Yesterday, Abhi blogged about the unfortunate remarks that The Senator From MBNA made about desis in Delaware; today, Biden’s case of foot-in-mouth syndrome is still a hot topic. SD pointed to just one of the stories about donut-gate via our news tab— this one is from the grey lady:
Facing criticism, potential 2008 presidential candidate Joe Biden on Friday defended his recent remark that ”you cannot go to a 7-Eleven or a Dunkin’ Donuts unless you have a slight Indian accent.”
I wouldn’t have advised the Senator to go that route, but okay.
The Delaware senator said his words were taken out of context.
Aren’t they always? Quelle tragédie. Here’s what I heard: one needs to have a “slight” Indian accent in order to order a glazed, as if the person behind the counter wouldn’t understand you otherwise. That’s garbage.
You know, the only proverb I ever memorized as a child was “Pride goeth before a fall”. Boast and you’re toast, y’heard? I’m saddened that the Senator seems too proud to own his faux-pas.
Oh, and if you need to F5 your memory– here’s what started all the drama, Mama:
On a recent edition of the C-SPAN series ”Road to the White House,” Biden is shown in New Hampshire boasting about his support among Indian-Americans.
”I’ve had a great relationship. In Delaware, the largest growth in population is Indian-Americans moving from India. You cannot go to a 7-Eleven or a Dunkin’ Donuts unless you have a slight Indian accent. I’m not joking,” the senator said.
That’s my favorite part by the way– when he foolishly insists that he’s not joking. If only he had known that his poorly-chosen meal of toes would follow him like a bad case of gas, all the way over to eye-rack. He might have fasted.
Visiting troops and officials in Iraq this week, Biden was asked about the comment during an interview with CNN’s ”The Situation Room.”
The senator said he has had an ”incredibly strong” relationship with the Indian-American community in Delaware and that his comment was misinterpreted.
I keep waiting to hear a “sorry”, “my apologies”, “oops” or even a “dude…my bad”, but he’s got nothing useful like that for us, which is too bad, because that would have been one way to make this all go away.
“I was making the point that up until now in my state, we’ve had a strong Indian community made up of leading scientists and researchers and engineers,” Biden said. Lately, he said: “We’re having middle-class people move to Delaware, take over Dunkin’ Donuts, take over businesses, just like other immigrant groups have, and I was saying that … they’re growing, it’s moving.”
Oh, well now…that explains EVERYTHING.
I am Jewish and yes, if he had said you can’t walk into a bank without a Yiddish accent I would have been offended. That may be because the stereotype of Jews dominating finance is no longer true, and hasn’t been since Christians began being permitted to lend money at interest – alongside Jews who were already exempt from the prohibition – around when the feudal period ended. As for Biden, it’s more for Indians and Indian-Americans to judge how offended to be.
I will say that a republican would have been crucified for a similar remark.
Someone again please explain to me why any of this actually matters?
It matters because ANNA likes to make issues out of non-issues. This one was a godsend for her. Anyone who doesn’t find Biden’s comments complimentary to the growing visibility and enterprising might of Indian Americans is indeed stupid. Yes that’s a sweeping judgment but that’s how it actually is. SM is undoubtedly a barometer of young Indian Americans’ views, and my concern is that such posts will be seen as reflective of their opinions by mainstream America. C’mon learn to take a joke or two. Biden meant no harm and he should not apologize. Indians please don’t go down sliding the victimhood spiral like some other minorities have before.
while rush has been equally consistenly pro globalization and free trade.
And against immigration and outsourcing. What kind of a free trader is he?
IÂ’m sorry if I offended anyone
What for? Stop being timid and goody goody to each other. As long as you are not abusive, you should be fine. Am I wrong?
Now THAT’S a winning statement if ever there was one…
So we should go ahead and be disingenuous in order to make ourselves look good? This is exactly where this whole idea of community goes to shit – when it starts to deny individuality at the expense of the group. Guess what! While we are all part of this South Asian group, we are also individuals with our own opinions and sensibilities, shaped by our personal as well as collective experiences; however, there is no collective identity – we’re not the freaking borg. If Anna was genuinely concerned about Biden’s comments she has every right to be, just as I have every right to voice my opinion that his comments were racist but that it’s not the end of the world, just as you can take it as a joke, and just as you can ask/tell the rest of us to take it as a joke.
