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Towards a better, browner future |
Despite the economic progress among blacks in Queens, income gaps still endure within the borough’s black community, where immigrants, mostly from the Caribbean, are generally doing better than American-born blacks.
An earlier Malcom Gladwell article looked into some of these disparaties and observed –
…The implication of West Indian success is that racism does not really exist at all–at least, not in the form that we have assumed it does. The implication is that the key factor in understanding racial prejudice is not the behavior and attitudes of whites but the behavior and attitudes of blacks–not white discrimination but black culture. It implies that when the conservatives in Congress say the responsibility for ending urban poverty lies not with collective action but with the poor themselves they are right.
And, as Alex at Marginal Revolution notes, Gladwell tries hard (and somewhat unsuccessfully) to argue against the most obvious implication – put simply that Culture rather than Race is the primary determinant of success.
So what’s the Desi angle here?
… the Model Minority story is perpetrated by the Man to divide, conquer, and reinforce his hierarchy of powerWell, one of the ongoing, underlying debates at Sepia Mutiny is whether the Model Minority story is perpetrated by the Man to divide, conquer, and reinforce his hierarchy of power (see here, for ex.). For me, it’s tough for me to square that argument when many of the same folks who accuse the Man of crudely ignoring the diffs between Muslims, Bengalis, Sikhs, Afghanis, Hindus, etc. now suddenly accuse him of being able to distinguish a West Indian from an African American on something other than credit scores come loan-time.
Now given SM’s leftward drift of late, my right of center position probably comes across as flaming right. BUT, I’m still forced to look at results like the West Indian case above and argue that culture, rather than race drives these results. It’s pretty darn hard to construct a better experimental test case (although I’m a big fan of this recent one). Consequently, I’m skeptical about dispelling the Model Minority argument simply because opponents contend its supporters have a nefarious motive. The world of motives and intentions might make for great narrative drama (Arnold Kling once noted that this is the great, albeit ultimately detrimental, advantage of “type M” rather than “type C” arguments). But when rubber meets the road, the argument has a tough time holding up empirically especially relative to the clear data above.
What brings this entire debate so precariously close to the third rail, is the way folks – occasionally on both sides – conflate Race and Culture. This destroys a much needed precision in the conversation (if you want an example of this, just give the comment threads here a few minutes before some turd destroys precision with a blanket “uncle Tom” comment or the like).
When “conservatives” make Model Minority type arguments, it hits leftist 3rd rails on several levels. There is a leftist article of faith that all cultures are equal (except, only half jokingly, American redneck culture which must lose all such comparisons and is responsible for all the ills of the world). Making an argument about cultures having unequal outcomes sounds suspiciously close to arguing that races aren’t equal – BUT IT IS NOT. Or, if Western culture happens to come out on top in some such comparison, it reeks to lefty ears of neocolonialism. Or that Racism never did or still doesn’t exist – IT DID and DOES. But test cases like the West Indian case above give us valuable insights and hope for a world where culture and race are less inextricably linked and where dialog can be more constructive. What are the tactical things they are doing differently from their racial cousins? In this case, Thomas Sowell & Gladwell do note one example –
When the first wave of Caribbean immigrants came to New York and Boston, in the early nineteen-hundreds, other blacks dubbed them Jewmaicans, in derisive reference to the emphasis they placed on hard work and education.
For the Left, the Model Minority argument also attacks a core contention that unequal political power is the source of (and thus answer to) unequal economic outcomes and a host of other issues. What are Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton to do when West Indian’s aren’t Black Enough to be saved by amalgamating political power underneath them?
Opponents also conflate race and culture in a different way when they argue, for ex., that the Myth must be false because Indian cabbies clearly don’t make as much $$$ as Indian doctors. Perhaps the Indian doctor lives in a culture (albeit narrowly defined) which is different from the cabby’s and, for that matter, a good % of India? Afterall, we certainly know of household-to-household “cultural” differences with regard to education, ambition, etc. even within our extended families. And perhaps Indian culture as a whole is going through a cultural transformation which is why this generation has a considerably different economic opportunity vs. their forefathers?
No Vinod! we are going to have this conversation. IÂ’m guessing that your position here is just not very bright.
🙂
Saw your link. I have to say you’re a cool customer if you let that pass.
This is a perfect little summary of what’s wrong with your argument. Working backward:
You think that never happens in the real world? Second, you are conflating my own assessment of the argument with my observation of how the argument plays out in political and social life.
No. As I said in my comment above, reducing the complex concept and workings of power to a single entity (anthropomorphized, at that) endowed with agency is simplistic, “infantile” in the sense I mentioned, and sets up a straw man.
No, it does not. All it says is that “Black” people are better-off on average in Queens than are “White” people, and suggests that a significant part of the explanation may be in the large proportion of West Indian immigrants who are counted under “Black.” The rest is what you want it to say, not what it says itself. It says absolutely nothing about “cultures” “performing” better than other “cultures,” neither in Queens, nor anywhere else.
