Since I don’t watch these television shows, it’s a bit dicey to comment on the spate of shows featuring romances between black men and asian women, so I’ll let Rinku Sen do it for me: 
The sugary romance between the excessively noble characters played by Parminder Nagra and Shafiq Atkins on ER follows the much hotter one between Ming Na Wen and Mekhi Phifer that ended two seasons ago. GreyÂ’s Anatomy features Sandra Oh in an up-and-down relationship with Isaiah Washington.
What accounts for such interest? ItÂ’s as though these couples have been pouring out of medical schools and producers decided to capture the trend.
The representations tread the line between cultural authenticity, sometimes considered stereotype, and colorblindness. The women exhibit some level of conflict with their cultures and are slightly neurotic: Ming Na dreaded telling her immigrant parents that she was having a baby out of wedlock; Nagra quit her job in a bout of rebellion against family expectation to work as a convenience store clerk. The men are dangerous but tender. Phifer grew up without a father and has a temper; Gallant went off to serve in Iraq. I did laugh at the effort to bridge cultures, though, when NagraÂ’s character got married wearing a white sari. White is the Hindu color of mourning.(link)
If it’s on TV, is it a reflection of a real sociological trend, or simply a convenient image of happy multiculturalism from television fantasy-land? Sen’s article gets into some sociological explanations for the phenomenon, none of which are terribly convincing (I don’t think these romances have much to do with “American Empire” or colonialism). But she does argue that it goes beyond “submissive Asian woman”/”sexualized black man” stereotypes:
HamamotoÂ’s theory would suggest that such a preference was grounded in a sexual stereotype of submissive Asian women. I am familiar with our so-called seductress image. My Asian girlfriends and I spent our college years snottily rejecting the few white men who came around as “rice lovers.” While I did experience an American man mentioning the Kama Sutra within five minutes of meeting me recently in New York, my adolescent self-image was much closer to nerd than slut. To see all these Asian women who might also have been high-school nerds paired up with the most sexualized actors in American culture has been, I will admit it, a thrill. However, in real life, Asian women and Black men donÂ’t get to be both equally sexy and smart. “ItÂ’s easier for a Black man to get his foot in the door when heÂ’s with me,” said Aarti, “especially if weÂ’re working.”(link)
Class dynamics may be important in the appeal of Asians to some African Americans. And the “bad boy” image (stereotype) may make people of African descent more attractive to children of immigrants traditionally considered too studious and repressed (spelling bee/ math team champions) to be generally attractive.
Or maybe not: since there are no hard statistics, this could be just another Dubious Trend Story in line with infamous New York Times stories about baby gyms in Manhattan, or Ivy League women who decide to drop out of the rat race to become trophy wives. The next time you see an East or South Asian woman dating a black man … it may simply be that they are two people who happened to meet, and fall in love — irrespective of Parminder Nagra, and sociology be damned.
(Incidentally, for Bollywood fans, guess who played Nagra’s parents in a recent episode? Anupam and Kirron Kher, of course.)
Yashomati maya sa bola nandlala, Radha kyo gori? Ma kyo Kala?
Bhishma’s dad = Shantanu
Cant believe this has gone on over 400 comments……………..
Yeti I think I love you. Will you marry me?
Kenyandesi and others:
It isn’t a question of not chasing desi guys out of fear of social norms. My experiences are the result of trial and error as well. I asked out my first guy in grade six. I asked out one of my university profs. I’ve gone up to total strangers and asked them out, and not drunk either. When drunk, I’ve done worse things. Now I wait and let em come to me. When young and stupid, I always went after the hot guy (no matter what race), and while a couple of these episodes led to flings, none of them led to relationships. Either they were not that bright, or they were boring. On the other hand, when a guy approaches me, it’s a bit like an interview (I can hear the rocks flying even as I write this – hey dertie?). I know they’re interested, and the ball’s in my court.
sorry janeofalltrades, I’m happily committed to a 6’8″ Swedish woman
JOAT, proposing marriage to him was my first reaction upon reading Yeti’s first comment on this post (as well as each subsequent one), and I didn’t even know if he was a he at that point! So anyway, back off, ya heard? 😉
Oh whoops, nevermind. Yeti, you must be 5’2″ and hella dark then, no?
lol yes, i’m 5’2″, dark, and loves me some white women. I was just playing devil’s advocate.
seriously though, lest rumors get out about yeti, i actually am happily committed to a desi woman who is 90% of why I have a clue. ‘cuz desi women are ill like that.
