Since I don’t watch these television shows, it’s a bit dicey to comment on the spate of shows featuring romances between black men and asian women, so I’ll let Rinku Sen do it for me: 
The sugary romance between the excessively noble characters played by Parminder Nagra and Shafiq Atkins on ER follows the much hotter one between Ming Na Wen and Mekhi Phifer that ended two seasons ago. GreyÂ’s Anatomy features Sandra Oh in an up-and-down relationship with Isaiah Washington.
What accounts for such interest? ItÂ’s as though these couples have been pouring out of medical schools and producers decided to capture the trend.
The representations tread the line between cultural authenticity, sometimes considered stereotype, and colorblindness. The women exhibit some level of conflict with their cultures and are slightly neurotic: Ming Na dreaded telling her immigrant parents that she was having a baby out of wedlock; Nagra quit her job in a bout of rebellion against family expectation to work as a convenience store clerk. The men are dangerous but tender. Phifer grew up without a father and has a temper; Gallant went off to serve in Iraq. I did laugh at the effort to bridge cultures, though, when NagraÂ’s character got married wearing a white sari. White is the Hindu color of mourning.(link)
If it’s on TV, is it a reflection of a real sociological trend, or simply a convenient image of happy multiculturalism from television fantasy-land? Sen’s article gets into some sociological explanations for the phenomenon, none of which are terribly convincing (I don’t think these romances have much to do with “American Empire” or colonialism). But she does argue that it goes beyond “submissive Asian woman”/”sexualized black man” stereotypes:
HamamotoÂ’s theory would suggest that such a preference was grounded in a sexual stereotype of submissive Asian women. I am familiar with our so-called seductress image. My Asian girlfriends and I spent our college years snottily rejecting the few white men who came around as “rice lovers.” While I did experience an American man mentioning the Kama Sutra within five minutes of meeting me recently in New York, my adolescent self-image was much closer to nerd than slut. To see all these Asian women who might also have been high-school nerds paired up with the most sexualized actors in American culture has been, I will admit it, a thrill. However, in real life, Asian women and Black men donÂ’t get to be both equally sexy and smart. “ItÂ’s easier for a Black man to get his foot in the door when heÂ’s with me,” said Aarti, “especially if weÂ’re working.”(link)
Class dynamics may be important in the appeal of Asians to some African Americans. And the “bad boy” image (stereotype) may make people of African descent more attractive to children of immigrants traditionally considered too studious and repressed (spelling bee/ math team champions) to be generally attractive.
Or maybe not: since there are no hard statistics, this could be just another Dubious Trend Story in line with infamous New York Times stories about baby gyms in Manhattan, or Ivy League women who decide to drop out of the rat race to become trophy wives. The next time you see an East or South Asian woman dating a black man … it may simply be that they are two people who happened to meet, and fall in love — irrespective of Parminder Nagra, and sociology be damned.
(Incidentally, for Bollywood fans, guess who played Nagra’s parents in a recent episode? Anupam and Kirron Kher, of course.)
So, he’s come out strong against white/colonial hegemony, privelage, what-have-you. With such a background, at the least I’d say it’s surprising and strange he married a white woman… because to some degree he’s buying into the phenom he’s so closely studied and commented on.
Whiteness is a condition and not just an embodied state. It would be strange if he married someone marred by whiteness, who could not see through the white=universal framework that informs the modern world. There are many white people who have cured themselves of that disease.
UberMetroMallu –
You can always come to the Netherlands, where Indians are few and far between and even the majority of those are Punjabi. 😉
Fascinating topic. I think there are also interesting parallels between the norms/trends that govern East/South Asians dating white or black folks and norms that govern Hindu-Muslim relationships in desiland – it is more acceptable for a Hindu/white man to marry a Muslim/Asian woman than the reverse. It’s class and colour overlaid with gender roles. Though there seem to be more black men in the US than black women who marry “out” and the same goes for desi men in the UK. Recently I read some rant by an African American “comedian” against black women who are “too strong” and “masculine” and shouldn’t be surprised when black men prefer to choose from a more docile pool.
