For a while now I have been meaning to write about a topic that has been of great concern to me (I am pretty sure most of my co-bloggers are as disturbed by it as I am). I have noticed that the blogosphere, with its ability to confer an anonymous voice to anyone, is often the venue for ignorant and naked jingoism. A blog like ours, which mostly covers items about, and of interest to North Americans of South Asian origin, offers a particularly unique window into what I am referring to. All of the bloggers who write for SM live in North America. Some were born here and some were not. The resulting mix of loyalties, the perception of mixed loyalties, our readers expectation of mixed loyalties, or our readers anger at a lack of loyalty toward the lands of our “origin,” results in a perfect storm. SM and a few other sites like it are being viewed by some as a sort of virtual ideological battlefield where the hearts and minds of several thousand readers hang in the balance.
Jingo: (n) One who vociferously supports one’s country, especially one who supports a belligerent foreign policy; a chauvinistic patriot. [link]
In its traditional use the word “jingo” (a pejorative term) means something far different than the word “patriot.” A patriot loves their country or geographic region and is ready to defend it…but is not above questioning it or beyond introspection. A true patriot is willing to defend against all enemies both external and internal. A jingo is the worst kind of nationalist (even worse when mixed with religion). They lash out at the tiniest hint of criticism directed at “their own.” A few days ago a reader commented on what he saw transpiring on our News Tab:
Off topic, but also in a strange way, slightly related to this topic, is the way in which the news tab here on Sepia Mutiny is used as a repository for anti Muslim chauvinism. This goes beyond the legitimate posting of stories on Muslim extremism and runs to the extent of posting articles from the RSS newspaper, posting about Little Green Football style documentary screeds about ‘The Truth About Islam’. I have noticed how these posts amazingly get large numbers of ‘Interested’ clicks in a short amount of time. Amazing!Amusingly, someone has now posted a ‘Trouble with Hinduism’ article in response to this bigotry as a means of showing how it works both ways. Good. Chauvinists are using the news tab for their bigoted agenda. You should at least be aware of it. It is so tedious to see these monomaniacs waging their campaign and abusing what is an open and useful facility on SM. [link]
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p>Yes, we are well aware of this phenomenon and will work to stamp it out as best we can. You can accuse us of censorship if you’d like but this isn’t about censorship but about remaining true to belief that communication is more important than simply being heard. A few weeks ago Anna sent her co-bloggers the following email:
Subject: I find the popularity of this news item a bit disturbingThe article linked reads like a SpoorLam rant…except it’s not funny.
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p>That was one of the most popular articles in terms of number of votes we had that day…and it was little more than anti-Muslim propoganda. Last week when I posted about Bill Clinton’s foreword in Madeline Albright’s new book, I was accosted by jingoes (not only on this site but on another one). By posting about a newsworthy item, and one of interest to members of the South Asian American community, I was deemed complicit by many in some sort of character assassination of the Indian Army. It didn’t matter that I had quoted in the same post from an article which layed the blame for the incident mentioned therein on Lashkar e Taiyba, or that I had linked to Nitin Pai’s excellent blog posts on the topic (which provided a viewpoint different from Clinton’s). Instead, the very fact that I would provide a mic for Clinton’s beliefs or exhibit curiosity about the motivation behind his thoughts elicited an angry response from many who accused myself and SM of disliking Hindus and Indians (some comments were deleted before I closed down the post). Other readers may have had valid and reasonable points to make, but as someone who blogs on SM as a hobby I don’t have time to spend an entire afternoon moderating comments. None of us do.
