‘Temple Cleansing’ in Malaysia and Pakistan

A Indian blogger in Malaysia named Sharanya Manivannan recently posted an open letter to Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, asking him to take a stand on the Hindu temple demolitions that have been occurring in the country:

But I ask you this: when temples that stood for over a century are destroyed, what really dies? Not stone and statues. Not bells and prayers. Not — thankfully and thus far — people. You see, what frightens me is not the loss of these temples themselves, though architecturally speaking, that too is often a disappointment. What frightens me is what these temples are taken to represent, and by extension, what their demolitions therefore represent. (link)

[Note: if the link doesn’t work, try going to Sharanya’s blog]

Elsewhere in the letter she points out that the Indian government did send a letter of “official displeasure” to the Danish government following the publication of the anti-Islamic cartoons. Why the silence so far on the “temple cleansing” in Malaysia? She also makes some poignant comments about how Indians are treated as a whole in Malaysia, which I’ll quote below the fold.

Some background: In the past few months, Malaysian authorities have demolished a number of Hindu temples in different parts of the country, stating that they were built without a proper permit. But local Hindus have complained that they had applied for permits, sometimes waiting as long as 30 years for a response! Moreover, according to the BBC, at least two of the temples destroyed were more than a century old, which clearly suggests that getting a permit to build is not at all the issue driving the demolitions. Indeed, it seems pretty clear that these demolitions are part of an organized campaign in a country that is growing increasingly intolerant of religious minorities. (Churches and other religious structures have also been demolished along the same lines.)

Indians make up about 8% of the settled population of Malaysia, which amounts to about 2 million people, and the majority are Hindus. For the most part they have lived in Malaysia in peace (communal violence is very rare), but Indian Malaysians do often complain of discrimination and mistreatment. They have traditionally been a working class population, who came to Malaysia initially to work on rubber plantations. This turn is especially sad, as Malaysia (like Indonesia) has ancient connections to India and Hinduism. Tamil traders established settlements there as far back as the third century A.D., and ruins of ancient Hindu temples have recently been discovered.

Which brings us back to Sharanya Manivannan. In her blog post, she talks about a picture she saw in the newspaper that encapsulated for her the emotion these temple demolitions provoke in her. It was a picture unrelated to the demolitions, but somehow it triggered her to finally take some positive action:

It was a newpaper picture of a retired gardener, S. Sarimuthu, whose only daughter had died on June 11th as a result of viral eningoencephalitis and secondary pneumonia contracted while at National Service camp. In this picture of him, which I can’t find online, he looks profoundly forlorn. He looks like his heart had been wrenched out of his body, pounded to a pulp, and then poured back inside.

This picture made me cry and cry and cry, and then write this letter. And cry even more the morning after I did, as I explained to someone what made me do it. The family wasn’t Hindu. The girl wasn’t the victim of genocidal hate-mongering. But I saw that picture and in my mind I saw that father at hospitals, at home — I saw the way the nurses looked at him, the way the doctors spoke to him, the way hospital authorities dismissed him as she slipped into a coma. I saw him throughout his life, I saw the way this [f-ing] state in one way or another has taken away even this, even her. I saw the colour of his skin and the sheer, unmitigated loss in his eyes, the way his loss and the loss of these temples were entwined, and I could not not write this letter. (link)

Hindu groups are starting to organize and actively protest. The Indian Financial Express reports that Indian groups have been appealing to the Prime Minister of the country.

Also, in some of the press coverage of the temple demolitions, some Malaysian authorities have begun to express concern that Hindus may begin to turn violent in resisting the demolitions. In fact, the tenor of the resistance is already changing: several people were injured and arrested when they refused to vacate the premises of a temple that was about to be demolished. I wouldn’t advocate violence, obviously. But it may be time to get Gandhian on their asses: mass public demonstrations, and a campaign of nonviolent resistance. (And yes, Sharanya, keep blogging about it: make it personal, tell the world your version of the story.)

Two additional wrinkles:

While the Malaysian press, according to the blogger Sharanya I quoted above, has remained silent about the Hindu temple demolitions occurring in the country, I did find articles about the Hindu temple demolition that recently occurred in Lahore. [UPDATE: The demolition may not have occurred at all.]

