For many of us this site is a place where we can explore the desi experience, not just as it plays out in news or culture, but also on a personal level. As a community we are coherent but not cohesive, united by a diasporic experience but keen to its many variations. What it means to be desi is still very much under negotiation, which is good: it means that we haven’t congealed, nor been taken over by ideological disputes or anointed leaders. This, combined with tools like the Internet which previous diasporas did not enjoy, has helped to keep the conversation open, generally productive, and most important of all, conducive to sharing personal experience.
For some of us, the idea of being desi comes with self-questioning built in, because we are of mixed race and ethnicity, products of unions where one partner was desi, the other not. I know there are a lot of people who read this site who belong to this group, and many more who are having, or are likely to have, mixed children. Among the regulars here who identify as both mixed and desi, the most outspoken in the past year have been DesiDancer and myself in the U.S. as well as Bong Breaker in the U.K.
Recently DesiDancer (portrayed here as a young macaca) and I began a conversation that aims to explore the experience of being a mixed desi in America today. It is also a blog experiment: A different format than usual, and a new way of engaging the many people here who have been so generous and thoughtful in sharing their stories. We are corresponding by IM and editing the transcripts for coherence and pace. And by making it a series, we can absorb your responses to each instalment as we prepare the next.
Today, in “Gettin’ Down with the Brown,” we talk about how we came to identify as desi when we had the choice of not doing so. Later we’ll discuss the ways we — and others — live, deploy, engage our “desi” and “mixed” identities in the world today. Whether you are mixed yourself, or the (potential) parent of mixed kids, or neither, your responses will help shape the discussion. (You may also share thoughts in confidence with either of us.)
So, here goes:DesiDancer: “Dude, you look so exotic… what are you?”
Siddhartha: Exotic, eh? Like you, I’m mixed. My dad is Bengali, and my mother is Jewish American. That’s why I am so “fair.” My aunties in Calcutta always liked my skin color, the fact that it was achieved through miscegenation didn’t appear to concern them.
DesiDancer: Do you know of any other mixed marriages in your family?
Siddhartha: My uncle married a westerner. He is my dadÂ’s only sibling, and older by a few years. He married an Italian woman. It was a little complicated for them, in terms of approval and how they handled it, and my grandmother wasnÂ’t too thrilled. But it ended up paving the way for my parentsÂ’ marriage. Beyond that, I think pretty much everyone else in my Indian family married Indian. I have a female cousin who married a guy who is half-Indian, half-German. They live in Delhi. What about you and your family?
DesiDancer: My dadÂ’s uncle came to the US, several years before Dad did. My uncle met an American woman — I believe at the university — and they got married a few years before my Dad came over. Again, it sort of paved the way for my Dad because when my parents got married it wasnÂ’t something totally new. I donÂ’t know how supportive or unsupportive my DadÂ’s family was… they were always fantastic to me, but IÂ’d be naive if I didnÂ’t suspect there was some talk behind my parentsÂ’ backs. IÂ’m sure it wasnÂ’t easy for them, but then again we lived here, and the family lived in India. As for my generation of the family, weÂ’ll see how it plays out — the cousins in India are all marrying Indian, but the cousins here seem to have a wider perspective when it comes to dating.
Siddhartha: ThatÂ’s an interesting similarity. How big an (Indian) family do you have here in the U.S.? I just have my sister — there are some more distant cousins but IÂ’m not really in touch with them. I guess I should ask how big your MomÂ’s family is in the U.S. as well, since I think you told me your mom was not originally American, but naturalized?
DesiDancer: Up until a few years ago, I thought the only family here from DadÂ’s side was us, and the aforementioned uncleÂ’s family. A few months after I went to India in 2002, I got an email from one of my uncles there. His English is a bit disjointed, so all I could understand was that someone in our family was coming to the US… or something like that. Turns out my dadÂ’s cousin was living in the US, with her family, and theyÂ’d been here for YEARS! So we reconnected, and they introduced me to the rest of the family. Technically all of my cousins here are from my DadÂ’s cousinÂ’s husbandÂ’s side (does that make sense?) but it doesnÂ’t really matter to any of us — weÂ’re more like siblings than anything else. So now I think I could count about 8 cousins, in the rediscovered family, and 3 sets of aunts and uncles. We lost our grandfather last year, but there were 4 generations living here — and unbeknownst to me. My momÂ’s family is in Canada and some are in the US, but thereÂ’s such a huge age gap between me and my cousins on that side… I think itÂ’s 14 years between me and the next oldest (not counting my brother and sister, of course). How about you — is there a lot of family from your momÂ’s side here?
Siddhartha: There is, but IÂ’m not close to that many of them. My cousins are a lot younger than me. A similar situation. Then you get to second cousins and whatnot. I guess what this makes me realize is that IÂ’ve always lived mixedness my own way, by improvisation; I was never part of a “mixed” self-identified community, let alone one with my particular mix. All this being underscored by the fact that I spent most of my childhood years in a third country that was neither my momÂ’s nor my dadÂ’s — France — and further, that I am a bit older than the big wave of desi Americans, since I was born in 1967. So itÂ’s always been a bit of a solo thing, shared only by my sister.