<
p>In the same post mentioned above I quoted from author Pankaj Mishra’s new book in which he writes about the same incident that Clinton referred to. That elicited this response:
It is also wonderful that you mention that arch traitor, Pankaj Mishra in this context, since it is he with his wonderful investigative reporting, who first started this canard about the Indian Army’s involvement in the massacre. [Link]
You see, Pankaj Mishra is an arch traitor because he dared to criticize the Indian government or voice his opinion in a reasonable manner. Maybe I am now considered a traitor to many Indians (even though I am American) for even citing him in a post. That commenter was by no means the only one who felt that way. Coincidentally, the same Pankaj Mishra had an op-ed in this week’s NY Times. It is titled “The Myth of the New India.” A reader let us know about this article by posting it to our News Tab. This is how the reader described the article in their own sarcastic words:
India should stop trying to pretend that it’s a success. India should know its true place as the disgusting, third world country it really is! Or so says the article. [link]
I really liked that last sentence, “or so says the article.” For the record, the article said no such thing. Yes, it was critical of India on some points. A jingo however cannot let such an insult pass. How dare Mishra say anything bad about India. Here are some of the critical points Mishra makes:
In recent weeks, India seemed an unlikely capitalist success story as communist parties decisively won elections to state legislatures, and the stock market, which had enjoyed record growth in the last two years, fell nearly 20 percent in two weeks, wiping out some $2.4 billion in investor wealth in just four days. This week India’s prime minister, Manmohan Singh, made it clear that only a small minority of Indians will enjoy “Western standards of living and high consumption.”
There is, however, no denying many Indians their conviction that the 21st century will be the Indian Century just as the 20th was American. The exuberant self-confidence of a tiny Indian elite now increasingly infects the news media and foreign policy establishment in the United States.
Encouraged by a powerful lobby of rich Indian-Americans who seek to expand their political influence within both their home and adopted countries, President Bush recently agreed to assist India’s nuclear program, even at the risk of undermining his efforts to check the nuclear ambitions of Iran. As if on cue, special reports and covers hailing the rise of India in Time, Foreign Affairs and The Economist have appeared in the last month. [Link]
Even after the hundreds of positive articles about India that have been published this past year, a jingo cannot let such a few critical comments pass without stringing Mishra up. How dare his criticisms reach impressionable readers in a place like the NY Times op-ed page? This is an insult to India!
In this past week’s Newsweek, Christopher Dickey has an article about the rise of American Nationalism that I feel is a must read. He effectively captures what I have been feeling and his article served as the catalyst for me finally sitting down to get this post off my chest [yes, I know it is soapboxy but it is my soapbox 🙂 ]. In it he liberally quotes from Orwell:
Orwell wrote that nationalism is partly “the habit of assuming that human beings can be classified like insects.” He said it’s not to be confused with patriotism, which Orwell defined as “devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force upon other people…”But American nationalism, unlike American patriotism, is different-and dangerous.
The second part of Orwell’s definition tells you why. Nationalism is the habit of identifying oneself with a single nation or an idea, “placing it beyond good and evil and recognizing no other duty than that of advancing its interests.” Patriotism is essentially about ideas and pride. Nationalism is about emotion and blood. The nationalist’s thoughts “always turn on victories, defeats, triumphs and humiliations. 
Nationalism is power-hunger tempered by self-deception.”
One inevitable result, wrote Orwell, is vast and dangerous miscalculation based on the assumption that nationalism makes not only right but might-and invincibility: “Political and military commentators, like astrologers, can survive almost any mistake, because their more devoted followers do not look to them for an appraisal of the facts but for the stimulation of nationalistic loyalties.” When Orwell derides “a silly and vulgar glorification of the actual process of war,” well, one wishes Fox News and Al Jazeera would take note…<
p>For Orwell, the evils of nationalism were not unique to nations, but shared by a panoply of “isms” common among the elites of his day: “Communism, political Catholicism, Zionism, anti-Semitism, Trotskyism and Pacifism.” Today we could drop the communists and Trotskyites, perhaps, while adding Islamism and neo-conservatism. The same tendencies would apply, especially “indifference to reality.”
“All nationalists have the power of not seeing resemblances between similar sets of facts,” said Orwell. “Actions are held to be good or bad, not on their own merits but according to who does them, and there is almost no kind of outrage-torture, the use of hostages, forced labor, mass deportations, imprisonment without trial, forgery, assassination, the bombing of civilians-which does not change its moral color when committed by ‘our’ side.
The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them…” [Link]
That last quote summarizes quite well what many of us are witnessing play out before us in this new anonymous blogosphere. It is jingoistic one-upsmanship. If one guy posts a news article about a crime committed by a Hindu then another will post one about a crime by a Muslim. If one guy puts up an article critical of India then another will follow with one about how evil Musharraf is. Anyone that criticizes what is perceived by some as “their proper side,” is a traitor. And so on and so on. Orwell had it right.
