Dalit activist Chandrabhan Prasad just celebrated the 206th birthday of Lord Macaulay, with a party in New Delhi [via Shashwati]. Why celebrate the face of English imperialism? Because for some groups domination by a foreign overlord was better than domestic oppression. 
…. Prasad … hails Macaulay as the Father of Indian Modernity, for it was after the introduction of his English system of education in 1854, that Dalits got the right to education, he says. [Link]Bhan has three reasons for revering Macaulay – his insistence to teach the “natives” English broke the stranglehold of Sanskrit, Persian and Arabic teaching, a privilege of only the elite castes and, he argued,for the European kind of modern education, with focus on modern sciences. “Imagine, if we had only followed indigenous study,” said Bhan, “we would be like Afghanistan or Nepal today.”… [Link]
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p>These activists go further than celebrating Macaulay’s role in the past, however, and call for English to be central to Dalit education in the future. They unveilled a portrait of “English, the Dalit Goddess”:
Dalit poet Parak sang a couplet to the portrait – a refashioned Statue of Liberty, wearing a hippie hat, holding a massive pink pen, standing on a computer, with a blazing map of India in the background – Oh, Devi Ma/ Please Let us Learn English/ Even the dogs understand English, to cheers and laughter, …Bhan … declared … “Hereafter, the first sounds all newborn Dalit and Adivasi babies will hear from their parents is – abcd. Immediately after birth, parents or a nearest relative will walk up to the child and whisper in the ear – abcd,’… [Link]
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p>Is English a tool of liberation? Are indigenous Indian languages oppressive?
The remedy … is to … become English speaking at the earliest. Goddess English is all about emancipation. Goddess English is a mass movement against the Caste Order, against linguistic evils such as Hindi, Marathi, Tamil, Telgu and Bangla for instance. Indian languages as more about prejudices, discrimination and hatred and less about expressions and communications. [Link]
Or is this just a PR stunt, to stick a finger in the eye of the local intelligencia? Is the best path for Dalit advancement to reject Indian languages in favor of English? Lastly, should they learn International English or Desi Hinglish?
ennis: Do you agree or disagree that before this point, it was impossible for Dalits to become literate?
I don’t know. Many contrary examples abound, including the famous Ramayana itself. You simply need to look at numerous surviving religious songs/music (still sung) composed by “low caste” saints in Maharastra and Karnataka to know that there were literate dalits. Was access to religious schools restricted. Yes.
However, I’m not certain whether sufficient study has been done on the correlation between literacy and class (not caste) in pre-British times. I would be interested in pointers.
Out of curiosity – how many of us know our castes? I didn’t know mine at all – I had to ask what our caste was back when our family was Hindu, and it’s something I refuse to tell others.
Is this something that is more present in the lives of others?
Instead of learning English I think the Dalits should start changing their last names to English surnames, which would save them from alot of prejudice! A quicker way to assimilate them in society on equal footing, is to make a couple of them Bollywood super stars (it aint hard and you dont need english!), then it would be trendy then to have them work for you or be associated with them. Success!
Those advocating the African-American model would like to see more Dalits in entertainment and promote Dalit arts, like the “Pariah” drum number found in Tamil films. There are Dalits here and there in entertainment, like Ilayahrajah, but I don’t think there is a single one in Bollywood. There is one notable Dalit gangster: Chota Rajan.
I agree with Kritic.
I also agree with those folks that mentioned that English is the license to climb up the economic ladder. While I don’t think English is the only factor (I’m sure Dr. Ambedkar’s teachings also weigh in heavily), it is important to recognize the value of creating a space from where people from different castes have the capacity to move beyond preconcieved notions of “embracing their culture”.
Kush–GREAT job as Arjun Singh vald Bhim Singh vald Dhashrat Singh.
Quizman:
Why does that show literacy? Illiterates could have learned scriptures by rote without ever learning to read, and they could have composed hymns without ever learning to write.
Easy for you to say, if you are in the US, the UK etc. What if you are an upper caste man still living in India, and perhaps not doing all that well? Would you like to “beg for forgiveness”? The Dalits will want their pound of flesh. They might ask for very high levels of reservation. Would you be comfortable with that?