Secondly, a version of this has been occuring in recent months (in reverse) in India itself, as an important 300 year old Sufi Dargah was pulled down in Vadodara (formerly Baroda), leading to communal riots that left six people dead. To be clear, Mandirs were also demolished in this campaign (now halted) in the interest of “development,” but the lead-in to the Express India story reminds us that India isn’t immune to indifference to the concerns of religious minorities:

Two demolition drives, and two different ways of going about it. So while in Gujarat’s cultural capital Vadodara, the BJP went about doing a “balancing act” by razing a 300-year-old dargah, in Rajkot, the BJP fought the Municipal Commissioner tooth and nail for removing a small temple that was encroaching on RMC land. (link)

86 thoughts on “‘Temple Cleansing’ in Malaysia and Pakistan

  1. Thank you, Amardeep, for picking this up. Thank you for drawing attention for what is happening.

    Two small things: 1. I’m not Malaysian. I live in Malaysia but I am Indian, with an Indian passport and no other citizenship or permanent resident ties. You can understand why I would feel strongly about this. 2. The first mention of mine name is mis-spelled. Sharanya Manivannan. (nitpick, I know. Sorry)

  2. Pakistan has recently issued a statement that the Hindu temple in Lahore has not been demolished. The initial reports were bogus.

  3. Article from Pakistani newspaper Dawn from May 28, 2006 on Lahore temple demolishment: Another temple is no more.

    Excerpts: LAHORE, May 27: In violation of its own scheme for management and disposal of urban evacuee properties, the Evacuee Trust Property Board (EPTB) has allowed a jeweller to demolish a Hindu temple and construct a commercial building in its place at Wachhowali in Rang Mahal…The Krishna Mandir, where the influential jeweller has been allowed to build a commercial plaza, was probably the only Hindu temple which still had remnants of a place of worship. This no longer is the case because the entire building, except a small portion facing the Wachhowali lane, has already been brought down by the developer…When a Dawn photographer visited the place early this week to take pictures of whatever was left of the temple, he was immediately surrounded by the henchmen of the developer. “Leave this place,” they told him. “This is private property. We have invested millions of rupees. It has nothing to do with the EPTB. There was no Hindu temple here. If you are looking for a temple, go look a little farther,” they told him when he insisted on taking a picture of the remnants of the temple.

  4. To be clear, Mandirs were also demolished in this campaign (now halted) in the interest of “development,” but the lead-in to the Express India story reminds us that India isn’t immune to indifference to the concerns of religious minorities:

    18 temples were razed in Vadodara only 1 Dargah. Yes, the BJP is the root of all the ills of India.

  5. Sharanya, I fixed it (sorry!).

    Kumble, after seeing your comment, I did find a link along the lines that the temple wasn’t demolished after all. This story is all over the Indian media, and if it’s wrong that is a big deal, since quite a number of people in the Indian government have already made very noisy statements of protest about it.

  6. RC, It was a 300 year old Dargah. Note that the emphasis of this post is on on the destruction of Hindu temples in Malaysia, which I am outraged by.

  7. Today Pakistan issues a statement saying the temple wasn’t demolished. Tomorrow there will be reports that question whether there was a temple in that building in the first place. Subterfuge as usual on the subcontinent.

    Reports about Malaysian temple demolishments are kinda far more disturbing because these seemed to happen out of nowhere

  8. Wow, thanks for this post. The reasons provided for demolishing these temples sound highly suspect. It’s great to hear that people are organizing and resisting.

  9. Amardeep, I agree that the Dargah was 300 year old, but what troubles me is that there is no data on the temples that were destroyed. As if they dont count. (For the record, I have lived in Vadodara from last year of high school and college) For me the destruction of temple doesnt mean a thing. They usually do impede traffic and general development, but so do these Dargahs. And I assure you this was not the last Dargah in Vadodara.

    The outrage was only felt when the "Dargah" was demolished. If only Temples were razed it would not even have been news-worthy.  I mean cmon lets get some perspective here. 
    
    I read your post and understood your position on being troubled by the destruction of temple in Malaysia, but then by adding the last paragraph you seemed (at least to me) to do the same kind of <b>balancing</b> by quoting, BJP's actions.
    

    the BJP went about doing a ᅵbalancing actᅵ

    Would India (or any other nation for that matter) be better if there were only one effective party (Congress in case of India)??? I think here in the US, it is called "dictatorships" (I am referring to BATH party), which are fair game to be bombed illegally without concern.
    
  10. RC, It’s true that comprehensive information on the temples that have been demolished is lacking in the English-language media, though editorials like this one suggest the temples were more recent constructions. And numbers shouldn’t be too determinative: remember that Muslims are the minority, so there will be fewer religious shrines to begin with. (Note: If anyone reading this is actually in or near Vadodara and can supply us with more specifics, that would be appreciated.) I doubt the omission is because of bias; probably most reporters simply don’t know.