I and every desi woman I know in the US has been hit on a lot (I’m talking comments on the street, compliments, guys in bars) by black guys. Agree with the comment above that desi women are close to the “ideal” for black men of the light-skinned black women (ever notice how black celeb males always have lighter-skinned wives, always?) Just like desi matrimonials – if a man has something going for him, he wants the gori slim tall beautiful wife even if it means looking further down the class ladder.
Oh, and to respond to some stuff I just saw:
Filmiholic, John Abraham is NOT “too pretty” to inspire dirty thoughts. I have lots of dirty thoughts about him, thank you very much 😉
On of the people interviewed in the article said: ” A Black person is less likely to be as racist as a white person when it comes to dating an Asian girl. Anda Black person might not feel as oppressed as they would by a white person in their family structure.” Sorry, I disagree. Black folks can be pretty darned protective of “their own” too. One of my close friends who is part Asian dated a black guy once and got some serious hostility from black women for doing so. Afr-Am families do not become open and tolerant and liberal just by virtue of their position as people who are discriminated against – some of them can be downright bigoted too, just as desi families can be towards black folks!
OK, last comment I promise (not caffeinated enough yet) – men back home also have a thing for East Asian women and those who look like them – Nepali girls are considered very desirable as prostitutes. Desi men can exoticize too!
UberMetroMallu,
You could come to the UK. Most desis here are either North Indian (predominantly Gujarati and Punjabi) or Pakistani, with a smaller sprinkling of Bangladeshis and a considerably smaller smattering of South Indians and Sri Lankans.
Or you could try Brazil and Latin America in general. Not many Mallus there as far as I know. Lots of hot women, though 😉
My bad Oneup! The public malignment continues… The use of the word “saved” in that context is so religiously specific that I had imagined that someone who did not agree with the sentiment might have used quotation marks or something to indicate the ambiguity of the term. I don’t typically use it as it’s too imprecise. There are tons of people who are “saved” on whom I wouldn’t waste the time of day. Despite their classification, they are morally degenerate but I digress…
SP, that idea comes up time and time again! It is insulting to all the women concerned, and yet, I’d say the stererotypes probably hold true at least 50% of the time.
True, whiteness is a condition, but I think you trivialize the deep seated nature of that condition. You imply a white person can pop some pills and be “cured” instantly. As history has shown, and continues to show, such is not the case. I know a white woman, very sweet person, is very “into” Hinduism, reads, goes to temple, eats Indian food, is vegetarian, etc… I once told her “You can stop being Indian whenever you want… I don’t have that luxury” She had no clue what I meant, or even comprehended that she existed in a different reality.
It’s for these “cured” whites as you call them, to go into their own communities and educate their masses.
“Cured” of what, exactly? You write as though they are suffering from some ailment.
“Cured” of a white-only worldview. That seems to be a reasonable thing to say.
I do agree that I meet at least some white people who definitely are able to look beyond race, sometimes far more than I can say for myself, I have to admit.
Just because someone is open to certain aspects of a culture, does not mean she’s “cured” of racism towards its people.
As an analogy, just because someone dances salsa, does not mean she’s not prejudiced against latinos.
To be honest though, is this really the stuff of everyday conversations with white people? Sure, I may have some friends who do have a ‘white-only worldview’, but if so the topic is never raised, and I really have no desire to. Partners are obviously a different case – there it certainly is important if they are white, that their worldview isn’t limited by their race.
there’s multiple priviledges around, and i wonder if people need to find the exact priviledge classification in their partner (temporary or long-term) in order to be on the straight and narrow. there’s class – which can account for differences in anything from accent, vocubulary, life experience, hobbies, ability to take vacations, location and setting of choices for leisure activity, aesthetic tastes, and then there’s things like priviledge due to body shape, symetricity of facial features. all that is grist for a mill. i do think its not realistic for people to say, oh i live in a world in which my relationships are blind to all the external factors of my environment, i just see love.
btw, franz fanon was part Tamil as it turns out, and married someone french
there’s multiple priviledges around, and i wonder if people need to find the exact priviledge classification in their partner (temporary or long-term) in order to be on the straight and narrow. there’s class – which can account for differences in anything from accent, vocubulary, life experience, hobbies, ability to take vacations, location and setting of choices for leisure activity, aesthetic tastes, and then there’s things like priviledge due to body shape, symetricity of facial features. all that is grist for a mill. i do think its not realistic for people to say, oh i live in a world in which my relationships are blind to all the external factors of my environment, i just see love.