Abhi is a baby.
SOMEONE needs to brush up on their flicks from ’87.
Ahhh, my favorite topic 😉 If we “shut the fuck up,” it’s highly unlikely that there would still be readership on the blog at the level it’s at. Same point on the “free” aspect of it–we’re contributing free labor too that creates an important part of the value of the blog and many people (though not me) contributed money. There are reasonable arguments for a top-down element in governing a blog space–some of which you yourself presented in this thread–that one could engage, but direct calls for a culture of fascism are not one of them 😉
Abir:
I am not Soma Kumar. Let me fill you in on my background, however: I am a Kashmiri Pandit, born in Srinagar, India and brought up in America. My family (immediate and extended) has suffered to varying degrees due to the ethnic cleansing of our community from J&K (Though I, and the rest of my immediate family, count ourselves very lucky indeed compared to the fate of many other members of our community, not least because we found a safe haven in America).
As for what I believe, I am most certainly a unionist and not a secessionist. This does not make me an apologist for human rights violations occurring due to the security forces. Do take the time to read my posts above, and youÂ’ll discover my standards on this matter are quite strict. To repeat myself: I do not think it wise, morally or prudentially, to conduct counter-insurgency operations without respecting fundamental human rights. Indian security force members who violate such rights must be punished by the justice system.
I have no hesitation in acknowledging and condemning violations committed by Indian security forces, as in Pathribal (but not in Chattisinghpura; I think the balance of evidence points to the jihadis). But I fear that all too many in the secessionist faction in the Valley are eager to conjure up fantastic conspiracies in order to wish away the very real horrors committed by their ‘boys’, the jihadis: Ethnic cleansing of our community, murders of civilians, rapes and much more committed by the jihadis are routinely blamed on Indian agencies of one sort or another. It’s a pity that so many secessionists in the Valley are in ‘denial mode’. I am thus not surprised that a conspiracy-monger of Mr. Mishra’s caliber is popular in the Valley. The secessionist faction would do well to put its own house in order.
Regards, Kumar
Abir,
If I may ask, ( even at the risk of appearing “naive” ) what really is the “Kashmir problem”.. How “Kashmiris” are different than “Tamils”, “Telugus”, “Nagas”.. ?
I do know a little bit of history.. Let’s assume that “Kashmir” is a British province instead of the “princely state” it was.. In that case as part of the Muslim majority regions in the Northwest (like Punjab) it should naturally be linked to Pakistan.. Like Punjab and Bengal, the state should have been partitioned with Muslim majority districs going to Pakistan like the Kashmir Valley and Hindu and Buddhist majority districts going to India like Jammu and Ladakh.. Is that the ideal solution??.. Ofcourse that solution would have accompanied with the resultant evils of ethnic cleansing on both sides..
I personally think that was the ideal solution in 1947.. Now it has become more messed up with the fate of “minorities in India” (euphemism for Muslims) mixed up with Kashmir.. I don’t see any solution in sight in the near future..
Just a thought, but maybe part of the problem is that clearly tendentious arguments are not sufficiently recognized (by bloggers, commenbters, etc.) for being what they are. Aside from it being occasionally fun, it doesn’t really promote decent conversation to respond to one of scores of comments that equate Muslims with terrorists (or, as they like to say, “…but all terrorists are Muslims” which will presumably not be changed to “all terrorists are Muslims except Haitians in Florida who have been accused but not convicted of a plot”), or to pretend that it’s legitimate to attack a Muslim for homophobia in a discussion about his denial of a visa (as if countless homophobic people are not granting and receiving U.S. visas) things or that Kashmir is India’s, end of discussion. There’s a certain level of idiocy that hinders adult conversation (I know this having participated in it on both sides…I plead guilty on occasion, wish others would as well) among the people you’re trying to reach out to. Being juvenile is fun sometimes, but it’s also sometimes interesting to talk about something real.