DesiDancer: I was actually just going to ask you that: how did you and your sister identify with your heritage? My brother and sister donÂ’t seem to identify as “mixed” or “Indian”… and itÂ’s never really something weÂ’ve had much dialogue about. I think part of it may be the age differences, and part of it I think might be because I went to India when I was 2, whereas they never went… I wonder if somehow it made such an impression on me that I felt somehow more impelled to get down with my brownÂ…
Siddhartha: Yes, you do seem to be more “down with your brown” than I think I am. But then again, we know each other from SM, which is a place where people are doing just that, so itÂ’s hard to judge. But… I think weÂ’ve always thought of ourselves as Indian, or at least semi-Indian. We too both got to go to India at a young age, I was 6 the first time I went, and she was 1 or 2 the first time she did. On the other hand, we didnÂ’t have any kind of Indian community around us outside of India. We just had what came through my parents, which was my dadÂ’s Hindustani classical music collection, my momÂ’s immersion in learning to cook Indian food, my dadÂ’s general politics and, dare I say, patriotism (he still has just his Indian passport to this day), and the trips back. So there are tons of things I had no exposure to whatsoever. To this day I donÂ’t know a damn thing about Bollywood, or bhangra for that matter.
DesiDancer: For me, all of the brownness was a relatively recent discovery, in my mid-20s or so. I mean, we were aware that we were brown, but growing up in the Midwest, in the 70s and 80s… there wasnÂ’t any Indian community for us to interact with. We had a few 78 records that my Dad had brought over (kidsÂ’ songs and stuff), but for the most part I think the climate when my dad came to the US was more to assimilate than to hold onto their native cultures. Once in a while heÂ’d hit up the Indian grocery and go on a cooking spree, so we knew what dosa and pakoras and stuff were, but we didnÂ’t learn Hindi or grow up watching desi movies, or even celebrating the holidays. I knew what Diwali and Holi were… but we didnÂ’t do anything about it. For years my buas sent rakhi to my dad, airmail. My sister and I would swipe them because they were such pretty bracelets, but we never bought rakhi for our brother.
Siddhartha: So, if you didn’t grow up self-consciously Indian, how would you describe the cultural atmosphere in your home growing up? And how did the notion of brownness—or non-whiteness—come into play?
DesiDancer: Ooh, good question. Because there was more of my momÂ’s family around than dadÂ’s, we celebrated all the usual—Xmas, Easter, Thanksgiving. We were around my maternal grandparents and aunts/uncles a lot more, so we just sort of did what they did. I think my dadÂ’s family was maybe out-of-sight-out-of-mind? We had picture books on India, some Indian art around the house, and my mom even tried to get us childrenÂ’s books with Indian protagonists… But generally speaking we were raised in an Americanized household, for the most part. While thereÂ’s no denying that the 3 of us are brown (one of these things is not like the other) it wasnÂ’t really a factor for us in shaping our childhood identities. Sure you get some idiot in school who wants to know your story, and then either asks if your dad wears a towel on his head, or your mom wears a dot… or they pat their hand over their mouth and do the idiotic rain dance (not that kind of Indian, yo!)… But we didnÂ’t really dwell on it much.
Siddhartha: How about the name thing. You and I both have Indian names. My sister does as well and I imagine your siblings too? Did that get you questions about your origins, and how did you relate to your name as a marker of your identity?
DesiDancer: We all have Indian first names and Angrezi middle names. Which seems to suggest that at the time, my parents were very much about the biculturalism. The name was both a badge and a curse. Obviously I look sort of Indian, so it seemed to “match” that I had an Indian name. But oh my god the teachers in school just could not seem to get the hang of my name! I got called everything, all sorts of mutations and mispronunciations. I think around 7th grade, when kids start to get really vicious, and we all just really want to fit in and conceal our awkwardness I started asking people to call me an Americanized nickname version of my name (Re)… it just seemed easier because at that age I really didnÂ’t want to get into a diction lesson every time they called roll in school. It seemed to stick well because I was a tomboy. But my family always called me by my given name. How about for you? Your name was probably much more of a challenge than mine.
Siddhartha: True dat. I actually don’t have a middle name. I guess my name was a challenge but growing up in France, it didn’t seem to bother my friends and my teachers. They used my full name, just pronounced it as if it were a French name with no effort to learn the “authentic” pronunciation. When I came back to the U.S. for college, that’s when two things happened: 1) Some people became interested in the “authentic” pronunciation, but also 2) Everyone else started calling me Sid.
DesiDancer: Blame “Dil Chahta Hai.” Do you not like “Sid”?
Siddhartha: IÂ’ve written on Sepia before about my struggles with “Sid” or “Sidd” — how I eventually gave into it, used it myself, and it took me years to realize that I could do something about it. I reclaimed it first in my professional life, and then eventually I got everyone in my world to revert to my full name. I sent an email to all my friends, and I got lots of support, as well as other people testifying about their own name issues. Interestingly, after I wrote my post, on that thread everyone called me by my full name, and since then all these people have been using Sid! But itÂ’s one of those things, once youÂ’ve made the effort to reclaim your name, it no longer matters that much what people call you. ItÂ’s no longer that big a deal.
DesiDancer: True. I reverted back to my full name, when I moved to NYC. I figured with a city as diverse as NYC, I wasnÂ’t going to have the freakiest name, so it wasnÂ’t unreasonable to expect people to pronounce it correctly. I still have some girlfriends who call me Re. But itÂ’s contextual — itÂ’s how we know each other — so it doesnÂ’t bother me, but even they try to switch it up. But when I meet new people, I use my full name. I have a friend who was nicknamed “Rick” for years upon years, and heÂ’s tried reclaiming “Rakesh” for at least the last 2 years. It wonÂ’t stick, because all his boyz always call him Rick and refuse to switch. ItÂ’s probably a bit frustrating…
Siddhartha: I bet. If he really wants to switch and his boys wonÂ’t let him, theyÂ’re jerks. So, letÂ’s talk a bit about the process of getting down with the brown. Can you identify the key moments/stages for you?