That’s exactly the point I was making. As an aside, researcher and antiracist Tim Wise has routinely done surveys asking high school and college kids to write down “What do you find beneficial about being your race?” Most minorities write down cultural things, solidarity, overcoming obstacles, etc.. Most white people write down things like , “I walk into a store and I’m NOT followed”, or “I’m NOT searched in the airport” and things like that.
So white people define their essence through a negative. It’s not who they are. It’s who they’re NOT. Therefore, whiteness and racial privelage are one and the same, you can’t separate them. And this is true for every person born of predominent European descent.
No I don’t think white people sit around going “Golly gee, we’re so privelaged, isn’t it cool?” in fact most, out of ignorance, say the opposite. But not discussing race is in ITSELF a privelage. The ability to NOT have to think of it as a cause or root of any issue, or not be reminded of it is in itself a privelage. Coming back to marital pairings, I think it takes a really special and open-minded white person to understand these issues. Someone who’s knee-jerk reaction to every racial discussion isn’t “Oh you’re over-reacting, stop playing the ‘racecard’!”
Just a point – this idea that love is somehow an uncontrollable force of nature is a really problematic mythology. People fall in love with all kinds of people – those who are right for them and those who are utterly wrong for them. I don’t think this is a good counterargument for a critical analysis of desi-white romantic relationships.
A massively important root reason of why racism is horrible is that one is denied one’s humanity and individuality and PINNED into a box. Racism doesn’t just “happen” to people every once in a while, it’s a fact of life for all of us browns. It’s institutional. It’s woven into the very fabric of society – at this point, the very fabric of the world power structure. So we’re not talking from the point of view of “don’t pin me in a box”. We are PINNED in boxes already. Whites are pinned in their own special boxes too – the box of whiteness. That’s reality, that’s where the starting point is.
People make choices about who they want to date or who they want to fall in love with. Any mature definition of love incorporates choice – choosing someone. It’s not arbitrary, it’s not magical. It’s as human a choice as any other.
No offense to the Ha-desis here but I think it’s critical to examine and question (if need be) desi-white relationships. Sex and “love” are some of the most intimate human experiences, and because of this looking at them often cuts to the core of other human issues like oppression etc. Hope this makes sense.
A funny film on racial stereotypes and the dating tribulations of Asian-American men (Obligatory Desi angle: one of the characters is Indian-American): Link
i think being attracted to someone and finding them interesting is not a choice, but deciding to pursue a relationship is a choice. however, that choice is not always a firm choice, but sometimes a thing were you see where things take you and so its never a really bona fide choice. and then we’re assuming we have a plethora of choices, and we choose one over others. its some scary s%%t
“Any mature definition of love incorporates choice – choosing someone. It’s not arbitrary, it’s not magical. It’s as human a choice as any other”
I don’t think falling in love with someone is a choice, the choice is following through on the attraction/interest/love thing. My best friend is engaged to a white guy and when they first started dating, we used to talk all the time about how she thought that she would be more comfortable with a Malayali guy. Her fiance is perfect for her and had he been Malayali, I think she wouldn’t have had to think twice about pursuing something with him. She didn’t doubt that she loved him, she doubted whether she was missing out on some other part of love that involves ethnicity and a shared cultural background. I guess the hard part is just letting go of the idea that love makes everything perfect. I think that happens with every relationship, but the added factor of ethnicity just puts it in more stark terms? I don’t know.
