Since I don’t watch these television shows, it’s a bit dicey to comment on the spate of shows featuring romances between black men and asian women, so I’ll let Rinku Sen do it for me: 
The sugary romance between the excessively noble characters played by Parminder Nagra and Shafiq Atkins on ER follows the much hotter one between Ming Na Wen and Mekhi Phifer that ended two seasons ago. GreyÂ’s Anatomy features Sandra Oh in an up-and-down relationship with Isaiah Washington.
What accounts for such interest? ItÂ’s as though these couples have been pouring out of medical schools and producers decided to capture the trend.
The representations tread the line between cultural authenticity, sometimes considered stereotype, and colorblindness. The women exhibit some level of conflict with their cultures and are slightly neurotic: Ming Na dreaded telling her immigrant parents that she was having a baby out of wedlock; Nagra quit her job in a bout of rebellion against family expectation to work as a convenience store clerk. The men are dangerous but tender. Phifer grew up without a father and has a temper; Gallant went off to serve in Iraq. I did laugh at the effort to bridge cultures, though, when NagraÂ’s character got married wearing a white sari. White is the Hindu color of mourning.(link)
If it’s on TV, is it a reflection of a real sociological trend, or simply a convenient image of happy multiculturalism from television fantasy-land? Sen’s article gets into some sociological explanations for the phenomenon, none of which are terribly convincing (I don’t think these romances have much to do with “American Empire” or colonialism). But she does argue that it goes beyond “submissive Asian woman”/”sexualized black man” stereotypes:
HamamotoÂ’s theory would suggest that such a preference was grounded in a sexual stereotype of submissive Asian women. I am familiar with our so-called seductress image. My Asian girlfriends and I spent our college years snottily rejecting the few white men who came around as “rice lovers.” While I did experience an American man mentioning the Kama Sutra within five minutes of meeting me recently in New York, my adolescent self-image was much closer to nerd than slut. To see all these Asian women who might also have been high-school nerds paired up with the most sexualized actors in American culture has been, I will admit it, a thrill. However, in real life, Asian women and Black men donÂ’t get to be both equally sexy and smart. “ItÂ’s easier for a Black man to get his foot in the door when heÂ’s with me,” said Aarti, “especially if weÂ’re working.”(link)
Class dynamics may be important in the appeal of Asians to some African Americans. And the “bad boy” image (stereotype) may make people of African descent more attractive to children of immigrants traditionally considered too studious and repressed (spelling bee/ math team champions) to be generally attractive.
Or maybe not: since there are no hard statistics, this could be just another Dubious Trend Story in line with infamous New York Times stories about baby gyms in Manhattan, or Ivy League women who decide to drop out of the rat race to become trophy wives. The next time you see an East or South Asian woman dating a black man … it may simply be that they are two people who happened to meet, and fall in love — irrespective of Parminder Nagra, and sociology be damned.
(Incidentally, for Bollywood fans, guess who played Nagra’s parents in a recent episode? Anupam and Kirron Kher, of course.)
‘For a lot of guys from minority and immigrant groups, sex with a white woman is a lot about conquest, revenge for colonization/oppression’. There’s probably some truth in that in many cases, even though we might not recognize or admit it in ourselves.
There is some truth to that everywhere. Why in India, many Dalit leaders married Brahmin women. There is nothing so sweet as literally fucking your oppressor, and if it wasn’t sublimated out of cosncious recognition, it probably wouldn’t be as exciting. Colonial relationships, OTOH, were overwhelmingly white man-on-brown woman.
I totally agree. I realize there are many cultures around the world where sexism is still a serious issue… but in America, not so much. We aren’t getting our breasts ironed to “protect” us from men’s advances. Theres still a way to go until we reach “equality” but even then, I just don’t buy into the idea of white women being significantly oppressed in the US.
True, but the picture is complicated by the ugly fact that, for many men, sex with women is about conquest. So, to the extent that we don’t go the Andrea Dworkin route of saying all men are rapists, we should be fair-minded and not assume that each brown man/white woman pairing is an instance of “the empire strikes back.”