DesiDancer: Well, I always kind of had the “pull” from India. I donÂ’t know if itÂ’s because IÂ’m the oldest, because IÂ’m a girl, or because I went there when I was young enough to have retained impressions of the trip. And I can see photos of myself in India… I remember people or things… so I always asked about India as a kid, and wanted to go back. But after junior high school (and the great name change) I didnÂ’t really actively pursue the topic much. It was in the back of my mind, but I was probably more concerned with fitting in than pushing the issue…
Siddhartha: So, did things start to happen in college?
DesiDancer: After. My big a-ha moment, as Oprah likes to call them, was around 2001. I went to visit my DadÂ’s uncle & aunt and we were watching a home movie of uncleÂ’s last trip to India. He had gone to a wedding and had run into one of my DadÂ’s younger brothers. So we were watching this tape and my chacha came on screen… My DadÂ’s aunt asked me, “When was the last time you went to India?” and I told her, when I was 2… She immediately stomped her foot and directed her husband to take me to India that fall — he was planning on going back anyway. It was kind of the green light I needed to jump into the discovery of brownness. It wasnÂ’t that it was off-limits or a no-no topic in our house, but we were told 100 times over that we werenÂ’t going to visit India, ever. So I forgot about it as a possibility until that conversation with my dadÂ’s aunt & uncle. I spent the next 8 months trying to contact family in India.
We hadnÂ’t really kept in touch with people there, but my DadÂ’s uncle found the address for our family house in Dehradun, so we sent an aerogram over and waited to see if anybody wrote back. My Chacha still lives in my DadajiÂ’s house, and so he emailed us both back, and also sent me the email addresses for my cousins. When I went to India at 2, I only had one cousin who is 4 months younger than I am. Since then, I have 10 cousins, all slightly younger than me (20-29) and I had no idea! I started emailing with a few of them, and it was really the coolest, most welcoming experience. My cousins have a lot to do with why IÂ’m so fond of my family and of India. They were so enthusiastic and awesome — we emailed all the time, back and forth, and right around then IÂ’d started trying to watch Bollywood movies (I think Lagaan and Monsoon Wedding had just come out, and I was SO thrilled to see an entire movie with brown people in it) and learn some Hindi. So even before I went to India, IÂ’d started bonding with my cousins over email. WeÂ’d send pictures to each other, my one cousin is an artist so she scanned in some of her work and emailed it to me, weÂ’d argue over SRK and Hrithik, and because they were so open with me, it was really easy to ask my most ridiculous questions and not feel stupid for it.
And when I did go to India that fall, it was the most amazing thing — despite having never met my cousins, I truly felt like we werenÂ’t meeting as strangers because weÂ’d bonded so much before I got there. IÂ’d tried to learn some Hindi, and they were great about teaching me the slang or not making fun of my crappy grammar, and we just had the best month together! It was almost as if weÂ’d grown up together… and because of that weÂ’ve been able to keep in touch for the last four years, despite some of us getting married, and the fact that I havenÂ’t been back yet… The two girls, are really special to me, because theyÂ’re only a couple years younger than I am. For a girl to have an older sister is amazing, and so I take my role as such VERY seriously. I would do anything for those girls — I was a mess during the Mumbai explosions because I couldnÂ’t reach one of them, in Mumbai. Despite the distance and weird circumstances, IÂ’m closer to them than I am to my brother and sister. So I think a lot of my affection for the desh has to do with the wonderful openhearted love I got from my own cousins. Conversely, I had a chachaji call me a half-blooded witch, so I guess it runs the entire spectrumÂ…
So that was that major turning point in my life. Despite the fact that my dad lost touch with his family and didnÂ’t have any interest in rekindling it, he was very supportive of my trip to India. One of my buas came over for my shaadi, and to see her and my Dad face to face for the first time in over 25 years was just emotionally overpowering. It was the best wedding present ever. Ironically, the Bollywood movies that I studied in preparation for my trip got me hooked. Like crack. I canÂ’t stop watching them, even the really crappy ones… and the dances really got me! ItÂ’s been a really satisfying and strange journey that my life has come full circle in a way. I always danced, since I was 3 or so; I rediscovered my family, which sort of led me to Bollywood, and now it seems the puzzle has come together with all the pieces—as I teach and perform my Bollywood dance. I gained a career, besides a family!
Siddhartha: This is a great story youÂ’ve shared with me.
DesiDancer: I get long-winded sometimes because I think itÂ’s such a cool story. I debate writing a book, but I think my dad would strangle me
Siddhartha: It really is a cool story. IÂ’m interested in a couple things you alluded to — the way your dad burned bridges, or perhaps I should say allowed bridges to fritter away, with India, and along the same lines what you said about being told over and over, growing up, that you wouldnÂ’t go to India. But it makes for a great story. You really got inspired and acted on it and followed through.
For me it was different because we went to India every 2-3 years. And we would go for long stays — three weeks to three months. We usually went to Calcutta, but later my dad, who is a scientist, began to work with colleagues in Bombay and so there were several trips there. In fact, my freshman year of college, my parents and sister spent the year in India and thatÂ’s where I visited them that Christmas. So by the time I was in college IÂ’d been to Calcutta and various places in Bengal, Bihar and Orissa, as well as Delhi and Bombay. At the same time, it was all in function of my family and my parentsÂ’ choices. In college, though, I took a number of classes that were directly about South Asia, or that were relevant (like development economics). I took a class about Hinduism, and one on Indo-Muslim culture.
DesiDancer: So did you grow up speaking Bengali? And, it seems that in your case the brownness was always in the background, but was it in college that you really began to explore that as part of your identity?