Anyway, props to you, Abhi, for taking on this topic and being willing to deal with the wrath you’ve drawn upon yourself. And props to Pankaj Mishra for doing interesting writing about South Asia.
Kumar: I am grateful for your comments and very happy to know you are a fellow-Kashmiri. However, I think you too easily dismiss Kashmiri Muslims fears of security forces as ‘fantasies’ and conspiracy theories of secessionists. I promise you, a few days in the valley interacting with Kashmiris will change your mind. The killings by Jihadis are well known. No one except the fanatics has trouble acknowledging them as the handiwork of jihadis. But there is little official accountability, far too many kidnappings and killings of innocent people by security forces, and that’s what makes people so suspicious when something like the Sikh killings occur. I really think you need to live in Kashmir to see how oppressive state power can be. The jihadi terrorists are only a handful. But the army dominates the valley and it is too easy to say that errant soldiers should be punished by the ‘justice system’ when you are sitting in America. I say this not in a accusatory spirit but with the hope that you will understand why we think what we think, and that you will only have when you have a sense of what life really is for Kashmiris. For instance, the CBI report on Pathribal says that the army consistently blocked its probe. I don’t think Kashmiri Muslims can really expect justice in these circumstances
Oh, come now, dear Saurav — must you go that far? Even if you have a point — and I’m not trying to imply that you don’t — must you resort to the last refuge by invoking fascism? Suggesting that Razib was advocating a culture akin to that which resulted in mass genocide of millions of people? Maybe others should respond in kind, by accusing you of having designs not simply on expropriation, but perhaps even Stalinist collectivization of the blogosphere, and indeed (why the heck not?) designs on world domination. [Saurav: “Today, Sepia Mutiny — tomorrow, the WORLD!!!]
😉
p.s. — I can’t help but notice that almost one year after this comment, you’re still here. Don’t get me wrong — I myself am not at all unhappy about that. But I guess it’s not a total echo chamber just yet. 😉
Hmmm…. I wouldn’t necessarily lump this one in too quickly as “idiocy that hinders adult conversation” — some folks (Siddhartha, others) started to discuss this issue in an adult manner in Neeraja’s Ramadan thread, but the discussion didn’t really take off (if it does now, I suppose it should probably continue over there though, rather than here….)
It’s called hyperbole for effect (in this case provocation–thanks for indulging–and to some extent, amusement). It makes for more entertaining discourse than “Well, razib, I think you were being a bit unfair when you told people to ‘shut the fuck up’ especially when you have other good arguments elsewhere.” But your point’s well taken–see my comment #156.
btw, I notice you have taken it upon yourself to be my own personal comment monitor, Number Six. I suppose this is not altogether terrible (certainly for me…I can always use a decent editor :), though I wish you had noticed that I left for several months after that traumatic exchange 😉 I’d like line edits too…I have an overwhelming numbers of typos 🙂
As for thought ghettos…well, that’s a wide ranging discussion that I’m not going to subject myself to (again) here, but suffice it to say that some things have changed for the better and some things haven’t. Most of us are works in progress.
btw, whatever happened to vurdlife?
Is there anybody in there? Just e-mail if you can hear us. Is there anyone at home?
which is why i responded in kind.
huh? as if I’m the NSA, and as if you could be effectively “monitored.” 😉 I just respond to what I find interesting, thought-provoking, and provocative — including but definitely not limited to many of your comments.
ain’t that the truth. desi cylons included. 🙂
p.s. — you don’t want me line editing for you.
Abir,
You know all too well, the treatement meted out to the Kashmiri Pandits [Hindus] by the Kashmiri majority Muslim populace.
I too am well aware of the atrocities commited by the Indian security forces. Indeed, I even witnessed the humiliating way the Army treats the Kashmiri youth. [I left the valley in 94]
Displaying your outrage, you [Kashmiri Muslims] have taken out hundreds of processions in the valley, protesting variously, the Indian rule and Army atrocities. At times some protestors have even lost their lives.
Why hasn’t there been a single procession carried out to protest the ethnic cleansing of the original Kashmiri culture? i.e, the Kashmiri Pandits.