As other commenters have noted, a lot of what happens in mixed-race pairs is simply attraction (and shared values) on an a personal level.
even though indian men and women share a commonality by being indian, by being men and women of color, we also are different from each other. i don’t think we sometimes understand each other’s experiences.
for instance, i don’t think a lot of indian women take into account, when they say indian men are x or y, how similiar some of our experiences are to other men of color. i would not argue that our experience is similiar to more marginalized groups, but there are experiences that, color, our lives. especially with recent events, simple signs of our masculinity have to be considered more deeply, like having a beard for instance. expressing masculinity for a man of color is not simple. if you are too assertive, you may be considered sexy, but also more likely to attract negative attention. if you are not assertive you run the risk of being marginalized quickly. there is also the stereotypical reaction to “machismo” from men of color, while i would argue, the word itself has strong color conotations. in almost every case, macho is assigned to an ethnic label. its not all that hard to cross boundaries as an indian man and find yourself on the other side. Bohemia, the punjabi rapper, is an example for instance
on the other hand, i don’t know that we have enough conversations as to what exactly the indian or woman of color experiences are like either. i think there is a lot of drama in the 20’s that can sometimes prevent these neccessary interactions that allow us to understand each other.
Oneup, I presume you are a black woman, and as such I have the deepest respect for your views on the subject. Even more so as you’re open-minded person. But I wonder if blacks in America aren’t socialized to think of race as the more pressing problem (which, of course, it certainly was about 40 years ago).
Neither the race struggle nor the gender one is close to being over. But my opinion is that institutionalized misogyny is a somewhat more pressing problem than institutionalized racism in this country. Even in circles where racism of any kind would be considered gauche, woman-hatery is still a popular sport. The “foolish woman” and the “hysterical shrew” remain two of the favorite tropes of popular media. Then there’s the whole sexual angle (I won’t spell it out; I’ll just say that there is a lot of money being made on the internet).
And “andronormativity” (if I may coin a term) is still deeply embedded in everyday language, to the extent that efforts to correct it end up sounding shrill.
So, I do think women, white ones included, are significantly oppressed in the US.
This is my perception, but I’m willing to be corrected. I’d be delighted if other commenters, women in particular, weighed in on this.
The white girl. Hands down. White women’s “oppression” is one of the biggest lies marketed to people of color in America. White women have piggybacked on all victories of the civil rights movement and put themselves right next to white men in terms of running this country. Go to any non-profit organization, you’ll find most of them staffed and run by white women. Don’t let vhite-ghurl tell you otherwise. Are white women being bombed into the stone age right now? Are white women being profiled and hate-crimed-on and deported? Hell no. Don’t take that shit.
” But I wonder if blacks in America aren’t socialized to think of race as the more pressing problem “
Socialized by who? Anytime a black commentator suggests race having a contributory cause for something he’s accused of “playing the race card” Meanwhile white people play their race card of deniability every day. This type of comment I think is borderline insulting, it’s saying a population isn’t smart enough to intuit its own problems.
Save your sexual example, men hatery exists in the world to nearly the same degree, I would say. And to this people usually quote “Yeah well 97% of CEO’s are held by men and this that and the other thing” Yes but look at it this way. Those are OTHER MEN! Out of the male population in the world, I’d say the CEO’s amount to about .00000001 %. And when these men make decisions on how to control the world and its minions they don’t call me and say “Oh, Hi, This is a powerful male, I just wanted to consult with another male before I made this decision..”
Except for these tokens, the rest are fair game for being called “sex-crazed, irrational, anamalistic jerks, mommas boys, losers” the list goes on. “The War Against Boys” by Christina Sommers describes this perfectly.
And I’d even venture to say the sexual angle has a counterpart for us too, the financial angle. Shows like Joe Millionnaire, Who wants to marry a millionnaire, and even Average Joe (because now the drama is, will this girl hook up with the guy, even though he’s NOT rich and famous and handsome, etc…) basically tells us we’re worthless unless we roll in a bentley.
I hate it when people bring up race in relationships. Love is hard to find. Why should anyone cut out significant portions of the population and make it hard for themselves. I’ve been accused of what technophobicgeek mentioned in post #47. If the females where I live are mostly white, is it really that surprising too see me with a white girl?
