Taz’s post today had one of the strangest statistics I’d ever seen — that 25% of South Asian Americans had, in 1990, identified themselves on the U.S. census as “white,” while 5% identified themselves as “black.”
It made me think of a post by progressive Muslim blogger Ali Eteraz from last week, where he discussed his own variant of an identity term crisis, not on racial but religious terms:
I onced asked a little kid I know what he was. He was like, um, er, I am a Pakistani-Muslim-American. I was like, what the hell, thatÂ’s messed up, little kids shouldnÂ’t have to hyphenate their identities like that, man.
Then one day I was typing up a post and I was like dammit I am really tired of having to write out the whole word “American-Muslim” or “American-Islam.” It’s just tiring.
So I decided that we needed a new ONE WORD term to call ourselves. . . In the end, I decided IÂ’m going to use “AmeriMuslim” – it is easy to understand, and it sounds like “A merry Muslim.” So from now on, thatÂ’s what IÂ’m going to use as my identity, thatÂ’s what IÂ’m going to teach nieces and nephews to say, and thatÂ’s what IÂ’m going to use even in my actual publications.(link)
Given that Ali Eteraz is (I believe) of Pakistani descent, my first thought is to say, “well, why not South Asian?” If we want to limit it to just one word, why not “desi” or “deshi”? Of course, in a sense I already know the answer: if religion is the most important aspect of one’s identity, one obviously privileges it over ethnicity. (Analogously, I also know a fair number of conservative Sikhs who are adamantly “Sikh American” and not “Indian American” or “South Asian American.”) Within individual states in the Indian Subcontinent, the term “South Asian” is rarely used. The progressive magazine Himal Southasian attempts to move beyond national identifications to a more regional, South Asian focus, but it’s the only enterprise I know of that does that. If “South Asian” exists mainly in the imagination of the diaspora, does that make it less meaningful?
Finally, I’ve noticed that more liberal Indian Americans in my acquaintance (of any religion) usually don’t bother with “South Asian” except when talking about someone whose national background isn’t known. It’s “Indian American” or just “Indian” (sometimes you even hear the slang term “Indo” — as in “there were a lot of Indos at the club”). In the comments at Sepia Mutiny at various points, people have also disparaged the term “South Asian” — mostly Indian nationalists, who’d rather deemphasize any association with Pakistan or Bangladesh. (On Pickled Politics, Sunny posted that conservative Hindus and Sikhs in England have been making similar arguments.) Is “South Asian” one of those terms that exists mainly in the abstract, to describe large groups and populations — but not necessarily individual people?
If that were the case, I’d be married by now. < 3
My in laws are not actually orthodox jews, they just go to an orthodox synagogue. My husband describes himself as “conservative-ish”. So the kids wouldn’t be orthodox jews, just jews I guess. I know I might get a lot of argument on this but I don’t think practicing hinduism at the same time will compromise their jewish identity. First of all, I’m not that religious, and the reason I practice any religion at all has a lot to do with nostalgia which I will freely admit. Secondly, my family (like many Indians) practices a very open kind of Hinduism, so I don’t see practicing elements of both as mutually exclusive. Obviously, some things like idol worship are directly against the dictates of Judaism and we’ll have to nix those. But I think a lot of Hindu festivals are folkloric/cultural as much as religious and those are the aspects that are important to me anyway. And the one thing we have not figured out yet is that theoretically, the kids will not be Jewish unless they convert, because Judaism is passed on matrilineally. I don’t think a baby should have to convert so we’ll have to see about that. I don’t think either one of us would be upset if the kids grew up to be atheists, we just want them to know where they came from. Obviously my opinions are not going to fly everywhere, and I realize that too. Hope that answers your question.
And the one thing we have not figured out yet is that theoretically, the kids will not be Jewish unless they convert, because Judaism is passed on matrilineally.
non-reform. the reform accept patrilinean descent, and contend that matrilineal descent was an innovation introduced during the roman era. as you note there is plenty of intermarriage in the torah of non-jewish females with jewish males and the offspring and considered jewish.
i for one await and welcome the reaction from our new cat overlords at your impudence.