My reason for this seemingly rambling post, Abir, is to ask you why should the Kashmiri Pandit give a damn? Why should the Pandit trust you ? After all, this isn’t the first time, we have been driven out by Islamo fascists.
One procession is all I ask for.
Abir
Unfortunately, that is something denied our family by the jihadis. However living in Kashmir is no guarantee of the soundness of one’s views—witness the populatrity of conspiracy-mongering among some secessionists. But through my relatives in India (both in Jammu and elsewhere; some of them have in fact visited the Valley for a religious festival, though they have not dared to stay on for more than a few days), as well as assiduously reading (among other sources) Kashmiri papers & magazines (online and off; unionist & secessionist), I am reasonably well-informed about the facts on the ground. Certainly more so than a conspiracy-monger like Mr. Mishra.
No, I don’t dismiss reports of human rights violations by security forces as fantasies; those most certainly occur and are well-publicized (as in Pathribal). Rather, I have disdain for those secessionists who insist that all human rights violations in the Valley are due only to the security forces (as in Chattisinghpura).
You are right that only fanatic secessionists deny violations by their ‘boysÂ’. Regrettably, they are the ones who dominate political life in secessionist circles. As a result, those secessionist Kashmiri Muslims who are not in denial are afraid to rebuke the ‘boys’ in public.
I don’t doubt that accountability should increase, but I don’t think that it currently amounts to ‘little’. More can and should be done, of course: A difficult task, but one to which there is no alternative (and one that would be infinitely easier if jihadi terror ceased).
You are mistaken in suggesting that the root of conspiracy-mongering lies in such human rights violations. Rather, its source is an anxiety among secessionists that the murderous rampages of the jihadis will leave their ‘cause no longer clean to fight for’ in the eyes of the rest of the world.
You are also mistaken in downplaying the number of jihadis active in J&K. I’m frankly astounded that you claim they amount to a handful. Hardly. Estimates number those active in the field in the low thousands (1800 to 3500), and that’s if one does not count ‘overground’ members involved in, e.g., transporting arms etc.
Regards, Kumar
re: “shut the f**k up.”
there is the issue i have. i’ve been blogging for 4 years now. i’ve seen SM blow up over the past 2 years. with that in mind i really get irritated when i see people without their own blogs ‘give advice’ to people who do run successful blogs. i’ve been on the receiving end of ‘friendly advice’ myself. basically, some people want to make my blog more friendly to their own inclinations, whether it be more liberal, less liberal, more retrded, less retrded, etc. and that’s their right to express their opinion, but it’s my right to tell them to shut the f**k up if i feel like it because i’ve spent a non-trival amt. of money on blogging, a lot of unpaid hours in tech support, and of course a lot of time generating original content and commentary. i accept criticism of posts, but i really hate meta-criticisim, as if.
this issues must be modulated. if someone runs a blog themselves, then i weight the opinion more. if someone is a long time intelligent commenter, i weight the opinion more. if someone espouses a communitarian ideology which doesn’t privilege private property, well, i can see where they are coming from. but, in the case of manju (who isn’t stupid)
a) he doesn’t seem to have a blog b) he has expressed rightish opinions (generally in line with my own)
well, i believe in private property. and, i’ve been on the receiving end of requests for having a ‘thicker skin.’ the reality is that i’m 30 years old, and i’m going to die within the next few decades at some point, and i do not want to waste my time subsidizing drivel. this is not to say i object to critique, what i object to is the fact that individuals who invest little time, and have little investment, into a blog wander in as if they have the same authority and right to judge, demand and request as everyone else, and do not give fair acknowledgement to the fact that bloggers put much of their lives into creating a blog without remuneration. ergo, i personally hate it when commenters ask that i post on other topics, i don’t run a subscription service, and in fact, i subsidize people reading the material i generate, so it galls me that people would request (often not solicitously) that i cease posting on topics not interesting to them.