Siddhartha: ItÂ’s funny, I was just going to mention language. I grew up, I would say, knowing some Bengali, rather than actually speaking it. During time spent in Calcutta I would be able to say quite a lot, especially the phrases used to make requests of servants.
DesiDancer: Hahahahaha. Chai lao and all that?
Siddhartha: Yeah, all that. My command of kitchen words, foods and so forth, is OK. I probably have 200-300 words of Bangla… and maybe 50 of Hindi.
DesiDancer: We didnÂ’t learn Hindi at all. The only words I learned were the ones my dad peppered his speech with: junglee, bandar, memsahib, suar, courpi (with regard to our need to clip our fingernails)… strangely they were all sarcasticÂ…
Siddhartha: What is Mr. DDÂ’s ethnicity?
DesiDancer: Mr. DD is desi. He came over when he was 3, so he’s about as westernized as I am. A lot of that is why we are great together—he’s not stuck in the old-school mentality and he gets my unusual (bad Indian girl) personality, though he hates Bollywood movies and wants to reclaim control of our Netflix.
Siddhartha: You realize this is very interesting, right?
DesiDancer: He knows more about the culture and traditions, whereas IÂ’m more knowledgeable about the pop culture stuff and the current atmosphere in India.
Siddhartha: And you guys met after you began your re-encounter with India?
DesiDancer: Yeah 🙂
Siddhartha: IÂ’ve dated desi and non-desi of many types.
DesiDancer: It is an interesting twist that heÂ’s desi; I dated all non-desis prior to him.
Siddhartha: And my sisterÂ’s husband is non-desi but theyÂ’ve given their 1/4 desi daughter a desi name. Etc., etc. Lots of dimensions.
DesiDancer: Really? ThatÂ’s cool.
Siddhartha: Yeah. In a way this is where a lot of the SM readership may be interested because it raises issues so many of them are confronting, either as mixed people or as people likely to produce mixed kids. So I’d like to be able to tell people just enough about ourselves, but then really get into the psychological aspects, the tradeoffs, etc—so we can spark some conversation on it.
DesiDancer: Fer sure. So hereÂ’s a question: obviously for our parentsÂ’ generation, especially those in India and their elders, there seems to still be a lot of partition-era separatism with regards to Hindu/Muslim/Sikh/Jain etc., even straight/gay, or the ostracism of those in non-traditional pursuits career-wise or dating-wise. Do you think our generation is freed up from some of those prejudices? Does being mixed ingrain a sense of tolerance in us that maybe some others donÂ’t have? Like, I have Muslim friends, Christian-desi friends, Sikh friends, Jain friends, gay-desi friends, desis with crazy unusual careers, desis who married non-desis… And I know some auntie back home is clutching her chest over it, probably. 🙂 Or we can hit that one later.
Siddhartha: That’s a great question. I think we should hit that one later. Maybe we should finish up the whole “re-encounter with India” bit and pause for today; then on the next convo talk about living desiness as mixed people today.
Yes Bidi, it would be OK. Sigh.
If in fact in your experience, all the white girls you met were “slutty” in your opinion. All you are stating is your opinion, based on your limited experience. As long as you clarify that, where is the harm?
Anjalitoo
Yep, my friend mentioned above is Guyanese. He says tensions are very high there between Indians and Africans.
It does seem that Trini people mix more. Though the predominantly black Trini friends I have are uncomfortable around Indians and vice versa.
The Indians have managed to hold on to alot of their traditional culture from back in the Desh, whereas the Africans have not. That has to do with slavery, amongst other things.
Many of the things you express in your comments above are reflected amongst my Carib friends also.
Thanks for your input, Anjali. “Race” as we’ve defined it, is so complicated as is – and then you put other contexts such as gender, generations, culture, religion into the mix – and it gets even more complicated.
I’d be curious to hear from even more black and brown (or brown on brown as you put it, Anjali) offspring!
Thanks Bidi, when guys tell me that I’m hot, I usually tell them to send my mother a gift.
Taz and Abhi look like sister and brother in the photo they posted here. Similar nose and other facial features.
BS I think that a lot of the tension that you speak of could be realated to the way that West Indian (caribbean) society is stratified, being a classist soceity with those of means being those that are mixed, Indian, Chinese and white. When Indians and Chinese were brought over at the end of slavery to work as indentured servants, the same restrictions on schooling, ownership of land and making a wage were not place on them as tightly as they were on the former slaves. Thus putting them in a better position to actually make something of themselves and giving their families greater security. You’d have to imagine that this would lead to long standing tensions. So I think that the discomfort that your friends speak of maybe more directly related to classism rather than race or culture.
My mother, my aunt and my youngest uncle are actually first gen Jamaican, my two older uncles were born in England where my grandparents met. My grandmother was born in England and my grandfather in India, but I don’t know where, and they married in England, where most of my family still resides. They moved to Jamaica because my grandfather wanted to be away from England after he left the army and my grandmothers family had land there.
Tensions between various races and cultures in the West is something that is new to me, as I have for years since a very young age been a member of an international religious group that comprises many different races, cultures and citizens of various countries. We don’t deal in all this external stuff coz we are all pretty much relating to each other on a higher level (or at least trying to). There are all kinds of mixed couples in my religion, though I’m sure some of them may face problems amongst their family and friends who are not members of the same religion. Even amongst members of the religion who are Indian in India (never left the Desh), you will find that they follow the customs of their conditioned culture and arrange marriages for their kids not only amongst other Indians, but within the same caste, and same geographical location when possible. Being a member of an international religion, yet they are rooted in their home culture. However, amongst everyone not born and raised in India, anything seems to go in terms of finding a mate – much to the amusement of the India resident Indians.