But don’t give me that bullshit about your concern about how her post and our comments affect mainstream America’s view of “us.”
Also, calling someone out on a racist comment is NOT a sign of weakness, and it’s NOT playing the victim. It’s a show of strength. If you don’t perceive Biden’s comment as racist then fine. But there are clearly people who genuinely did. Asking them to self-censor for fear of how others might perceive the community – now THAT is weak.
Biden is kind of a surreal character….to me he’s everything a US Senator is, both good and bad. did you see the way he put both hands on the dude in the CSPAN tape. WTF was that? it was an all time power move……i’m so powerful i can put both hands on your shoulders after i said something to totally weird you out, and yeah anyone else doing it would like a total ijiot, but, hey i’m US Senator from Del (D)
anytime someone argues that the “model minority” syndrome is a myth, you can refer them to this. thanks jan jani for making it so plain.
Why is there a need to be recognised as a strong comminuty, when we have a whole country to call our own. I wish there was such strong emotional force that would have us want to belong to India and be strong Indians. If we want to become strong and change the people around us to get attention then can’t we foucs on our values that we carry from home and let everything fall in right place by itself. These are just some thought that crossed my mind while reading the comments.
I note with much interest that you didn’t make this brilliant statement on either Abhi’s or Manish’s posts on THE SAME INCIDENT, in which they take the SAME position that I did. Golly…I wonder why you didn’t accuse them of similar. I also notice that you like to make stupid generalizations about me. That, Jan Jani, makes you a JERK, and a sad one at that, since you prioritize what others might think over our right to speak.
Ennis, it’s only a bit of an exaggeration to say every Dunkin Donuts in the New York metro area is bong and specifically Bangladeshi. It’s actually one of the things I’m most proud of–despite the fact that they don’t necessarily treat the workers well.
This, of course, raises the point again that DESI DOES NOT EQUAL INDIAN (shouting not directed at you, Ennis) and is illustrative of the extent to which Biden is reinforcing preexisting stereotypes. Of course, I agree with a few people above that this is really insignificant compared to things like, say, the nuclear deal. Or to put it more productively, I hope that the outrage over this–to the extent that it exists and is not manufactured–is the starting point for more outrage against racism, sexism, worker exploitation, etc.–both structural and single-incident oriented–rather than an end in and of itself.
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Paging Dr. Freud 😉
Give me a break. Plenty of people posted and commented on this before ANNA said a word, and there is no reason to ridicule her for doing so.
Anyone who can definitively make sense of what Biden was trying to say is indeed either brilliant or clairvoyant.
Ditto to what Saurav says in his second paragraph in comment #60.
Joe Biden is an insufferable windbag – mostly a harmless one, I would agree. He has never figured on my Democratic presidential dream team. Given that most Indians here are NOT in D.D., and Biden probably is more familiar with them at the NIH, in the hi-tech sector, hospitals and universities where he must see a lot of Indians with or without accents, reflects a certain mindset.
I think for older white American males who grew up seeing and expecting all power concentrated in their own hands, the changes of the last twenty five years may be a bit disconcerting and difficult to internalize. Also, it is comforting at some level to continue believing that all women are secretaries, African Americans are on welfare, the Chinese do laundry, Hispanics take care of the landscaping and in this case, Indians are pumping gas and manning convenience stores. That way you can go on believing that they are not threatening your job. (To hear my redneck Texas plumber speak, I sometimes almost begin to believe that my husband and son are about to usurp his job. He also has some “simple” solutions to the Iraq problem.)
Anna: You go girl!
AK and Vivek- I am like a whole day late on responding….I was referring to the Indian American community specifically, but think the same general issues (at least the domestic ones) apply community wide, whether your term of choice is “desi” or “South Asian American.” AK- we’re on the same page. I just think this whole thing is a hell of a lot more interesting and instructive when you look at the media motivation and the class issues these remarks bring up within our community.
