Since I don’t watch these television shows, it’s a bit dicey to comment on the spate of shows featuring romances between black men and asian women, so I’ll let Rinku Sen do it for me: 
The sugary romance between the excessively noble characters played by Parminder Nagra and Shafiq Atkins on ER follows the much hotter one between Ming Na Wen and Mekhi Phifer that ended two seasons ago. GreyÂ’s Anatomy features Sandra Oh in an up-and-down relationship with Isaiah Washington.
What accounts for such interest? ItÂ’s as though these couples have been pouring out of medical schools and producers decided to capture the trend.
The representations tread the line between cultural authenticity, sometimes considered stereotype, and colorblindness. The women exhibit some level of conflict with their cultures and are slightly neurotic: Ming Na dreaded telling her immigrant parents that she was having a baby out of wedlock; Nagra quit her job in a bout of rebellion against family expectation to work as a convenience store clerk. The men are dangerous but tender. Phifer grew up without a father and has a temper; Gallant went off to serve in Iraq. I did laugh at the effort to bridge cultures, though, when NagraÂ’s character got married wearing a white sari. White is the Hindu color of mourning.(link)
If it’s on TV, is it a reflection of a real sociological trend, or simply a convenient image of happy multiculturalism from television fantasy-land? Sen’s article gets into some sociological explanations for the phenomenon, none of which are terribly convincing (I don’t think these romances have much to do with “American Empire” or colonialism). But she does argue that it goes beyond “submissive Asian woman”/”sexualized black man” stereotypes:
HamamotoÂ’s theory would suggest that such a preference was grounded in a sexual stereotype of submissive Asian women. I am familiar with our so-called seductress image. My Asian girlfriends and I spent our college years snottily rejecting the few white men who came around as “rice lovers.” While I did experience an American man mentioning the Kama Sutra within five minutes of meeting me recently in New York, my adolescent self-image was much closer to nerd than slut. To see all these Asian women who might also have been high-school nerds paired up with the most sexualized actors in American culture has been, I will admit it, a thrill. However, in real life, Asian women and Black men donÂ’t get to be both equally sexy and smart. “ItÂ’s easier for a Black man to get his foot in the door when heÂ’s with me,” said Aarti, “especially if weÂ’re working.”(link)
Class dynamics may be important in the appeal of Asians to some African Americans. And the “bad boy” image (stereotype) may make people of African descent more attractive to children of immigrants traditionally considered too studious and repressed (spelling bee/ math team champions) to be generally attractive.
Or maybe not: since there are no hard statistics, this could be just another Dubious Trend Story in line with infamous New York Times stories about baby gyms in Manhattan, or Ivy League women who decide to drop out of the rat race to become trophy wives. The next time you see an East or South Asian woman dating a black man … it may simply be that they are two people who happened to meet, and fall in love — irrespective of Parminder Nagra, and sociology be damned.
(Incidentally, for Bollywood fans, guess who played Nagra’s parents in a recent episode? Anupam and Kirron Kher, of course.)
“You may be light-skinned – I don’t know – but I’m willing to guess that one look at your nose, eyes, lips, and perhaps your hair quickly indicates that you do not fit the nordic ideal that you so love.”
Isn’t that from Toni Morrison’s, The Bluest Eye?
I actually agree with the stuff you cats are saying, but the shit you’re saying applies for women too. I won’t buy this “Indian guys won’t approach me therefore I think they’re ball-less, losers, small-dicked, etc.. etc..” nonsense. Women get tugged and pulled by the same media and social reality, I’m not saying you’ve denied it in your posts, but I’m just making sure you and others realize it.
so can anyone here define WASP in the popular sense as opposed to the official sense?(ie and correct me if I’m wrong , someone of scots-irish(assuming of course thery r protestant heritage which they generally are) from appalachia might be considered WASP in popular culture but not officially)
“Why do we think we’re being “open-minded” solely because we’re the only desi in the room?
And the corollary, why do we assume that just because a scene is racially somewhat “mixed”, the room is filled with diverse attitudes and personalities and open minds?”
Yeti, your comments could have been written about some men in my family. They have married white women and think that they are more progressive in their thinking because of this. One of them told me how someone’s Diwali party was “too desi” and not “mixed” enough. Isn’t this odd- Diwali is a desi festival so what’s the big deal if more desis than non-desis are invited?
It may or may not be true that our sexual attraction is determined by human relations of domination, like those underlying colonialism; but it is certainly true that this thesis is not affirmed by the bodily desires of all concerned.