It’s all good. I think we all get a good laugh out of each other at the end of the day.
Yes, it is pretty fraustrating not knowing what to identify with, but I’m still wading through most of the culture still, and my uncle is usually the family historian when you can catch up with him, still I never was very fond of the whole bollywood thing, I kinda find it a bit embarrasing, but the music has always been a constant so I view the whole bhangra thing as just something new. I’ve learned lately though that a lot of the indians in the caribbean, mostly those in Trinidad and the other islands are from the punjab region, though what this means for me is not clear seeing as my family is not, strictly speaking, from the caribbean. BS, I understand what you’re saying, I had an experience last summer with the guy I was dating at the time, vinay, he went home for his siters marriage, which his parents had arranged, and he told me that they kept trying to talk to him about arranging his own marriage and it scared the crap out of him because he wasn’t expecting that anymore because he was living here. It scared me so much that I broke up with him. I didn’t want to be left on the sidelines if indeed they did arrange a marriage for him, because I don’t see how he could have told them no.
AnjaliToo,
There was a whole website online a few years ago dedicated to non-Indian women who had Indian boyfriends, warning them about how no matter how much in love she thinks they are, chances are, he will surrender to the marriage arranged by his parents. Consequently they said that such a site is not neccessary for non-Indian males in love with Indian females because the females are more likely to defy tradition and marry whom they want.
Basically the site was created by a woman who suffered herself and her number one advise was, once the relationship goes beyond the casual dating stage, INSIST that he either take you home to meet his parents, or introduce you to them over the phone if they are living back in India. If he is unwilling to do this much, dump him, because you will only suffer in the end.
That was her advice, not mine.
Well, Vin and I are still really good friends, even though he wants more. He told me that if he were already with someone then his parents wouldn’t force him to marry somone of their choosing, I stopped short of asking him what if the person he were with, was not Indian. He says that, then he tells the new girl that he’s dating that she shouldn’t get too serious because his parents are arranging his marriage, so who knows what to believe. I’ve dated some Indian men who were indipendent enough to defy their parents if they met a non indian woman they wanted to marry, but who wants to marry into something like that? Certainly not me, I refuse to relive my parents marriage with the children only really knowing one half of their family and culture.
That’s something I’ve seriously wondered about for a while now. I’ve always been excited about mixing two families (monoracial or not) and sharing holidays and family gatherings together… but based on what I’ve seen of my boyfriends parents and of desi culture in general, that will probably be impossible. I do NOT hold my tongue around blatant ignorance and I’m NOT scared of anybody’s evil Auntie. I can be respectful, but I’m not really excited about having to deal with that at every family gathering…
Its funny that you said that Bidi, I’ve always wondered if being half Indian would place me lower in their eyes and that has always been what has scared me when it came to meeting the parents, thanks for clarifying that for me. Maybe I will see what happens with vin a me, we are very compatible.
mostindian people i knew in college made me feel “not desi enough?” because i dont know hindi, or watch bollywood. long live pulliogre!
I remember
If everything I say is an “out-dated stereotype”, Bidi, then how would you explain the experiences of One-up? And the anxieties of AnjaliToo, too?
These are very real concerns for non-Indian women involved with Indian men. I can name at least a dozen, myself included.
I don’t begrudge anyone for wanting to marry within their own ethnic or cultural background, that is a personal choice. But then why get involved at all with people outside of that circle, lead them on, and then break their hearts? Rather from the get-go one should be honest and declare it to be just a temporary relationship. That’s only fair to all parties involved.
I had a really negative view of bollywood growing up. they just seemd like inferior movies. didnt get why my parents love them so much. come to think of it. im still not sure why, and i still dont like them. but…the acressses are h0t, so ill watch.
correction. not all of them are bad. just 8/10 of them. some of them rock.
Bidi said:
i wish i had your nimble manuevering of a very similar situation.
for myself, that would read:
Sasuri bole, “Angel Bahu… idar aou! Roti banao, khanna pakao, ped debao…”
Jigga kaun?
Uh…that’s not how it works at all, from what I’ve seen. Beta can bring home whoever he wants, but a girl best keep that shit traditional. Also, I agree with Bidi about how you’ve been called out– I wish there were a way to vote comments up or down, so that someone who finds this page next year doesn’t read you and then operate under some beige misapprehension.
(…and now, for the Malayalam translation, dedicated to Puliogre and Bidi)
Jigga arra?
Uh…that’s not how it works at all, from what I’ve seen. Kuttan can bring home whoever he wants, but a penne best keep that theetum traditional. Also, I agree with Bidi about how you’ve been called out– I wish there were a way to vote comments up or down, so that someone who finds this page next year doesn’t read you and then operate under some kavadikalam misapprehension.
AC, is there really a “Pinky” in your life or is that just part of your Desifunland personae? If not, hit me up! You are totally hilarious (and spot on). I don’t even care if you look like an uncle. It’s whats on the inside that counts, and I’m a sucker (literally) for comedians.
See? Vegetarians DO love certain types of protein!
AnjaliToo,
I had this Jamaican female coworker who exhibited some pretty racist behaviour toward me once, and now I think I get it. I took her and a few others out to an Indian restaurant (this was in a real redneck town). One of the white chicks, predictably, freaked out and opted for the caesar salad, all the while assuring me she was delighted to be trying Indian food for the first time. But the Jamaican girl kept talking about how all the Indian restaurants she’d ever been in had had really dirty kitchens. She kept picking at her food, as though she were looking for hair etc., to the point that I became extremely rude to her. I didn’t understand exactly where it was coming from, I thought perhaps it was some sort of personal animosity toward me, but now I think it may have been taught at home.