Jaya wrote: Why is there a need to be recognised as a strong comminuty, when we have a whole country to call our own. I wish there was such strong emotional force that would have us want to belong to India and be strong Indians. If we want to become strong and change the people around us to get attention then can’t we foucs on our values that we carry from home and let everything fall in right place by itself.
While I can appreciate your sentiment, I guess going back to the question of which community I was referring to, I mean the immigrant, American part of our community. My parents immigrated here but even THEY are Americans now. I’m an American of Indian origin who does carry with me many traditions and values of my country of origin, but this is MY home now and I don’t really consider India or “whole country I can call my own.” Even if I did, it would not mitigate the need or desire to be a an active productive part of my country of citizenship, the United States, and to have the same opportunities as everyone else.
Indians who have remained in India probably have the strong emotional force you are referring to. I believe my extended family, cousins, etc. do. I did spend a significant amount of time in India as a young adult….. and the experience made me feel more American than anything….
Today’s (Saturday’s) NYT has an article “…MAgician…” about Zinedine Zidane. Check out the one comment the reporter makes about ZZ growing up in a cramped Marseilles flat and how it is related to him being such a great “mover in small spaces….” YUCK!!
I apologise if i have misrepresented in my comment. I do still believe that to earn appreciation of others we have to firt appreciate ourselves. If we feel proud to be desi then no one or no statement can put us down. As we learn from our scriptures that we become exactly what we create around us. People around us only project our own mind and beliefs. If we learn to look inside of us and find peace then we will see peace around us. When we look at a person and see the soul that makes the person then we will be able to turely feel and express the essense of “namaste”. which means ” I honour the light in you”. Once we are able to do this….we can only be proud of being desi. Then we will be above our identity as immigrants or Indians. We will then give and receive nothing but respect and honour.
Saurav (#60):
Point taken. I’d assumed that Biden knew specifically which country he was talking about (when referring to Dunkin’ Donuts, etc.), but you’re right, this might not have been the case.
tashie:
Ruchira Paul:
Some of you seem to feel that there is a class issue here as if small business workers/owners are lower class than doctors or engineers.(Today’s small business worker is tomorrows owner.) Don’t tell me that it was Joe Biden who implied it. Let me assure you that, WE don’t feel that way. My mother owned a indian grocery and my father has a lab. They are both graduate degree holders and both have accents and all of us worked behind the counter. My medical resident husband would rather be holding Dunkin Donut franchises than “takin it up the ass from his attending (doctor) every 5th day!” (his words, not mine.) If you don’t think desis are not a strong presence in 7-11s, DDs, and numerous other small businesses you need to get out more. Stop acting insulted on our behalf! That’s insulting!
Start by watching this program with Fareed Zakaria
Interview
Joe Biden has met me and many other desi business owners on his recent circuit gathering support for his run. He got to listen to some of our issues. I don’t know if we’ll support Joe Biden but I don’t get insulted by remarks that can be taken any which way. He was talking to a crowd he’s met before.
Please stop being Drama Queens!
Rasudha: Calm down before you go all haughty on me! I am hardly offended on your behalf now that you have described in detail your antecedents. Heck, I am not even offended for myself. I just think Biden was being stupid.
Most Indians in the US are NOT in D.D or 7-11 – I stand by that statement. The fact that quite a few are, is a good thing. In fact I would hope to see Indians on the farms of the midwest, in philosophy departments (rather than just engineering and med schools) and as life guards on beaches. I was not being supercilious here as you may have presumed. That your M.D. husband would like a D.D franchise is an admirable thing. You should support him in that venture. I am just as averse to Indians being portrayed solely as cab drivers and gas station owners as I am to them being presumed to be cardiologists and spelling bee aces.
My point about Biden was that as a US senator, he is more likely to come in contact with the types of Indians that I enumerated. I hardly think he hangs around in the local seven-eleven or Dunkin’ Donuts franchises until it is time to press the flesh every six years at election time. Which is why his picking the other, less familiar (to him) stereotype of Indians was troubling. Which is also why I speculated that it may be a knee jerk comfort net to think that way about minorities – “keep them in their place”, in other words. Or who knows? Perhaps the dummy was trying to be folksy. But the foot is firmly wedged in his Irish mouth, as Anna said.
