Speaking of Self-Description: “South Asian”

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Taz’s post today had one of the strangest statistics I’d ever seen — that 25% of South Asian Americans had, in 1990, identified themselves on the U.S. census as “white,” while 5% identified themselves as “black.”

It made me think of a post by progressive Muslim blogger Ali Eteraz from last week, where he discussed his own variant of an identity term crisis, not on racial but religious terms:

I onced asked a little kid I know what he was. He was like, um, er, I am a Pakistani-Muslim-American. I was like, what the hell, thatÂ’s messed up, little kids shouldnÂ’t have to hyphenate their identities like that, man.

Then one day I was typing up a post and I was like dammit I am really tired of having to write out the whole word “American-Muslim” or “American-Islam.” It’s just tiring.

So I decided that we needed a new ONE WORD term to call ourselves. . . In the end, I decided IÂ’m going to use “AmeriMuslim” – it is easy to understand, and it sounds like “A merry Muslim.” So from now on, thatÂ’s what IÂ’m going to use as my identity, thatÂ’s what IÂ’m going to teach nieces and nephews to say, and thatÂ’s what IÂ’m going to use even in my actual publications.(link)

Given that Ali Eteraz is (I believe) of Pakistani descent, my first thought is to say, “well, why not South Asian?” If we want to limit it to just one word, why not “desi” or “deshi”? Of course, in a sense I already know the answer: if religion is the most important aspect of one’s identity, one obviously privileges it over ethnicity. (Analogously, I also know a fair number of conservative Sikhs who are adamantly “Sikh American” and not “Indian American” or “South Asian American.”) Within individual states in the Indian Subcontinent, the term “South Asian” is rarely used. The progressive magazine Himal Southasian attempts to move beyond national identifications to a more regional, South Asian focus, but it’s the only enterprise I know of that does that. If “South Asian” exists mainly in the imagination of the diaspora, does that make it less meaningful?

Finally, I’ve noticed that more liberal Indian Americans in my acquaintance (of any religion) usually don’t bother with “South Asian” except when talking about someone whose national background isn’t known. It’s “Indian American” or just “Indian” (sometimes you even hear the slang term “Indo” — as in “there were a lot of Indos at the club”). In the comments at Sepia Mutiny at various points, people have also disparaged the term “South Asian” — mostly Indian nationalists, who’d rather deemphasize any association with Pakistan or Bangladesh. (On Pickled Politics, Sunny posted that conservative Hindus and Sikhs in England have been making similar arguments.) Is “South Asian” one of those terms that exists mainly in the abstract, to describe large groups and populations — but not necessarily individual people?

409 thoughts on “Speaking of Self-Description: “South Asian””

  3. Calling oneself “south asian”, when one is “north american” seems a little odd. race has always struck me as an artificial construct. it’s wierd when you can call yourseld “south asian” if you only go to vacations in south asia now and then, and were born in the US…

  4. I’m so glad you brought this up, Amardeep. I tend to think of “South Asian” as an English word for expressing “desi.” (I’m not saying it’s the literal translation, obviously.) Instead of saying Desi American, I would use South Asian American. So in that sense, the terms isn’t generic or abstract to me. Growing up, I knew exactly what someone meant when they referred to “desi” people or things. I never assumed that they were referring to something or someone exclusively of Pakistani origin, like I am, but that they might be Pakistani, Indian, Bangladeshi, etc. Now that desis are a much more visible and prominent community in North America, I think the term “South Asian American” is useful in that it provides a similar marker in English.

    Whether we like it or not, desis are bound by common languages, customs, etc., even if they may be divided in terms of national origin or religion. (I don’t know about race–what race are we? Still confused on this one.) So South Asian is a good marker for that–though you can, obviously, identify yourself in terms of even greater specificity (ie, South Asian American and Indian American, or South Asian American and Pakistani American). I think it’s sad when we let religious or national politics get in the way of unifying the rich desi culture that is comprised of people who share both similarities and differences.

  5. Personally, I have never met anyone who self-identifies as “South Asian”.

    Perhaps not personally, but you have virtually. Enchanted to make your acquaintance btw, in case I didn’t say it a few months ago.

  6. It has frustrated me for over two years now how commenters on this site keep misuderstanding the use of the word “South Asian” and disparage it out of contextual ignorance as much as because of sense of Indian Nationalism. Let me break it down:

    1) You can call yourself both South Asian American and Indian American (or Pakistani American, Sri Lankan American, etc.). The terms are NOT mutually exclusive. It is totally based on the context of the situation.