If you want to ask why average incomes of West Indian households in Queens are higher than average incomes of African-American households in Queens, we can have that discussion. But to call this a difference between cultures is a fallacy — unless and until you can prove that it’s “cultural” variables that explain the difference. I’m certainly ready to have that discussion.
No, it does not. All it says is that “Black” people are better-off on average in Queens than are “White” people, and suggests that a significant part of the explanation may be in the large proportion of West Indian immigrants who are counted under “Black.” The rest is what you want it to say, not what it says itself. It says absolutely nothing about “cultures” “performing” better than other “cultures,” neither in Queens, nor anywhere else.
Good analysis.
I saw an earlier post on ‘mistrust’ in the African American community about the system which is largely a result of the institutionalized racism in the past and its remnants. I think the social consequences of that ‘mistrust’ are pretty significant.
The above reminds me of an example that shows how easy it is for an ethnic group to lose its ‘Model Minority’ status. Dr Patel has been blogged about here before, but in a nutshell 30+ years of South Asian doctors building a solid reputation in Australia (president of the australian medical association is a brown chap) was undone in a few months by the actions of ONE man. Now the general confidence of patients towards South Asian doctors – both overseas trained and local graduates – has visibly declined. I personally know of many brown doctors who have had rather nasty experiences.
The above only illustrates a particular profession, but I think it may also be relevant to a whole ethnic group. Would Indians still be attributed the same level of Model-Minoritiness if say, Tim Mcveigh or the Colorado kids where of Indian origin?
this is an interesting point, but i don’t buy it. the term model minority was coined in 1965. it referred to east asians (and wiki says jews). in all that time have no east asians and/or jews transgressed that model? jews in the USA have been part of radical leftist movements since they arrived, e.g., the communist party, anarchists, the new left, and a disproportionate number of the radicals and fringe types. the japanese were interned during world war II.
i don’t think people rest their perconception on the term ‘model minority.’ humans are bayesian analysts, but, they have a good intuitive grasp on averages when it comes to pragmatic rational decisions (rationality is bounded of course).
But what about the West Indian communities elsewhere in the US? It seems more likely that the group in Queens has developed a comprehensive set of community guidelines that works.
No one has answered the culture question yet, but when I talk about “culture” I am talking about a very specific set of values. Mainly that of valuing education… something that I feel has been lost in later generations of blacks. Which goes back to my previous comment on mistrust in the black community. Also, no one here seems to be focusing on the fact that the people in the West Indian community of Queens are already the type of people with a work hard attitude. The underclasses of Trinidad and Jamaica and wherever else come here and seek public assistance just like every other group of poor people in America…
Also, I will go out there and say that the issue of the model minority (whether certain groups are successful or not) is really harmful to those that do not fit into it. My experience with it was most prevalent in high school where I was repeatedly tracked into lower level math classes. Now I HATE doing math with a passion, but I have always pushed myself to take as much math (and science) as possible. Anyway, while I had a variety of teachers telling me they weren’t sure if I could make it, and east asian girlfriend of mine constantly slid under the radar. And from time to time she would tell me that she wasn’t doing well in the math classes and that she didn’t belong. Do I know for sure that my teachers actions were racially motivated? No. But I know that even though I had the work ethic, I had to overcome other people’s attitudes about how much I didn’t belong. I ended up dropping to AP Calc AB instead of taking BC like the rest of my peers. I think I only made it to that point because I was pissd that everyone else who was struggling got a free ride but me.
The above only illustrates a particular profession, but I think it may also be relevant to a whole ethnic group. Would Indians still be attributed the same level of Model-Minoritiness if say, Tim Mcveigh or the Colorado kids where of Indian origin?
tim mcveigh already was “indian origin,” many times over. it was called 9/11.
I know you’re “not a newbie,” though I fail to see what that has to do with anything — I’ve been reading these pages for awhile myself. And even if there are some liberal assholes around here, so what? There have been some conservative assholes around here too. You can choose to bait them with your preemptive cheap shots, or you can choose to ignore them, elevate the discussion, and engage with people who are more respectful in their willingness to engage with you openly and on the merits. What would your reaction be if liberals engaged conservatives on the assumption that they were all like Ann Coulter (or pick some other caustic right-winger, if you prefer)?
And I never called any of your arguments “insulting, baiting, defensive, demagogy, suitable for echo chambers” — I only suggested that about the rhetorical cheap shots you have embedded within them. To the contrary, I explicitly said, more than once, that your arguments were interesting ones that are worth taking very seriously. For you to suggest otherwise is a clever rhetorical move, since it reinforces your apparent view that conservatives are aggrieved victims in this world and people who disagree with you are “leftists with third rails” or whatever — but it unfortunately bears no resemblance to reality, at least not the reality of what I had to say.
Now, to return to the merits:
This is the crucial point of your argument, it seems, and yet you continue to sidestep what you mean. Care to elaborate on what you mean here?