Yeti, I completely agree with your statements, extremely poignant and succinct. Unfortunately, some women will claim that love is an uncontrolable spontaneous force that overwhelms people and that logic/reasoning cannot be a determinant in selecting a suitable mate. It’s perceived as being cold, archaic, and too ‘eastern’. You wouldn’t choose a car by simply going to a dealership and saying, “oh my god, I love that colour; let’s buy it!” without doing proper research. Seeing whether or not it meets your needs(size, reliablity, fuel consumption etc.). But maybe I am just a ‘desi-caveman’ who wants to remove all the ‘fun’ from life 😉
Have to disagree with you one. I can’t say too much about love, but I will say that attraction is a physiological reaction, in fact neurologically speaking, the “attraction” chemicals released in the brain actually turn off logical mechanisms. How else do you explain that TO THIS DAY, Scott Petersen, a man in prison for murdering his wife and child, receives love letters from women who “understand his pain” and wish they had the chance to “fix” him?? Never mind the scores of women that continually fall prey to the “bad boy” syndrome.
Ask any woman what she sees in one of these “non-standard” types, she’ll say “I dunno what it is.. there’s just something about him” Oh yah, that there is flawless logic.
HMF, Well, we were talking about love and long-term relationships. I am aware that attraction is an impulse emotion
I’m Christian and try to date similar but people who use the word “saved” make me nervous, since they also often think like this:
Oh. My. Effing. Something. Indeed.
So are you saying attraction is absent in love and long-term relationships? Or that it triggers it, then fades away? LTR’s that are made through logical decisions is pretty much glorified prostitution, extended over a period of time: “Guy says, I’ll pay for all your bills, you have sex with me multiple times and produce children. And oh yah, you’ll be my ‘wife’ and society will sanction us”
Also, LTRs and love are NOT synonymous believe it or not. What else would account for the 50% divorce rate in the US, and the 90% “We wish we could divorce but can’t because we’ll be publicly castrated” rate in India? But that’s another topic.
HMF, are you an economist? The LTR-as-prostitution view is a pretty common thing in economics, particularly feminist economics. I read this fascinating paper once which tried to answer why prostitution does not seem to follow the ordinary rules of demand-and-supply i.e. why somebody providing such a low-skilled, widely available service ends up commanding a disproportionately high price.
I completely agree that romance, love and LTRs are different beasts which need to be tamed differently. Good points.
Oh no! I thought about using quotes, but being raised in a family that grew up in the black southern bible belt has made the word normal for me. Though I DO think the word can be offensive, I think its use and meaning in the black community takes away some of the edge. At least for me.
On another note, I think its really messed up to say that desi women are ideal for black men just because desi women get hit on a lot. Black men are far more forward than any other race of men; they hit on everyone. INCLUDING black women. Also, the idea that all black women are masculine or too strong is so ridiculous. I strive to be very ladylike and I’d go to the ends of the earth to make my boyfriend happy. I’m not even a vegetarian, but I’ve since learned to make naan from scratch and make plain chickpeas taste like heaven. I generally avoid correcting people on here, but I can’t just sit by and watch the stereotypes fly.
I do agree with SP on one note though, black people aren’t always excited about interracial couplings… though experience has taught my rainbow dating ass that the anger isn’t just from black women.
Finally, I agree with all of this. I think people too often mistake attraction/lust for love and don’t take time to really figure out who that person is. And when they do figure it out and find they don’t actually love THE PERSON (rather than how that person makes them feel), it always seems to be too late (after marriage, and ready for divorce).
Just so we’re all clear on this: If I were to say, “I was disappointed to learn that Bob buys lottery tickets. I mean, he’s a statistician.”, this is not a statement just about Bob. Yes, it’s an expression of disappointment about Bob in particular but the clear subtext is that no one should play the lottery and that the disappointment arises from the fact that Bob in particular should know better.
And, yes, if you suggest that someone’s father should not have married her mother because she was white then you can probably expect that person to be rather pissed off. Even to resent the shit out of it.
Here’s the flaw in your logic. You’re choosing an act (winning the lottery) which has clear, lucid scientific evidence against it. So the subtext exists in that case. But Vijay Prasad is a political author, writing his OPINIONS (some of which I’ve quoted already), so the criticism/surprise/whatever that’s levied against him, applies to him only.