DesiDancer, meri DD,
Thanks for the compliment. 🙂
To answer the question, for me it’s not the height (or lack thereof), it’s the too pretty (though not pretty to me at all). I must say, even with less girly guys, I have the same recoiling reaction to too much meterosexualness.
It’s one thing to have an interest in grooming and appearance and all the rest of it, but there’s a certain line (you know it when you see it), be it the too much time in front of the mirror or other excessive attentions to appearance, that makes me go “Ewwwwww”. God only knows what all this reveals about my own notions of masculinity and femininity (actually, excessively girly girls get on my nerves too)….
But let’s take some filmi examples…. imho, Nana Patekar, Amitabh Bachchan, AB 2.0, Sunil Shetty, Aditya Pancholi (there’s a blast from the B-list past), all quite hunky. Saif Ali Khan, John Abraham, Vivek Oberoi, Hrithik, attractive, yes, but too too pretty to provoke improper thoughts.
On the subject of color and race and interracial relations on film, Jerry Pinto talks about this quite a lot in his book on Bollywood legend Helen (whose birthday it is today), especially vis-a-vis the expected role of the Hindu heroine to be virginal and meek (“Eyes down, you’ll spoil the bloody video!”), and how actresses from other religious backgrounds were called upon to play the dancer/vamp role.
one could argue that misgoyny in america is almost worse for caucasian women since they are closest to it.
apropos, Sherman Alexie had a pretty cool poem on this topic, the sometimes lonely struggle of women, who are white, for equality and respect. putting it one way, ride or die chicks come in all colors
A note about the original post:
Michael Gallant is played by Sharif Atkins (not Shafiq Atkins).
And that’s not him in the photo. That’s Mekhi Phifer. I don’t watch ER (haven’t done in years), but I don’t think Parminder’s character had a relationship with Mekhi’s character.
you’re right, all look same — but truth be told, mekhi pfifer’s character did hit on neela when she first appeared on the show. that made ming-na jealous, and she got all catty with neela over it.
Mr. Kobayashi, I love you.
It drives me up a wall to hear guys in real life (never mind onscreen portrayals) dismiss someone (co-worker, former girlfriend) with an all-knowing tone as they pronounce “She’s crazy”.
“Parminder Nagra’s character was a Sikh Punjabi”
I am not from Punjab or Sikh so I am not sure. Is Neela Rasgotra a Sikh name? It sounds like a Punjabi Hindu name. I remember MK Rasgotra(Former foreign secretary) as a Hindu.
As a lebanese friend of mine recently put forth insightfully, ‘For a lot of guys from minority and immigrant groups, sex with a white woman is a lot about conquest, revenge for colonization/oppression’. There’s probably some truth in that in many cases, even though we might not recognize or admit it in ourselves.
Your Lebanese friend speaks for himself.
I don’t really understand the thrust of this post. Is the purpose to critique Sen’s article, which seems to state that there is a new “trend” of Black men dating Asian women? I read the Sen article, it does seem to get a little bit confused. I don’t think there’s any “trend” of Black men dating Asian or desi women… if anything, I see the following two trends: 1) White men dating Asian and desi women; 2) Desi men dating white women; and 3) Asian men and Black women never dating anyone outside of their “racial” group. In terms of the wider culture, I certainly know a few Black/desi couples but it’s far from a “trend”. I think Black men and desi/Asian women are some of the most exoticized groups of people in American culture. Is it really that surprising that TV shows find it titillating (as well as racially safe, since whiteness is not threatened) to pair a Black man and desi woman?
I’m also confused as to whether the post is analyzing the TV shows Sen talks about or the culture at large… both posts seem to confound the two.
Now as far as trends – I think we all know the trend of white men with Asian/desi fever. Countless desi and Asian sisters have spoken to this. The thing I have noticed recently is the sudden rise in interest among white women for desi men. Call it a misapprehension, but since September 11, 2001, I’ve noticed that desi men have suddenly become a new hot item for white women. It mirrors the kind of exotification I’ve seen happening to Black men, perhaps with slightly different roots.