You’re presupposing that all the oppression was done by the high castes to the low castes. There is no such thing as a pan-Dalit identity. There is a great deal of strife, rivalry and oppression in between the dalit jatis and even from the lower to the higher castes. Most of the cases of oppression you hear about are not cases of brahmin oppression.
ennis :Why does that show literacy? Illiterates could have learned scriptures by rote without ever learning to read, and they could have composed hymns without ever learning to write.
The Bhakti songs that I’m alluding to are way too metaphysical to have that sort of explanation. Plus, their ability to use “educated” metaphors and use complex Sanksrit grammar etc leaves out the method that you suggested.
There goes brown unity, macacas!
Dalits composed these works not just learned them by rote. In any case, anyone who has the luxury to follow literary pursuits cannot be oppressed.
Ennis – No need to look up your (Hindu) ancestor’s caste.
While it may not be as structured as in Hinduism, this disease has infected, Sikhs, Muslims and Christians in India, as well.
I have heard many a time, some of my sikh friends, who happen to be Jat, talk of the “chamars”, “labhana”, “ramgarhia”, etc, in not too polite terms.
Malaysia, Singapore, Hong Kong, West Indies etc regressed to feudalism? Where the heck did you learn that?
The fundamental question you need to be asking is: why is the Indian subcontinent so miserably impoverished and backward compared to the other non-white countries ruled by Britain?
Dont be silly quizman. It never occurred to hindus that burning widows alive was a horrendous crime until some British missionaries began pressing the East India Company to ban it. Some british educated indians like Ram Mohan Roy also joined the campaign, and they were staunchly opposed by orthodox brahmins. Note that the westernized Ram Mohan Roy rejected the polytheism and idol worship of his ancestors also.
Similarly, it never occurred to hindus that sacrificing little children to a goddess was an abominable practice.
Have the decency and intellectual honesty to give credit where its due.
I have heard many a time, some of my sikh friends, who happen to be Jat, talk of the “chamars”, “labhana”, “ramgarhia”, etc, in not too polite terms.
Dalit Sikhs known as Mazabhis suffer widespread persecution.
Why is this news? People always treat the enemy of their enemy as their friend. Many in India considered the Nazis heroes for attacking the British oppressors. Many Dalits consider the British heroes for attacking the Hindu oppressors. I’m sure some Dalits have oppressed others, maybe in the form of spousal abuse, or child abuse, or whatever, and the oppressed will likely ally with someone the Dalits hate.
I do congratulate the author of the book for taking advantage of readers’ voyeuristic needs to read about random persons XYZ loving you just for being you (in this case, English, which serves the author well since one can reap rewards from gaining a mob of English readers). Oh, don’t sound so startled — why do you come to sepiamutiny, to read about how people think we suck or about how people think we’re smart and talented?
The only problem I have with revering or hating an individual is that it likely leads to blindly agreeing or disagreeing with their ideas. That is dangerous, as is blindly revering or hating an individual just because you agree or disagree with their ideas. Human history is plagued with this transitivity problem: X agrees with Y on A, so X adopts Y’s position on B. Just because Dalits agree with the English on X, it shouldn’t follow that Dalits must revere the English, and it certainly shouldn’t follow that Dalits must align with other English positions as a result.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halo_effect
Macacaroach – Since you mention intellectual honesty, can you produce evidence that sacrificing little children, or any humans, was a custom in India. A stray case here and there won’t do since by that standard you can even claim that Americans are cannibals.
Did somebody mention cannibals? 🙂
Ennis, I am pretty sure most of us 2nd gens know what our caste is, at least in name. Some of the less-knowledgable among us may not be able to put that label into a context however…they may know they are ‘X’, without knowing much about ‘X’. Not CARING about it (which is cool too) is a different matter.
I need time to articulate my thoughts about the language issue vis a vis dalits.
I would really like to know if the caste system in still prevalent in India? I donÂ’t know anyone in India but I have been to India, are all the beggars thus lower caste/untouchables/dalits? I will never forget that when I was in Bangalore some guy begged to clean my friends shoes for a few rupees, he refused to just take the money, while chatting with him and he did speak very good English, he informed us that he has a Bachelor is Commerce but couldnÂ’t find a job and was thus reduced to performing menial tasks. It was an astounding lesson for me to learn, cos where I was raised education meant power. But the core of the matter, is it really a problem of language? Or is it just another excuse to explain the abject poverty of a beautiful country and a government that lacks the skills to make a change.