    If you read the rest of the article I linked to, you see the double standard in the way it played out:

    But the BJP has the modus operandi worked out: If senior BJP leaders like Nalin Bhatt and a host of VMC councillors remained at the site to ensure the razing of Sayed Rashiuddin Chistiï¿œs dargah, in Rajkot, BJP councillor from ward number 18, Narendra Dav, led a 3,000-strong mob on April 18 to stop demolition of the temple. He even presented Kumar with a list of religious structures of the minority community that should be included in the demolition drive. But Kumar refused to, saying they werenï¿œt encroaching on RMC land. That was what landed him in trouble.
    When approached, BJP Rajkot president Dhansukh Bhanderi said: ᅵᅵWe believe in development and want to avoid controversy. The BJP does not object to removal of any religious structure, whether at Rajkot or Vadodara, if it is illegal.ᅵᅵ In the past, he said, several deris and temples had been removed in Vadodara and Rajkot.
    Thatï¿œs what heï¿œs saying now. But thatï¿œs not what the 18-odd councillors said when they barged into Municipal Commissioner Mukesh Kumarï¿œs office by breaking open the iron grill and assaulted him.

    In one place, the councillors stuck around to make sure the ‘kaam’ got done, while in another the councillors led a mob to protect a temple ordered demolished, and even physically assaulted the RMC commissioner. To me that is a clear double-standard: they follow the law only when it suits them.

    More links: A police inquiry; a new survey by the Vadodara Municipal Corporation; a plea for preservation in the TOI; and a very detailed account of what happened in Vadodara leading up to and following the destruction of the Dargah. That last link makes for eye-opening reading.

  11. My friend Ranya is right, I totally agree. I’m not hindu, I’m malay in this country but I assume one of the reason behind the ‘temple cleansing’ in this country is because the authorities are afraid that other religion will influence Islam in this country. In Islam you are suppose to be kind and never belittle and look-down others because humans are divine because of their differences. It’s a shame what they are doing, and there’s no real excuse for it.

  12. >>…Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, asking him to take a stand on the Hindu temple demolitions that have been occurring in the country

    I hope Manmohan Singh does not respond to this. His job is to serve the interests of a billion Indians – not to save temples from demolition in Malaysia or Pakistan. If there is any active discrimination against Indian citizens, then he could step in.

    I simply fail to understand the mentality of Hindus who have made no effort to understand the nature of the societies/countries they live in, and when shit hits the fan, they come snivelling to the Indian government for help.

    I had an argument with some people who were planning to protest the Pope’s assertion that Hinduism was false. They wanted the Pope to recognise Hinduism as a valid path on par with Christianity!! I told the demented idiots that if the Pope recognises this, then he will be not doing his job, which is to increase his flock by any means possible. If he recognises Hinduism as an equal, then he would be striking at the roots of Christianity! It took me more than two hours before the politically-correct brainwashed morons finally understood what I was saying.

    Malaysian Hindus have not learnt the true nature of Islam. True to many Hindus’ myopic ways, they have failed to see the sudden change in the last decade or so in that part of the world due to influence of Arabic Wahabiism. They deserve their temples to be demolished and to be forcibly converted.

    M. Nam

  13. RC

    Given the situation in Gujarat in which a genocide took place only four years ago in which dozens, if not hundreds of dargahs and mosques were deliberately razed to the ground and destroyed alongside the pogroms of Muslims, it is not difficult to see why the demolition of the dargah was controversial. I take it you live in America? Just imagine four years ago the Ku Klux Klan in league with elected officials and the police decided to carry out a pogrom of Indians in your city, burning to death two thousand Hindus and destroying all your mandirs and shops, then four years later a significant site of worship was earmarked for destruction by the same people who carried out the mass murder of your community. Do you think it would be sensitive or suspicious thing to do? Think about it, because given the tensions and recent history of Gujarat in which Muslims have been persecuted and killed and made refugees in their own land like vermin, the dynamics and perspectives are not quite the same for them as they are for you as a Hindu, are they?

  14. Malaysian Hindus have not learnt the true nature of Islam. True to many Hindus’ myopic ways, they have failed to see the sudden change in the last decade or so in that part of the world due to influence of Arabic Wahabiism. They deserve their temples to be demolished and to be forcibly converted.