BrooklynBrown’s frustration with Vijay Prassad is a case in point. Only those who’ve forgotten the dark and complex role of our Dionysian nature would think it possible to refashion human desire to make it compatible with our preconceived notions of social justice. Prassad’s predicament reminds me of male radical feminists who believe pornography represents a vile subordination of women, but still find themselves aroused by it.
I suspect your project to emancipate desi lust from the superstructure of white privilege (presumably thru various sessions of consciousness-raising) will be only slightly more successful than the one trying to cure individuals from homosexuality.
The parallels here are mind boggling to me. From the outside looking in, things seem worse in the brown community than in the black one. I wonder if a poll was done, would desi men be more likely to pick a favorite white celebrity or a brown one. I doubt black men would pick a white celeb in large numbers. I think the thing that just really bothers me (and probably many others) is when people speak of their “preferences” as if its only natural to end up strongly desiring something so foreign.
I second Manju’s last paragraph. I learned very early to not get stuck on men who don’t find my particular aesthetic pleasing. I’ve met lots of guys of many races that will always pick the blonde/blue combo as if no other type of beauty exists. But at the end of the day, it doesn’t matter how that “preference” was born; people are still going to like what they like. And it still won’t be you.
With a world full of SO many types of beautiful people, I cannot understand why anyone would want to deprive themselves of ANY of those options.
You can’t separate media and social reality from your own needs and desires. I hope we don’t have to argue how pervasive and influential socialization and media are.
I am not ignoring them. I am merely pointing out the fact that its possible to prefer tall well built blonds without being perverted by the media. For example, when I was in my teens, I used to love the tall, thin Somalian/Sudanese women who were coming into the US as refugees. Likewise, it is possible that my current preference for tall germanic blonds is not a product of media pressure. Some people here believe thats an impossibility. I disagree.
I don’t even think that most Indian men even feel entitled to be with a white women without having first reached a certain status level.
You are wrong. Are you like one of those black women who become enraged when they see a black man with a white woman? Hopefully I will never meet you when I am with my wife.
I’d like to make a quick couple of comments here –
If we’re talking about dating, my guess is that over 90% of decisions to ask someone out as well as the decisions to accept or decline (directly or indirectly) are made on the basis of perceived attractiveness alone. In such a situation, how can we expect racism to not factor in. In my limited experience in the US (having lived here for about 6 years as, I’ve just learnt here, an unpopular stereotype), I’ve found that racism, atleast in the nice little liberal college town I’ve lived in, is more implicit than explicit. I’ve come across people who, either consciously or subconsciously, are racist to varying extents in their thinking, but try hard to not act on it. I find it very hard to accuse such people of racism. And in the same vein, when the women of this type enjoy my conversation but decline any invitations (with polite lies, for which my ego is extremely grateful), I’m not sure I can accuse them of anything.
I take exception to the notion that desi men are somehow more chauvinistic than men from any other community. I’ll admit it was a view I held too until I actually met more non-Indian men. I feel male-chauvinism (like excessive body hair :)) is not the prerogative of any one race. In my observation, the majority of men of all races are chauvinists to differing extents, but there is a strong correlation between proper education and the acceptance, and indeed espousal, of gender-equality as an important issue. There is a correlation with strong female figures (mostly mothers) in one’s childhoold as well. I’d hate to generalize based on my limited observations (though it’s exactly what most here have been doing), but I’ve found that the African-American men who do respect women do so for the latter reason, whereas the Caucasian men who respect women do so for the former reason. Indian men, atleast those who migrate to the US and conform to the unpopular stereotype, are significantly influenced by both factors (mothers are a major figure in most Indian families, and education, which tends to be fairly progressive in India, is a defining attribute). Therefore, even though the man who believes in gender-equality is still an aberration in every race, these aberrations are less likely to exist in the aforementioned stereotyped Indian men (especially those from the larger cities like Bombay and Bangalore). Then again, maybe it’s just the kind of guys I interact with, given the way I think.
Finally, to the GrownUp woman who was essentially translating her experience with a couple of desi guys into an opinion on more than half a billion desi men, if you still can’t find the problem with what you wrote, I’d say that the reason those desi guys (if they do exist outside your imagination) dumped you wasn’t because they wanted an Aishwarya Rai, but because they wanted someone with a more mature outlook on life.
Okay, that was neither ‘quick’ nor ‘a couple’, but I felt this discussion was lacking a perspective from the much-maligned desi engineer/doctor/MBA types.
I think the number of us desi lawyers is far too small for us to be labelled as conformists.