Can I get a what what from the crew? Razib, I didn’t know you were down with the cat cause brother…
Anna, I didn’t mean EVERYONE turns out to be accepting. I know I’m lucky in both my family and his. I know plenty of perfectly good relationships that ended because of non-acceptance. I also know it’s not easy to go against your parents or someone else’s parents, or a community as a whole. I’m just saying that sometimes the people you would expect to be the least tolerant are the most accepting, and vice versa.
coach, it is highly permissible.
thanks. hope it didn’t come across as being too intrusive.
Not too intrusive. I get asked that question ALL the time.
Left and Right are not laid out on a straight line but on a circle. Far left and far right indeed meet. Stop being so linear, think curves 🙂
You get a What What here, Coach. Cat people represent!
I stand corrected….although I’ll have to take your word for it 😉
I underestimated the appetite for discussion…
same brother, same.
I think the issue is the idea, to us 1st geners anyway, of asking for a feeling of community which is not there. It is a little bit like asking a bunch of squirrels to identify with badgers because they are from the same part of the forest. Technically true, but it can be dangerous to the squirrels.
i’m uzbek.
i’m a finn, a nigerian, a south south american and a north north american. did i also say that i’m a west central south asian? oh, and how about a northern hemipshere australian, and a antarctic hawaiian. also, check it, i’m a mississipi peruvian, a white black dude and a black white dude as a brown yellow face. i’m a pakistani citizen of jammu and a indian man from quetta. i’m a chick with a schlong and an alien of the human species. i’m a paleolithic man stuck in a post-neolithic age.
anyone remember snow?
“What would assimilation look like? Not wearing a sari? Not eating curry? Indian culture is shaping to world culture. World culture is not destroying Indian culture.”
Preston jee – What is it with certain light skinned ethnicites from India? During the days of the British, in pursuit of fortune, they sold out the country, which gave them sanctuary. By colluding with the British. And these days, the only time they have something nice to say about India, is when they are sucking up to the Indian business elite, once again, in pursuit of fortune. Ugly.
Anna, I’ve heard plenty of…interesting theories or objections applied to the much-derided SA label, but “rebelling against brown”? No. Quite the opposite.
Actually, this is an exceedingly common one. The SA identity is the way out of the morass of cultural shame. Shame for being poor, polytheistic, third world. It says: I have transcended this, I have broken the taboos, I have gained the higher, morally omniscient vantage point, which gives me the capacity to criticize and condemn my divided fathers and mothers. I am not them, who blundered in blindness and error, who shattered the peace on the subcontinent. I am, ahem, “progressive.”
when we raise children, when we become wealthier,
How much wealthier do we need to be/can we get?
I meant 2gens. 1gens are already wealthy, and frankly don’t have identity issues!
…when, thanks to intermarriage with brownz from different communities, “regional” affinities start to fade away –
Uh…all the MORE reason to NOT fixate on “Indian” and to value/rally behind an inclusive label, since this doesn’t just refer to a Mallu marrying a Punjabi (Hi Jai…how YOU doin’?) but to people in the diaspora whose roots are in one nation marrying someone from a different South Asian country. I have a Sri Lankan friend who is married to a Goan. But hey, to hell with her…”Indian” will prevail, right?
or Brown? Brown at least speaks to the genetic commonality. I agree with Kush’s comments. Marriage across racial or cultural lines needn’t shatter one’s individuality. One needn’t be confused, your blood and your beliefs – your culture – are always with you.
If it’s “hippies” who are staunchly SAA, then I need to return my pearls, plaid-lined trench and sorority letters. Kya bakwas. I’m an erstwhile elephant/current independent and I am South Asian. It’s beyond silly to assume something about those of us who choose to self-label inclusively. This isn’t about being hip and progressive– this is about courtesy and common sense.
Hippy is a state of mind. Actually yeti made some good points above. There is a class issue at work here. South Asian is an elite designation, adopted by hyper-educated people who have only seen peace, who have not bathed in the blood wrought from nation building and identity formation, and crucially, who have no regard for the people who did. They attach some ersatz moral significance to ‘inclusiveness’. Poorer people do not choose identities from a progressive picklist. Their choices – Muslim, Hindu, Pakistani – actually mean something. To me, SA is fine over a cocktail in this land where no one really cares, but beyond that, a blank, a cypher, empty. Political formation? Please.