Yes trust me it was taught at home. I remember being about 3 or 4 and my older brother getting into fights everyday just based on the crap the other 4-7 year olds would say to us particularly him, I don’t think any of them even knew his name, they all called him coolie babu, which might not make sense to people here, and now doesn’t really make sense to me now, but its a racial slur in Jamaica directed towards indian or half indian men. I remember one particular little ditty that I won’t bother to repeat that alluded to indians eating poop and calling us coolies. Like I said before it’s like a double edged sword, the men wanna sleep with you and the women hate you, but they all want to look like you or have kids that look like you.
AnjaliToo, what’s the percentage of Indians in the Jamaican population?
BS please don’t use me as an example of dishonest Indian men, I mentioned one incident that happened to me and he never lied to me, he was honest that his parents may try to arrange his marriage, I decided to react to it the way I did by cutting it off. Of course in any situation people tend to gravitate towards what they know and culture is a big part of what most people know, I mean look at me for instance, I gravitate more towards Indian men because thats what my family pushed me towards and I’m not even full indian and I grew up in a place where mates of every cultral group are represented for most of my life, yet I gravitate towards indian men because thats what I’m used to seeing at home, at family functions, thats been my basis for what is attractive. I agree with Bidi, that people need to be more honest with their intentions, but no one had ever lied to me, I just got scared that someone that I really cared might be taken away from me if he is strong enough to say no to his parents. And Indian women do the same thing too, my friend Ambica dates white guys, black guys whatever, but she has said and will always remind you that when the time comes to get married he’ll have to be Indian or not at all, as for me, I’ve always know that I’d marry an Indian man either from the Islands, India or here, that just where my comfort zone is. Trust me Indian men to not have a monopoly on dishonesty.
If not, hit me up! I thought you have a dreadlocked boyfriend who you use to “shock” Vasundhara aunty with?
Re: Interracial dating. Oneup mentioned on another thread that black women would have a hard time going with brownz because most aren’t “saved.”
AnjaliToo, I wasn’t citing you as an example of a victim of dishonesty, just citing your anxieties which you expressed regarding Indian men and/or their parents.
Risible, yes, I do have a boyfriend, so what? Doesn’t mean I’m not in the market for someone potentially more in tune with my religious background.
Inter-racial, inter-cultural, blah, blah, blah. Inter-religious can be the most painful and hard to navigate.
If you mean pure indians born in Jamaica, I’d say 8 or 9 perecnt, if you want to include mixes in that, then that number would have to jump to about 15%, and then Indians whose families emmigrated to Jamaica from India like my friend Richa’s family, they make up about 1% of the population
AnjaliToo, so you spent alot of time in Jamaica? Were you born and raised there? Sorry but I did not get your complete history.
I’m interested to know what the Indians thought of the black Jamaicans, in general. Do the Indians in Jamaica hold on to and practice Indian traditions like many in Guyana do?
What’s the general ethos of Indians in Jamaica?
“Real Unity” by Machel Montano
Intro..
Chorus Harry Krishna, Harry Krishna, ah – Jam up de Soca Harry Krishna, Harry Krishna, ah – Jam up de Chutney Soca Harry Krishna, Harry Krishna, ah – Jam up de Soca
Ah met a D.J. boy from India He tell me how he luv up de soca His name was Harry Krishna And he was born in Calcutta He hear Trinbago is de land of soca
So he jus had to come down here, And when they hear him jam good Chutney Soca He make people put they people put they hand in de air Now everytime it having Big Big party
(4 times) Everybody bawling for Harry They want to hear d soca mix with Chutney (4 times) So dey ciuld get in ah renzy
Hear dem bawlin for de Bangra Soca Hey hey we de Bangra Play a Shadow or a Lord Kitchener For de people dem run it selector
(Repeat) Chorus
Break….
(Repeat) Bridge
Every dance they havin now Dey want Harry Krishna Every dance they havin now Dey want Chutney Soca Dey want Harry Krishna Aaah ah ah ah………
Chorus
Harry, Harry De people bawling for we Harry, Harry, Make them come together in unity, Bring de culture straight from India
Jam it up with Trinidad Soca Hear de people de bawl for Krishna They say they want to hear Chutney Soca What they say what they say
Ditto. My problem isn’t that my boyfriend has to choose between getting arranged or not… its that I think his extremely traditional and overbearing parents are crazy.
Black AMERICAN women… I’m not sure how the church thing works out in other countries, but in a lot of black churches, the women do the majority of the work.
I was born there, came here when I was 14. Most of the indians in Jamaica do not hold onto a lot of the paracticies the way that the guyanese have, which may be why the level of tensions created by intermarriage is not as high as it is in guyana. Indian foods are a part of mainstream culture, most indians in jamaica are jamaican first indian second. Although there is not as high a tension regarding intermarriage like said before, my mother married a black man but there’s still that unspoken don’t bring home a black boy, black girl is ok, but not a black boy. Thats as far as my experience goes.
One-up,
I considered marrying an Indian who lives in India once. His family liked me as a person, and we got along fine as long as they thought nothing more than a casual friendship/business relationship was going on between me and their son.
We more or less shared the same religion.
However, he stemmed from an ultra-orthodox Brahmin family and to marry a non-Brahmin girl, what to speak of a non-Indian, was a big taboo for them. He was thinking up all sorts of ways to get the whole thing accepted by them – inluding eloping and/or getting me pregnant BEFORE marriage!