As someone who has a slight-preference for dating non-desi women over desi women (to the extent that one can generalize about these things — I tend to find women of different shapes, sizes, and colors attractive), I will say this — desi women, on average, walk much more attractively than white women. It is so much more enjoyable walking behind a typical desi woman than walking behind a typical white woman. There’s a reason there isn’t an English equivalent for kya chaal hai! 😉
It may or may not be true that our sexual attraction is determined by human relations of domination, like those underlying colonialism; but it is certainly true that this thesis is not affirmed by the bodily desires of all concerned.
In ancient Indian literature, the yavanas (greeks) and other mlechhas (foreigners) are hardly praised for their beauty (though there were certainly yavana courtesans in ancient Indian harems). When the poets judged Indians themselves, fair skin isn’t a precondition for beauty either, though its praised here and there. In the Tamil epics, its hardly mentioned at all. Ancient Indians seem much more obsessed with a buxomy physique -eg., sweltering hips and breasts.
In the old folk songs of Kerala, especially those of North Kerala called “vadakkan paaTTu,” beautiful women are often depicted as having a complexion like that of the Wayanadan turmeric when it is cut(“Wayanadan manjal muricha pole”). The turmeric of Wayanad, when cut, reveals an off-white colour, a white with a hint of a very pale yellow — a complexion we normally expect of Chinese or Korean women, but not so widespread among the women of Kerala.
And I suspect if that China becomes central to world order, some of us may be extolling Chinese beauty. 🙂
I think the idea that Punjabi males are more handsome has much to do with the fact that the early film industry was dominated by Punjabis who frequently placed Punjabi men in lead roles. Now Muslims have much more influence in films, and we see very many Muslim male leads. Yes the economic and political “domination” is operative in our perception of beauty, though it may not be everything.
Do Punjabi men look different from Muslim men? Just curious.
Al Mujahid for debauchery said:
Let me get it straight – you used to fetishize East African women (specifically refugees, apparently), and now you fetishize white women (while having knocked Black women down to the dumpster with desi women). Ok, that’s ok. I understand now. It makes perfect sense! Just as long as desi women stay at the bottom of the heap right? Tell me, when did this shift from one fetish to another miraculously occur?
Black and brown women are fetishized and sexualized all the time – in a particularly violent and dehumanizing way. on the flip side, white women and men are placed on a pedestal for sexual worship. … There’s a difference, in that white women and men benefit from this worship whereas women (and men) of color lose, but you’re still on the same end of the continuum. Just because you had a fetish for Black women at some point doesn’t mean anything about your fundamentally bogus view.
What I don’t understand is, why do you feel such a need to fight for it? You do realize that your sexual views are the dominant ones in this society – possibly globally? Yet, you find it so deeply upsetting when an alternate is expressed. Believe me, mine and americangirl‘s and others’ is not the majority POV. Most of the white dominated world agress with you, that white Nordic women are the ultimate expression of female beauty. It’s funny how people with the most dominant viewpoints are the most offended when those are challenged in the smallest way.
Americangirl said:
I think Al needs to read this one again. Very insightful comment.
Manju wrote:
This is a disingenuous confounding of two completely different and diametrically opposed issues. If you believe that the process of decolonizing the mind (as you yourself seem to articulate it) is equivalent to the oppressive notion of “curing homosexuality”, you’re desperately confused. Either that, or you’re a total nihilist who believes that change in human beings is a meaningless prospect, so why f-in’ bother.
I believe in change because I and other desi people I know have changed. Simple as that. And it didn’t take a miracle, or some bullshit unintelligible pseudo-leftist mental masturbation to do so. It was just living and talking and thinking, like any other person. If someone as stubborn and obnoxiously opinionated as me can think critically about his life and change his mind about things, I think anyone can.
As an aside, this discussion of what types of men/women we prefer reminds me of this classic from The Onion.
Correction: “…Therefore, even though the man who believes in gender-equality is still an aberration in every race, these aberrations are more likely to exist in the aforementioned stereotyped Indian men…”
Yeti:
I understand your passion and pain because it seems you feel as strongly about this issue as I do about (in my perception) the strangling of Indian languages by English…and like you, I wonder why other people just don’t get it. It seems we both consider our respective pet peeves to be a form of mental colonisation. Yet, as far as the issue at hand is concerned, I LIKE my preferences in terms of female beauty and have no desire to change them. In fact if my (hypothetical) future sons have the same preferences, I’d have no problem with that.
Yeti, this is excellent bro.
For a second think about it though, there’s something wrong with specifically unapproving of desi women if you’re a desi man.