The most ‘courteous’ thing I can do for my Pakistani neighbor is to be sure of myself and who I am. Compassion, empathy, sympathy flow from the strong, not from the weak or the confused. And I bet you my neighbor would respect me a heckuva a lot more.
You obviously find much meaning in South Asian; I understand from reading your “We are All South Asian” entry that it came from your father. I am just saying why I respectfully disagree, and to each his own.
Cheers
there is no life beyond the cocktail excepting the animal mutterings of the field. live the life of gilgamesh, not enkidu before the harlot.
I think AFTER ALL THIS we can simply conclude what we already knew…’south asian’ as a term, has a different meaning/connotation to 2nd genners like Abhi and Anna, who find utility and meaning in it, than it does for 1st genners, for whom it seems to have different connotations, ranging from inconsequential to insulting. I personally am a 2nd genner myself, who finds the term minimally useful at best, in most contexts, but I don’t have very strong feelings against it…I AM a south asian in a factual sense, as Anna described, even if I don’t necessarily buy into most of the IDEOLOGICAL underpinnings of the word…while I recognize cultural/racial/historical/geographic links with Pakistanis/Bangladeshis and the rest (as Al Muhajid said, some of us have more in common with Pakistanis than with other Indians), and find the term ‘desi’ has resonance with me, I’m quite comfortable calling myself Indian in most contexts. As for what Kenyandesi mentioned as objections to the word ‘Indian’, I would ask her, firstly, is she opposed to the notion of the nation-state known as India today (does she think it’s not a valid or justified entity), and furthermore, the region where her ancestors hailed from is still entirely within India, so why does it matter if Pakistan/Bangladesh are no longer there? Also, why not whole-heartedly (rather than reluctantly) call herself Gujarati?
i echo your sentiment in its tenor amitabh. my main exposure to ‘south asian’ is via this blog, so i don’t have an automatic distaste for the term because of its ideological associations. sure it’s an abstract term, but in the end, who cares? people will hang out with who they hang out with. i think that religious identities will probably win out over any national sensibilities (e.g., evangelical brown christians will assimilate into an evangelical subculture, secular hindus will assimilate into the confessionless Zeitgeist of secular americans, brown muslims into the muslim, etc.). but that’s just my guess.
…brown….
Best razib post of all time.
bowing down
(stop, collaborate and listn…yes unfortunately i remember..and i was trying to get it out from my memory bank)
Thought of an analogy for the South Asian term – North American. When talking to my Canadian relatives about some issue or lifestyle common to both America and Canada – and there are plenty of those – I use the term North American. Of course, there is no need for the term when I am with Americans. One would simply say American instead. Perhaps South Asian is like that.
Perhaps South Asian is like that.
no. no one’s freezing. also, indians don’t ever forget that pakistan exists. oh, and pakistanis have balls.
oh, and one indian rupee isn’t like 1,000 pakistani currencies or whatever.
Razib Catwallah,
No, I was talking about the (South) Asian population in the UK as a whole, with regards to the overarching (South)”Asian” identity and the supposed associated unity between the various desi communities here. More details below…..
Kenyandesi,
Partly, although not desi immigrants, who are percentagewise much less in the UK with regards to the rest of the desi population here, compared to our counterparts over in the US. The vast majority of desis in the UK were born here, apart from those over the age of 40ish.
During the past 10-15 years, there’s been an increasing tendency towards an “Ummah” mindset amongst desi Muslims here, especially amongst those of a Pakistani origin. In part this has been fuelled by the fact that religious and community leadership amongst them has often been hijacked by 1st-Gen Arab immigrants, who have played some part in the “Arabisation” of what had previously been a generally “subcontinental” interpretation of Islam amongst desi Muslims, and the fact that the latter have obviously been made hyperaware of the “oppression” of various Muslim communities in the Middle-East and farther afield has to some extent also resulted in our Pakistani brothers & sisters being torn apart from the rest of us. There are plenty of exceptions, of course, but in some quarters this does seem to be an increasing tendency. The assertion of pan-Muslim identity, including veils/burkhas/niqabs amongst the women and skullcaps etc amongst the men, has also become much more prominent in Britain. I remember back in the 90s when we all regarded ourselves as “Asian” (to use the British version of the term South Asian) first and foremost — the same kind of unifying, commonality-based identity that SM has been trying to promote, and it’s tragic how things have developed, even though these things were already going on in the background at that time too.
