On Sunday Salon.com published a very provocative article about Sen. George Allen of “Macaca” fame (thanks for the tip Subodh and “Sparky“). To those people who have been defending him, including members of the Indian American Republican Council (IARC) and some Indian American business men in Virginia, I am sure this story will be of interest:
Three former college football teammates of Sen. George Allen say that the Virginia Republican repeatedly used an inflammatory racial epithet and demonstrated racist attitudes toward blacks during the early 1970s.
“Allen said he came to Virginia because he wanted to play football in a place where ‘blacks knew their place,'” said Dr. Ken Shelton, a white radiologist in North Carolina who played tight end for the University of Virginia football team when Allen was quarterback. “He used the N-word on a regular basis back then.”
A second white teammate, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because he feared retribution from the Allen campaign, separately claimed that Allen used the word “nigger” to describe blacks. “It was so common with George when he was among his white friends. This is the terminology he used,” the teammate said.
A third white teammate contacted separately, who also spoke on condition of anonymity out of fear of being attacked by the Virginia senator, said he too remembers Allen using the word “nigger,” though he said he could not recall a specific conversation in which Allen used the term. “My impression of him was that he was a racist,” the third teammate said. [Link]
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p>Here is one more tidbit:
Shelton said he also remembers a disturbing deer hunting trip with Allen on land that was owned by the family of Billy Lanahan, a wide receiver on the team. After they had killed a deer, Shelton said he remembers Allen asking Lanahan where the local black residents lived. Shelton said Allen then drove the three of them to that neighborhood with the severed head of the deer. “He proceeded to take the doe’s head and stuff it into a mailbox,” Shelton said. [Link]
I am interested of course in what these former teammates have to say about Allen as it has bearing on the whole “macaca” incident. However, I am equally blown away by how similar this is to when former Presidential candidate John Kerry got “swift-boated” during the 2004 campaign. At that time it was some of Kerry’s former Vietnam war comrades that cast aspersions on his character from their interaction with him decades before. Here it is Allen’s former teammates on the UVA Cavaliers. Are we about to see political karma played out before our eyes? Another Presidential hopeful’s ambitions thwarted? I am going to predict so. Many macacas are known for their belief in karma after all. 🙂
AMJ, here.
72 This is due to, I believe the highly educated and well off residents in northern va(dc area). this area isn’t made up of mostly native southerners I believe. it’s also not considered “the south” by the inhabitants and in general generally i think. of course i guess the latter may only hold true for people who know about northern va. of course you might know all this. also don’t forget the democrats were considered the racist party pre civil rights era (hope I got it right). this country has a racist history. isn’t just modern repubs. also the north can be racist too. i mean people complain about racism all over the country. i doubt black people are saying it’s all hunky dory in detroit or boston. isn’t boston supposeed to be really racist? now i wouldn’t want to live in the rural south or even the south really (grew up in MD). maybe a highly educated area. im just saying it’s not all one-sided.
also brooklyn brown would you mind describing where u grew up. ie what region of state, size of town, demographics of populace. just curious.
disclaimer: not as smart/informed as the posters here. so just to cover this or any follow up responses i may have, i am admitting to stupidity or most anything else youse guys can dish out. this is assuming someone actually responds to this.
SO RAZIB, HOW’S THE VACATION? ARE YOU GOING THROUGH SM WITHDRAWAL PAINS? HAVE YOU COMMENCED REPLACING ONE ADDICTION WITH ANOTHER?
oh, and my point isn’t that you are trying to use that fact to forward some specific point, but that disputable background facts abound. when right-wingers bring their talking points to the table they get torn down by a thousand cuts really quickly. not as common on the left, unless you are saying something negative about hindutva. just the nature of the game around these parts….
SO RAZIB, HOW’S THE VACATION? ARE YOU GOING THROUGH SM WITHDRAWAL PAINS? HAVE YOU COMMENCED REPLACING ONE ADDICTION WITH ANOTHER?
dude, wutz up with the skreeming? 🙂 i’m back at work.
just to be clear, not being on the computer & working on a weekend counts as vacation for me.
105. oops sorry. generally don’t do that. guess i wanted the q’s to stand out.
Abhi:
Wow. Nice parsing. Very Clintonesque.
BrooklynBrown in #73
The KKK bomb threatened your family in the 80s?
Wow. Those things still go on?
Aren’t they afraid of being taken to court and sued or something?
It’s hard to believe that post 60s anything of that sort from the KKK would take place.
They must not realize the world they live in.
Comment # 109
Don’t you dare put Brooklynbrown in a spot. Just buy what he says.
allen camp responds to the salon article.
I can’t imagine someone would lie about such a thing. I’d like to hear more about it if Brooklyn Brown would elaborate and the admins would tolerate a litte detour.
