, AND THEN RISE FROM THE TOMB ON THE THIRD DAY.
We would reincarante over and over again until we became “perfect” and reached God. I wish believers in Reincarantion all the best and hope they will someday find themselves in a heaven where there is no Jesus.
I am glad I have the advantge of knowing about Saints who followed in Christ’s steps showing the world that their lives were not in vain. They were all humble to know that we are all sinners, need forgiveness from Jesus and depend on Him and Him alone to reach that beautiful place called heaven.
It would be wonderful to believe that all of us are right no matter what we believe. Some suffer so much, some are greedy and take more than their share of earth’s bounty, starve and exploit the poor and lower classes of society . When is all this to change ? By now, I am sure we would have gone through enough lifetimes to see some visible changes of perfection and goodness.
As for St. Francis, he is only one of many incorrupt saints. The one I am most impressed with is St Bernadette of Lourdes, France. The Virgin Mary appeared to her 18 times in 1858, when she was only 14 . Thousands of people saw her in ectasy on each occasion. The Lourdes water have cured many people miraculously. Bernadette died of tuberculosis at age 35, in 1879. Her body was interred three times and on each occasion was found fresh and incorrupt. I have a picture of her taken in 1995. No embalming was ever done. I am not here to convince anyone of my faith. You will believe only if you wish to. That is a choice we all have and perhaps our salvation depends on that choice. God/Jesus has given me this opportunity to let you know of His wonderworks through his followers.
Paying attention, Satveer?