    2) NOBODY calls themselves South Asian when they are North American. Pulligore’s comment above is a clear demonstration of the continuing misunderstanding I am talking about. They might call themselves an American of South Asian descent or an American of Indian (Pakistani, Sri Lankan, etc.) descent. Here is an example:

    Redneck: Hey, what are you?

    Abhi: Ummm, what do you mean? Are you refering to my ethnicity?

    Redneck: Yeah, are you middle-eastern or something?

    Abhi: No, I am not middle-eastern, I am South Asian. My parents are from India.

    Redneck: Oh. You speak good English.

    Abhi: I’m an American that was born here so why wouldn’t I?

    3) Pulligore above says: “I identify as an ‘American’.” Again, identities are not mutually exclusive. They are based on context and are different from country to country! Don’t dismiss them off-hand because of you own biases.

  7. I completely agree with Amardeep’s point. It is largely a meaningless term to individuals.

    I call BS on you BidiSmoker. Have you ever been to the UM campus? Check it out some time.

  8. 1) You can call yourself both South Asian American and Indian American (or Pakistani American, Sri Lankan American, etc.). The terms are NOT mutually exclusive. It is totally based on the context of the situation.

    Werd.

  9. I call BS on you BidiSmoker. Have you ever been to the UM campus? Check it out some time.

    As a U-M grad, werd to the squared.

  10. If “South Asian” exists mainly in the imagination of the diaspora, does that make it less meaningful?

    Only if we make it less meaningful. It’s not like the diaspora doesn’t have any effect on the desh.

    I feel like we covered a lot of this here, but I’d say briefly: in the diaspora we have the luxury of being able to break down national boundaries and explore similarities and differences with other brownz without thinking of each other as enemies for whatever reason. So why not do it?

  12. in the diaspora we have the luxury of being able to break down national boundaries and explore similarities and differences with other brownz without thinking of each other as enemies for whatever reason. So why not do it?

    Hell yeah. I think we are well on our way.

  13. As a U-M grad, werd to the squared.

    Yeah? And speaking as the-only-brown-UC Davis-grad-EVER- who-wasn’t-bitterly-settling-b/c-they-were-rejected-from-CAL…

    …ah forget it. 😉 Go Ags! More relevantly, GO BROWN! 😀

  14. There is only ONE “The UM Campus,” and that is the great University of Michigan.

    SM: Sorry, but he provoked me, I couldn’t help it. I will refrain from getting off topic in the future. 🙂

  16. I agree with Abhi and Ismat with respect to 2nd gen folks, especially in the U.S. However, I do think among 1st geners, at least of my parents generation, the term South Asian is largely meaningless because they did not seem to interact much with desi folk outside of their respective communities (e.g., Tamils moving w/ Tamils, Gujus w/ Gujus, etc.). That has been my experience, anyway.

  18. Thanks for putting it that way, Vivek.

    Sriram:

    However, I do think among 1st geners, at least of my parents generation, the term South Asian is largely meaningless because they did not seem to interact much with desi folk outside of their respective communities (e.g., Tamils moving w/ Tamils, Gujus w/ Gujus, etc.).

    I feel you, but wouldn’t you say that they do identify with “desi”? I know my parents socialized (and still do) with quite a few other desi immigrants–Indian, Bangladeshi, Pakistani, Nepalese, etc.–when they came here, if only because they were living in a community where desis in general were few and far between.

    Anyway, I just mean that to say that they did consider themselves desi, and so while they may not have termed themselves as such, also South Asian.

  19. I feel you, but wouldn’t you say that they do identify with “desi”?

    I don’t know whether they’re the exception or not, but my parents, and most of their close friends, rarely if ever use the word, “desi.” So again, with respect to my personal experience I would have to say no. At the same time, my parents have been living in the D.C. area, where there are brown folk a plenty, for over 30 years, so I’m sure their experience is different from that of your parents.

  21. I think South Asian is a term that is used to describe other people but not a term a person would use to identify themselves. It’s analogous to “North American” which no US American or Mexican would use to describe himself. Although, oddly, I think Canadians sometimes use that term to describe themselves.

    Btw, American is a classification of national origin, not race. Therefore, you cannot say your racial identity is American. That would be like saying your racial identity is Russian.