46: Is anyone really shocked? A white male in the south was raised in a racist society, turned out to be a racist!
I never said he was raised in the south, just that he’s there now. It’s not exactly a stereotype, anti black sentiment is much stronger and widely accepted, historically, in those states. So, someone living in those regions would be more prone to a more overt, explicit form of racism, ie the incidents quoted in the initial post.
Perhaps I should utilize the “blah blah” strategy, where by one takes the opposing arguments and replace every other word with blah blah. You left out one crucial fact however, I’m a funny motherfcker, that’s what HMF stands for… Hilarious Mother Fcker.
It’s not exactly a stereotype, anti black sentiment is much stronger and widely accepted, historically, in those states.
it is a stereotype. it just happens to be true.
‘I can’t imagine someone would lie about such a thing.’
There’s lying and then there’s making a mountain out of a molehill.
BrooklynBrown in #73
The KKK bomb threatened your family in the 80s?
Yes.
Wow. Those things still go on?
Yes.
Aren’t they afraid of being taken to court and sued or something?
It’s hard to believe that post 60s anything of that sort from the KKK would take place.
You live in a bubble of your own choosing. Honestly, evidence about hate crimes happen all the time.
They must not realize the world they live in.
They realize all too well the world they live in.
wilted, you can buy it or not; it makes no difference to me. I certainly don’t feel on the spot. It’s my history. It’s what my family had to deal with. You’re a bunch of pixels on my screen. Why in the world would I care what you think? I lived in a small Appalachian coal-mining town. Bomb threats happened in ’82 and ’83.
Sorry for the threadjack. I only brought up that fact because despite how my family was treated by some people in the South, we were also treated very well by others.
Very convincing indeed! I stand by comment # 115.
Jilted –
out of curiosity, what kind of “proof” would placate your disbelief?
this is completely unrelated, but did anyone notice how two posts have UVa references? I am a regular reader of this blog and a UVa student, so am thrilled in a wierd way that you guys are talking about it! Wahoowa!
“Yeah, “family values” has also a fatherf***ing codeword for many things in the past.”
Kurma with the fatherers and HMF with the motherers reminds me of the anthropologist discussing curse word patterns in the Balkans…”where they stop fing mothers and start fing fathers.” What does this have to do with Allen? Hey–words we don’t say in polite society. Of course curse words don’t mean anything and racist terms do, but I couldn’t resist it. Allen should have the option of publicly washing his mouth out with soap (great theater) and then apologizing to those whom he has wronged. It’d really be funny with bubbles coming out his mouth. Then he could do community service in an ashram. There is a really good one in southern Virginia and the yoga positions they put you through in those places stop just short of the inhumane. Then he could try again maybe.
Abhi, Three comments :
Another Presidential hopefulÂ’s ambitions thwarted? I am going to predict so. Many macacas are known for their belief in karma after all. 🙂 First, you haven’t countered Manju’s essential point on the fundamental “Tu Quoque” error in your agument.
However, I am equally blown away by how similar this is to when former Presidential candidate John Kerry got “swift-boated” during the 2004 campaign. At that time it was some of Kerry’s former Vietnam war comrades that cast aspersions on his character from their interaction with him decades before. Here it is Allen’s former teammates on the UVA Cavaliers. Are we about to see political karma played out before our eyes?
Second, you are mistaken in deploying the concept of karma here since it would indicate vengefulness or hypocrisy (“Two wrongs don’t make a right”) on the part of Hinduism.
You have indicated before that you are a Deist. I don’t know if this is still the case, but if you have indeed rejected all sources of religious authority, including Hindu ones, then perhaps you should not interpret Hinduism on behalf of the Hindus. That would be like saying, “Rev. Jerry Falwell has a problem with homosexuals because Jesus himself was gay, and Christianity has never wanted to admit it.”
Third, I would be interested in knowing from you your definition of karma.
Dude don’t be such a literalist. I was making a tongue-in-cheek comment about how similar this is, at it’s surface, to the swiftboat incident. Thus the “:)” at the end of my sentence which I don’t just throw in willy-nilly into all my posts. You can relax in knowing that I haven’t insulted Hindus world-wide.
Manju’s point about what I had written had nothing to do with Tu Quoque. He can lecture me on the fact that two wrongs don’t make a right and that I should take pleasure in Allen’s downfall. That’s fine. I was not however, using the fallacy to debate in my arguments like he was (and like Vikram was).
Abhi, Dude don’t be such a literalist. Literalism is the root of evil, Mr. Deist? 🙂 I myself am somewhat inclined to that point of view, so I won’t complain.