Now, someone overly sensitive to the issue may read into it that their parents are being criticized or whatever, but I think it’s a bit reactionary.
I just want to add one thing: I for one think that Indians can be just as racist as “whites” ,against blacks, latinos and yes, whites. Lets be real here.
As for interracial relationships. I think it’s the way to go for South Asian women. Frankly, an Indian guy who happens to be a tad good looking with a good job and some intellect (hint: fellas, a degree does not signify intellect), wants a model or an Aishwarya Rai for a wife…that type is totally insufferable. It goes to explain why increasingly South Asian women are drawn to non-Indians. I dated Indians all along except the past couple of years, which have been the best two years of my life.
This race BS is never going to end unless we stop looking at it and others that way. Sometimes it’s thrust upon you, other times, it’s your perspective…
One up: “On another note, I think its really messed up to say that desi women are ideal for black men just because desi women get hit on a lot. Black men are far more forward than any other race of men; they hit on everyone. INCLUDING black women. Also, the idea that all black women are masculine or too strong is so ridiculous.”
If you bother to read closely you will see that I do not at all suggest that desi women are “ideal” for black men – I was saying that all the desi women I know have been hit on a lot by black men. Our white girl friends look puzzled when we talk about this, and say they don’t get those comments.
I agree with you completely that the idea of black women being masculine is ridiculous, and it’s infuriating that the men who make those remarks get away with that kind of sexism.
Meena,
Mmmmm interesting; will have to explore that option. When IÂ’m there, Yif you aar syingle aand reddy to myingle throw me youvar number;)
Jai, I used to live in London some years ago; there were lots of Mallus there! Perhaps you mean other places in the UK which aren’t so cosmopolitan. Also, I think Sri Lankans look a lot like South Indians, and with their strong presence, they have killed any remote shot that I had at being exotic in the UK:)
By exotic, I mean: speaking like my dad and chicks swooning like they do when Antonio Bandares opens his mouth! I want mainstream “cool” culture embracing the Mohanlal Moustache as a rival to the current facial hair fad that resembles a G-string hung out to dry! I want Sambar and Aviyal to be more up-market than Sushi and Foie Gras put together. I want urban youth to quit strutting around like Black Gangsters and start working on shaking their heads to enhance their “street credo”. I want, erm, to go to the gym and work out all this pent up aggression. Now:)
Peace
Oneup somewhere earlier in this blog, you asked if there ere any desi men dating black women… I guess I am your first responder to that. Let me make some general statements about this specific blog itself and then move to more personal experiences/philosophies.
I think that interracial/intercultural dating is a growing trend in various societies and here in US which to me reflects the level of curiosity in the “other” which exists in our society. I stated intercultural because it is not just a physical relationship. There are deep levels of intellectual, philosophical, and moral affinities which exist. All these mixed with cultural and physical ingredients makeup two personalities which attract like… salt and spice. Unfortunately I cannot make comparisons same-race/cultural dating of better or worse as I have never been involved with an Indian woman. I was raised in a town which was predominantly white/black and went to all white schools until college.. thank God for higher education.
I think this is a pretty common experience of the Indian in America/Canada/Europe. So this leaves one in a dilemma of whether he should expose himself to other communities beyond the white one he grew up in, or if he should stay at a certain comfort level within that majority community. For Indians of my generation who I know personally (sadly not true for previous generations) there is a natural open-mindedness and ability to accept cultural differences.
I have dated women across the spectrum and have found that it is not the physical, religous, cultural uniqueness that takes the relationship to a higher level. -Its the innate ability of the connection you have to promote itself amidst static it may pick up externally or internally-. We as a couple look back at times we have had to overcome obstacles and differences and laugh at them, for they are either trivial after all or they do not stand the test of time within the momentum of our relationship.
Black men/Asian women hmmm that grabs my attention if the girl is a hottie. I see many more White men/Asian women couples than Id like. Sorry just being honest. I see more and more White man/Black women couples. And some Latino men/Black women couples, but very few Asian men/Black women couples.