You just can’t get enough of those balls can you. You should love baseball, whenever the ball gets dirty, the ump makes sure to throw out a new one. Just to make sure it’s shiny and white.
SO Lemme get this straight.
Female judgement is piss poor when they are the initiators, but it’s spot on when evaluating an approachee? OH ya totally clears it up, negates every logical position I’ve had thus far.
Sounds like I touched a raw nerve with the ball-less comment, Dertie. You make ‘bitter’ sound rather pleasant by comparison. What was it that told me you were a wallflower? The guy in the corner who never gets any? I think it was the earnest ‘I believe all men should be courted’ whine…
FYI – I’ve said repeatedly that I’ve dated men of all races, not just white men. You choose to ignore this to get revenge for my hitting a little too close to the truth. Oh, and the continuous whore subtext? That just reaffirms my sense of where your anger is coming from…frustration, dertie, pure frustration.
It wouldn’t be hard to negate every logical judgment you’ve had so far. Your ‘logical’ stance amounts to – I’m a scared, socially inept desi guy, so even though you have hot white guys hitting on you (who, by the way, you are a goddamned Eurocentric whore for banging), you should (PLEASE PLEASE) come over and take my virginity. Lots of logic in that.
It is you, my dear, who are barely literate, and entirely irrational. In one rant, you charge me with having a ‘Eurocentric’ attitude to manhood because I like men to chase me. As opposed to what? The liberated desi view which expects women to be sexually forward?? What a joke. Logic indeed. Ignoring the stated fact that I’ve dated black men, Arabic men and Latinos, you leap onto the fact that I’ve dated whites and label me a whitey lover. More logic. Thirdly, you persist in confusing my initial comment ‘noting’ (yes, I was merely noting – go reread it) that desis rarely hit on me, with ‘complaining’, being ‘bitter and resentful’ blah blah blah. Projection, dear dertie, pure projection…
Ok, folks. Take it easy.
I’ve been enjoying seeing everyone ‘get loose’ and share stories and perspectives. But if it degenerates into this kind of name-calling argument, we’ll have to end the thread.
Play nice.
I’m more frustrated at my inability to not respond to your posts over and over again.
Whew, talk about projection. I still haven’t used the whore once (other than to tell you I haven’t used the word once) I’m sorry for whoever did call you one though, they probably don’t have two functional knees.
I concede your first post was not bitter, your bitterness peaked after your initial comment, right about here
But I later said, that if you really don’t care about meeting desi guys that much (which you don’t seem to), there’s nothing wrong with it. If approaching a desi guy compromises your personal integrity, or puts you at risk for making piss poor judgements as it had in the past, then don’t and move on to Tyrone, Antonio, Mohammed, Francois, Jorge, did I miss any?
Couldn’t you discern the exaggerated style of the whitey lover comments?. Bangin whiteys, baseballs being white, these are all hyperbole. The crux of our entire scuffle was your comment that desi guys didn’t approach out of a warped sense of beauty, ball-lessnes, or whatever reason creeped into your little head.
uhh no, I charged all women growing up in the United States with a Eurocentric attitude because it’s a natural artifact of media and social forces in this country, as well as I agreed that men are susceptible to the same attitude. The last line made an off the flank reference to you, but the “dude you’re having fun with” was Al Muj, the post was directed toward yeti who was hammering into Al Muj pretty hard.
And no argument, I’m not socially agile, shit, I’m the first mofo to admit that. But then again I grew up in an environment that didn’t expect it, nurture or encourage it of me. For some people, that might not be the case.
Some people are born into money, some people aren’t. Everyone’s different. Not complaining, not making excuses, just giving an explanation.
Lastly… a prerequisite to negating my logic is to actually quote it correctly.
SHIT! the third line should read
“Whew, talk about projection. I still haven’t used the word whore once (other than to tell you I haven’t used the word once)…”
I’ll give you that, I do make a shitload of grammatical errors, then again I do have an engineering degree, the mere fact I can construct a sentence should be enough to wow you.
<
blockquote I still haven’t used the whore once
Well, that would explain the virginity. 😉
DESITUDE: I think the idea that Punjabi males are more handsome has much to do with the fact that the early film industry was dominated by Punjabis who frequently placed Punjabi men in lead roles. Now Muslims have much more influence in films, and we see very many Muslim male leads. Yes the economic and political “domination” is operative in our perception of beauty, though it may not be everything.
That makes no sense. Who are these actors you are talking about? And are you saying that Punjabis and Muslims were/are politically/economically dominant, and therefore thought to be good looking? What about the times they were politically oppressed? Not so HOT anymore, huh.