And I refuse to believe people here have never met a desi of he opposite sex who was knock-out hot
This discussion brings to mind a talk I once had with an ex, when after much interrogation he confessed I didn’t have the body type he had always chased after. This was a puzzle to me, because the guy was always all over me, totally devoted, told me I was the sexiest woman he’d ever been with, we had amazing sex etc. When I told him this, he replied: “Yeah, but you don’t fall in love with a body type.”
Similarly, you don’t fall in love with a beauty/sexual preference. You fall in love with a whole person, who often enough appears at an unexpected and inconvenient moment, in an unexpected, and quite often inconvenient, package.
While I’ve dated men of different races, the three serious relationships I’ve had have been with white men. But I would NEVER say I have a preference for white men – all races have to-die-for sexy men (except maybe Pygmy Islanders). What bothers me in these whitey-lovin desi guys is the fact that they refuse to see the beauty in all races – it is deeply racist (not to mention deeply sexist – all you see in a woman is her complexion, eye colour, hair colour??).
Lastly, Dert: Grow up. Are you bloody twelve years old?? Men chase, women choose. Sometimes women chase, but not often – why would they? If the mountain comes to Mahomet, why the hell would Mahomet go to the mountain? And before someone starts singing a dirge for neglected desi women, let me just say that I do not know of a single desi girl who’s suffered from a lack of male attention. Trust me, we’re appreciated – just not by desi guys, apparently.
Nice last line Dert. You’re a class act. Notice you didn’t make any ugly comments about the desi guys on here ‘banging’ whiteys. Subtext: Indian men who like their women white are simply exercising their aesthetic preferences, but Indian women who date white are whores. Yawn.
You obviously aren’t getting it, so here it is – simple enough for a twelve year old.
An average guy walks into a bar. By the end of the night, how many women do you think have hit on him? Well, multiply that number by ten and you have the amount of guys who’ve hit on an average girl walking into the same bar. Women don’t have to work for it. And much as it would be nice to have a desi guy, I don’t want a desi guy so much that if a great black latino white whatever guy materializes, I’m going to drop him and start working for it to get the desi.
oh dert, and chitrangada, don’t you two see? that you are in love with each other??
source: http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/Studio/5280/inlove.mp3
Note: Threats of violence against another commenter, even in jest or for the sake of argument, are not acceptable.
Yeti: You need to work on your anger/hate issues. Peace.00000000
First of all, if you plan to have your 12 year old go into a bar and observe mating rituals, you’ll be doing us a huge favor by stickin to the anglo-folk. you can even name him Bud Bundy.
Aha! I finally caught on your arguement strategy, you don’t let that little thing called ‘making sense’ get in your way. So let me get this straight, you wouldn’t mind a desi guy, but would never talk to one, because, aw shucks, you’re just so darn popular with everyone else!
Furthermore, you get pissed at the desi guy for not approaching you, just because you “wouldn’t mind” having a desi guy? Jesus F’ing Christ! I hate to tell you, just “not minding” having a desi guy doesn’t give you sufficient reason to be so bitter, pissed, and resentful at them for not approaching you.
If you want it, go for it, if you don’t want it enough to work for it, then stop #($)@#($@ing complaining. That’s the spiel.
Now if you don’t mind, Allison is waiting.
al mujahid for debauchery said:
translation: “Yeti, I ran out of shit to say, and I have no argument. I was surprised that you actually had a coherent standpoint, so now I’m going to pretend that you’re just some raging nutcase chanting ‘kill whitey’. I’m going to shrink away, reassuring everyone with a smug grin and pretending this is all about you and your ‘anger’ and not about multiple people challenging my viewpoint.”
Classic evasion. And you managed to avoid ever offering something substantial, aside from “I just like it, leave me alone guys!” You like arguing until it actually challenges you, don’t you? Then you bail, with the classic cop-out response.
as an example: chitrangada is putting up a much more complex argument and making me think twice, despite my disagreement with her. I guess you’re fulfilling one desi male stereotype for her – guess which one that is?
Dert
Why don’t you stop &*^^%$###! complaining? You were the one who started bitching in the first place about women not ‘courting’ (who the hell but a preadolescent would use that word?) desi men.
Oh, and do something different for Allison tonight. Show her you have some balls and make the first move.
Al Mujahid for debauchery:
I understand that it would be too painful for an Indian man to honestly admitt, that his own self-worth and personal achievements can only partly/wholly be validated by gaining the acceptance of a white woman. I don’t really think it has much to do with white woman but rahter the white man. The logic goes: if a white woman can be interested in me, then I must be just as good as a white man. If this statement makes you angry then it is probably the truth.