“it does and has” happened in the real world — but doesn’t explain the delta in income being reported here.
It’s not just me… quoting Gladwell (and others such as Sowell) from the beginning – “the implication is that the key factor in understanding racial prejudice is not the behavior and attitudes of whites but the behavior and attitudes of blacks—not white discrimination but black culture.”
Examples of cultural elements? Well, there’s the hard work / education priority (derisively referred to as “jewmaicans”) cited earlier. OneUp has had a couple of good comments on other issues. I don’t pretend to know all the relevant elements, but just cuz I can’t fully define it, doesn’t mean I don’t recognize it’s effect on this situation….
I know. But you’re the one bringing the argument here, so it’s you that I’m addressing.
You put this in quote marks so I can’t tell if it is something you agree with or not. But what it expresses is not just problematic because it implies that black people are responsible for anti-black racism, but more importantly because it reduces social and economic fact to “behavior and attitudes” when these are only part of the story, and indeed occur in response to other factors. “behavior and attitudes” = “culture” = “success” is a terribly narrow and dogmatic view of the human experiences.
“It has an effect because I think it has an effect.” Let’s talk facts, not pre-formed opinions and tautologies. As I said earlier, I believe that values and ethics most certainly do matter; as I said earlier, I will go part of the way with you and Sowell. But let’s do it on the basis of facts.
this is a nice discussion. evidence that elevation makes it hard for the trollz scale the heights 🙂 carry on….
true dat. a key law of blogging, well stated.
It would be difficult to get social workers who believe their clients have gotten the raw deal all around to come out and say how many people come into their office with a clear sense of entitlement. You would have to come across a disillusioned social worker to get that side of the story. Someone like my mother.
We might well be quibbling with each other a bit here. First, I’ll take a scholar’s view on the origins of the model minority construct:
Now, at first brush, this statement about the origins of the model minority construct may seem to support what you are saying about its critics. But Vinod, let’s first acknowledge that for at least some of the people advancing that thesis in the 1960s, an explicit, racially motivated comparison to other racial groups was being made. The William Peterson article discussed in the Wikipedia entry contrasted Asian Americans, as the model minority, with “problem minorities” — it doesn’t require much interpretation to make sense of that one. A similar 1960s-era article was even more explicit:
In more recent incarnations, some invocations of the model minority construct have been explicitly used to argue against affirmative action, in much the same manner. So let’s at least acknowledge that some people — including the original exponents of the thesis in the 1960s — have deployed the model minority thesis against other racial groups with explicitly racial motivations. Let’s give that view its due, at least to the extent that it’s warranted.
That having been said, I do think that much, MUCH more often — especially nowadays — the comparisons are more implicit, and are not motivated by racial animus. I assume you agree with that. But if you respond to them in their strongest formulations, rather than their weakest/strawman formulations, none of the critiques of the model minority thesis actually depend upon the assumption that there is a racist motivation lying beneath. The model minority thesis may indeed “serve a political purpose,” and advance a flawed understanding of race, without being racially motivated in the sense of being advanced out of animus or discriminatory intent. The two are simply not dependent upon each other.
Let’s leave intentions and motivations, what you are calling “Type M” arguments, out of it altogether, and ask a more important and directly relevant question — given the comparative way in which it is used to draw conclusions about other racial groups, does the model minority construct concerning the experiences of Asian Americans tell us anything meaningful about African Americans and Latinos, and if so, how meaningful a basis for comparison does it provide? For that matter, does it tell us anything meaningful about Asian Americans themselves?
This is what really matters here — not whether the people who advance the model minority thesis are bigots or part of a vast, white-wing conspiracy, for plainly, that is probably not the case for the very most part. And it is precisely at this point where the model minority-based arguments seem to fall rather flat — at times because of a distorted, misleading, perhaps inaccurate picture of Asian American “success,” and at times by ignoring other variables that contribute to the “outcomes” being measured for different racial groups. (Not, mind you, because I have any “third rails.”) Even if you disagree with me about that, that’s a much more interesting and productive conversation to have.
Finally, I take it that your answer — at least for now, if not at the end of the day — regarding “what is culture” is simply “I know it when I see it“?? Unfortunately, that doesn’t really do much to advance your hypothesis. Your comments about “hard work” and “education priority” seem rooted in stereotype as much as anything else — plenty of people in other racial groups “work hard,” and talking about “education priority” without talking about the capacity to access quality education seems rather incomplete. And how are you proposing to measure any of this? What about other variables — class, for example, or indicators of historic disadvantage — that ought to be thrown in the mix?
I do continue to take your hypothesis seriously — I recognize that it’s intended as a serious claim, not a racist slur on behalf of The Man. But without a plausible and meaningful definition of “culture,” I am to a considerable extent left to wonder what your hypothesis actually is.