I think black women are scrutinized either too much or pretty much ignored in society. Desi men question their place in society due to their invisibility within society. Desi men lack large numbers to creat our own space and are placed in a society which is literally black and white with a latino sidekick and are forced almost to allign ourselves.
Should I comment any further I will pretty much be talking out of my ass. There is way too much diversity within Indian and the larger South Asian cultures for me to make any more general statements… it boggles my mind.
Whoa dude/dudette, first of all, I have no clue why you put whites in quotes the first time. But it’s clear you have a very immature understanding of racism. Racism implies a power difference, and institutional power is what we normally mean. So yes, anyone can prejudge anyone, but to act on that requires power. Indians (or any minority for that matter) can’t on the whole deny white people jobs, loans, housing, etc… Indians can play into the white superiority by “towing the line”, which basically says, “revile blacks and hispanics, and you’ll be above them, but not above us” This is a main point in Vijay Prasad’s book.
You can’t solve a problem by ignoring it.
I’m glad Disney has succeeded in convincing you Indian guys are useless, and you’ve found happiness despite not resembling Aishwarya.
UberMetroMallu,
Maybe things have changed since you lived here (a hell of a lot has happened over the last 10-15 years) or maybe we just move in different circles. I’ve lived in the London area for most of my life and, although one does bump into South Indians & Sri Lankans on a fairly regular basis, the majority of desis both in London and the UK as a whole are from the northern and western (and northwestern) corners of the subcontinent. This is also reflected in the “culture” of British Asian society as whole, the dominant influence on which (at least amongst the 2nd-generation) is Punjabi culture (or a hybridised UK/Western-specific version of it).
So in that sense, you might still be quite “exotic” here, amongst desis as a whole and of course amongst the wider population 😉
The UK probably isn’t the best place to live if one prefers a Southie vibe to the dominant Northie ambience here 😉
I’ve noticed I’ve said “as a whole” far too many times in post #234. I also use smiley faces too much. As a whole. Aaargh, I can’t stop 😉
On a more serious note…..
GrownUP,
I would say that Indians can be worse than pretty much everyone else in this regard. More the case amongst the older generation, though, although it can sometimes continue amongst the younger crowd too.
Well, there’s a difference between a guy behaving like this because he thinks he “deserves” such a woman, and exercising this option just because he is actually able to attract the kind of women he likes (the model type or whatever). The former is driven by ego and not the best way to go. The latter is perhaps just making lemonade when life offers one lemons (in the positive sense).
Also, many Indian women also behave exactly the same way when they are in the reverse situation. There are huge numbers of younger-generation Indian women here in the UK — especially in London (where this tendency appears to be particularly pronounced) — who have exhorbitantly, and to some extent unrealistically, high expectations — indeed, “demands” — regarding what kind of guy they want to be with. There are plenty of nice Indian girls around too, of course, but it’s a very common experience for desi guys here to find that far too many these days are significantly more demanding, high-maintenance, and more opportunitistic compared to their white sisters.
However…..
Of course; it’s common sense that this would happen and a natural consequence of Person A finding she is mistreated in Community X (for varying reasons) but is more valued amongst men in Community Y (and perhaps experiences less hassle in the latter in several ways).
Anyway,
Other fictional mixed-race couples in well-known TV shows:
-Turk (black) and Carla (Hispanic) in Scrubs. -Matt Santos (Hispanic) and his wife (white) in The West Wing.
Relatively little attention is drawn to the interracial nature of these relationships in these shows.
You can’t deny that a lot of people in our community make a lot out of having financial success. When people’s parents and friends start saying, “oh you have to meet X person, he/she is a wonderful poet/writer/musician/record store clerk with a great side gig tutoring kids/similiar” then maybe we won’t have so much of this problem of supposedly bad desi men. They/we are only going by what our overall culture is telling us is important.