Of course, 9/11, 7/7, and other global events during the past 5-6 years have contributed to this too. The British counterpart of SM, Pickled Politics, frequently has discussions on this topic, so please check that out if you want to read the “inside info” from a British desi perspective.
To some extent I would say that it’s 2nd/3rd gen immigrants who feel this more strongly, especially amongst some of the Muslim desi population as discussed above. The older parents’ generation amongst Indians (overwhelmingly Hindu & Sikh here) have obviously always been fairly ambivalent about being called “Asian” rather than Indian etc, but a lot of them aren’t happy about the “split” in recent times either.
The recent drive towards “British Indian”, “British Hindu” etc terms has been a reaction to events of the past couple of years — both with regards to many South Asian Muslims disassociating themselves from their non-Muslim desi counterparts and identifying most of all with Muslims globally (especially in the Middle East), and also because many non-Muslim desis don’t want to be dragged into the issues associated with what is now regarded as a particularly problematic religious minority group here. There’s a lot of “guilt by association” which goes on — especially as the terms (South)”Asian” and “Muslim” are frequently used interchangably within the British media — so many Indians/Hindus/Sikhs etc don’t want to be identified with that.
AlMfD,
It’s actually “innit” — an abbreviated slang form of “isn’t it”. I guess in some quarters it’s the British equivalent of the American term “ain’t it”. Some bhangramuffin types here say it a lot, or at least they did when I was at college about a decade ago 😉
Whose God is it anyways
Yes I remember that one — I though it was hilarious how that gay ski instructor was blatantly chasing Niles, and Niles was blissfully unaware of what was going on until right at the very end.
Many other superb episodes too — the one where Frasier’s involved with that “supermodel-zoologist” and his entire family thinks he’s just inventing an imaginary girlfriend, or the episode where Martin thinks Niles is trying to kill him (remember how Frasier thinks he’s finally got the apartment to himself, and is trying to suavely “set the mood” for his date with a model by playing his stereo and boogeying for a few seconds when he thinks she’s arrived, but his family keeps barging in). Another great episode was when Frasier inadvertantly sets fire to Martin’s chair and destroys it by accidentally dropping it off the balcony. Let’s also not forget one of the (I think) Valentine’s Day episodes where right at the start, Niles is multitasking in Frasier’s apartment; there’s no dialogue, but Niles ends up setting fire to the couch and keeps passing out everytime he sees his own bleeding finger; David Hyde Pierce is excellent at “silent acting” — and he completely deserves all those awards he got for “Best Supporting Actor”.
Countless other examples too; I think I’ve already listed about 50 of them ! I think they wrapped up the show brilliantly — the last 2 episodes — and the way that Niles & his father finally said goodbye to Frasier was depicted in a very realistic and quite tearjerking way (especially his father’s reaction, when they’re all standing near the front door).
Outstanding show from start to finish.
actually thats vanilla ice ms. legume. I’m sure you know Snow’s one hit wonder. Same difference. I always pretended I knew the lyrics to both songs while at parties. And I knew them even better under the influence =)
btw, I just found out yesterday that the bassline in ice ice baby was sampled. Motherf#%ing sonofab#$h! I never knew!
Yeah, stolen from our man Freddie’s bout with David Bowie. Great song,
desibrown connection.Okay, after 6 months of reading this, I have to pipe up. The term desi simply means indigenous and I don’t think can be used in the context of this discussion. Even a Latino taking to another Latino can point to a third Latino and say he’s desi meaning he’s from the same Latino country as them. Or else it can be used to distingush from something that’s foreign as in “this is desi” and “that is pardesi” (foreign). But it certainly cannot be used in response to the question “where are you from”. The response “I’m indigenous” means I’m American if said in American, Polish if said in Poland, etc. I’m surprised the other hindi speakers noticed this. And that is why your parents don’t use this term except to identify other desis.