Oneup’s treatment on the danger of the “culture” argument underlying the model minority myth hits a raw nerve. I think Johnny Mac & others misunderstand that it may not be the culture itself, but others’ perceptions of the culture and expectations of people (especially kids) who are members of that culture.
Unfortunately those assumptions about my culture made my educational experience a nightmare. From day one my parents fought to ensure that my sister and I were tested for the gifted program and were tracked into advanced classes. I remember trying to get my eigth-grade science teacher to sign off on my adv bio course for high school. He kept saying, “you have to have the proper math background.” My current course load was right in front of his f—in face. When I met w/ my high school counselor to discuss my senior schedule, she questioned my ability to handle 4 APs in a semester. My Chinese-American friend did not get the same question. But then again, maybe it’s not my culture…it’s my race…which some believe is not as important as believed…..hmmmmm.
As far as primary/secondary education is concerned, a black child – who is automatically perceived as a problem b/c of his/her cultural background (instead of a model genius or hard worker), w/o parents who understand how tracking works, who were ignored/sabotaged by the educational system themselves (mistrust), who are overwhelmed due to work hours (and will be villified for NOT being at the PTA mtg) – will suffer b/c of the MMM and his/her lack of success will feed into it.
There is a tendency from within, AND ESPECIALLY FROM WITHOUT, to define “black culture” as encompassing post-Tavis Smiley BET, MTV and the 6:00 news. Hard work and education are valued by ALL communities in the US. I resent any attempt to narrowly define my culture in a stereotypical way devoid of positive attributes. It was an understanding of black culture (and history) that got me through.
Excellent points Oneup, Ansour & Siddartha – thank you. By far this blog has the best treatment of MMM.
I googled “Thomas Sowell” and and here’s an article I came up with.
The culture of the people who were called “rednecks” and “crackers” before they ever got on the boats to cross the Atlantic was a culture that produced far lower levels of intellectual and economic achievement, as well as far higher levels of violence and sexual promiscuity. That culture had its own way of talking, not only in the pronunciation of particular words but also in a loud, dramatic style of oratory with vivid imagery, repetitive phrases and repetitive cadences.
Although that style originated on the other side of the Atlantic in centuries past, it became for generations the style of both religious oratory and political oratory among Southern whites and among Southern blacks–not only in the South but in the Northern ghettos in which Southern blacks settled. It was a style used by Southern white politicians in the era of Jim Crow and later by black civil rights leaders fighting Jim Crow. Martin Luther King’s famous speech at the Lincoln Memorial in 1963 was a classic example of that style.
While a third of the white population of the U.S. lived within the redneck culture, more than 90% of the black population did. Although that culture eroded away over the generations, it did so at different rates in different places and among different people. It eroded away much faster in Britain than in the U.S. and somewhat faster among Southern whites than among Southern blacks, who had fewer opportunities for education or for the rewards that came with escape from that counterproductive culture.
Nevertheless the process took a long time. As late as the First World War, white soldiers from Georgia, Arkansas, Kentucky and Mississippi scored lower on mental tests than black soldiers from Ohio, Illinois, New York and Pennsylvania. Again, neither race nor racism can explain that–and neither can slavery.
The redneck culture proved to be a major handicap for both whites and blacks who absorbed it. Today, the last remnants of that culture can still be found in the worst of the black ghettos, whether in the North or the South, for the ghettos of the North were settled by blacks from the South. The counterproductive and self-destructive culture of black rednecks in today’s ghettos is regarded by many as the only “authentic” black culture–and, for that reason, something not to be tampered with. Their talk, their attitudes, and their behavior are regarded as sacrosanct.
Make of it what you will.
Anyone heard of the Shaker Heights Study by Ogbu?
Anyone heard of the Shaker Heights Study by Ogbu?
yes. fill-in-the-dots, children of middle class blacks were performaning poorly. ogbu said there were strong cultural factors which resulted in lack of success vis-a-vis whites.
Terrific stuff, Pied Piper. That absolutely hits the spot.
Gatamala, your personal narrative is harrowing. Thanks for sharing.
It’s terrible to think of how often that kind of thing happens all over God’s own country. And this on top of all the other pressures faced by kids in the not-so-model minorities.
Very true. Which explains why I’ve kept out of the conversation. Now excuise me while I go watch Ann Coulter debate Al franklin on Hannity and Colmes. Someone’s gotta keep and eye on the Bollocks.
model minority or soft bigotry of low expectations, hmm…..
*First off, teachers who don’t expect the best effort out of each student are not doing their job (note I say effort, make the best effort, kids, it’s not always the outcome but learning the process that prepares you for success. Gag. Okay, you know what I mean).
**Second, er, off, are there any educators reading? Sorry, I haven’t read the whole thread. How do you think you are received by parents if you push the students, these days? I expect a lot out of the medical residents I work with, but there is an increasing culture of what I call ‘punch-cardism’: I punch into work, I punch out of work. Creditialism versus professionalism. The educational system, at least my small corner of it, feeds this. Sad, sad, sad.