    Hail Mogambo!

    Shri MoorNam as usual tells the unvarnished truth about Islam. If only these buffoons knew the truth about Hinduism and our tolerance there would be no comparison. These politically correct morons deserve to be roasted by Mullahs and served as delicacy at Eid carnivals.

    No Hindu is intolerant bigot either.

    Hail Ayodhya Mogambo!

  15. I was under the impression that, technically, Muslims are not supposed to actively destroy places of worship belonging to other religions (and are also not supposed to allow the construction of new non-Islamic holy places on Muslim territory). However, they are supposed to refrain from repairing them due to damage or the usual wear-and-tear, presumably with the intention that the place of worship will thereby subsequently fall into disrepair and disuse.

    That’s my understanding of the orthodox stance on this kind of situation anyway.

  16. The outrage was only felt when the “Dargah” was demolished. If only Temples were razed it would not even have been news-worthy. I mean cmon lets get some perspective here.

    Shri RC, this Amardeep is obviously a Khalistani in the guise of PseudoSecular aiming to destroy India with help of ISI funding of SepiaMutiny. Obviously, Gujarat riots is false history and so Muslims in Gujarat have nothing to fear from authorities when it comes to destroying their dargahs, because 2002 genocide was a conspiracy by Tehelka and Arundhati Roy in league with Pakistan, maybe Wendy Doniger too. Obviously, these Muslims in Gujarat are mad to protest against the angelic government of Gujarat and should be like Hindus who don’t protest when our temples are destroyed, because they have suffered no trauma or victimisation in the last 4 years, not at all, none whatsoever. Nothing happened to make them feel vulnerable, they are stupid irrational idiots for complaining, ingrates and anti-nationals.

    Hail Mogambo!

  17. re: indian SES in malaysia, they have fallen behind under the “New Economic Program.” at one point (e.g., 1970) they were more well off than malays, but they have been hit by the positive affirmative action programs….

  18. This is suprising people? I’m actually surprised there are any Hindu temples left in Pakistan…and as for Malaysia, isn’t the guy running it a Holocaust denier?

    Speedy

  19. Moornam:

    Malaysian Hindus have not learnt the true nature of Islam. True to many Hindus’ myopic ways, they have failed to see the sudden change in the last decade or so in that part of the world due to influence of Arabic Wahabiism. They deserve their temples to be demolished and to be forcibly converted.

    You are being heartless. Is is so easy for Malaysian Hindus to emigrate and start a new life?

  20. I think ANY new constructions of religious buildings (temples — both Hindu and Jewish — mosques, gurudwaras etc) should be banned. Huge amounts of money that could be used for education, hospitals, shelters, orphanages etc get thrown into these buildings — and causes hatred and violence when it comes to bringing them down. Let existing edifices remain, but let us not KEEP adding new ones — has anyone seen the ROADFUL of marble monstrosities on the way from Delhi to Gurgaon? It is scary: these are mostly, though not all, Hindu, and there is this horrible cheap competitive spirit of ‘mine is bigger and louder and more flashy than yours’ that various religious groups are indulging in.

  21. Fink:

    Huge amounts of money that could be used for education, hospitals, shelters, orphanages etc get thrown into these buildings — and causes hatred and violence when it comes to bringing them down. Let existing edifices remain, but let us not KEEP adding new ones —

    You bring up a good point that I had not thought of….

    But I don’t see anything wrong with a couple being built here and there, particularly in places where there is a lack of them. Like in Dubai, where our Hindu brethren didn’t have a place of worship for a long time. Or like a while ago, when the 35,000 strong Pakistani community in Greece (I know! I didn’t know we had that many of our bhaiyas and bhens in Greece!) had gotten a plan to build a mosque approved by the gov’t.

    I still largely agree with you, though. Too many mandhirs already, yaar. And anyway, don’t Hindus have a personal mandhir at home? My folks do. “Bhagwan is to be found at home”, they say. (Not that this means the destruction of existing mandhirs should be dismissed).

  22. CAD,

    Yes, I was actually also wondering whether I should qualify the blanket “no more” a little especially in places where there are almost no buildings-of-worship. Having none of one religion and already existing x number of another does not seem a good way to foster a multicultural landscape or make everyone feel included. However, the problem with ‘a few’ or even ‘one’ is where to draw the line — especially since someone will always end up feeling unrepresented e.g. some group/denomination within assorted religions will feel it is not really their temple cos it is Catholic, Vaishnavite, whatever.