You are wrong about me, I am not enraged to see people of different ethnicities and cultures enjoying each other. If being with a white woman makes a man feel good about himself then so be it. I am only concerned when one person boosts their own self-image/esteem at the cost of another individual.
translation: “Yeti, I ran out of shit to say, and I have no argument. I was surprised that you actually had a coherent standpoint, so now I’m going to pretend that you’re just some raging nutcase chanting ‘kill whitey’. I’m going to shrink away, reassuring everyone with a smug grin and pretending this is all about you and your ‘anger’ and not about multiple people challenging my viewpoint.”
Yeti, Yes, you have completely disarmed me with your intellectual prowess and reasoning. I stand naked as I was disrobed by your arguments. Your logic is flawless and thanks to you I will now confront the demons of my colonized mind, perverted by media socialization and fetishes born out of my servililty to the dominant culture.
Classic evasion. And you managed to avoid ever offering something substantial, aside from “I just like it, leave me alone guys!” You like arguing until it actually challenges you, don’t you? Then you bail, with the classic cop-out response.
My feeble and weak mind cannot withstand the withering assault of your challenges. As its 11 p.m. now, please forgive me as I go and worship at the altar of my blond hair, light eyed wife.
Healthy lifestyle tip: Please don’t feed the trolls, lest ye turn trollish yourself.
Yeti,
I hope you’re not referring to me, I have not evaded a single point chitrangada has made. She’s logically reduced to saying I lack balls and am 12 years old, which, ironically, if both were true would actually be such a bad thing.
Actually I really haven’t complained at all. In fact, I can actually appreciate the situation to some degree, but again, posting it for the 100th time, it doesn’t make sense to me for someone to complain about something, and not do anything about it because “men chase women choose.”
Please CG, now tell me more about the male reproductive system.
I understand that it would be too painful for an Indian man to honestly admitt, that his own self-worth and personal achievements can only partly/wholly be validated by gaining the acceptance of a white woman. I don’t really think it has much to do with white woman but rahter the white man. The logic goes: if a white woman can be interested in me, then I must be just as good as a white man. If this statement makes you angry then it is probably the truth.
As you are well aware of how painful it would be for me to find out the ‘truth’ behind why I want to the gain the acceptance of a white woman, why would you bring up this point and make me feel worthless and nervous. After reading the comments posted by you and Yeti, I feel so small and i insignificant. I have lost both my food and sexual appetite. I feel impotent and confused. I am actually contemplating divorcing my wife. As I slowly deconstruct my servile mind (thanks to your posts) I feel like ‘I CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH’.
That is hilarious. LMAO. Sarcasm noted.
Ok, ok, that shit is funny as hell. lol
Chakding, so true. One wills approach while the other resists, then they fight, then they fight with a mediator present (yeti), then they realize that what they have been fighting against is LOWE, sweet LOWE. The rest, as they say, is Sepia Destiny 🙂
Just kidding you two, please carry on, and don’t stop till you’re feeling that LOWE.
Are you girls kidding me!! Most desi guys are know scan every corner of a bar/club and even if the girls looks vaguely desi, at least one of us goes and hits on her. Every time. I’ve even hit on Puerto Ricans , Armenians , Lebanese, and even one Ethiopian girl all in pursuit of the desi chica.
When I first came over around a year ago, I was not comfortable the bar/club scene . It takes time to get used to a mileu where the guys has to quite overtly aggressive to grap a women’s attention. Chitrangada, this MAY explain why you perceive desi guys as not hitting on you: in genral we are not as aggressive as the American guys (at least FOBS). But I agree with one thing you said : The guy HAS to do all the heavy lifting here. There is no other way yaar.
The ego takes a few hits, but (eventually), once you acquire some game, then there will be lot less Friday nights on the couch . Lots of drinking I’ve found is indispensible. And eye contact followed by some dry humping and random making out works better than Hi-How you doin routine :)Seriously.
.
Yeti & AmericanGirl,
Ok, you two settle down, you’ve had your laughs. I agree with many of your points. But to some extent it works the other way too. Minority women tend to gravitate towards white males, not so much for status, but because they also have a Eurocentric-attitude as to what a “man” is and should be, and are equally susceptible to white/mainstream ideals of said manhood. Power also plays a big part, and racialized power imbalances have long been in the fabric of this country, which need not be discussed here.
Some will try and assuage their conscience with rationalizations like “I actually wouldn’t mind a desi guy, but…” when in fact their minds are equally biased away, just like the dude you’ve been having fun with thus far.