Rasudha:
Point well taken, I stand corrected (If only more people, cough Jan Jani cough could do the same) 🙂 thanks for the link and your comments, I just watched the interview.
I didn’t mean to be insulting or that I look down on people who work in small businesses (esp. not small business owners). I have family members who have their own businesses and friends etc. I was just speaking from my own experience in NZ where Asian immigration in large numbers has been v recent and so many desis who do work in Subway etc. are not near being owners but part-time/full-time workers in low wage jobs.
Owning a small business or franchise is v different from being employed in a low wage job in a franchise that is part of a corporation, though. I know it’s the American Dream to work your way up from sweeping the floor to owning the store, but I was just wondering how many people would get there? It’s not just an Indian thing, I’ve seen graduates working in Starbucks without the possibility given to them of moving up beyond their position, and to me that lack of possibility is demeaning. I know that a Dunkin Donuts represents different things to you, but where I live there is a definite difference between business owners and business workers.
Also with class issues if you read my comment I specifically mentioned the class issues in the Indian subcontinent, not in the western world. I live in a country where a plumber or a sparkie gets paid much more than doctors/lawyers, and I used to live in a small town where the guy with the nicest house in town was a fisherman 🙂 And I am really thankful that things are way more laxed out here.
I was not proud of my cringe-ing or that of others, but I just wanted to admit something that’s part of my hangover of living in India or knowing an older generation of Indians who do have a strong professionalism mantra. I know that it’s not a positive thing but I know that a lot of Indians I know do have it as part of their own lingering prejudices.
I think it’s great when Indians own business. But I will never think it’s great when any adult gets stuck in a low-wage job, being paid the same as a teenager, without any possibility to move beyond where they are, is all.
tashie,
A lot of people dont realize that there is a system followed by small business owning desis who co-opt family members to work their businesses in return for future loan/aid in opening their own business. That’s how these people are succeeding. Outsiders don’t know that. They aren’t being menials for the rest of their lives. They are investing in their future. Most of them that is. We take time to talk to people who came into our store so we know about it. A lot of these people end up being more successful than your average professional. And the next generation does even better. A successful Gujju once told me: “Work in a motel, buy your own motel, buy more motels, trade them for a holiday inn. That’s how I made my money!” Another guy owns a series of Arby’s chains. His two children are doctors now but everyone remembers them at the drive-thru window.
My parents came as professionals and ended up owning small businesses because it was better investment. I understand the attitude many indians have toward 7-11 owners, etc. But its their hang-up.
Also with class issues if you read my comment I specifically mentioned the class issues in the Indian subcontinent, not in the western world. I live in a country where a plumber or a sparkie gets paid much more than doctors/lawyers, Tashie ji,
Even in India, the richest guy/ gal around the block is not a doctor/ lawayer, it is a businessman of limited education. Wipro started as a soap/ deterrgent company, then moved to many other things, and now is one of the largest IT outsourcing company in the world. I get the feeling you that lot of people like to pull classes/ caste in India card out of the blue, when do they have to a rope-a-dope trick.
I have serious doubts about their deeper understanding of India. Do you know the background of Dirubhai Ambani, the founder of Reliance Industries? He was an errand boy.
I have followed Joe Biden’s career since 1988 faux pass. He is an extremely strong senate committee man, not a broad-based, country wide, mass appeal guy.
There is a lot of working class Indian Americans/ immigrants in USA. I think his observations should be taken in proper stride, I somewhat second rasudha.
After you.
Ruchira Paul:
Did you see the Newsweek interview?? Didn’t that give you an idea of where he could have met your 7-11/DD owners?
I repeat: ”I’ve had a great relationship. In Delaware, the largest growth in population is Indian-Americans moving from India. You cannot go to a 7-Eleven or a Dunkin’ Donuts unless you have a slight Indian accent. I’m not joking,” is Not Offensive when you think that he met these people at his fund-raisers!!!!! and like myself doesn’t believe they have anything to be ashamed of!!!!! either in being 7-11 owners, having accents or otherwise.
Jeez…How’s that for a rant 🙂 Now I need a drink!
Jan Jani:
I didn’t know he was against outsourcing.