Hindu heroine to be virginal and meek (“Eyes down, you’ll spoil the bloody video!”), and how actresses from other religious backgrounds were called upon to play the dancer/vamp role.
Yes, and No. Filmholic.
Real Life: Most of the Indian heroines were either Muslims, or Christians (some Anglo-Indians) or other minorities till very recently (80s onwards) in real life. Hindu heroine is a very recent happening. Often, heroes were Punjabi/ North Indiann male till 80s – the whole Kapoor family, Rajesh Khanna, Amtiabh B. or even Muslims like Dilip Kumar. Kamalhasan in a way broke the trend.
Do not get distracted by their filmi names: Meena Kumari, Madhubala, Nargis, Zeenat Aman, Praveen Babi were Muslims in real life.
Reel Life: I can agree that the herione character often is Hindu demure girl and the vamp is a Christian socialite (examples Raj Kapoor films). However, a Muslim female from day one in Bollywood is a righeous and virginal (even she is a dancing girl) women – for example Meena Kumari in Pakeezha or many other any mughal period dramas. In Bobby, Dimple Kapadia is a Goanese Christian and there is a party scene she runs away when Rishi Kapoor tries to jiggy too soon. Sure, her short skirt had to do with her being Goanese in the movie but then Zeenat Aman had very little clothes in a puja scene as a devout Hindu in one of the Raj Kapoor movies.
PS: I am doing a purely academic discussion rather pushing anyone’s agenda. Fimholic, some more home work.
On the whole “who has it tougher — white girl or brown guy?” question, I don’t mean to fight the question, but it does seem fruitless to try to decide who has it tougher. The answer will vary depending upon the circumstances — the part of the country one is in, one’s profession, etc. There are parts of the country and professions where being a brown guy may not be much of a hindrance at all (say, in a start-up/tech company in the Bay area), and others where that is less true. Similarly, some professions are very women-friendly, while others are far less so. Plus there is the whole safety issue that women always have to think about, though that too varies depending on where one lives, how frequently one goes out at night, etc. Of course, even people in “comfortable” situations may face discrimination under certain circumstances — the brown start-up finance guy may get a closer look from airport security, while the woman who heads up a non-profit may get talked down to by a car salesman. And so on.
In short, I think racism and sexism are both complex, and vary somewhat depending upon the situation. I’m not sure a “who has it worse” discussion serves any purpose. What would be useful, I would hope, in a brown guy-white girl relationship would be each person being able to empathize with the other in situations in which one felt marginalized.
Just to be contrarian, I’m going to vote for the Indian male. The single greatest unearned advantage–ie privilege– an individual can have is to be lucky enough to have 2 loving, stable, and supportive parents, ie being a member of the “lucky sperm club” as Warren Buffett puts it. I don’t think anything else is more determinate to an individualÂ’s happiness and success.
So, sociologically speaking, I think a generic indian male in the US (b/c of traditional family values in the desi community) is more likely to have this advantage than a white woman (b/c of the relative decline of the american family).
By this criterion, I might add, a poor black girl form a loving family would be more privileged than a rich white boy with parents who ignore him.
All Look Same, I knew there was something dicey about posting on TV shows I don’t actually watch.
That is from a quote from Rinku Sen herself. So I’ll pass the buck to her for the misspelling.
Crap, that’s my doing. The only place I’ve seen Mekhi Phifer is 8 Mile — and he looks a bit different without the dreads.
But it helps to know that he flirted with Neela when she first showed up.
let’s get re-tar-ded in here
Nikon — As far as I remember it was suggested Neela was a Sikh b/c when her family to came to visit the ER and attend her grad ceremony, the male members were wearing turbans. anyway, even if neither neela nor rasgotra are sikh names you know those hollywood execs don’t know the difference. hell, naveen andrews is playing an iraqi on lost, what does that tell you about tv execs?
Yeti, the thrust of this post was to provoke exactly the kind of discussion that’s been occurring. It wasn’t meant to be a definitive statement or clearly marked argument — just to raise some questions.