And Dert is logically reduced to dismissing me as ‘bitter and resentful’, while referring to me as ‘banging whiteys’. I guess I’m being slotted into two paradigms here: Scorned Woman and Whore.
I started off as puzzled, not resentful (read my initial post). I am somewhat less puzzled now that I have read so many posts by desi men extolling white beauty. Am I offended? Yes. Why? Because while I date and find white men attractive, I’d never rate them as more attractive than desi men. I’d say they’re equal.
According to Dert, desi men should be exempt from average ‘courtship’ rituals as far as desi women are concerned. Desi women who want desi men should drop everything and run in hot pursuit of the precious desi male. All of this sounds disturbingly familiar, sort of like ‘you must treat your husband as your lord’. I wonder if so many desi men hold desi women cheap because of what they witnessed in their own families, amongst their Indian relatives, and the treatment of their sisters at home.
Oh and Dert? I’d never dream of offending your evident virility ( ‘Court me! Court me now!’) by implying you were actually twelve years old. I was referring to your mindset.
Can you feel the love?
That article about dating hierarchy posted by BrooklynBrown is starting to look increasingly significant.
Yeti:
In both cases, you have groups positioning human sexual preferences as morally repulsive sicknesses in need of medical or psychological cure. Now, I’m with you that one group’s goals are righteous while the others are reprehensible; but that doesn’t change the fact that human sexual behavior has proven too elusive to be controlled by abstract morality.
If the social construction of racism is so powerful that it could cause a man to have an unnatural exclusive attraction to white women at the expense of his natural attraction to his own tribe, then why couldn’t a similar anti-gay social construction cure an individual from their natural homosexuality? Yet is doesn’t. Why?
Because deeply ingrained preferences, whether they result from nature or nurture or a combination of both, are too complex to be moralized away. Despite loads of money and intensive therapy, pedophiles, for example, have proven highly resistant to any psychological interference–despite the fact that the behavior is generally considered a result of nurture, which one would assume to be somewhat less resistant than nature. You have even described Al Mujahid for debauchery’s behavior as a fetish, seemingly oblivious to the fact that fetishes are often a result of sexual conditioning and imprinting that goes back to early childhood.
Which is why I think this statement…
…is hopelessly simplistic and ignores the enormously complex causes of human attraction. Even if it were true, and this is a big if, that Al Mujahid for debauchery’s preference could be reduced to a subconscious internalization of racism; to bully him into changing by arguing that a mere awareness of institutional racism is enough, strikes me as not only crude and naive, but also the PC equivalent to curing homosexuality.
Amitabh- just curious…if you find white women more attractive than Indian women, then:
If you were to have a female child with a white woman, would you think of this child as less attractive if she inherited more of your “Indian features”?
Call it personal preference all you want, but you can’t run away from your own genes, and I think this bit of simple logic exposes some of the self-hate issues involved when people mask their dislike of their own ethnic features in those of the oposite sex with the “personal preference” excuse.
First time poster. Interesting discussion. I was directed to this site by an acquaintance. Only thing I have to add is this:
For all those suggesting that brown folks marry white folks out of self-hate, shouldn’t the logical conclusion be that those brown folks should subsequently terminate their relationships.
I make this comment in reference to the classic Dave Chapelle sketch about the blind black KKK leader, Clayton Bigsby, who finally realizes that he is black. Says the narrator at the end of the sketch: “In the past few weeks, Clayton Bigsby accepted the fact that he is a black man. And three days ago, he filed for divorce from his wife. When we asked “Why after 19 years of marriage?” He responded, “Because she’s a nigger lover.”
Manju: First, I’ve been arguing that attraction is complex from jumpstreet. My purpose isn’t to change al, it’s to open the argument up and have it in a public space. I don’t intend to change al. I have no relationship with him such that I could have such a significant impact, nor am I actually so arrogant as to think a word from me will change him or anyone else.
And yes, I get slightly emotional because the topic affects me and others in an emotionally compelling way.
However – your objection to my belief in change still reflects a complete lack of imagination on your part. I argue because it’s important for us to argue about these things publicly so that we can collectively extract whatever we will from it.
And I still believe that people can change. I believe that public debate changes people’s minds or informs them or pisses them off enough to think about whatever issue is being discussed. I don’t really understand your objection to this, aside from the fact that you think I’m trying to “bully” al into changing. At least he could laugh at it. I don’t understand your indignance.
getting sleepy and making slightly unclear statements. to reiterate – I have no illusion of changing al, but I think that debate has a wider impact on people engaged in and witnessing it. I think it stimulates all of us to think critically about the issue. And I believe that people change because of that. I don’t see that as naive.