I was parodying the way politicians apologize.
Well put.
Kush Tandon:
Or the politician of even limited education…
Communis Rixatrix: 🙂
I don’t usually comment on SM posts, but I thought as a Delawarean I should offer some remarks to clear up some issues about our senior Senator.
Saurav:
I guess there’s been some confusion about Senator Biden’s intelligence with respect to understanding the differences in the titles we give ourselves. I’m not saying he’s a genius…most politicians are not. But when it comes to international affairs, which encompasses South Asian matters, Biden knows his stuff. If you asked him, he’d be able to tell you anything and everything you would ever want to know about the region and its people, and he has usually been sensitive to differentiate between the many titles we use. It’s one thing to call for an apology for his unfortunate comments, but it’s a bit of a stretch to question his knowledge on “South Asian” vs “of a specific country.”
Ruchira Paul:
While I understand where you’re coming from with this argument (based on his ill-spoken comments), I just wanted to point out that Joe Biden has been supportive of and enthusiastic about the growth and changes in the South Asian community in DE for the past twenty five years. He is indeed an older, white American male, but I don’t think I can ever imagine him as having a difficult time internalizing the relative success of South Asians in the state. He seems to take joy and pride in our accomplishments. I think I might be stepping into dangerous territory here, but I’ll try my hand at it anyway. We don’t really have too many non-Indian South Asians in DE, and as such there’s no real cohesive group for us. There is a sizable, cohesive Indian community, though, and he makes every effort to go to the Indo-American events and show his support of them and their recent accomplishments. I don’t think he could possibly visit every brown (I believe a commenter once used “lightly toasted”) family in the state, but I can tell you that most South Asian families in the state respect Joe Biden and believe he respects and appreciates their accomplishments.
Ennis:
I’m honestly not sure how it works elsewhere, but in Delaware just about every Dunkin’ Donuts is owned by an Indian of some kind. Most (if not all) of the 30-something shops in Northern DE are owned and operated by Gujarati families in the area. I haven’t really visited too many doughnut shops across the country, but I can say that at least in the DE/NJ/PA area most Dunkins are owned by Gujarati families. He likely wasn’t smoking anything when he made that comment—he’s been known to stick his foot in his mouth more times than one can imagine. It’s unfortunate that he made this comment about a community that is likely his most loyal support base in the state, but I personally don’t think he meant to insult anyone by it. I can easily see him messing up when trying to say “You can’t walk into a Dunkin’ Donuts or 7-11 without hearing an Indian accent,” which would be a very true statement. Yes, he should have corrected himself if this was the case.
NYC Man:
“You can’t be in __ unless you are ___” is not what he said, yeah? I’m not saying his quote was excellent or anything (far from it), but one should not change someone else’s words around like that. Also, owning or working in a Dunkin’ Donuts is perfectly respectable profession…how does it compare to committing crimes?
A N N A:
I don’t think he sliced our community apart on class lines. We do own a lot of Dunkin’ Donuts, and a lot of us speak with thick accents. It’s a shame that no mass media services have played all the clips of Biden praising the Indian community over the years. They chose this one, when most Indians in Delaware won’t take offense to this. I understand the problem reaches wider because that comment helps perpetuate stereotypes, but that doesn’t make it right for us to say things like he “sliced our community apart on class lines.” If you’re going to rip him apart, rip him apart right! Interesting graphic, by the way. Biden does indeed get a lot of campaign contributions from the MBNA PAC because MBNA (now Bank of America Card Services) is one of the largest employers in the state. That doesn’t mean MBNA elected him. Delaware did. He’s well-liked in Delaware…we put him in office because we think he does a good job, not because he has flashy campaign ads funded by his campaign contributions.
Tashie,
I am really sorry if I came too harsh.
However, the enterprising class in India has never cared too much about the trapping of education, at least for the first generation be it Ambanis, Premjis, or anyone else. The current CEO of Wipro, Azim Premji took a leave of absense from Stanford when his father died. At that time, they more a soap factory, and now………..
Azim Premji is shia muslim, which even in muslims a minority in South Asian muslims. Talking of class. Definitely, they are not the norm.