You might be interested in the following reading of karma : [Karma] is the active principle of the play, the total universe in action, where everything is dynamically connected with everything else. In the words of the Gita, ‘Karma is the force of creation, wherefrom all things have their life.’
The meaning of karma, like that of maya, has been brought down from its original cosmic level to the human level where it has acquired a psychological sense. As long as our view of the world is fragmented, as long as we are under the spell of maya and think that we are separated from our environment and can act independently, we are bound by karma.
The book is, of course, the Tao of Physics. Such an interpretation of karma and maya is consistent with theories of quantum matter and phenomena. If you interpret it in the psychological sense, that is, that personal actions could have consequences down the line, I would suggest not to bind up karma as a law (which it is not) that applies to others. It is merely a guideline that ought to be interpreted as applying to oneself.
Hey, I wasn’t tu quoqing. I bought up clinton to bolster the case agaisnt allen, not negate it (and i was defending hillary). Read post 7. I report, you decide.
I was, however, aware that I would annoy liberals like abhi, but hey I’m a political animal and don’t hide it. I take the response as grudging acceptance that clinton’s alledged sexism is like allen’s alledged racism. After all, one’s eyes always roll a bit when you have to look the other way.
I’ve read the book. I enjoyed it except for one problem. Much of the physics in there is flawed and outdated. The Tao is still good though.
I don’t get annoyed by right-wingers like you. I just like to call you out on your bs and see you exposed for the animals you are. 🙂
Tashie:
I was taught that rape and sexual harrassment were about power, not sex. But, you know, that may be too simplsitic and apparently you deviate from this theory. I’m open to alternatives.
Much of the physics in there is flawed and outdated. Much of it? That is certainly an interesting take on the book.
Correct me if I am wrong but as I recall the book was written in the late 60s. Quantum Physics has come a long way. If anything it is more mind blowing now.
Correct me if I am wrong but as I recall the book was written in the late 60s. Quantum Physics has come a long way. If anything it is more mind blowing now.
It is later than that. It was published in 1975. I read this a while back, and my knowledge of physics is at the level of a few years of college-level physics, so I can’t comment on the details. However, the physics as presented there, if I recall, is correct, even if there have been further developments since then.
Here is what Amazon.com has to say about the book : First published in 1975, The Tao of Physics rode the wave of fascination in exotic East Asian philosophies. Decades later, it still stands up to scrutiny, explicating not only Eastern philosophies but also how modern physics forces us into conceptions that have remarkable parallels. Covering over 3,000 years of widely divergent traditions across Asia, Capra can’t help but blur lines in his generalizations. But the big picture is enough to see the value in them of experiential knowledge, the limits of objectivity, the absence of foundational matter, the interrelation of all things and events, and the fact that process is primary, not things.
Another point I would like to make is that Hinduism itself has moved on. Hinduism itself has changed having been influenced by Western philosophy of the 19th century and thereafter. I would definitely not expect to read such a reading of karma in, say, the Op Ed pages of the Hindu. If I did, I would assume that the writer was being sarcastic about the whole notion of ‘karma’. It would not be very progressive of Hindu to use the word ‘karma’ that way, and a whole bunch of people would probably jump in and tell them exactly that.
I can see that Abhi is not using the term literally, but if this were used in a newspaper, I think, for some people, it might reinforce their own irrational beliefs. Maybe there is no escaping that. It kind of reminds me of this letter in this week’s Time magazine : Your story explained that even though light was created at the Big Bang, there was darkness before stars formed. Likewise, the first chapter of Genesis states that God created light before he created the stars, and separated light from darkness in the interim.
Hmmm… funny thing, this ellipsis of other relevant text. As for instance, “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.” before the text on God creating light.
Not too many years ago, some people said the Bible’s account of the beginning could not be true … Now your article has shown how it could be true. Science has once again caught up with the Bible.
I would instead say that Christianity has moved on.
This story is now in the NYT.
Have no interest in delving deeper or defending/criticizing the Somalia issue. But I noticed no one picked this up, and just couldn’t let this slide by. It is often forgotten that H.W. Bush was the one who first sent troops to Somalia toward the end of his term. The situation was basically handed down to Clinton when he came into office.
Back to happily lurking
The evidence mounts. The New Republic found a graduate student in anthropology before whom Allen used the n-word.
I do find the hand wringing about these mere “allegations” by some of the ideologically driven doubters (and Allen himself) rather amusing.
Confederate-flag fetish from high school through at least his governorship? Youthful indiscretion. He says he understands history now; even made a pilgrimage to Selma. Never mind that the civil-rights movement was going on while he was growing up.
Photo with known white supremacist group? Maybe he didn’t know (FYI, there are no such photos of me with white-supremacist leaders).
Opposed the Martin Luther King, Jr. holiday? Policy difference. Hard worker. Doesn’t believe in holidays.