Hegemonic ideology is raft at Berkeley. Take for example the situation of the human and the squirrel. Humans and squirrels operate in a structural dualism encompassing not only an ecological regime but also a cultural regime. The campus squirrels are colonized subjects, twice or thrice liberated after some free-speech movement that took place somewhere for whatever reason. The sum of the quasi-liberation movements is now a complex arrangement of institutionalized subjugation for the squirrel. Whilst allowing for some repatriation, we humans continue to dominate the squirrels culture, his economics, his politics and blunt his collective social power.
We partitioned for walkways, we privatized for water pipes, we plundered so women can leisurely tan in nothingness on lawns with the intention of luring us men (the externality of course being that it is the squirrels who gawk while us men ignore and carry on studying, awaiting for women o’er yonder, women who shave their armpits) But, what of the squirrels? Are they to be forgotten in this ecological equation? How do we quantify their plight, their loathe for self, their adoration for our women? Do we actually know what it feels like a for squirrel? Isn’t it astonishing that a squirrel would ignore their sister squirrels and prefer our women, proclaiming amour, but really needing to uplift its subjugate state and species? We repress, repress, repress and they relish with sexual rapaciousness. Nevermind the requisite physiological ingenuity for the act, the act itself is not as important as the amount of repression needed to fertilize such facile pathology.
It’s no wonder the squirrels are so violent- we have colonized their space, their id, their ego, their super-ego, and their libido.
So, the question inevitably becomes one of benevolence- do we lack it? Nay, but we are results driven. We strategically plant trees where they once existed, prior to our arrival, and pat ourselves on the back and salute the Diversity gods, the Reparation gods, the gods of Self-Determination on a job well done. Then, in private, we snicker at the Dependency Theory theists and say “Ha! Liberté! Egalité! Fraternité! Hearts, minds, flowers and all that!
And then in a swift stroke of ideological hubris, we concoct the notion of a ‘public good’- defining it before it can be represented, codifying it according to our tautological taxonomy. Then we humans leave it to the economists to jiggle the ‘good’ away from the ‘public’ only to propose a lowering of taxes so as to free the squirrel from his squalor. And we are suprised by their rage!
Some ask if the human/squirrel dualism is a symbiotic relationship? Nay. It’s ecological imperialism sprinkled with a zero-sum internalized identity crisis. We, the conquistadors, don’t fancy them, they fancy us. The world is wretched, the squirrels left as cognitive whores, locked in a spiralling quandary of self-hate and lust for…the hegemon. Vilfredo Pareto eat your heart out. The squirrels will rise.
Just in case it needed any clarification (which it probably didn’t if you’ve read the posts concerned in detail), “Your_Average_Jai” is not me. Although he does make some excellent points.
Anyway, a few more thoughts from me:
Ultimately, it’s nobody else’s damn business who anyone dates and/or marries.
…..Unless they are mistreating their partner in some way, or vice versa.
People have to live with the consequences of their dating & marriage choices, for better or for worse. If they’re in that situation for the “wrong” reasons, at the end of the day they are the ones who have the primary responsibility for their predicament and who will have to deal with the outcome.
Having stepped back and given the matter some further thought, it’s occurred to me that as South Asians have a much greater profile in British society and in the media compared to the US — and, percentage-wise, there are also more of us around, and in more concentrated numbers, especially some of the major cities like London and those in the Midlands — it is perhaps understandable why some desis over in the US may have a bias towards white women (and vice versa in the case of some desi women), especially as South Asians appear to have a different image in the American media and the public consciousness compared to this side of the Atlantic. (Please note: I’m not saying all desis there who prefer white people do so because of these underlying factors & influences). In that sense, it’s not that different to how things were over here about 10-15 years ago. I guess that if desis are not regarded as “sexy” in a certain society and its media, then some desis living in that society will also be influenced by that in their own perception of fellow desis of the opposite sex. I had thought that the increasing infiltration of Bollywood, satellite/cable TV, Indian music videos etc into the diaspora here in the West would have remedied this, but perhaps this may have been comparatively more pronounced here in the UK (although, as I mentioned, there had already beeen a flourishing “British Asian” 2nd-generation cultural and music scene here for a number of years in recent times anyway).