  22. My mother has no problem with the term South Asian. But after three years of me throwing around the term Desi, she finally got fed up with it and told me that to her the term Desi meant North-Indian/Pakistani Hindi/Urdu speakers.

    Any takers for the term Subconti? Eh eh? It has that abbreviation we all love to use – come on, who’s enthu about Subconti?

  23. term Desi meant North-Indian/Pakistani Hindi/Urdu speakers.

    I’ve heard the same thing from older 1st gen people. But I think the divide between North and South was also much greater in the 70s than it is now.

    Can’t say I’m feeling Subconti all that much.

  24. when someone asks me what i am, the first term that immediately comes to mind is indian. not my religion or regional affiliation. they usually come much later. the term south asian doesn’t come to mind at all, except as some sort of geographical lumping, it doesn’t really resonate as an identity with me, although i belonged to my college’s south asian organization. it resonates as a suitable means/umbrella to describe a group of diverse people coming from similar but not the same culture (s). even the term indian subcontinent annoys some people, as does the term indian ocean. i think south asian is a term that satisfies everyone without offending too many people. it doesn’t mean i disparage it or object to it.

    i have an indian passport and i feel indian more than anything, even though i grew up knowing people and having best friends from other south asian countries. also, the term desi doesn’t resonate with all people of indian descent either, but it doesn’t mean they disparage it. while the diaspora has an impact on india and that is good at times, what resonates with the diaspora doesn’t necessarily resonate or should always resonate with indians (who don’t even always resonate with one another on a number of identity issues). A sense of camaraderie doesn’t always require labels.

  25. I am surprised that Indian Nationalist or Sangh Parivar sympathizers would oppose the term South Asians. This word and thought that whole South Asia is similar directly correlates with the RSS’s concept of the Akhand Bharat. RSS is one of the biggest proponent of the thought that Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Bhutan, Nepal & India should be united because they are culturally similar … This South Asian concept would only help RSS.

    Abhi: No, I am not middle-eastern, I am South Asian. My parents are from India.

    I don’t understand, why the second generation Indian-Americans are so eager to distance themselves from Indian-American tag. If your parents are from Indian then you are Indian-American. Just like a Chinese or Japaneese American wouldn’t call himself Asian American whose parents were born in China/Japan, Abhi why is it so hard for you to accept that you are Indian-American.

  26. When someone in US asks me where I am from? I respond India. I don’t say South Asia. So, in a sense, I identify myself as an Indian American, although I have never used that word. South Asian American seems so unwieldy. I bet if I say that to an American, their eyes would go all cross-eyed. However, to a fellow Desi, I would identify myself as a Bombayite, because being a Bombayite is a true expression of my culture. Do I wish that I could describe myself as a Bombay-American to American people? Of course. If they understood what I meant

    Is “South Asian” one of those terms that exists mainly in the abstract, to describe large groups and populations — but not necessarily individual people?

    Yes very much so. In fact, I would extend that to say that the term “Indian American” is also one of those terms that exists mainly in the abstract to describe a large group – but not necessarily individuals. We use the term because it’s convinient. But, IMO, most first-generation Indians draw their identity from either the place they were born, or their caste. Most people are Bombaiyas/Kannadigas/TamBrahms/Punjabi/Sikh first and Indian next. If you have to use terms that are an accurate representation of individual identities, you will end up with a 1001 terms

  27. I don’t understand, why the second generation Indian-Americans are so eager to distance themselves from Indian-American tag.

    S Jain, Again, you are making a totally false assumption. Because I didn’t use the phrase Indian-American in that one example of a conversation doesn’t mean I don’t use it regularly or even MORE OFTEN than I use the word “South Asian.” You have a preconceived idea about 2nd gens that you are projecting on to the phraseology used here. In fact someone asked me just last night “Are you middle-eastern?” You know what I replied? “No, I’m Indian.” It had to do with the context of that situation (which I won’t be explaining here).

  28. out of curiosity, do diaspora sri lankans, pakistanis and bangladeshis identify with the term south asian or advocate the use of south asian as much as many indians, indian-americans etc. appear to or is the drive to use it stemming primarily from people of indian descent? saarc meetings and geography class are two of the rare times we used “south asian” in school.

  29. My mother has no problem with the term South Asian. But after three years of me throwing around the term Desi, she finally got fed up with it and told me that to her the term Desi meant North-Indian/Pakistani Hindi/Urdu speakers.