Some exceprts from Stanford website, they are pretty telling:
He finished his Stanford degree 30 years later.
sorry: WIPRO was a cooking oil factory.
Quaker09 and Mini bring up good points about the Indian-American community and its growth in Delaware, a trend I feel is reflected in Senator Biden’s poorly timed remark on C-SPAN. Delaware is home to a great many pharmaceutical, credit card, and banking corporations. It is also home to the University of Delaware (and several community colleges) and the Christiana Care hospital network. The majority of Indian-Americans who have been in Delaware the longest are primarily employed professionals in these corporations and the demographic of DEÂ’s community was originally largely upper-middle-class. As corporate and residential development in Delaware has increased, so has the need for waged labor, and recently more Indian-Americans have become employed in these types of jobs. Dunkin Donuts, McDonalds, gas stations, motels, and liquor stores are where most of this wave of immigrants are employed. It just so happens that Gujaratis are dominantly the microcosm of the IA community who own and operate these fine establishments. In parallel, there is a broader spectrum of income types among Indian-Americans in Delaware today than say 34 years ago when Biden first came into office. This trend is probably what Biden was referring to when he made his lame joke.
Sen. Biden has consistently shown his interests in the Indian-American community. From a purely political standpoint, he shows up to campaign, usually more culturally sensitive than he was on C-SPAN, at many Indian-American events that happen in DE. IÂ’ve personally seen him at the annual programs held by the Indo-American Association of Delaware as well as the inauguration of the Hindu Temple of DE. He likes the Indian-American community because they are loyal and help keep him in office every six years. However, Biden is also a really nice guy, he is well-informed about the political concerns of the Indian-American community, and he does show his compassion readily. Anyway, when Biden said what he said on C-SPAN, IÂ’d bet that it was probably a Freudian slip rather than a malicious attack. All that noise can make a man say funny things…
This is really helpful, Quaker09. Thank you.
Continuing the discussion from the “Jingoism” thread, RC said:
As I mentioned over there, I think you really are severely misinterpreting both Biden’s statement itself and many of the comments in these pages in response to it. To begin with, Biden himself made his comment in the context of at least trying to praise the Indian American community, and did so directly to an Indian American individual. So there’s not really much of a basis to conclude that he intended the comment in a derogatory or negative way — the guy was out on the campaign trail, for goodness sakes. Call me crazy, but it sure didn’t seem like Biden was trying to create a Sister Souljah moment with this young desi guy by showing the restof the country how tough he is with the growing menace of Indian Americans taking over our nation’s sensitive and critical infrastructure in Dunkin Donuts and 7-11s. (Or whatever.)
But obviously, many people here do nevertheless think that Biden’s comment was offensive, racist, in bad taste, or something to that effect (pick your characterization as appropriate for the particular commenter). Myself included, at least at some level. So what, then, was wrong with Biden’s comment? I think that’s actually a fair question worth lingering on more directly than we have — perhaps this discussion has treated that question as too obvious to address, or maybe it’s just so hard to understand what Biden was trying to say when he was blabbing away that we have sidestepped the issue of making our own responses to that comment intelligible. But it probably is worthwhile to try to spell that out a bit more clearly.
To get at least some hint of that, you really should go back and re-read the comments here more carefully — I think it’s fair to say that for a great number of the folks commenting on this issue who found Biden’s comment offensive or troubling at some level, the “crux of the issue” is not that they are offended at the notion that someone would identify Indian Americans as being Dunkin Donuts “workers” (as you would have it) — as if that’s some great insult — but rather are assering a more complex set of concerns about propagation and perpetuation of stereotypes. I’ll let folks speak for themselves and explain where they are coming from, rather than trying to put words in their mouths. But I don’t really read most of the folks involved in this discussion — neither Anna, Abhi, nor Manish, neither Tashie, Vivek, MD, nor Mini, nor really most of the other folks commenting here or in Abhi’s thread — to be saying anything of the sort.
In fact, quite to the contrary, Ruchira, for example, states explicitly her belief that “[t]he fact that quite a few [Indian Americans] are [working in Dunkin Donuts or 7-11] is a good thing.” Saurav notes that Bengali ownership of Dunkin Donuts franchises is “actually one of the things [he’s] most proud of.”