And DTK, I agree with your impulse to reject the “who has it worse” discussion.
Totally agreed. You can also find an interesting take on racism amongst Indians towards African Americans in “The Karma of Brown Folk,” by Vijay Prashad. He argues that the model minority myth also played a part in pitting South Asian Americans against other minority populations ie. Blacks and Hispanics.
Rashmi I haven’t read the book, but the argument sounds like the one put forth by the whiteness studies crowd, viz., there are some ethnic groups, eg. the Irish and Jews in a previous era, perhaps Cuban-Americans today, who co-opt themselves into white normativity (become white) in their own pursuit of a place in the “order.” This can be satirized away quite easily, but I believe that if South Asians had to choose, many would choose being white and “normal” rather than identifying with a coalition of oppressed minorities. Nor do they have the nembers to create a “third culture” as Hispanic Americans are trying to do. Some young desis do pick up blackspeak and the ghetto vibe, but that is all simulation for style – they come from the same place that “wiggers” do and quickly drop it when its time to get a job.
Actually, I think I would be the last person on earth to tell people that the racism that occurs today is extremely pressing. I would much rather people acknowledge that the racism of the past plays an extremely significant role in creating many of the problems black people currently face.
As for the jokes about women… jokes suck, but at the end of the day, white women are still more economically advantaged than, say, black men. But that’s off topic for this blog.
But I think the key here is in one’s definition of priviledge. And for me, it is going through life and rarely, if ever, having to really wonder if something you were born with is the reason for your rise or fall. I don’t think this regularly comes up with white women unless its related to a job promotion. Meanwhile, minorities are constantly reminded of their “otherness” by people’s comments, the inconvenience of being able to eat their own foods, the inability to buy makeup that actually matches their friggin skin tone…
All that stuff is just there for them. And they don’t even have to think twice about it.
sounds like a business opportunity.
And yes the token white man that will walk upto you at a bar is usally hoping he’ll get some brown sugar in the form of Kamasutra from you.
Dude, what kind of bars do you people hang out in??
In real life I know a lot more asian-white combinations than asian-black combinations—probably b/c things like Prop 209 severely depleted my higher education and subsequent social ecology of blacks and Latinos, a lack that still grates on me. (I had more friends from the “traditional” American minorities at my preppy suburban semi-boarding school than at my public university. Several of my black schoolmates angrily turned down post-affirmative action offer letters from Berkeley because they were so pissed. And it’s generally very hard to smooothly break out of the social groups set by my college days. Damn you Ward Connerly!!)
Personally I think it’s precisely because asian-white (especially asian female and white male) is so common in real life that it’s not common on the screen. Producers don’t want to alienate white women who resent it (most frequent I’ve come across thinly veiled racism is commentary on such relationships), and who are frequently their core viewers anyway. Sometimes you’ll see a white-male/black-woman or white-male/hispanic woman combo (Carter on ER, Cruise&ThandieNewton on MI2) , but white women are probably less likely to vocalize a complain about that, even in their own heads. We all know white women never, ever, ever date men of other races, perish the thought! Though every now and then they might have a steamy encounter with slightly tan Spaniard masquerading as a South American or Chicano. The asexualization of Asian men is equally ridiculous. It should end. The People demand Takeshi Kaneshiro and they demand him now! And as for us brown people, we just need to get more screentime period.
The solution is to write more stories that reflect the way people are really mixing it up and then promote them like crazy so the roles bubble up to be filled in by all the sidelined but talented actors.
I hear you. Maximum respect.
White man asian woman pairing is more acceptable in the western society. Similarly white woman brown man pairing is more acceptable in Indian films. Take for example Salaam Namaste, Rang de basanti, Lagaan, Ismail Merchant’s Heat and dust, Subhash Ghai’s Kisna, Malgudi days- Vendor of sweets etc. It is a reflection of mindset of people. The asian man needs to be emasculated to be accepted in the west. Why would William Hung become such a phenomenon otherwise. Its like saying, hey be like this man and be accepted. Would he have become a celebrity if he was a slightly better singer and had whiter teeth, probably not. He is perfect the way he is as a stereotype.