I agree wholeheartedly with this comment: “Frankly, an Indian guy who happens to be a tad good looking with a good job and some intellect (hint: fellas, a degree does not signify intellect), wants a model or an Aishwarya Rai for a wife…that type is totally insufferable”
I also agree with the comment about ambitious Indian women for whom only a good-looking banker will do – I know plenty of those (they usually want said banker to give them a great lifestyle while they pursue their heart’s desire) – but given desi gender dynamics whereby a man can wait much longer than a woman (and go further down the class ladder) to get the tallslimhomelygori of his dreams, the woman’s sell-by date is usually 30 and she is less likely to hold out.
To get back to the topic at hand – any desi men here ever dated an African American woman? Would you ever?
The desi marriage ethic (in arranged marriages as well as among those who find their own partner but have conventional expectations about gender roles) is largely to blame for producing these two not-very-likeable sorts of men and women, who try to get as much as they can from a partner (looks for money, usually) and play hard-ball as well as or better than a NYC renter.
Having said that, I do find folks opening up to the idea that not everyone wants the banker, and some of us may want a sensitive intellectual musician type too. Desi men, believe me, there are desi women who crave this type and often look elsewhere for it because it’s so hard to find a desi boy who is something other than a banker/engineer/MBA/software type.
There’s nothing wrong with someone looking elsewhere for a person they find compatible. it annoys that someone says they are dating a person of another identity is rejecting specifically indian people. that does not follow in a logical sense but its something almost designed to cause hurt
I’m glad that part of this entire thread has included desis venting about how they hate dating other desis, and playing up the negative, horrible stereotypes that both emasculate and exotify desi men and women, respectively. Thanks, brothers and sisters! I bet the three desi people you dated seriously are really representative of all desis. Good to know that you’ve bought into everything this racist society wants you to. You really are great representatives of our community, and I’m proud.
Why is it that some desis I know who are in relationships with non-desis – particularly with whites – seem to consistently extol the virtues of non-desis as a counterpoint to the negative quality of desis, despite the fact that, logically speaking, they have sampled a statistically insignificant portion of the one billion plus desis on the planet?
Yes, I understand, there’s going to be self-haters everywhere, doesn’t mean every desi person with a white person is self-hating, blah blah blah (not going to attempt to argue that one). My issue is that when it does appear, it’s not anomalous. It reflects larger cultural values in this society. And it appears too often for my comfort.
Why is it that your bad experiences as a college freshman are your excuse for forever despising desi men/women? And yet, when you see racism all around you, you turn the other cheek and say “they’re not all like that”? Makes no sense to me.
And I agree with this analysis of racism. It’s a system. We don’t have power in that system, not in this context.
Just to add something for comprehensiveness’ sake – the stereotypes don’t just exotify desi women, but vilify and uglify them as well. As seen in the comments of this jerk. Very, very obnoxious.
Well, I’m a desi man who thinks desi women are beautiful, dammit! We don’t affirm ourselves enough.
if you’re asking specific dating history, i’m not getting into my specific dating history (although it would take only a couple lines at most). mostly because its no one else’s business. if you’re asking whether there are desi men who would date people of other ethnicities, including african american people; yes
Yeti – some of us are comfortable enough with our identity and culture to not feel the need to circle the wagons and jump all our “brothers and sisters” and worry about being “self-hating” when we find fault with or are clear-eyed about our own. None of us is going to have dated a statistically significant percentage of either desis or other ethnicities (unless we are Samantha Jones), so the experiences and observations of anyone here are as valid as yours.
I have dated both desis and others and there’s good and bad with all, obviously. There are faults that one can change and that one cannot, and sometimes the most deep-seated issues are those that one has learned early in life or that are culturally reinforced. If I have negative experiences with, say, a white guy, there will be elements that I can’t deal with that seem very normal to him because of the way he was brought up – and I am then within my rights to say “that’s something about him that is not going to change and that I can’t deal with.” Same goes for desi men.
There are lots of reasons why I would love to be with a desi man, things we’d have in common, etc, and if I can point to those things as reasons why I have an ethnic preference in dating, I should also be able to point to the negatives of dating desis too. With the caveat of course that generalizations are always limited, there are lots of people of other ethnicities who are much more interested in Indian culture or politics than many very mainstream-Americanized desis, many desi men who are interested in art and politics and are not conformist (though, IME, this doesn’t always exclude the possibility that they still think they are the raja-betas of the house) and conversely many mainstream-American-white-guys who are neanderthals in their perspectives on women.