From the FAQs.. This sounds like a nice idea.. different identity names for different generations.. That would solve a few problems.. 🙂
This should be sung to the tune of the 90’s song ‘Bitch’ by Meredith Brooks…
Pathetic, pseudo-intellectual, nationalistic whining. There has been more blood shed between China, Japan and Korea; and between Germany, France and England; yet they don’t nitpick over the words East Asian and Western European respectively, do they?
South Asian is not an ideological term as some of you geniuses are complaining. It simply denotes a geographical/ethnical/historical reality that differentiates desis from west asians, east asians and south-east asians. Capisce?
The words asian and brown are far too broad to serve any useful purpose.
“Outstanding show from start to finish.”
Jai, I concur. my test for a great show is if i can repeatedly watch re-runs and still enjoy the episodes. frasier passes with flying colours. love the witty literary allusions/distortions and self-congratulatory snobbery.
Jai, I don’t know if ‘Cheers’ (which was the original show that Frasier later spun off from) was ever shown in the UK, but I think it was one of the best shows ever, even funnier than Frasier (depending on your tastes; the two shows had very different tones). Have you ever seen it? The best years were when Kirstie Alley and Woody Harrelson were there. I didn’t watch the first several seasons since I was very young at the time, but I watched the final few years and they were awesome.
The term desi simply means indigenous and I don’t think can be used in the context of this discussion.
uh, you know that many tribes call themselves ‘the people’ right?
my yaar macacaroach –
“Pathetic, pseudo-intellectual, nationalistic whining. There has been more blood shed between China, Japan and Korea; and between Germany, France and England; yet they don’t nitpick over the words East Asian and Western European respectively, do they?”
Koreans, Japanese and Chinese do not “hang out” together in the blogosphere or on anywhere on terra firma, nor do they profess a “shared” culture. The only thing they share is unadulterated hatred for each other. We “South Asians” should learn from them.
Koreans, Japanese and Chinese do not “hang out” together in the blogosphere or on anywhere on terra firma, nor do they profess a “shared” culture. The only thing they share is unadulterated hatred for each other.
and how much they detest black south asians. they would be offended, insulted even, at mention of them in the same sentence as black south asians. pathetic, delusional even.
Agreed. Cheers is still according to me the best sitcom that I ever watched. Never watched the Office (either UK or the US version)
.
I prefer the older ones with Diane and the Coach but even the ones with Rebecca and Woody were very good. Norm was my favorite. I am sure you can find the re-runs on some cable channel.
I second that. I loved the episode where Woody wanted to buy his Mom a carborator (sp?) as a gift and everyone convinced him to buy a silver bowl instead. Then his mother used the bowl as an oil drip pan when she worked on her car and raved about the carborator that her other son bought.
I kind of thought Lilith was funnier than Frasier on Cheers.
Also loved Cliff Claven’s short foray into stand up comedy (“What’s up with that?”)
since we are threadjacking here….
Seinfeld.
and how much they detest black south asians. they would be offended, insulted even, at mention of them in the same sentence as black south asians. pathetic, delusional even.
We brownz are sorry, half starved brutes; flaccid-brained, the laughing stocks of everyone. The Asians are better than us. The captain of the Australian cricket team is half-Mongoloid, and superior. Our biggest “delusion” is calling ourselves brown when we are actually black. Black is beautiful, Krishna was black, you pathetic pseudo-intellectual!
Amitabh,
a. I don’t object to the nation-state of India (or the Indians it encompasses :). It’s just that the arbitrary/imagionary lines that constitute the borders of Kenya hold more meaning to me than the imaginary lines that encompass what is today known as India. That is, I feel equally at home (or really not) in India as in Pakistan or Nepal. I feel foreign, they see me as foreign, and not just any foreign, but they know when I walk/talk/act that “Aphrica se ayya hai”
b. Not all my family lived soley in Gujrat pre-migration. And the argument you make could be an interesting vantage point from which to examine the J/K issue (if the whole of region x from which you hail is in India why do you care whether or not J/K is? C’mmon….
c. Once upon a time I had a HUGE crush on a boy. He told me after talking to his parents that he couldn’t date me because they wanted him to be with someone Indian. I not only understood what he was saying, it just further reinforced my own perceptions of my non-Indianess
Ehhh please huh, I am whole heartedly Guju. I do the guju-hi-five when I laugh, I do whatever I can to redeem my people’s status as the cheap ones (except I’m a sucker for a good deal), I -cho and -che and -fy everything etc etc. BUT I am resoundingly East African Guju with Swahili peppering my Gujrati, no Gorr in all my food, no chasni (sugar water) for tea…yeckh! and so on and so forth. And that’s where I see my Kenyan-ness as such a huge part of my identity, even my Gujurati identity.