now, i put in i have been reading SM for 2 years because i’ve seen many threads where a certain right-wing-jingo-hindutva type really starts shitting in the pool. personally, i do think the ops and some of the readers give islam a pass, while there are more critical of xtianity, and especially hinduism (though the same readers are not critical of xtianity and hinduism, obviously). that being said, that discourse tends to fall within civilized bounds of disagreemant and rancor. the hindutva types really start swarming like killer bees. pound for pound i find goat-bearded islamists much more disgusting, but those types don’t come here en masse. finally, i’ve seen repeated criticisms of bloggers here for ‘not defending india’ or ‘working against the interests of us indians’ or ‘betraying our interests as indians’ or ‘working against india even though this blog is all about india.’ it seems that a certain set, often intersecting with right-wing-jingos, can only see racial identity, and do not comprehend that the bloggers here are not necessarily citizens of the nation-state of india.
in any case, as the blog has become more popular it has also attracted more of the ret*rded types as it sweeps across a wider arc of the IQ distribution. and so, i believe that mods are in their rights in cranking up the filtration of opinions.
now, keep in my mind that i am focused on process here, not substance. this doesn’t mean that i agree with editorial decisions made from on high, but, if i don’t like the content i won’t read. it isn’t like there’s a scythe to my head.
and saurav, yes, the community matters, but no one is forcing you to hit “post.” i surely lean more toward the fact that by hitting “post” i cede all rights to the owners of this weblog of the content that i end up generating, but
1) as a matter of reality only a small % of commenters add much value IMO (aside from the science posts, which are rare, i don’t add much value myself, i come here to goof off and shoot the shit and hope that the ops will tolerate me 🙂
2) the infrastructure and the primary content is a necessary precondition for the value that is added.
3) most of the value is added by the bloggers, not the idiot commenters (which sometimes includes myself). if commenters were preeiminent than we’d be reading soc.culture.indian-american right now on USENET, and we aren’t.
and obviously what you call ‘fascism’ works, you’ve tried to kick yourself of the SM ‘habit’ multiple times, but keep coming back. ‘a chicken in every pot,’ as they say.
Look out! Incoming!!!!!!
Razib,
If you didn’t have a thing for the white girls…
😉
Razib The Passionate:
Don’t overestimate me.
You’re making the classic mistake of equating a criticism of someone’s exercise of their rights, with a denial of that person’s right. For a moment there I thought it would be in my self interest to adopt a “communitarian ideology”, or at least make a non-aggression pact with Saurav, until I remembered this distinction. Even libertarians can criticize Microsoft.
\
But Abhi’s post invited meta-criticism. And he engaged those who engaged in it. And I learned something about the Blog. As I know you’re aware, by telling Abhi not to accept meta-criticism, you’re metacritiqing him. Let the Fascist ruler be tolerant if he wants to.
BTW, I think your blog would be better served if you grew a goatee for your pic…white chicks would love it.
manju, i stand in awe of your mentalist powers! and don’t you worry, i’m already hittin’ it 🙂
I dont understand the word ‘jingoism’….as an Indian , my (ultra) loyalty towards India cannot be explained. It comes from within. Just the way I am loyal to my parents and brother. I may have problems with them, I may talk back to them sometimes …but no way in hell will I tolerate somebody else talking back to them in any way. Same goes for India.
Indian Army is sacred to Indians who care about India. Indian soldiers are people willing to sacrifice their lives to keep our country safe.There is nothing greater or bigger than that.
You may criticize the Indian bureacracy, I will happily join you, you are welcome to mock the Indian political class, I will throw stones at them as you do that….but you say bad stuff about our boys in the Indian Army, I will do bad stuff to you, if I can. Right or wrong – they are my brothers. They fight for me.
Kumar: I hope you will spare a thought for those of us Muslims who can’t leave the valley and move to India or America as easily as you and your family did. I have a request to make: please visit Kashmir. I say this with some urgency because I feel that your knowledge of Kashmir is second-hand, abstract, and urgently needs a sense of reality. I promise that not a hair on your head will be harmed. Thousands of non-Muslims live and work there after all. I will make all the arrangements if you like and I will personally accompany you. Even if there are 3500 Jihadis, which hardly any one believes, they are still a handful compared to over 700,000 Indian soldiers. I hope you agree. Please come and talk to Kashmiris and have your assumptions challenged. I hope you won’t mind and I say this as respectfully as I would say to my own father or elder brother that I fear that you have become trapped by some mental habits and stereotypes about Kashmir and cannot break free of them. It makes you say very naive things that even a child in Kashmir can challenge. Please forgive me but I get upset when I hear people hold forth on a place that they haven’t visited for decades–or at all. Whatever you say about Mishra he has at least earned his views by exposing himself to danger and insecurity. I am afraid that I cannot yet say this about your views. Reading the Kashmiri papers on the internet and doing forensic analysis on printed texts while sitting in America is not the same thing as personal experience of a truly terrible reality. I hope you will grant me that. Please consider my offer seriously. I look forward to your response.