    I can’t really get around ‘desi’ either, it just feels foreign and awkward. That isn’t even from a south/sri lankan pride POV either – I can’t even speak tamil.

    I go with brown. South Asian too, but only if i’m writing an essay 😛

  30. I don’t understand, why the second generation Indian-Americans are so eager to distance themselves from Indian-American tag.

    An interesting question. I think it’s because we don’t see much difference among 2nd gen-ers from various south asian backgrounds and most white people don’t see any difference whatsoever. Also, we should acknowledge that in the 5000+ year history of the Indian subcontinent, countries such as Pakistan or Bangladesh are very new and people of our great-grandparents generation and beyond didn’t identify that way because those countries didn’t exist.

    It’s kind of like how people with african ancestry don’t see themselves as Nigerian-American or Congo-American, just black. In fact, most black people don’t even know what part of africa their ancestors are from.

  32. Calling oneself “south asian”, when one is “north american” seems a little odd. race has always struck me as an artificial construct. it’s wierd when you can call yourseld “south asian” if you only go to vacations in south asia now and then, and were born in the US…

    I understand what this means, but when people ask me and I say “American” (which I do! or more lately “New Yorker”) they want more. As my kids say, “Ugh. Fine. What are your parents? What are your grandparents?” I specifically answer Indian. To me, “American” is not a race, but is “Indian” or “South Asian” a race? Oh this is all so confusing.

  33. We in the South Asian diaspora in the Caribbean refer to ourselves as “East Indians” – to diffrentiate from the Amerindians (Arwaks and Caribs). We refer to anyone born in the South Asian sub-continent as “Indian nationals.” The stress on the word “Indian” is probably because we are 5th generation or higher, and so when our ancestors left the sub-continent, it was all just “India.”

    I don’t believe we’ve come up with a term for the second generation South Asians in America. But the word South Asian is a conveninent term to refer to the diaspora in general – whether you are 1st, 2nd, or 5th.

  34. Whether the words “South Asian” or “Desi” are a false construction or not is not at all relevant to me. When it comes down to it, when you are looking from the outside in, Brown is Brown. There are many similarities culturally, linguistically etc. which is nice. More importantly to me, the terms allow for a critical mass of brown interests to potentially gain representation in this country, which after all is what we do care about. Don’t you remember all teh hate crimes etc. after 9/11? If we always break ourselves down by country of our parents origin, or worse, states and languages, we all lose out in the political landscape.

  35. 2nd generation lawyers have formed South Asian Bar Ass’ns in most of the big cities. A notable exception is in Chicago where the South Asian/Indian/brown/savages/desi lawyers took a vote in their membership and decided that they would call themselves the Indian American Bar Association of Chicago. Of course, this alienated the Pakistani lawyers who then formed the Pakistani American Bar Ass’n. The rest of the South Asian Bar Ass’ns from the other cities were not very pleased with the decision of the Chicago group. No word yet on where the Sri Lankan or Bangaleshi lawyers are supposed to go in Chicago.

  36. Calling oneself “south asian”, when one is “north american” seems a little odd. race has always struck me as an artificial construct.

    Race is an artificial construct and nations are not?!!!

  38. I carry my Indian tag always, that does not mean I disregard for other South Asian countries. In fact @ AGU (American Geophysical Union) meeting, on Friday December 16th, I am giving a talk on joint work between India and Pakistan , and other countries involved too. If you (Abhi) at AGU meeting in SF, please do drop by.

    I can empathize that as an Amerian, you (one) has shared experiences with other South Asian countries. I have close friends from Pakistan origin too. However,

    Joint work or friendship or respect or shared experiences ~= (not equal) ~= fuzzy terminology. Ground reality in South Asia You will be surprised how much interaction goes between South Asian countries – India-Pakistan border in Rann of Kutch is completely porous, so India-Bangladesh border. But I have to agree with BidiSmoker’s assesment about South Asian term used on Sepia Mutiny and from ivory towered faculty has no real meaning. It is just bakwaas.

  39. its all context (and geography). i am, simultaneously: global citizen, asian, south asian, non-resident indian, indian, north indian, UPite and Delhiite.

  40. Interesting, Safraz – I’m curious – does anyone use the term brown there to self-identify? Not just Desis/South Asians.

  41. Analogously, I also know a fair number of conservative Sikhs who are adamantly “Sikh American” and not “Indian American” or “South Asian American.”