The fundamental question to ask is: why is India so different from all the other non-white countries ruled by Britain?
Niall Ferguson, an apologist for Empire, states that the longstanding civilizations did not benefit greatly from colonialism, namely India and China, whereas others did. Eg. Zanzibar’s GDP was 1/7 of Britain’s at the time of their departure. While it is clear that Indian GDP fell dramatically during British Rule, that they prevented Indians from making modernizing investments, and strangled growth in other ways, unfortunately, India’s share of world output fell even further after they left. It had been a really sad story for a long time.
By the way Ennis, unless you simply use ‘Singh’ as your last name, anyone in the know (which is probably most people in India) can figure out what caste you are.
Ennis Singh Mutinywale 😉
But more seriously, neither side of my family used their old caste surnames, so I didn’t know what they were. And when asked, I still play ignorant 😉
I donÂ’t know anyone in India but I have been to India, are all the beggars thus lower caste/untouchables/dalits?
Absolutely not, though a disproportionate number may be. And also, Dalits is an umbrella term for a wide variety of castes. The Mahars in Maharastra (Ambedkar’s caste) arguably have a better SES/literacy profile than the dominant Marathas.
You never heard of Kali? Amazing. If the practice was not prevalent in large parts of India, primarily Bengal, why on earth would the British have felt the need to ban it? Anyway, educate yourself:
http://philtar.ucsm.ac.uk/encyclopedia/hindu/devot/kali.html
“There is a long tradition of human sacrifice to the Goddess in different parts of India, and there is evidence that this was practised regularly in some of the main Shakta temples of Bengal until the early nineteenth century when it was banned by the British. Occasional child sacrifices are still reported today. The Thugs strangled and robbed travellers in the name of Kali until the cult was eradicated by the British.”
Another point: The dominant castes change all the time. The “Dravidianist” movement, though it had much lofty egalitarian rhetoric, displaced Brahmins with other dominant castes: Pillais, Mudaliars, Chettiars, etc. They shunned the Dalits. Then the numerically dominant so-called lower lower castes in TN, like the Vaniyars, saw through the nonsense, and started taking power away from the non-brahmin uppers. The new guys shun the Dalits too.
Did someone mention Thugs? 🙂
The sympathies and programs need to be directed to the poor in India, not specifically the Dalits. Since most of the rural Dalits are poor anyway, they will be included automatically. But a caste driven initiative in India? Not a good idea. As long as the concept of caste is sanctified by social planners, even for worthy causes, caste will remain a self-perpetuating cancer. Read the matrimonials in Indian newspapers, published in the US, in the 21st century, and read by a community considered to be among the best educated – “inviting correspondence from fair, highly qualified BRAHMIN girls for our ivy league educated MD son. Handsome, dutiful, no bad habits.” Caste is still a barrier to integration, even among the supposedly enlightened and affluent Indian diaspora. Can you imagine what it is like in India?
The quota system for “scheduled castes,” which was instituted right after independence, served its purpose in an era when the Dalits were indeed the untouchables, treated more like lepers rather than the disadvantaged. The situation was similar to the separate-water-fountain treatment of African Americans in the US. A Dr. Ambedkar and caste specific programs were needed to not just uplift the Dalits but admit them into the human race. In India today, Dalits are definitely not a sub-human caste. They are exploited and mistreated because all poor people in all societies are. India can help its poor without bringing the dreaded caste system into the picture. Incidentally, Dalit in Hindi means downtrodden, which is not a caste.
China was never colonized by the British. Only a tiny fraction of it was, and that part has done extremely well.
Cant blame the British for that can you?
So the question is: whats holding India back? Culture, religion, low IQ, or what? It cant be democracy since it has worked so well in many other places.
powder keg: opened
IÂ’m trying to educate myself. You link doesnÂ’t seem to work. And the quote is laughable. If it is about Shakta practices, this is a tantric sect and their practices have always been esoteric and highly secret. So it couldnÂ’t have been widely practiced. The thugs were a fierce tribe who gave the Brits a run for their money so you will find all kinds of assertions against them. Do you seriously believe that Indians were so lacking in basic human decency that they had to wait for the Brits to come along show them the way? All legislation in India is via the Brits not just anti-sati legislation. Surely this doesn’t mean that Indians were moral cretins who didn’t come to realize that burning people was wrong.