Jai, It is sad to hear about what is happening in the UK with the stratification of Asians into different segments. I know that for me one of the highlights of my upbringing was the cohesiveness of the Asian community in Nairobi. I can’t imagine not having all the varied friends I do, not spending so much time at Khane or the Gurudwara (on the flip side, we hardly ever went to Hindu temples now that I think about it), or not being able to celebrate Eid with my Muslim friends or not having them spend Diwali with me…sigh
Whose God is it anyways,
Exactly. It was brilliant on so many different levels. I think that’s where Joey slipped up — many people thought it would be a successful spin-off in its own right just like Frasier was, but the difference was that while Frasier was deliberately kept quite intellectual (even if many of the viewers wouldn’t get the more obscure cultural/literary/musical/historical references), Joey basically ran out of steam because the hero’s lack of brainpower created a limit on his capacity for constant witty banter and deep insight. The fact that both Frasier and Niles, despite their flaws, were very highly-educated professionals and obviously extremely smart meant that the overall tone could be kept consistently high. Not so easy to do that if your lead character isn’t the sharpest tool in the box. There are only so many “look how stupid Joey is” jokes you can have.
Joey was my favourite character by the time Friends finished, by the way (along with Chandler — one of my best friends is actually just like a cooler, non-insecure Indian version of him !), so I’m not trying to put down the character himself here. His lack of brainpower ended up being a built-in flaw to the spin-off, so I’m not surprised it was cancelled. The show was quite a disappointment.
Anyway, on a side note, I think that many people on this blog will agree that Frasier’s apartment was absolutely amazing !
I’ve sometimes thought that an Indian version of Frasier — one actually created by Indian tv channels and based in Delhi or Mumbai, for example — would be an excellent idea. Some of the current “comedy” shows they have can be quite childish, so a desi version of Dr Frasier Crane and his family might help to raise the standard over there.
Ignorant nonsense. East Asians do have a shared culture and history. Please educate yourself.
And their hatreds, like the hatreds between english, french and germans, havent prevented the japanese and koreans from investing massively in China. China is Japan’s biggest trading partner.
Fot those of you in DC who want another perspective on this identity thing (no-DC’ers can buy the book):
November 16, 2006 (Thursday) 6:30 – 8:00 PM (Langston Room) What does race have to do with religion? According to author Khyati Y. Joshi, quite a bit. Her new book, New Roots in America’s Sacred Ground, offers a compelling look at the ways that second generation Indian Americans develop and change their sense of ethnic identity, she reveals how race and religion interact, intersect, and affect each other in a myriad of complex ways. In a society where Christianity and whiteness are the norm, most Indian Americans are both racial and religious minorities. Joshi offers important insights in the wake of 9/11 and the intensified backlash against Americans who look Middle Eastern and South Asian. She also provides a timely window into the ways that race, religion, and ethnicity coincide in day-to-day life. Book talk and signing.
Amitabh,
Yes, Cheers was shown in the UK from the beginning right to the very end. I was quite a fan of it when I was younger — wasn’t Sam Malone an all-round really cool guy, at least if you were a teenager at the time ? 😉 — although I only caught the tail-end of the Coach/Diane years as I was quite young as well. Kirstie Alley was really hot then too (and fresh from Star Trek 2 !); I remember the plotlines with the millionaire Roger Rees character too. Hell, I can still remember some of Sam’s lascivious jokes.
Having occasionally seen some re-runs recently (which are on all the time here), I do think it feels quite dated in some ways, but that’s just a personal opinion. I do generally think Frasier’s better, although it helps that in many aspects it’s so different to Cheers.
Incidentally, Frasier was recently voted the best comedy show of all time here in the UK.