Several mutineers seem to be in this business already.
how the hell do you people have so much time to do this shit? Why does everyone complain about the injustices they face being a minority, or who has it worse. Life is fucked up, it always has been.
point blank: live ya life.
your time is better spent doing something about, unless ofcourse this your outlet for therapy cause you’re too cheap to pay for a psychatrist
Oops, wrong URL in Post 80. The correct one is:http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/003407.html
Mahatma Gandhi said, To fight injustice, you need to make the injustice visible. I dont know about you but I certainly dont like to be referred to as Paki.
Hell yes! Oh please lordy YES!
off white with silver or gold border, white saree with red color border as in Andhra wedding is ok unless it is pure white saree which is normally used for mourning
Parminder Nagra’s character repeatedly referred to her Sikh background during her early appearances on the show, and also when she brought a bhangra tape into the ER where someone (slightly erroneously) referred to it as “Sikh rap”. (It was Punjabi MC’s famous song “Mundian To Bach Ke”/”Beware of the Boys”).
Correct, although considering Parminder Nagra is a Sikh herself, one would expect her to point it out to them (ditto for her white sari during the wedding sequence).
Topcat –
I agree, i’ve been called everyname you can think of, being the ONLY darkskinned person growing up in a rich WASP town. Make that injustice visible within a medium where someone will LEARN something. Sepiamutiny is great, but who is the audience? a bunch of people unaware of these injustices? Go volunteer at a local school and teach them about pakistani traditions, maybe when they grow up they won’t assume you’re kids are terrorists.
Learn wing chun and muay thai for the next asshole who calls you a paki. Its hard to talk shit when your nose is broken. I don’t promote violence, but i don’t take shit from anyone except my family, especially no assholes.
Filmiholic (#59), thanks for the segue to bring it back around to mixed-desis: When women first started acting in desi movies, the female lead actresses were usually “Anglo-Indians” or half-desis (Ha-Des, as Fofatlal coins it) because having already been outcast or at least looked down on for their ethnicity, these women weren’t as wrapped up or restricted by the social edicts of what “good indian girls” do and don’t do. It was easier for the Anglo-Indian actresses to take roles of vampy, or sexually-expressive characters, whereas the few Indian actresses at the time would only take a sati-savitri chase and pure wife role, if any. Tejaswini Ganti touches on this a fair bit in her book “Bollywood”
Me thinks Sepia Mutiny is a great group of people to share my thoughts with and its a great place to put forth my concerns.
dont just talk.
go out ye, and procreate.
topcat –
you are right, but the people who need to see these injustices are not reading sepiamutiny
me thinks you need to get a job
88- Chaste, not “chase” as I typed… though that might be an amusing movie, too…
me thinks that it is ironic that the person who has time to post in the comments every few minutes is saying that “other” people need to get a job. I’m just sayin…. 😉
So, you mean all the people at Sepia Mutiny are wasting time?
White man asian woman pairing is more acceptable in the western society
Actually i think its more like white man…and any race of woman seems to be acceptable to society for some stupid reason. And I agree completely about the neutering of the Asian man in popular media. and as much as I would like to believe that Gurinder Chaddha is trying to show support for mixed race relationships in her movies, i seriously doubt it. so far in the two movies I have seen she has shown only indian female white male relationships. Not a very diverse group of mixed race relationships.
ditto. My ex-roommate didn’t even try to veil her insinuations [Asians = submissive women => Why white men date Asian women]. Most probably because her narrow mind couldn’t take in the map of the world. Interestingly, she made it a point to mention that she (white girl) didn’t include us (her two Indian roommates) in the category (because Asian Not= South Asian), but made this remark after I introduced her to my white date. (No comments when I had introduced ‘coloured’ dates earlier.)
post #1 is totally right
No not at all. But it sells. A friend of mine is a film director and producer, she took a script to a prod company for review, the first thing they said upon realizing it centered on a south asian male-female relationship was “make the man white.”
Top Cat,
your logic is undeniable..
HAVE A JOB-
The movie you’re talking about doesn’t happen to be called finding preet?