(I also don’t accept your premise — if he had made the comments you have written about high tech firms or hospitals, I think many folks might indeed have taken issue with those statements for similar, if not identical, reasons. It obviously would depend on the context in which those hypothetical statements were made, and what the statements actually were. As Vivek wisely noted earlier in this discussion, context matters deeply in making sense of and evaluating these kinds of comments.)
To be sure, there are a couple of comments similar to yours, such as the odd statement released by Dr. Vijay. Those comments don’t really make much sense to me — they are really not responsive to what Biden actually said, tortured and weird and confusing though that statement was, and since they don’t really explain specifically how and why they are reading Biden’s statement the way that they are, it’s hard to evaluate and make sense of them.
But this actually is an important thing to try to understand and be clear about. For if the underlying claim in those responses — and yours — is that it is somehow degrading or offensive that Indian Americans (or anyone else) would be identified as working in Dunkin Donuts or 7-11 at all — well, then I find that suggestion considerably more offensive than anything that Biden actually said or reasonably may be understood to have intended.
to me the bottom line is that biden has a tin ear, as he has done a long time, as do most politicians, of both parties. it seems to come with the job. the underlying problem is that the political establishment is overwhelmingly white and deeply self-referential, it renews itself at a snail’s pace (look at how few congress seats change hands each election), and like any in-group it has problems dealing with new communities. so you get these politicians making dumb statements, and that gets people like us in a tizzy about whether said statements are offensive or not. we can debate that til the cows come home, and surely it depends on context etc., but the unchanging fact is that we’d get fewer dumb statements if we actually voted out these perennial incumbents from time to time. they’re a complacent lot, and we pay the price for their complacency, as well as their salaries.
Not ownership dude. Workers. Chatting. Nice people 🙂
Saurav — Sorry! But that fits my point better anyway. 😉
(i.e., your correction fits my point better.)
AK:
Thanks for having the patience to read my (and similar ones)comment carefully and make sense of it.
Quaker 09 Thanks for explaining Senator Biden’s possible motivation. I still think that he is a windbag – albeit a non-malicious one. I don’t base my opinion only on his silly quip about Indians and Dunkin’ Donuts.
I believe that anyone who ventures to characterize a large, diverse group of people by assigning narrow attributes (good, bad or indifferent) to its members, does so at his/her own peril. The result is often a demeaning and infantilizing one for the group and an embarrassing “foot in the mouth” for the speaker. Unless people explicitly define themselves as in the case of political or religious groups, we should not automatically presume anything about their interests, capabilities or their philosophies. Having seen this stereotyping game from both the negative and positive ends of the spectrum, I am convinced of its perniciousness. I would invite anyone who cares to look at yet another blog, to read my commentary on this matter which I posted a few months ago where I was actually responding to a Jewish co-blogger who was happy about positive Jewish stereotypes.
Dynamiting one enemy post after the other.
Vivek
I was too timepressed to deliberate in my post and thus preempt your trite arguments, like the one below:
Guess what! While we are all part of this South Asian group, we are also individuals with our own opinions and sensibilities
I had meant to say most browsers ( other than regular commenters here ) would just glance at the original post and move on without discovering the diversity of comments in the thread that follows the post. The bloggers’ on this site I am afarid to say usually don’t show much diversity of opinion on such issues.
Offense is often taken when it was not intended.
ANNA
Just because your hypocricy and arrogance get such a freepass from the mostly spineless commenters, you have indeed begun to believe your posts and comments to be foolproof.
I note with much interest that you didn’t make this brilliant statement on either Abhi’s or Manish’s posts on THE SAME INCIDENT, in which they take the SAME position that I did.
Manish is no longer with SM. If Abhi had already said what you mostly wanted to, then why write a redundant post? That’s because Abhi had not taken the SAME position as you did later:
Abhi Please donÂ’t start an email or letter writing campaign :). This may have just been a very poorly executed joke on BidenÂ’s part.