Anyway, he has since settled down with a nice Brahmin girl (arranged) from his own region and everyone is very happy, including him and the girl, who are in love. I’m happy for them.
In fact, I told him from the beginning, “forget me and marry an Indian girl”. But he had an aversion to girls from similar backgrounds as himself. He thought they would be too traditional and “boring” – his words, not mine.
I knew there was no way I could fit into their joint family arrangement, which in their community expects alot from a new bahu (daughter in law). I was not up for it and knew he would not be happy living separately from his family, they are all so close, although he did nurse a desire to live and prosper in America, which, being that he was not a University graduate and had no desire to become one, would’ve remained just a pipe dream.
All’s well that ends well.
Why are all these desi guys you girls are talking about so WUSSY? Where are all the bad boy desis, the ones who tell their parents and everyone else to f-off and mind their own business? I know they’re out there!
Hold on, why is it soooo bad for PardesiGori to exoticize, but we all look the other way when Bidi does it? That’s pretty straight up “You’re hot because of your race”. Just because PardesiGori is gauche and Bidi is sauve by comparison, or because she’s white and he’s brown, doesn’t mean that it’s wrong for one but OK for the other.
What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.
First of all technically I’m the american definition of other, not one “race” or the other, and I don’t think he was refering to her exoticizing as he was refering to the rather broad general statements made and then applied to all desi men, without regard for experiences or personal responsibility.
I second that call for desi bad boyz… maybe that would break the cruel stereotype that they’re effeminate computer geeks.
And DoubleStandards, you’ve got a point.
I think mixed matches are hotter and more interesting, but I guess when you have to think about the boring stuff like family you’ve got to think other other boring things like keeping the cookies away from the cream.
I still think though that what most people are afraid of is disapproval, not actually having their partners forbidden by their parents. In reality there are v few people whose parents would ban them from marrying/being with the one they love long term. It’s whether we feel truly comfortable with the person and can put up with eternal familial guilt-tripping that it boils down to.
Anjali Too,
let me clarify.
The general rap against Pardesi Gori is that she exoticizes desi men, she likes them because they’re desi (as opposed to the desi women who only date brown on this blog who … like them because they’re desi).
Bidi shows up and says “Anjali Too is hot because she’s mixed brown and black” but really, that’s the same as what Pardesi Gori has been doing and getting criticized for it. Oh, I recognize the huge differences in execution, but I want to put those aside for a second.
If Razib had made the same statement, about mixed being hot, he would have been getting 10 types of shit from here until sundown. However, when a good, progressive, desi boy says the same thing … we give it a pass.
Yes, Pardesi Gori often says things “wrong”, she makes a statement in a jarring, grating or ham-fisted way. She gets on peoples’ nerves because she’s tone deaf to issues of discourse. Still, that’s about style, not content.
In terms of content, we’ve got a double standard. It would be easy enough to demonstrate. If I was a troll, I could simply lift Bidi’s statements here and elsewhere (like on his own blog), and disguise them lightly, put them down, and I would get flamed to high heaven for what are, essentially, Bidi’s words.
It’s not as if america has never had desi/black mixes before… if you aren’t wonderbread white american you are an “other” to the american ideal.
Eh, you must not know very many mixed race people…
PG Wodehouse:
Hi. Erm, you named several points. I’m actually close to my cousin, we’re almost to the same age and we even grew up together for a bit. We talk quite regularly when she’s around. However Indianness is never an issue. Why? I guess she’s just like an other adolescent, so it really never becomes a topic of discussion. Yeah I guess passivity is not exactly the strongest stance to take. I think it’s also a matter of indecision, as to what should view oneself as. Which is also brought about by the familiarity of Indianness. On the one hand, the need for reconnection. On the other hand it just seems so incredibly dull to take an active interest in India and it’s history because it’s already ‘known’, something one has grown up with from the very beginning. It’s like having two lives. All of this is quite odd since I used to be quite gung-ho about Indian culture and being Indian, to be the point that I railed against my parents for having acquired EU nationalities for the four of us. And by the way, I didn’t break up with my white boyfriends because of their colour, although I think the lack of the FBD(Foreign-Born Desi) experience is definitely always going to be a problem.
Thomas,
Thanks for that bit of advice. Chennai has always seemed like a pretty relaxed place but the unfamiliarity and my shelteredness makes a visit out on my own very daunting. I always feel very concious of looking ‘different’, even if I am dressed in complete South Indian attire.
UPS
Well actually I do agree with you here. There should be a middle road somewhere between denial that sex even exists and 12-year-old girls getting it on. I don’t even agree with little girls wearing bikinis – it might attract the attention of pervs.
DQ,
Clubs were allowed from age 17 as long as we went in a group context. But clubs arent really my sort of thing anyway. The parents are very liberal though, they allow us to read, watch and do things most other desi parents would be fearful of.
Shruti
Not really. I mean, why? The person is question is in control of their own life and has their own choices to make. Be it Kal Penn or one of us on this site. Why should it matter to someone whom one has never met in what way one is representing the Indian community?
Much respect, Bidi. I recently bailed from a successful career in government to become a writer, and am now freelancing and working on a novel. Since I’m in my early thirties I didn’t have to tell anyone to fuck off, had to do that earlier when I decided to study philosophy instead of law. Very good to hear that you are having a blast and sticking to your chosen path. As far as I’m concerned, you’re definitely a desi bad boy.