“Macaca?” Didn’t know what it meant–just a coincidence, really. Pay no attention to his French-Tunisian mom and his fluency in French.
Outburst in a debate at being asked if he’s Jewish? He just found out from his mom and was trying to protect her. Pay no attention to the fact that an Associated Press reporter wrote about the heritage years ago and Allen demanded a retraction.
People who knew him when he was in college and even early in his career say he used the n-word? They must be lying. Because these other people never heard him say it to them. And after all, he’s a paragon of tolerance and inclusion. I once saw him with a brown person at an ethnic rally! And the IARC is behind him 100%!
This is all beginning to remind me of the global-warming “debate.” Some people will only believe it when they are personally under boiling water. Evidence is all relative, after all.
Mr. Kobayashi, my wife and I have been laughing out loud at your pithy comments, e.g., “the end of the innocence,” “Kavita, why do you hate freedom?” Please keep ’em comin’!
From Subobh’s TNR link:
“I don’t remember ever using that word and it is absolutely false that that was ever part of my vocabulary,”
Ever since the Clinton scandals, I’ve learnt to watch for carefully worded denials. The inclusion of the word “remember” is suspicious, as if he’s afraid there may be some tape out there and he needs to maintian plausable denial.
Thanks Subodh.
I almost want to say “I aim to please,” but if I do that, some clever macaca will dig up something I said in the past (and he/she won’t have to dig deep) and prove me wrong.
Warmest greetings to the three little
IndiansAmericans.In law-enforcement training, we were taught to look for signs of deception like that in witness statements. It does jump out.
Yet another person, this one a Republican operative, comes out to report racism and n-word activity by Allen:
http://www.capitolhillblue.com/content/2006/09/george_allens_r.html
Professor Larry Sabato of the University of Virginia–an oft-quoted nonpartisan political pundit–went to college with Allen too. He said flatly on Hardball that Allen used the n-word. There is no more credible first-hand source than Professor Sabato.
http://www.raisingkaine.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=4722
i was surprised by the affect Maccaca-gate had since it really didn’t reach the MSM and the pertinent fact of his mother’s french-tunisian background was not widely reported. But w/ the NYtimes picking up the N****r-gate, I think a feeding frenzy will follow and allen is toast.
Webb may have a problem w/ sexism and anti-semitism, but such bigotry is more tolerated. Allen just touched a third rail. Hope he goes down.
Here we go again. It’s like watching a magician once you know how he does all his tricks.
Clinton had tricks too.
Had. snigger
Some comedian explained inflation thus: “When Kennedy was President in the 60s, he could get Marilyn Monroe. When Clinton was President in the 90s, all he got was Monica Lewinsky”.
Subodh —
The Noose, Subodh!! Don’t forget the Noose — just “memorabilia“:
So easy to see bigotry in others, so hard to see it in ourselves. Keep giving the IARC company, Abbhi.
Some humor: Senator George Allen Plans to Un-Jew Himself Before Jewish Day of Atonement!
= ad hominem attack
This is awesome. It’s like a free clinic in how not to debate someone.
You don’t get it, Abhi. We’re not debating. We’re in agreement. I’m just not making it easy on you. But stay away from those free clinics, socialism never works and Dr. Raghavendra Vijayanagar practices there. You got enough in common with him as it is.
It would suck to be a Virginian in November. One one hand you have Allen. On the other hand, you have Webb. I think the allegations of sexism against Webb are pretty serious as well. We are not talking here about Clinton and his private indiscretions. Webb was the navy secretary and had the ability to influence/shape policy. From that position of authority he made some pretty evil remarks and he bears responsibility for the harassment faced by some women in that period.
I love how Republicans have operatives and Democrats have activists…..btw, did anyone see Deval Patrick debate in Mass last night? Now that is one nice Democrat. I am being totally serious, he has an utterly lovely demeanor. Charming. Too bad the jobs and people will keep bleeding from Mass…… De-lurker: Clinton may have inherited Somalia, but the buck stops at the Oval office. Anyway, it started out as a humanitarian thing, then morphed to a ‘nation-building’ thing and was complicated. I’m not actually criticizing Clinton. The world is a messy place with tough choices to make. Let me spell it out for you: when a rightie on this site supports a candidate, they then become responsible for all the good and bad. When a leftie supports a candidate on this site, they are somehow only responsible for the good. That’s what I’m talkin’ about…..
Hel* will now freeze over because I agree with Al M’s comment above #149. I’m not sure how much of an anti-woman person Webb is, I haven’t read enough about it to feel comfortable with that part, he had done his service for this country and has much to be proud of. I just mean, between the two, there isn’t one I would feel comfortable voting for. Write in candidate!