To comment only on the generalization in this, not personally on you SP.
Here is another perspective on a few things though, mostly in the spirit of replying back to something i am sure other people have thought. for one thing, the conformity that some desi men have is importantly belied by the fact, we are brown. Desi men may seem to be conforming, and may indeed succeed, but you can not ignore that we are also brown skinned, and thus all of us have had many experiences when we were not conforming. To deny this is to deny some painful events that are rites of passage for most if not all desi men, even the most conformist.
also, i find it problematic to assume desi men in general have less well-developed senses of gender equality. It was our parents who were socialized in a different circumstance, but for the most part desi men in the US seem fairly similiar to other men socialized in the same environment. Maybe in strictly desi-setting, some of the old ways creep in
Sahej, I should have noted that the desi men I am referring too were mostly brought up in the motherland (like me) – American desis are, I think, different in a lot of ways, usually good ways. There is still a tendency for desi parents to socialize their sons in ways that makes it hard for a woman who wants a more gender-equal relationship to deal with, however. And even though I know there are probably lots of perfectly nice and feminist desi men out there, I can’t think of any that I have actually met, to be honest. I wonder if other desi women feel the same way.
The conformity I was referring to was the doctor-lawyer-engineer-MBA track, not conformism in general, btw.
Sahej,
It’s not just the money, it’s the status too. Yes money does confer status (generally), but some professions (albeit high-paying) have more status than others which pay higher.
It depends on the individual woman, of course. Some will target the doctor (more status, less money — at least here in the UK), others will target the banker (less status compared to the doctor, significantly more money, especially in the mid-to-long term). I suspect the average Indian parent would have the first preference for the doctor, although the daughter may or may not agree (especially as the banker is still relatively “unconventional/non-conformist” here in the UK, and has the greater “glamour factor”, both of which may be plus points from the perspective of the Indian woman who doesn’t want to be straightjacketed into another stereotype).
SP,
Absolutely spot-on. This is a result of excessive commodification and objectification of both the man and the woman — they’re almost literally seen as possessions (some would also say trophies) — and, ironically, this attitude is perpetuated by many younger desis who may regard themselves as being fairly non-conformist. They’re basically perpetuating a (negative) arranged marriage viewpoint and approach in a “love marriage” scenario.
What about desi boys who actually fall into both of the aforementioned categories ?
Jai whistles innocently
Sahej (again),
I guess it depends on why they’re doing it. Sometimes it may be because they want to get away from the more conservative and constricting elements of desi culture.
In other cases, I agree that it’s basically just prejudice. I’ve met Indian women professionally (and have known of others via social circles) who will specifically avoid dating Indian guys full-stop (and will not socialise with them either, beyond a certain point), even if their own female friends are all/predominantly Indian/South Asian. They make a lot of negative assumptions about the guy just because he’s Indian — yet they will let white and black guys practically get away with murder when they interact with them.
I actually never asked that, but thanks for your response 🙂 I’ve always thought it strange when people ask questions like that. I’m not so much concerned with whether or not desi men in general date black women. More important to me is whether or not a specific individual is willing to date me, another individual.
I did misread your post… but at the same time, I disagree that the “ideal” for most black men is light skinned just because you see a small number of celebrity couples who fit the bill.
This seems to be the default arguement for a lot of interracial dating. The type of thinking that makes an act that might seem more “progressive” seem like more of the same ol’ s**t. Stereotypes/generalizations can be good SOMETIMES for just generalizing about your safety, your dating choices, your interactions with people; but it’d be nice if we all could push those stereotypes aside for just enough time to actually get to know each other first.
Awww c’mon, Engineers have hearts too!
If only black men were “plagued” with this type of conformity… My boyfriend is typical in this way I suppose. But does a person’s career track dictate what all other aspects of his personality should be?
Yeah, like women would be just falling over themselves trying to date bloggers instead 🙂