These things are so subjective that it’s a waste to make statements like that. I am Punjabi and do not find Punjabi men any more attractive than any other attractive Indian/Non-Indian men. My brother has a strong preference for South Indian women. I mean, really.
One possible biological hypothesis for the (unconcious) preference of lighter skin among many cultures is that it is easier to spot any effect of bad health and/or parasites. I’m not sure if it has ever been tested, but it has been thrown around in biological circles.
The inverse argument is that brown skin is more biologically attractive because it looks smoother and more uniform.
Relating this to the bias towards “tanned” skin amongst white people — amongst themselves anyway, if not necessarily in relation to “naturally” dark ethnic groups* — apart from the fact that it was supposed to indicate greater wealth (as, until quite recently, foreign holidays were limited only to the very rich), I was under the impression that it was regarded as looking more “healthy”.
*Apart from Mediterranean groups, of course, although the men from those countries in particular are regarded as very attractive indeed by English women (I’m not sure how the average white woman over in the US views them).
Janeofalltrades,
Well, again that’s a relatively recent thing (taking into consideration all the “full-figured” women in Renaissance paintings in Europe), but I think it’s basically to do with desiring women who have a certain level of physical fitness. It’s probably been exacerbated in recent times due to the cultural/social increase in people hitting the gym (both men and women) in this part of the world and a consequence increase in the “baseline” levels of fitness (actual and desired), although I don’t doubt that the media is also an influence to some extent.
By the way, I’d like to be your new best friend on SM so that you can introduce me to some of those models and blue/green/grey-eyed (female) cousins you know 😉
{joking}
Just so we’re clear on the transpiring of events:
CG comments she rarely gets approached by desi guys
I merely suggest that perhaps she could approach them
CG assumes I’m calling all desi guys a precious commodity, above social norms,
I clarify by saying in general, men should be approached when the women is interested enough to do so… With the clear implication that if women are not interested to approach any men, for any reason, then they shouldn’t.
CG launches into the ball-less, snooty, white-obsessed tirade
The rest is history, herstory, blogstory…
Sigh
Since this CG controversy is obviously dragging on a bit — and, beyond a certain point, I doubt large numbers of other commenters on SM are particularly interested in the continuing slanging match which is underway — this is what I see:
CG does not get approached by desi men very often.
She attributes this primarily to lack of confidence etc on their part, although it may be worthwhile for her to consider that there may be something about her — physically and/or behaviour — which is putting them off.
She mentioned that she is fairly dark, so I suspect this may be a factor in the (non-)reaction she tends to get from desi guys. However, being dark is not necessarily a deal-breaker for desi women if she has some substantial, “above-average” qualities (physical/personality) which may compensate for her complexion, although this will vary according to the specific guy concerned.
Men do have instincts too and can also read body language, so CG should also consider if she is deliberately/unintentionally doing something which is preventing desi guys from wishing to approach her, especially if previous negative experiences and/or prejudice towards desi men is affecting her behaviour, either subtly or explicitly. Her occasional misreading/misunderstanding of comments by some male commenters on this thread and her subsequent overreactions certainly indicates the latter to some degree. There may also be some other unrelated aspects of her public conduct which cause desi men to react negatively to her, rightly or wrongly.
Given the fact that she says desi men tend not to proactively approach her — and her assumption that this is because they do not like her due to her being “too dark” — I can fully understand her hesitation with regards to potentially being more proactive herself and approaching the men instead. “Once bitten, twice shy” etc.
But she does need to do some very honest thinking about the apparent lack of interest in her that desi guys appear to have — whether it’s because of something (actually or apparently) lacking in her (physically or some aspect of her behaviour or personality), or whether it really is the men’s “fault”, or if it’s some combination of the two, depending on the specific guy.
This is just an objective appraisal from an unrelated third-party and I trust that CG will not decide to lash out at me too.
Irrelevant but humorous and perhaps tangentially additive…
http://www.leveragedsellout.com/2006/06/how-gopal-mehta-got-paid-almost-got.html
Convenional standards of beauty are often associated with wealth or with what’s difficult to attain. One example is this NYT piece, in which China, often the country of thin people, has an ever growing obese population. The resulting impact on beauty is that their standard for what is acceptable beauty has become thinner. I’d agree with Jai that the desire for a thin woman has only become the standard in the past 40 years.