hey buddy – are there any wilderness reserves in kashmir where one can go solo? – would you recommedn going solo? i am not the coolie and guide type of guy, but i heard of these trekkers who got abducted and held for ransom. will appreciate tips from you. thank you.
Abir – my dear Kashmiri muslim – how are you my friend ? Were you too young during the wonderful days of 1989, when Kashmiri muslims had either declared independence, or declared their state to be a part of Pakistan , in the name of Allah the Merciful ? Remember those days Abir? Remember how you people mocked the Kashmiri Pandits – “leave Kashmir but leave your wives and daughters behind” ? “Either convert to Islam and fight for freedom of Kashmir, or watch your wives and daughters getting raped by our brave mujaheedin” ? Remember how everyone of you had been given AK-47s and each was now a Holy Muhajeed capable of taking on 100 kufr Indian soldiers single-handedly ? AZAADI AZAADI AZADI…HINDUSTAN KASHMIR CHODO !!
Sigh ..those were the glory days. What chance did the idol worshipping kufr have against Allah’s warriors ? None..nah ?
Imagine that. Now the same Allah’s Warriors sit in their room, with their doors locked and p1ss in their pants at the sight of the bloody Indian kufr soldiers. But it is a good thing you got internet though…you can now tell people how much you hate them bloody Indian soldiers.
I agree with you. India’s State Terrorism in Kashmir is totally reprehensible and condemnable.
So do something about it Abir. Pick up a gun or a knife or whatever is available. Fight the bloody Indians. Attack the nearest military camp. Take them down. Come on, Abir…Be a man. For once..
Abir
Easily? How do you know what my family went through, sir? Were you there? Or do you possess some sort of extra-sensory perception that allows you to know the experiences of people posting on the web? My knowledge is unfortunately painfully concrete, and first-hand, due to the actions jihadis.
It’s amusing that you think my knowledge of J&K is second-hand, while presuming to judge what my family went through: Somewhat inconsistent, don’t you think? Your comments here show a disturbing tendency to jump to conclusions based on the slightest or no evidence (from assuming what we went through to assuming that I was someone who wrote a letter to the NYRB).
Yes, they do. But they don’t include the vast majority of the Pandit community, do they? Recall that whenever any substantial nos. of Pandits try to move back to the Valley, the jihadis and their supporters issue (and sometimes carry out) threats of murder. Btw, without the presence of the security forces (whom you think only go about committing rights violations), the lives of non-Muslims who are in the Valley would be much less secure.
Sir, you desperately need a reality-check. I suggest you ought to try more reading and reflection, and try to escape the fevered swamps of bizzare logic, conspiracy-mongering, and selective amnesia of inconvenient truths that characterizes much of the secessiont faction of Kashmiri Muslims. Perhaps then J&K won’t be such a “..terrible reality…”
I prefer to stick reading as well as reflecting on my own first-hand experiences in J&K, as well as those of my family who currently live in Jammu. They tell me that the hold of the jihadis on the imagingation of the secessionist faction of Kashmiri Muslims has not lessened, even after all these terrible years: My experience and reading only confirms that.