Macacaroach said:
Show some gratitude fella. Or do you really think the British finally ending the centuries old hindu customs of widow-burning, human sacrifice, crushing suicide under the Juggernaut etc were strictly hypocritical rationalizing bullshit?
No, I do not think that. On the other hand, it’s not like the British established the Raj to prevent those things. Those were only a fortunate side-effect of the British attempt to make a hell of a lot of money.
Celeritas Subpontus
“So the question is: whats holding India back? Culture, religion, low IQ, or what? It cant be democracy since it has worked so well in many other places.”
Flawed Economic and Social policies, which thankfuly, are being changed, albeit too slowly, in my opinion.
“So the question is: whats holding India back?”
Who’s talking about anything holding India back? 8.5% annual GDP growth, a huge demographic tailwind that makes the Baby Boom look like a statistical blip, truly a future economic giant now just waking up. When the economy booms, social reforms eventually follow.
As this first-gener Indian likes to tell his second-gener “American” daughter,”You better study hard in school or else someday you will be slaving for the Indians.”
So should the great land of the brown go, dare I say it……………communist?
China was never colonized by the British. Only a tiny fraction of it was, and that part has done extremely well.
But the British had a fierce Opium trade running in China which it used to finance its Indian defecits; we know what happened when they tried to stop it. And then there is the small matter of Japan. China had a worse profile than India in 47, and like India, continued to tailspin thereafter. Colonialism was not good for it.
That’s pretty surprising. I went to a once elite, now declining engg college, where the first question you are asked is what’s your caste. That determines who gets to rag who. The shocking thing is not that such places exist, but that a non insignificant number had no clue what their caste is. No they are not some elite urban class.
Quizman said:
Actually, liberalism is not a British invention and neither was it new to India. … Just as India had adopted/created technology in other spheres, India would’ve have, left to its own devices, adopted railways, and the benefits of industrialization.
Actually, I would argue that the modern definition of political freedom is mostly an Anglo-American invention. There were important influences from other sources, particularly France, but c’mon, it’s not like the British marched in, overthrew a bunch of Indian copies of Athens and Venice, and set up shop.
As for industrialization, you’re probably correct. Everyone adopts industrialization eventually. Political freedom, not so much.
Celeritas Subpontus
Oh yes we can and should. When the British left India in 1947, the literacy rate was an incredibly low 11%! I am not saying that independent India didn’t contribute to her own economic woes, but to absolve the British of any blame is absolute nonsense. Check out the misdeeds of the British that would cripple India for decades to come: http://members.tripod.com/%7EINDIA_RESOURCE/colonial.html.
What “basic human decency” do you find in the practices of untouchability, widow-burning and shunning, child sacrifice, temple prostitution etc that have plagued India for thousands of years?
Why did it take the British to pass laws against sati and human sacrifice? Dont hindus have their own law books, such as the famous Manu Smriti?
Macacaroach –
What about many countries South East Asia, many countries of Africa, West Indies. Are they really better off than India? Where the heck did you learn that? Putting caste as the fundamental reason for poverty of the so called lower casts is taking the easy route.
You are taking couple practices in one part of India (even Sati is largely north Indian practice) and justifying the British rule would be nearly same as asking blacks to show gratitude to whites for enslaving them and for taking them out of poverty ridden and cannibalistic Africa.
If you really believe that the effect of British on India is a net positive you need to take the blinders off your eyes and need to look at the overall picture of India and not just parts. The 400 years or so that British had control over India are the years where the whole world made huge progress. What makes you think India wouldn’t have made similar progress along with the rest of the world?
You should read this book
Relatively to what? Show me another country as big and diverse as India and as much historical baggage as India progressing so fast? Don’t tell me it is China, that opens another can worms.
Looking for one reason either it be caste or religion or British occupation is intellectual laziness.
I might be oversimplifying here. Arranged marriages = same caste marriages = guaranteed continuity of the caste system. “Love” marriages (they are still called that in India) = mixed marriages = gradual dissolution of castes. It’s not wishful thinking. Ask Indians in Trinidad and Guyana what their caste is. Indians in those countries haven’t practiced arranged marriages in over 50 years, and that has not only obliterated the caste system, which was naturally very strong among the early Indian immigrants, but also the religious barriers. Hindus and Muslims inter-marry quite freely in Trinidad and Guyana, and merrily follow their respective religious rituals. It is a wonderful sight. The racial divide among the Indians and blacks in those countries is a whole different story.