On another subject: there’s lots of ways desi parents can make life hell for someone who chooses someone ‘inappropriate’. My mom smiled and nodded and pretended all was fine, but began to make little critical remarks of one of my exes whenever she and I were alone. She escalated her needling remarks and criticisms and accusations to the point where it became intolerable. Fights with her were frequent. She delighted when he and I had arguments. I had to stop talking to her about anything concerning the relationship. My relationship with her has never recovered from the sight of the narrow-mindedness and selfishness in her character. So it’s not just about apparent acceptance – I had that, to the point that my ex and I were actually living with my parents – but acceptance from the heart.
Meena, thanks for the reply to a rather snarkily-phrased question. I just wanted to point out that non-desi men are far more gropey than desi men in India. The worst I got in India was inexpert grabbing by sober and almost always nervous males. Some of the stuff you get in clubs and just in general from men over here is far worse.
I think, in general, you are too hard on desis. This may be due to lack of exposure or youth.
I’m packing for my flight but felt the need to respond.
Double Standards, I intuitively feel what you’ve stated about just that – double standards. Not only would my comments be more accepted if I were desi, If I were even black (African American) and saying these things, I bet there would be less hollerin. I have seen it right before my eyes.
Anyway, I don’t “exoticise” Indian men. Really, I don’t find them “exotic” at all. That’s not to say I don’t find some attractive, I do. (Is Manish gonna be at LA meetup?) But I never had a fetish for them. Never.
The few romantic relationships I had with them were circumstantial to my environment.
The relationship mentioned above, wherein the young man married an Indian girl of his same caste was more of a case of me not wanting to marry him. If I had given him a definite yes, I’m sure he would’ve worked out some crazy way to incorporate me positively into the family, even if it took a pre-marital pregnancy. But I knew I would not fit in and be happy living in a large joint family where gender roles are rigidly defined and one’s freedom of movement restrained. Moreover, I knew that his family, and ultimately he himself, would not be happy with the situation either. In order for people to live together cohesively and harmoniously, they have to share the same goals in life. We all were just way too different.
I think with most of my posts I have clarified my opinions as based on my personal experiences only, and thus stayed clear of making a large sweeping brush of what all desi men are like. My experiences with desi men are with those born, bred, and still living in the Desh (India). I do not have much personal experience with American desi men.
ONE-UP in comment # 306 – You are right, a comment like that one comes from someone who has not had much contact with “mixed” people. I often hear that from people who – have very little if any personal friendships with people born of mixed parents.
“Mixed people are hot”. Or “Indians mixed with blacks are hot”. Or “Anything mixed with black is hot”. Sweeping generalizations made by people who, by their own admission, have not seen very many such combos.
I live and breathe amongst many different kinds of mixes and I can tell you, the truly “hot” ones are rare, again, in my own personal experience. But I think every human being has some beautiful quality or feature, even if not obvious at first.
MEENA – I don’t want to scare you but I will share with you some advice that I picked up from an Indian newspaper while in India. Carry a big safety pin with you in your purse or pocket while travelling and moving around India. When you get groped, prick the guy with the pin, even if you don’t see his face.
In my experience South India has less of this problem than North India does. But yet it is still there. Be bold. Don’t look or act intimadated and don’t be afraid to slap some faces or make some noise, or even take a few snap-shots.
I refer you to;
http://blanknoiseproject.blogspot.com/
Hollerin? You really do have all the delicacy of a bludgeon. I confess that, a couple of weeks ago, I thought Siddhartha was overreacting. But, no, he had it right all along.
Kobayashi – where’s the need for delicacy? That’s my southern drawl comin out.
Wow. Seems I really need to walk on ice around some of you.
Too much self-conscious PC awareness. Hard for me to get used to.
I just say things how I see it.
I refer you to the song “Simplicity” by Sizzla.
Personally, I’m not into the whole post-modernist PC thing, however, in defense of this forum and its people, it’s your tact over the written word that seems lacking.
A larger question is, what does this forum represent to you? To me it is a place to learn like almost any other venue. Are you seeking validation, acceptance, attention here? Are you willing to be emotionally honest not only about other’s views and critique their statements, but yourself also?
These are few questions you may want to simmer on before you engage in discussions. At the end of the day, just because you feel and conclude certain thoughts, it doesn’t necessarily mean it translates into the larger familiar world (or one that you think you may know) the same way.
Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one. If you’re stating them to seek attention or validation of your self esteem/confidence/personal worth, please re-evaluate. Hopefully discussions here, if you’re willing to listen for a change, can help educate you as it has educated myself and others.
You don’t have to agree with everyone, but in any and every critique, look for something constructive even if there isn’t much there. On the flip side, constructive arguments from yourself would be helpful, too.
Bidi,
As far as using the “n” word, depends on which environment you live in. If you don’t live in a ghetto, then yeah, it’s out of place. If you are not surrounded by close family and friends who use the word in a good way, then yeah, it’s out of place. It all depends on what is termed in sanskrit, desh-kala-patra, or, “place, time and circumstance”.
I’ve only seen three people so far who have major issues with what I’ve posted here – you, Siddhartha, and Abhi. Anna made a mild comment but nothing harsh so maybe that would be 3 1/2. Oh yeah and Taz said one thing too, another half, so 4. That hardly represents the majority of contributers and commenters.
You obviously don’t read my comments in entirety anyway otherwise you would never have said this, “You’ve also made it clear that any Indian man that wouldn’t want you must be “confined by narrow gender roles”.
Where did I say that? Don’t even refer me to my above post regarding ONE boyfriend who came from an ultra-orthodox Brahmin family wherein there were narrowly confined gender roles at play.
Seems you have a hard time understanding the concept of anecdotal evidence or the words, “from my personal experience”.
And again I repeat, that guy wanted me, I was the one who said no.
Anyway, back to packing……… I meet my future astro-husband soon.