And this is what you demanded ( implicitly ):
I keep waiting to hear a “sorry”, “my apologies”, “oops” or even a “dude…my bad”, but he’s got nothing useful like that for us, which is too bad
Not too long ago you continued to cling to shameless Kaavya’s defense even though one damning evidence after the other kept piling up against her. But you couldn’t give the benefit of the doubt to a man who has consistently been friendly to Indians? With your self declared interests in Congressional politics you ought to know at least half of what Ash58 knows about Biden. I know someone before me pointed out your Kaavya-Biden hypocricy but the charge is worth pursuing because you so callously ran away from it the first time:
Hmmmm…. What happened to compassionate, benefit-of-the-doubt-giving Akka-ANNA? Wow…you really got me. I’m such a hypocrite. I’ll go cry now.
How do you explain the following?
May some nice desi 7-11 worker get down on her knees and give him a big free slurpee. Why not “his knees”?
Does that remark offend you only as long as it’s a ‘she’?
That, Jan Jani, makes you a JERK
I am sure you have several skeletons in your blogboard to qualify you as a superjerk, but I’ll allow others to make that judgment.
Siddhartha:
Where do I even begin with you man. If anyone ever argues that ” Minority Head Up His/Her Victim Ass ” is a myth, he or she should first read the following golden words excerpted from your soccer post: Last year, severe riots and disturbances in the squalid working-class suburbs of Paris and other cities reminded France and the world that the daily lives of people of color in France are fraught with obstacles and discrimination; not that the complacent political class and intellectual elite seem much interested in doing anything about it.
or this nugget: the underlying problem is that the political establishment is overwhelmingly white
and the piece de resistance was his post about the Whitey visiting a Temple in Delhi. A text book case of taking offense where none was intended. I can’t find it. If someone does, please link it.
Tashie
(If only more people, cough Jan Jani cough could do the same) 🙂 Just speak for your (apologist) self.
AK
Anyone who can definitively make sense of what Biden was trying to say is indeed either brilliant or clairvoyant.
A big thank you!
jan jani,
nicely done dude. you’ve called anna arrogant and a hypocrite, informed me my head is up my ass, called the commenters here spineless, called comments that criticize you “enemy” and announced you are “dynamiting” them, insulted several of our valued regular commenters, and generally made a nuisance of yourself. you have no arguments, merely invective, and apparently some anger issues you might want to look into. you are not welcome in this house. your comment stands, for posterity. as for you, see you later alligator.
peace
Jan Jani stated:Dynamiting one enemy post after the other.
Siddhartha:you are not welcome in this house.
Dude Jan Jani, Seems like you stepped on a landmine!
AMfD,
i know this is in bad taste but i’d prefer to call it an IED — improvised editorial device!
peace
For the record, Jan Jani, I was NOT accusing ANNA of being a hypocrite, and don’t for a second think that she is one. She might very well regard the two situations as different, which is entirely within the realm of reasonable possibility. Or alternatively, perhaps upon reflection and in dialogue with people in this discussion she might come to have a different view of one or the other situation, which would simply be a sign that she is thoughtful individual capable of listening and reflecting upon her positions, and learning from new situations. I was simply inviting her to elaborate upon where she was coming from, and while I intended to do so playfully, it obviously wasn’t stated in the best way because it was misinterpreted both by her and by you — although curiously, your misinterpretation has come after my clarification. I fully trust that she now understands what I intended. Whether or not she chooses to respond to the issue I was implicitly raising — now, later, never — is entirely her prerogative, and I don’t regard her as a hypocrite if she chooses not to. Life is short, and there are a lot of other discussions in this blog to pay attention to.
Also for the record, I have no trouble accusing you, Jan Jani, of being neither brilliant nor clairvoyant, but rather a dimwitted hothead.
Number Six —
Amen!
I watched the so called controversial clip of Sen. Biden, he does mention 7-11 et-al and in the same breath he did say ” 30 % of Silicon Valley CEOs are Indians”. The CEO part appear nowhere in the discussions, if the mere mentioning of Indians owming of 7-11s, make Indians angry, then Indians should not own 7-11s.
hey siddhartha,
wontcha reconsider this?
When I was told off on the Kaavya thread, slightly but still, I dealt with it and moved on. The question didn’t come up of getting rid of the post or the poster. Ah can’t be dealin’ with too much censorship.