***Set the bar high and be gentle if they fall; but don’t forget to set the bar at excellence. Okay, enough platitudes…
Mr. Kobayashi in post #2;
“Setting up a hierarchy of value is to take a very naive view of history indeed. Since when is home ownership the beginning and end of the human dilemma? Americans of all income levels are in existential despair, and yet the number crunchers keep producing figures to assure us that we are the greatest society that ever lived.”
EXCELLENT POINT!!!
Vinod,
If neoclassical economics, which libertarianism is founded upon, is to be methodologically & intellectually robust, it cannot relegate, when convenient, variables as non-economic (ie. culture).
Culture, like identity, is way too fluid to be considered deterministic. From my readings, the literature is essentially reduced to three determinisms, from weakest to strongest- ideas, institutions, interests.
But aren’t ideas and institutions and interests culture? How can an institution not be a part of culture? Why wouldn’t one set of behaviors produce certain outcomes while other behaviors produce other outcomes?
Post Traumatic Slave Syndrome: America’s Legacy of Enduring Injury and Healing.
Leary, who teaches social work at Portland State University, traces the way that both overt and subtle forms of racism have damaged the collective African-American psyche—harm manifested through poor mental and physical health, family and relationship dysfunction, and self-destructive impulses.
Leary adapts our understanding of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder to propose that African Americans today suffer from a particular kind of intergenerational trauma: Post Traumatic Slave Syndrome (PTSS).
The systematic dehumanization of African slaves was the initial trauma, explains Leary, and generations of their descendents have borne the scars. Since that time, Americans of all ethnic backgrounds have been inculcated and immersed in a fabricated (but effective) system of race “hierarchy,” where light-skin privilege still dramatically affects the likelihood of succeeding in American society.
Leary suggests that African Americans (and other people of color) can ill afford to wait for the dominant culture to realize the qualitative benefits of undoing racism. The real recovery from the ongoing trauma of slavery and racism has to start from within, she says, beginning with a true acknowledgment of the resilience of African-American culture.
“The nature of this work,” Leary writes in her prologue, “is such that each group first must see to their own healing, because no group can do another’s work.”
Good point. Let us start with some of the oldest institutions marraige, two parent households etc. I think the Moynihan report had good data to back this up.
Interesting that nobody has noted or commented on this passage from the NYT article:
Complex situation. Inside this purportedly new story, we find elements of a rather old one.
EXCELLENT POINT!!!
I think we are. From my experience (travel or otherwise) what the number crunchers are saying is true. Each number reflects a level of accomplishment, comfort and absence of unnecessary tragedy. Hunger is great cure existential despair. I am not being facetious. All right, I admit, I have only been an American citizen for 8 months.
ok… this is rapidly become a tad circular / repetitive….
In this particular case, the central argument & evidence — from the very beginning of the thread — is that (potentially racist) White approbation isn’t the primary thing holding some back / pushing others forward. It strongly suggest what it might be about the Asians (err.. in this particular case, West Indians) themselves (culture). But the whole thing is most strongly a datapoint about the relative role of these not-completely-defined internal factors vs. the external factor of racism. Quoting Gladwell (again) – “The implication is that the key factor in understanding racial prejudice is not the behavior and attitudes of whites but the behavior and attitudes of blacks—not white discrimination but black culture.”
The Queens/WestIndian data is admittedly far stronger at nullifying a theory (Model Minorities (MM’s)) created by Whites for Racist motives) & less strong at proving an alternate framework (if not race, then what is it? I / Gladwell / Sowell / et. al. contend culture.)
Now I agree that if you’re going to use an alternate definition of MM that’s internally rather than externally applied, then the argument shifts. BUT, the balance of the 3rd party evidence cited in the thread (in volume, directness (Vijay Prasad – “MM is part of the war against blacks”), and independent reputation (Wikipedia)) all lean towards the externally applied label….
Yep, culture’s a tough one to dissect and folks have been trying to for thousands of years (I love, for ex., this exploration from Pericles). I can say, for ex., that folks who derisively refer to others as “Jewmaicans” for their attitudes towards work / education are pretty unlikely to pursue work / education themselves and in turn less likely to climb economic ranks. By contrast, when called a “Hindjew” recently, my sister considered it as a compliment.
But, I consider my post here fruitful if the Racism argument is pushed back a few notches and exploration about “what constitutes Good culture” move forward. I certainly don’t think an academically rigorous definition of Good Culture is a pre-req to taking this step forward…
You’re taking a rather narrow view of what libertarianism is about. FWIW, I agree w/ you that this view is not adequate to explain the real world. BUT, I also contend that it’s the minority view of what libertarianism is all about — most would point to “positive and negative” liberty conceptions before economics as the true wellspring of the philosophy.
Vinod, your argument is becoming more and more confusing with each comment.