As for the Dert-Chitrangada love affair, just shut up. Please. You don’t need to explain yourself. It’s been established that neither of you are 12, so you don’t need to claim the other one started it. No one really cares. I certainly don’t. And all you two are doing is filling up this board with the same back and forth arguments that don’t progress the discussion and make this whole thread ever closer to being cutoff. Seriously, good going, people. I don’t care if you act like a “man” or like a “woman” — just act like an adult.
Manjit@418
That makes no sense. Who are these actors you are talking about? And are you saying that Punjabis and Muslims were/are politically/economically dominant, and therefore thought to be good looking? What about the times they were politically oppressed? Not so HOT anymore, huh
My argument is based on a conjecture : Ethnic, community or family nepotism plays some role in casting male leads in Bollywood. The early studios and families who made their mark on Bollywood were disproportionately Punjabi, and so they cast their own kind. (This isn’t necessarily nefarious btw.) Think of the Kapoors for instance, but there have also been the Dev Anands, the Khannas etc. and some Muslims as well (like Dilip Kumar). Since the 80s, the Muslim underworld has gained tremendous influence in Bollywood, and many male leads have gone to Muslims (again, nothing nefarious in this).
And this has its effect in the real world. My mothers generation grew up thinking Punjabi men were utterly handsome, fell in love with Dev Anand, etc. Recently, my ten year old niece told me, “Khans are dashing.” She couldn’t have made that statement without having seen Bollywood films. The point being the media matters in our perception of beauty/hotness etc.
No, she isn’t desi; her name is stacy;)
Jai and other people who I might’ve inadvertently pissed off,
First, sorry. Then, thanks for your comments
And this…
HAHA priceless! Thanks for that dude. I’ve been trying to tell myself that for the past 2 days. You rock.
Get in line man.
This whole ‘lets analyze why CG isn’t getting approached by desi guys’ business…has it ever occured to anyone including CG that perhaps the men are simply not interested and it has zero to do with her being unattractive to them (which I highly doubt she is) or with the man having some complex about it. Just cause two brown people happen to be in one room doesn’t guarantee that they might be interested in each other for the only reason that they are brown.
….
I think it’s finally over, guys.
430 comments. I wonder if that’s a record.
I think it’s finally over, guys.
Whew. I need a cigarette.
DESITUDE@426
I’m not sure it plays out that way, It’s not like the Khans and Punjabis can be singled out just by looking at them. If your niece didn’t know if someone is a Khan or not, how would they rate their hotness? I don’t find someone hot because I know they are Punjabi or Muslim or some such construct. There are plenty of Punjabis who can pass for a Khan and vice-versa, not to mention non-Khans and non-Punjabis. I do see what you’re saying, but I don’t think it fits quite that neatly or simply. Because in this case the distinction is not as stark as say when it’s black and white. Again this whole thread is discussing a very abstract and nuanced subject. It’s difficult to make broad observations/generalizations about what people find beautiful in India as a whole. There is hardly anything we can say about India as a whole. India is many countries at once. Lets leave the multiplicity intact.
i think most people do not care about color at all when it comes down to it, in love or lust
Sahej (aka the one clearsighted desi guy on this thread),
What’s a nice guy like you doing in a place like this? Come here often?
(Satisfied, boys?)
Thanks, Manish! Finally, an answer to why we find those black men so damn hot. Sorry, I know there’s a much more important argument involving virginity-and-typo-plagued engineers vs. liberated-desi-chicas going on here but all I wanted was a scientific explanation for the hotness of de black men.
As my blonde-haired, blue-eyed mate Lucy said to me, ‘Once you go black, you never go back.’ 😉
JOAT, I totally see your point about the two brown people getting together thing. I’ve got nothing against it, but I think it’s a great thing to have Dr. Yang and Dr. Burke alongside the Huxtables and the whatever-the-Fresh-Prince’s-aunt-and-uncle-were-called on TV.
Honestly, it’s not about those important things like religion or culture or complexion or subconscious imperialism complexes. It’s all about the LUST 🙂
But ABCD women (and men) who think that way, fail to realize that US society ultimately treats them as equally misfitted when push comes to shove, irrespective of accents, style of dress, and, how many non-desi’s they’ve…
🙂
but check it, you’d need to come with a lot more than that ;-). impress me with a new idea or show me a new dance step! Think Nelly Furtado!
“I don’t find someone hot because I know they are Punjabi or Muslim or some such construct. There are plenty of Punjabis who can pass for a Khan and vice-versa, not to mention non-Khans and non-Punjabis.”