    Actually, Deep, I beg to differ. Most of those who primarily identify with being Sikh-American have no problem being SouthAsianAmerican as well, even if it is not their primary affiliation. What they object to, however, is being Indian-American. It’s a post-1984 political decision to intentionally alienate themselves from a state they feel no kinship with.

  42. While Indians in the ivory tower of Columbia Uni etc go on painting everything SOUTH ASIAN, no one asked the poor Nepalis, Bangladeshis, Pakistanis if they would like to fall under the same bucket.

    So now there are situations where Pakis, Lankans, Nepalis etc automatically disassociate themselves from anything “SOUTH ASIAN”

    I have even heard that SOUTH ASIAN is a conspiracy by Indians to get them under same “Akhand Bharat” thing.

    So question is, if the intended audience of Pakis, Nepalis, Lankans hate the mention of SOUTH ASIAN term why on earth Srinivasans and other SAJAites go on with their South Asian thing? And why is Sepiamutiny – which publishes bollywood and 90% posts linked to India – keep on insisting South Asian tab?

    South Asian term is a passe..get over it.

  43. sa, does that mean that south asian americans are not asian americans? otherwise why wouldn’t they just join the asian american bar association or is that restricted to east and southeast asians? (not a facetious question by the way). and then what happens to middle eastern and other asian-descent (like central asian) lawyers? human beings truly are fascinating animals in this respect.

  44. It is just bakwaas.

    That’s what they said about women voting, too. But it happened. Things change, over time. And it just might happen that the terms I prefer, for the solidarity they create i.e. “South Asian” or “brown” might win this stupid, far-too-often-hashed-out-on-this-blog contest.

  45. In fact @ AGU (American Geophysical Union) meeting, on Friday December 16th, I am giving a talk on joint work between India and Pakistan , and other countries involved too. If you (Abhi) at AGU meeting in SF, please do drop by.

    Damn, will miss it. But my co-authors may present a paper there. I will let you know. I have 7 weeks to finish writing six chapters. Blech.

  46. what’s with labeling people who identify as sikh american as “conservative”? using an identity label to place a judgement on who is conservative or liberal sounds beyond silly. i identify as an american and i identify as a sikh-american and i identify as south asian am and i identify as liberal. nothing is mutually exclusive.

    also, not everyone is pulled by a certain identity label all the time. i call myself a sikh-american if i’m describing myself in issues specific to sikhs who are also american. but i also call myself south asian american, depending on the venue, most often with people who are “in” on identity language or who aren’t threatened by a pan-brown-nation concept. for me, these terms are used to describe not just “alliances” but also my worldview, which are not always static and are in continual flow. and that suits me just fine.

  48. Given that Ali Eteraz is (I believe) of Pakistani descent, my first thought is to say, “well, why not South Asian?” If we want to limit it to just one word, why not “desi” or “deshi”?

    Resonating #27 & #34…I lived in India for 14 years before moving here…I would not use the word “desi” to a non desi because how the heck is a non desi supposed to know what a desi is. And I don’t need to use the word desi with a desi person because they take one look at me and know I am one.

    The only time that word is uttered by me is in writing, idendifying a brown person, I use the word desi, which to me means Indian/Pakistani/Bangladesh/Sri Lankan…and I don’t extend outside of those countries.

    When someone asks me “Where are you from” they are asking me because I’m of some “ethnicity” that makes it obvious I may not have been born here. I gladly and always say India unless A. I want to be obnoxious with someone just wanting to chat me up in an unwelcome gesture or B. I’m outside of NYC and then I answer ‘I’m from New York.’

    Caveat: If I say I’m from NY and someone insists “No really where are you really from” I will then turn obnoxious and continue to give them details about NYC because at that point it confirms to me that the person is seeking to make me a foreigner and I find it mildly offensive. Not losing any sleep over it but that is how I’ve always seen my identity.

    I think I get asked at least once a day on an average where I’m from. Today the manicurist asked me. I always say India. I don’t really have a problem with it. It’s the absolute truth. The context of “South Asian” never ever occurs to me. I simply don’t use that word, it somehow comes across as foreign prescribed to me. I am from India, I have no problem saying I’m from India. It’s like someone from Colorado asking me where I’m from. I’ll say New York. Why the heck would I say “North east”…I find the whole “south asian” thing ambigious in that way.

    This is the final rule. When I’m outside of the United States I ALWAYS say I’m American when someone asks me where I’m from. Perhaps that sounds complicated but it’s almost always 100% clear to me.