Macacaroach –
The ills you have listed are indefensible, but to imply that the British were more evolved is also indefensible. To wit – COLONIZING BY FORCE scores Nations and Cultures IMPOVERSHING MILLIONS OF HUMANS MURDERING HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF INNOCENTS in pursuit of profit ENSLAVING MILLIONS OF FELLOW HUMANS in pursuit of profit.
hardly the signs of a benevolent people.
I might be oversimplifying here. Arranged marriages = same caste marriages = guaranteed continuity of the caste system. “Love” marriages (they are still called that in India) = mixed marriages = gradual dissolution of castes. It’s not wishful thinking. Ask Indians in Trinidad and Guyana what their caste is. Indians in those countries haven’t practiced arranged marriages in over 50 years, and that has not only obliterated the caste system, which was naturally very strong among the early Indian immigrants, but also the religious barriers.
Among ABD Hindus, in my experience 50%+ of marriages are across caste/regional lines. But what has that to do with India? So long as the state recognizes caste as an organizing category, there is little hope it will disappear. The Supreme Court ruled that in “mixed” marriages, the father’s caste prevails.
S Jain:
And these Christian Missionaries do not have a desire to help India or Indians in any meaningful way, besides increasing their own head count. Yes, they have done some wonderful work in India, but there sole and ultimate motive is to increase their head count at any cost. Do you find it acceptable that such moves should be encouraged even at the cost of Indian Culture?
Goddamn (heh-heh) right I do. If they’re doing “wonderful work” does it matter that their motivation is to “win souls for Christ,” and that they actually manage to convert people along with helping them? Or does person’s religion matter more than bettering his lot in life?
As for “at the cost of Indian Culture,” that’s just ignorant. Is being Hindu necessary to being Indian, especially considering that India is supposed to be a secular state and not the Hindu version of Iran? Because a 2000 year-old Christian community in India would disagree with you.
Celeritas Subpontus
Macacaroach – I’m questioning the presumption that these descriptions of Indian society are accurate. A culture cannot survive if it has no solid merit. The fact that Indian culture has existed for so long, and in fact is one of the few pre-Christian civilizations to exist to this day, must mean that Indian culture and society were stable. Stability does not come from disgusting practices such as the ones you highlight but has to rest on a sound foundation. Nobody describes western civilzation as an witch-burning, minority-incarcerating culture. The same standard should be applied to India.
desitude –
“Among ABD Hindus,”
ABD??
Nobody describes western civilzation as an witch-burning, minority-incarcerating culture. The same standard should be applied to India.
I agree.
Ah, somebody go to wikipedia article on Sati, and find out yourself.
Now to Singh – Could be a Jat from Rajasthan, UP, Bihar, Punjab, Orrisa, MP, Maharashtra , A Sikh, A Rajput, From Scheduled Caste and Tribes. I know a few singhs who just changed their names to Singh to make them caste invariant.
Meenakshi – Thanks, yes, I am Arjun Singh.
Macacaroach said:
Show some gratitude fella. Or do you really think the British finally ending the centuries old hindu customs of widow-burning, human sacrifice, crushing suicide under the Juggernaut etc were strictly hypocritical rationalizing bullshit?
During the British colonial era, Christian missionaries promulgated a myth that Hindu devotees of Krishna were lunatic fanatics who threw themselves under the wheels of these chariots in order to attain salvation. Such a description can also be found in the popular fourteenth-century work “The Travels of Sir John Mandeville.” – Wikipedia
Goddamn (heh-heh) right I do. If they’re doing “wonderful work” does it matter that their motivation is to “win souls for Christ.”
But the longstanding Christian communities in India also practiced caste. In the Travancore region of Kerala, oil for the Hindu temple had to be purified by a “Nasrani” (Christian) after coming from the “Sudra” Nair’s shop. He simply put his finger to it. They also shunned untouchables like everyone else. The Goan Christians recognize Brahmins among them, etc. etc.
People keep tossing around pre- and post-colonization GDP figures like they mean something. Saudi Arabia has a higher GDP than Norway. Where would you rather live?
Pick a different criteria.
CS