If this is the central argument, then you are indeed taking on a straw man — is anyone seriously arguing that “White approbation” is a direct determinant of “success” or “failure”? Sure, some may argue something that sounds like that — but of course there are more robust arguments about the role of race and racism than that, and you do your own argument no favors by failing to take on the most challenging formulations of what you are trying to argue against. In any event, I think you are misunderstanding the nature of the model minority critique. I don’t think that very many people claim that the model minority construct itself is necessarily a direct determinant of success or failure, the only such determinant, or even the most important such determinant — rather, I think the point usually is that the construct reinforces a surrounding discourse about race, stereotypes, and prejudice that may then play out in a variety of other ways in our society, whether directly or indirectly.
At the same time, you continue to offer rather weak support for your own hypothesis. Your claim neglects all kinds of variables — for example, the phenomenon of “white flight” affecting the numbers, as described in the NYT article; the demographics of various immigrant groups themselves, upon arrival in the United States, with respect to class, educational access, and any number of other relevant indicators that may or may not have anything to do with culture. If we hold all other variables equal, what then is the role of race and racism?
In your latest comment, you add only the following:
On the basis of anecdotal accounts of dumb, stray comments about “Jewmaicans” you’re not really going to make generalizations about an entire group’s likelihood of “pursu[ing] work / education,” are you?? I’m not trying to caricature you or distort your position, honestly and truly — I’m just trying to understand, because that is precisely what it sounds like you are saying. I reserve judgment and welcome your clarifying what you meant, but if that is indeed your claim, then the support you offer to back up your claim is just that much weaker.
Well, having a nice little exploration about what constitutes “good culture” certainly might be a decent and worthwhile end in itself, but I didn’t think that was your point. I thought your point was that “culture,” rather than racism, is a causal determinant of “success” or “failure.” And again, if we don’t know what you mean by “culture,” then it’s a bit difficult to establish the causal link you posit — much less (and this is arguably the more important point) establish that racism is not a causal factor. In other words, if you are defining “good” in the phrase “good culture” to mean “a causal determinant of success,” you really give us nothing to go on here. In that case, our discussion of “good culture” will have absolutely nothing to do with what I had assumed to be your argument, because you will not have offered any evidence in support of your argument — all you will have given us is an interesting anecdotal story.
It might still be a worthwhile discussion — I’m all for conversations about good culture. (Some of my best friends are Cultural Studies scholars, and I myself have a particular soft spot for music.) But please, don’t then try to tell us that you’ve successfully “pushed back” the notion that racism plays a causal role, because you haven’t done anything of the sort.
Besides, even if you did give us a plausible definition of the “cultural” attributes you hypothesize as causal, you still wouldn’t have done anything of the sort. In the messy real world, things like “success” and “failure” invariably have multiple causes — calling attention to the potential relevance of “culture” does not at all, by itself, establish anything about whether racism does or does not play a role. For one thing, both variables could independent play a causal role. For another, the variables could interact with each other in all kinds of interesting ways — for example (and I’m making this up on the spot, which seems like it may be good enough for the purposes of this discussion), if “good culture” is dependent upon access to education, and access to education for some groups is impeded by racism, then you will have established… very little.
And, alas, that’s exactly how I feel about your arguments as well…. Lets just say we’re at an impasse and get on with our regularly scheduled lives 😉
I’m surprised that no one has brought up the race riots of Tulsa, OK of 1921 and Rosewood, FL of 1922. Those were two examples of black success that were destroyed by white supremacists.
I don’t want to put words into anybody’s mouth, but some people think that plight of blacks was brought solely and entirely on themselves, which I disagree.
The black neighborhood in Tulsa, Oklahoma was like the Silicon Valley of the ’20s. The black families were invested in oil, due to the oil boom in Tulsa. Imagine an entire black neighborhood full of Oprahs, Bill Cosbys and Magic Johnsons. The black families in Rosewood, Florida were very well-to-do also. The reason why I brought these two places up, was because both towns (particularly the black neighborhoods) were destroyed by bigoted white citizens who lived in poorer neighborhoods, compare to their richer black counterparts. And yet somehow, the white rioters raped, pillaged and burned down the houses and property of the black citizenry in Tulsa with impunity, because they thought any black person, individually and/or collectively, that lived better than they were, was going against the laws of God and Man.
Imagine living in the Roaring ’20s, with nothing but prosperity. You’re a white male, born and raised the USA, taught that you’re the cream of the crop, and everyone else is beneath you. End of World War I, can’t find a job. You know the white population aren’t hiring black folks, but hard to find a job…yet the black population in your town of Tulsa, are living high on the hog. How can this happen? People that many folks believe as the scum of the earth, are living BETTER than you.
I would not be surprised that some neocons think the same way of some of these rap artists and (some) black pro athletes…”How dare those ‘n—–s’ have more wealth than I do. I deserve that, not them.”