When did Khans become a separate ethnicity? Many Khans are Punjabi. And more than half of Punjabis are Muslims.
It’s a two way street man. Women experience this shit from men as well. Yesterday I went with a friend to a MBA Alumni event, had never been to one before and as you can imagine in NYC there were tons of desi boys there. What a bunch of snobby elitists these guys were. Ugh total turnoff. The namedropping of people and companies and schools and places. Such bullshit pretentious shit you wonder if they ever look at themselves in the mirror and introspect. I mean for petes sake being 30+ and bragging should be outlawed. IMO in NYC every desi is an overachiever. I think it’s splendid. But when you feel the need to talk about it me thinks you’ve got some serious insecurity issues. Luckily I did meet a few nice Indian boys and what do you know they are outsiders from Canada! Figures.
I think that’s a bit too extreme. We aren’t talking about angry teenagers here. We are talking about adults who have usually by 25-30 resolved these ‘identity’ issues (not that the struggle goes away) and have figured out where they stand and who they are.
Jane:
I used to think people in LA did this more, but I guess NYC takes the blue ribbon.
Re: post #437
I think it’s interesting that some people went berserk over the apparent fetishisation/preference for white women amongst some desi men because of the former’s skin colour and perceived greater attractivness, yet apparently it’s acceptable for desi women to make similar statements about black guys…..
Just an observation.
JoAT,
No offense, but what did you expect from an MBA event? I’ve never met a humble B-school grad — especially the men I know who’ve gone to B-school. You picked a poor sample.
IMPERSONATOR ALERT: I did NOT, would NOT, EVER post the NONSENSE that it is in post number 436.
None of the ABCD women I know despise their parents. There may be conflict during their teen years (I mean, almost always), but this conflict does not amount to seeing them as ‘misfits’. That’s such a cruel and unfair charge at ABCD women. Many of us had parents whom we could see suffering in some way or another, either in a bad marriage, or through alienation, homesickness, career struggles etc. We emathized with and supported them; we didn’t add to their misery by despising them.
To the administrator – please delete or change the name associated with post 436.
I think you are confusing ‘lusting’ after an attractive man while not really discriminating against all kinds to ‘only seeking out a certain shade of man’ to be involved with.
I think it’s interesting that some people went berserk over the apparent fetishisation/preference for white women amongst some desi men because of the former’s skin colour and perceived greater attractivness
I think most of that criticism comes from some ugly desi men who get no play from white women.
Oh jeez I’m sorry I had no idea. I’d never been to one before. Will not make that mistake again. It’s still a large pool of men. I’m not generalizing based on that about all men but it’s a big segment of desi men in NYC and can’t be disregarded.
Phew…thank god! 🙂
This reminds me of those cheesy late 80’s, early 90’s action flicks where the villian disguises himself as the good guy, gets into a fist fight, wrestling struggle with the bad guy, and the gun somehow finds its way into the girl’s hands. Know what I’m talking about? So she picks it up, trembles with the gun in her hand. and the two guys argue:
“I’m the real Dash Kincaid! he tried to kill me!”
“No, I’m the real Dash, shoot him!”
One’s personality keeps growing and changing.
Earlier in my career, I did look at myself in the mirror and introspect. But I was afraid to be true to my own personality. I dropped names, though I knew I was being artificial. Why? To have a career, you must network, so I dropped names.
How did I change? First, I observed that even the so-called successful people had their failures. Second, I was a bungling nincompoop, but I was able to survive. I frequently lost jobs, but found one every time. Third, I came across a CEO of a small company who asked me “What’s your style?” The question made a tremendous impression on me. This CEO was willing to accept that employees come with different personalities!
You need to survive a crisis to develop a sense of security. The crisis need not happen before 30.
The person who did that has been banned and the comments in question have been deleted.
Impersonating another commenter is not only imbecilic and vile, it’s also obvious. News flash: Blog administrators can check IPs. If you are found impersonating another commenter, you are immediately banned.
Chitrangada, sorry you had to deal with this. There are some idiots out there.
Maybe; it sounded to me a little like finding black guys attractive just because they’re black — either the image or the skin colour/general physical appearance/demeanour — which isn’t that different from corresponding objectifications of (and generalisations about) white women by desi guys.
Again, this is just an observation on my part — both of these scenarios do happen quite often amongst both desi women and men respectively (yes here in the UK too). As I said earlier, personally I don’t care who anyone fancies as long as nobody is being mistreated, either the 2 people involved in the (actual or potential) relationship or other people deemed by the suitor to be less attractive (for whatever reason).