Kumar
Kumar: I am sorry if I offended you. I only meant that it is harder for Muslims than Hindus to find a place elsewhere in India and America. You only have to talk to one Kashmiri Muslim who has tried to rent a house in Delhi or applied for an American visa. I would urge you to pause reflecting on your painful experience—if we who live in the valley did only that we wouldn’t be able to survive, you can have that luxury of reflection in America—and consider travelling to Kashmir. You will discover among other things that many Pandits still live there. Please don’t be fearful. You will have the protection of 700,000 Indian soldiers even if the 3500 jihadis are a threat–this is not an option for Kashmiri Muslims who suffer from the atrocities of both sections. I can follow you and start painting Kashmiri Pandits in the same negative colours you see Kashmiri Muslims but I can’t and won’t do that. Ksshmiri Pandits are dear to my heart. They are part of our identity and as I have said before their exodus is the greatest tragedy for us. I think if you came to Kashmir you will stop characterizing large sections of the Kashmiri population as conspiracy-theorists and see them in their humanity. But only if you are prepared or wish to see that.
Wow, Raj. Given your posts here and on Gujarat I can now truly understand why there are so many problems in India.
I’m admit I’m defensive about military personnel, American that is. However, if evidence of wrong doing is presented and called out, or any allegations are discussed, I will make arguments based on a logical empirical foundation. Above all, I won’t dishonor those troops by threatening ‘I will do bad stuff to you“, they fight to ensure a civil society is protected and laws obeyed. You also do understand that military personnel that breach discipline are looked down upon far more harshly by their own uniformed comrades than the public? Right?
Keyboard commandos like yourself is exactly to whom this post applies.
Abir,
Seems you have overlloked my post, # 63.
OTOH, If you and Kumar don’t mind, I would love to take you up on your offer of a guided tour of my erstwhile home. Needless to say, If the trip comes to fruition would be a seminal event of my life.
If agreeable, do suggest a way to communicate.
If anything, I’m a little amused about how this has devolved into a verification/substantiation issue. It’s really not that complicated. SM tends to pick up news items and discuss them without (most of the time) taking a side per se, other than to point out if something is silly or interesting, or entertaining. In all fairness, my Mutineer babies take shots at people equally, or at least in roughly the same proportions as those people have representation. Focus on the simple matter at hand in this post, without engaging in tautological critiques that wind up turning into incessant bouts of the conversations I have with my baby nephew when he doesn’t want to go to sleep: “Go to bed kiddo”, “No, YOU go to bed!”.
I really hope someone misreads everything I’ve put in here. 🙂 Because quite frankly, I’m still trying to see how we got from a post that was essentially about jingoism into a convoluted discussion about “Islamo-fascists” and other such entertaining-yet-curiously-incapable-of-scanning terms.
Abir:
No doubt, given the reach (both international as well as elswhere in India) of some jihadi groups, Kashmiri Muslims have a harder time of it than others (in India and elsewhere). Nonetheless, you do know (I hope) that substantial nos. are here as well as in New Delhi.
Unlike all too many secessionists, I do not wallow in the past and invent imaginary grievances. There is no profit in such behavior. No, my understanding of Kashmir is informed by my experiences as well as those of my family–in the past and currently–but not dominated by them.
I urge you to reflect more acutely on the past and current behavior of secessionists. Perhaps then you’ll realize that their behavior has resulted in the hellish state Kasheer is in today.
Why doesn’t that surprise me? Your penchant for exaggeration is at play here also, btw: Notice that I have always been careful to limit my criticism to the conspiracy-mongers in the secessionist faction among Kashmiri Muslims. They most certainly do not amount to the entire Kashmiri Muslim community.
Gee, thanks. You’re a true saint, Abir.
I base my views on how things are, rather than how I wish they would be. And, regrettably, Abir in their ‘humanity’, humans can sometimes be all too foolish (like the secessionists).
I truly and fervently hope that the secessionist faction among Kashmiri Muslims can find their way out of the fevered swamps of their imagination. They must take responsibility for their part in creating the mess J&K State is in now. Then, and only then, is there a possiblity for creating a better Kashmir for all of us.
Hukku:
Dude, I wasn’t aware that your travel plans were among my responsibilites. In any case, you can travel to the Valley on your own for a few days (just as my relatives have done on occasion), but I wouldn’t advise you settle down permanently in the Valley. At least not just yet.
Kumar
Kumar,
I was being sarcastic. I was born and raised in Srinagar and have suffered enough at the hands of Kashmiri Muslims, to know that Abir’s invite is hogwash.