There’s two proofs of blacks (as a group) doing well, without anyone blaming affirmative action. The thing is, when there’s more than one or two black individuals do very well, it gets scary. Jealousy spreads like kudzu on a summer lawn, and heaven forbid if there are more and more wealthier minorities.
There’s so much more I could write, but I’ll wait for the responses.
Huey, that was what I was getting at when I was talking about black people having very real reasons from the recent past to believe trying hard isn’t worth it.
Let me clarify my stance:
I think that black people need to work on certain aspects of our culture. Namely, our value system. We need to relearn the value of hard work now that most of the obstacles that stopped us in the past have been removed.
Even so, I LOVE my culture. There are so many things that we do that are unique to us. The thing is, many people (including blacks) don’t really realize what our culture is. Black people (IMO) spend a lot of time trying to look to the distant past to find our future. And theres nothing wrong with that… but we do it so much that we can’t see the value of the culture we’ve created in America. And as a result, we have difficulty valuing ourselves as we are… leading to a variety of destructive behavior.
As far as I’m concerned, my “homeland,” my “country” is the american south. My language is AAVE. My food is soul. My school system a history of AMAZING HBCUs.
Black culture is not uniquely f***ed up. But we have a lot to work on… just like everybody else.
Oneup,
I very much agree with you that there’s a vibrant black culture with many if not more cultural practices that are in use as any other ethnicity. If you go through a list of cultural markers; the number of markers that are active within the black community are as numerous, if not more than in other communities. For anyone to say different is seemingly to miss the reality of the situation. this is particularly evident to me in the rise of Atlanta as a place that African Americans are moving to.
Of course, you are the one to tell me about this but I can correlate from my limited experience to what you are saying. I also think its very ironic to lament the lack of black work ethic as if this is something inherent in the community, given that the Great Migration itself was a function of African American people moving en masse to Northern factory towns. People don’t seem to connect history sometimes
Vinod —
Okay, but before we do that, indulge me by answering the question I posed earlier:
According to Gladwell, these comments were made in the early 1900s, during the first wave of Caribbean migration. Gladwell does not tell us how prevalent such comments were or otherwise elaborate upon them. Nor does he make the suggestion that I read you to be making about African Americans more generally, whether in the early 1900s or today. Rather, he notes the comments in a different context, to make a different point altogether (about Caribbean immigrants, not about the individuals who supposedly made those comments or the broader racial or ethnic communities of which they are members).
By contrast, you discuss Gladwell’s references to “Jewmaicans” in a very different way than he does, in response to my question about your definition of “culture.” So with that in mind, what are you trying to say about the relevance of Gladwell’s discussion of those comments to African American “culture,” either in the early 1900s or, more importantly, now? Or am I misunderstanding your point? It’s not a rhetorical question — as I mentioned before, I reserve judgment on what you were trying to say, and I’d welcome the clarification.
Thanks Sahej! I wonder if anyone here has seen Drumline? I LOVE this movie… its a bit corny at points, but I think it does a good job of showing various aspects of black culture and how thing diverge from mainstream white american culture. It also shows how different black american ideas of success can be, which was touched upon earlier in this thread. For instance, many upper middle class black people view a college like Howard or Hampton U as being far superior to any harvard, yale, or oxford…
To add: I too hope to make my home in ATL one day.
Aren’t West Indians of East Indian descent, despite their African ancestry? Would that not make them desi?
Aren’t West Indians of East Indian descent, despite their African ancestry? Would that not make them desi?
Of course they’re desis. I don’t know why they can only claim one ethnicity and not the other. When will this black-desi animosity cease? What is the big deal really? Black folks have been in the Western Hemisphere for over 500 years; we can’t be THAT much of a mystery.
Oneup – some of those schools are probably better in many aspects 🙂
Little known fact about long-time commenter MD: I interviewed at Meharry for med school years ago. Didn’t get in, went to Iowa.
One_up said: “Unfortunately, no one in the black community denounced the new stuff [hip hop] coming out as fake.”
That is utterly and completely false. I don’t even understand how you got that idea. You must deliberately insulate yourself with a really, really narrow group of conservatives or something. Watch the documentary “Beyond Beats and Rhymes”. read what most scholars in AfrAm have to say on the topic. Look up how the women of Spelman college rejected a visit from the rapper Nelly. Mainstream corporate hip-hop’s biggest consumers are white boys. And white men control the companies that put the records out there. There is money to be made in promoting negative images of African Americans. If you’re the kind of person who reads McWhorter, I’m guessing you don’t go out of your way to find independent, progressive hip-hop.
This entire thread, revolving around tired notions of African American inferiority, makes me ill. Yeah, Asians have the bestest values in the whole wide world! Rah, rah rah.\end sarcasm.
Another point – while there is no shortage of awful hate crimes in Queens, some of these American browns, who are mostly clustered around the tri-state and California need to get a reality check and realize that there are whole swaths of the country that they’ve never ventured to and never plan to.