If one is basically going to meet smaller numbers of desis — which, I am led to understand, is often the case over there in America — then that is going to affect one’s perceptions and preferences. Even more so if the desis of the opposite sex you do meet may not look (and/or possibly act) like people regarded as attractive within the majority population and the corresponding images promoted by the local media. As I discussed earlier, this may be different here in Britain because of the much higher North Indian/Pakistani population, where there is a greater ability for guys to pull off the “Latin” look and, also, where there is a considerably larger percentage of desi women who look like the women discussed by Jatt_Denver in post #294 (Mia Maestro, Monica Belluci etc). The influence of Bollywood may or may not be such a major factor, depending on the individual, but the preponderance of Northies here means there isn’t necessarily such a disparity there either, particularly in relation to the increased Westernisation (and, in the case of desi music videos in particular) sexualisation of Indian films and songs, along with the way the people depicted there look and dress. British bhangra videos these days are also pretty similar to the average MTV video, although again the influence of these will depend on the specific viewer — perhaps the raciness sometimes depicted here is just a reflection of the reality of what many 2nd-Gen British desis are like, rather than the other way around.
Are you girls kidding me!! Most desi guys are know scan every corner of a bar/club and even if the girls looks vaguely desi, at least one of us goes and hits on her. Every time. I’ve even hit on Puerto Ricans , Armenians , Lebanese, and even one Ethiopian girl all in pursuit of the desi chica.
I agree. The desi man on white woman thing is greatly overstated. In fact, I think that many desi males are accused of being too insular (racist), and of perenially searching for their own kind. While there is most definitely something to our preferences being framed by the media and power relations, at the end of the day the bonds of culture, shared ethnic and cultural identity are much stronger, which is why most of us keep going back to our own “kind”!
So you say:
See, now this is what I don’t get, I’m willing to acquiesce desi men are tugged and pulled by external media, and mainstream concepts of beauty. Women are too, it’s a plain fact. My 3 year old cousin already has the hots for Disney’s Prince Charming (who, when you think about it, dates sleeping beauty, snow white and belle at the same time, how’s that for fidelity), and guess what he doesn’t have dark skin, and engineering degree and hairy arms. That shit has an effect the female concept of manhood, just admit it and move on.
I wonder if there’s a support group for people who post the same thing over and over again when they know it’s useless. If it does exist, I need to sign up immediately.
First of all, I never once used the word scorned or whore. But every time I say you should “stick to whitey”, you accuse me of calling you one, stating it as subtext, that’s very telling about your personal insecurity, or perceived guilt, or whatever.
12 year old, ball-less guys are literate at least. Because according to you I believe desi males are exempt from “dating/courting/chasing/whatever word makes me look like a 13 year old, and not 12”, but as record shows what I said was…
And if you read my original response, you’ll see it was only a suggestion that you approach the guys you’re interested in, but you say you’d have to push too many white guys out of the way just to see mr. ball-less in the corner, and I say fine, but once again DO NOT COMPLAIN/BE PUZZLED/RESENT not meeting a desi guy when it’s something you don’t really want in the first place. Get me?
What sense does it make to complain that desi guys aren’t chasing you
If this isn’t bitterness I don’t know what is.
And yes, I get slightly emotional because the topic affects me and others in an emotionally compelling way.
Instead of getting emotional, you should do something about it. Here is a good start.
wow Al Mujahid, that link.. Talk about backhanded advertising, haha
VMN Rao:
Interesting question (#338). Well, I like my looks. I’m probably way too narcissistic for my own good as it is. So in my own mind I’d probably be improving my daughter’s looks. But that’s just my bias. Anyway, as Jai pointed out, it’s not only about white women…even within our Indian culture, fair skin and a certain type of facial features are prized…in fact I think a good looking Punjabi woman is in some ways (the nose especially) way better than most white women. Most Indians have much nicer looking eyes than white people do. So it’s not as if I can’t appreciate a good looking Indian. But when you speak of averages, then yes I think the average white woman is better looking than the average Indian woman. For that matter I think the average Punjabi is better looking than the average Gujarati. I know these are not nice things to say and I’m sort of ashamed to put all this out there but I’ve realised you can’t have a discussion like this without stepping on people’s toes. I will try to make this my last comment on this thread.
The Black, Brown, and white spectrum of choice in the dating game was too confusing for me; Celibacy is my new vice! I sit on a solid gold throne wearing brand new leopard-print boxers and gaze at you all with an air of detached superiority;)
OK, I’ll try to make THIS my last comment…I just wanted to add that despite everything I wrote above, in my ideal world I’d still prefer to marry an Indian woman…because looks are not everything…shared culture and background and common set of shared references are also very important.