Browns wouldn’t have squat in this country if it weren’t for the Civil Rights movement. Again, people need to understand that the term “culture” is highly problematic and vague, and stop foolishly disregarding how class forms people’s ideas about race. Most Asian immigrants who came during the 70’s wave already had advanced degrees.
On a separate note, I have to ask why Sepia Mutiny mods threaten to ban a commenter who advocated multi-lingualism (she/he wanted people to know more languages than just English), but let another commenter repeatedly make comments openly condoning rape and trying to argue that men just have their urges. Every visit to this blog leaves me with the feeling of being deluged with complete nastiness. Since this is such a high-traffic blog, it disturbs me to think that this might represent a cross-section of my supposed community.
We don’t ban for such ridiculous reasons. Do you have a link? Is it possible that you don’t know the entire story re: the commenter you are standing up for, i.e. they were abusive elsewhere/it got deleted/this was the final warning?
This is a purely volunteer-driven endeavor. Everyone has a full-time job. If there is an instance which seems inconsistent with regards to banning, it’s probably a result of that simple truth and not whatever wicked double-standard you are imagining.
Again, do you have a link? One of this blog’s most memorable collective experiences involves a memoir about someone being raped; so no one here would condone such a vile act. It sounds like you are going out of your way to make us sound evil because YOU are upset about what some random commenter wrote.
patient: Doctor, it hurts when I do this (pokes self in eye)
doctor: Then don’t do that.
You know what? I just noticed the DATE on this post. It’s nearly a year old. You do have some axe to grind.
Yuz beez rihtz! us niggras bez blamin whity and thee woe times it bez us…
I personally believe education IS more expensive in the West Indies. However, I am NOT all too sure this is the complete case in India.With that said both “culture” and “race/systemic factor” play a part-with race/systemic factors to me being the stronger factors. On the one hand, I do not rule out hard work/education for being a factor in the success of groups precisely because our past accomplishments happened in spite of the racism/economic inequality and other barriers.Although much of the black community was in poverty THEN despite hard work/education.Other “systemic” problems in addition to racism could account for this then.Nevertheless, there are plenty of people-including black people- that are working poor that work one/two/three low-wage/non-upward mobility Mcjobs with side hustles(petty capitalist enterprises to boot-see Sudhir Venkatesh’s book Ghetto Capitalism on this-a man that is not black or white but an East Indian immigrant);and occasionally folks with some college education that are still languishing in poverty. Speaking of black people with a college education and no criminal record for that matter,even with a degree and no record they STILL have a harder time attaining employment than a white person with just/without a high school degree and a criminal record.When you put these two phenomenon together you see the cause of some of the economic strains in the community. Also another observation that influences my opinion that “race/systemic factors account for more” is the general decline I see of the standard of living amongst the middle class in this country from the downward mobility of alot of its members. Third, I am aware that there are a lot of Asian professionals and businessmen that are successful but speaking of Asian businessman- these businesses like other ones generally depend on cheap labor-and they used their conpatriots for very cheap labor(often cheaper than native labor) who sometimes outnumber the business folks at least 2:1; and in some of these cases, those workers being paid cheap are not living well since sometimes ethnic business can’t always pay much as the average American business(although many of these undercut their workers too whether native/foreign). Speaking of cheap Asian labor, I was not talking about the sweatshop workers you see, I was referring to the low-wage restaurant workers you do see. But either way you look at it, these segments of workers do not have a high standard of living-and in the Case of contemporary Chinese immigrant workers for example they have a hard time despite the fact that they have some IN TACT ethnic institutions to fall on. As a matter of fact, according to Peter Kwong in the book Forbidden Workers and various articles, those ethnic institutions that people depend on for social capital, like ROSCA’s are not as resilient as they used to be partly because the dire economic conditions these immigrants face that are constantly worsening coupled with the general downturn in the economy,globalization,outsourcing,the shutdowns of factories, technological changes and other factors as a whole. Which shows that hard work, education, and social capital alone is NOT always THE key to success or a panacea for widespread economic problems.Basically, I feel that folks suffering do not help themselves when they do not try to work hard, get their education, or revive their social capital but these strategies alone should not be seen as a panacea to systemic economic social problems. Nor should these strategies be used to ignore the for protest/action against economic inequality or social injustice. So for a segment African Americans that resent successful Asians but over downplay personal effort, stop overdownplaying these strategies and use these strategies to your advantage when you don’t; and for Asians that overglorify the model minority myth and endorse the belief of Black/Latino inferiority, know that there alot of people-African American, Latino, Asian, Arab or Jewish, White and Native American that still languish in poverty despite having high school diplomas or some college in some cases, one or two jobs, a side micro enterprise hustle, and no criminal record. All “problem minorities” and what’s considered failures; and all “model minorities” aren’t what’s considered successes. But, personally, I think what is deemed success/failure in the American context anyway is NOT WITHOUT FLAWs. Personally, it is a miracle that as many people survived in U.S. industrial society.