    So…perhaps it would be best to say, enough is enough, no more zoning for houses of worship.

  23. Or, to be precise, zoning laws will not allow any more houses of worship to be constructed.

  24. Huge amounts of money that could be used for education, hospitals, shelters, orphanages etc get thrown into these buildings — and causes hatred and violence when it comes to bringing them down

    A good point indeed. I do think the current places of worship from all faiths and religions should receive protection through governments. May be it’s a good idea to put effort into preserving what we already have rather than add more only to lament again when they are destroyed.

  25. “Or, to be precise, zoning laws will not allow any more houses of worship to be constructed.”

    that’s pretty impossible in a democratic country. the building of places of worship is not the problem (whether the money should be spent on other things is another matter altogether and a personal belief. but oftentimes, many places of worship act as centers for other social services for the poor etc.). the problem is the unregulated building of places of worship, and indeed unregulated/poorly enforced building period in india. witness the recent demolishment drive in delhi, which targetted illegal commercial buildings. zoning laws and building regulations should be revamped and instituted to prevent the proliferation of ugly, unsafe, illegal buildings, be they religious or not. this might stifle some of the unhealthy and ugly competition between religions to outdo one another when it comes to numbers and allow their places of worship to be built in a proper location and in a proper manner.

  26. PGW writes:>>You are being heartless.

    I am being blunt. That’s my style, if you’ve noticed.

    Is is so easy for Malaysian Hindus to emigrate and start a new life

    It’s not easy – but it needs to be done.

    M. Nam

  27. Malaysia is an interesting case, it has been considered an islamic country and part of the “islamic world” whatever that means.. But it is just 60% islamic and 40% profess other religions..

    Too bad India and Nepal did not constitute a “Hindu world”.. even with 82% and more than 95% (??) Hindus respectively.. Well tough luck for the “Hindus”. Any case, the “caste hindus” treat the “lower castes” as “Hindus” only when they worry about “numbers”.. They deserve it.. :-))

  28. Without getting into anything mentioned in the above comments, would just like to check: are you all able to get to the link to the post itself that Amardeep uses above? For some reason, I can no longer access it, and neither can someone in India who wrote to me about it. I don’t know if it’s just the result of traffic overload, or something worse.

  29. It is really sad that there is such a situation in Malaysia. I am not Malaysian and I am not Indian or Hindu but i lived in malaysia for eight years and I have to say that the discrimination of minorities in Malaysia is had always been very evident not necessary politically but also the way people associate or comment about minority groups. But many people go on pretending that everyone is living harmonously. As a Christian I still do not believe in discriminating another’s religion because it is what they believe in. That is one of the leading reasons why we are having unnecessary issues in the world today. There is just no more respect for people’s believes and lifestyle etc.

  30. am also not able to link to the blog anymore. was able to earlier. hope it’s just a technical glitch.

  31. If it is being blocked — wouldn’t only those in Malaysia be unable to see it?

  32. as an important 300 year old Sufi Dargah

    The dargah gained in age from 50 to almost 400 in one week in the 21st century! Here’s two politicians (none from BJP) claiming it to be 100 and 386 in the same report! The age I guess depends on who you are asking. It might be interesting to check when the person whose remains it is supposed to house lived.

  33. Sharanya, it isn’t working for me either, so I put up a link to your main blog homepage for people to click on as an alternative.

    I don’t think it’s the traffic (SM is big, but it isn’t that big). You may want to try going into Blogger and do another edit/publish without changing anything to see if uploading it again fixes the problem.

  34. The way I see it. At least they’re chopping stone heads off of statues instead of real heads of human beings. But that days coming any time now.

  35. Amardeeep your reference to the demolition of the Dargah in reference to the destruction of the temple in Malaysia is well taken, but dont you think the denoument “India isnÂ’t immune to indifference to the concerns of religious minorities” is a bit far fetched. Infact is’nt it quite the contrary? Is’nt the common complaint that India is a little “too” sensitive to the sentiments of minorities. Why just a few days back we discussed why state after state was banning the code because – it hurts the sentiments of the people.

  36. Robin, there is at least some archeological evidence here, courtesy of the British. Admittedly, the site may not be 100% reliable — they are strongly critical of the government’s actions. But it’s the best (as in most detailed) information I’ve been able to find.

  37. Have republished it. It works. Thank you, Amardeep. My heart has been beating so fast the last half hour!

    Does it work for the rest of you?

    It’s past 4am here now. The technical glitch — or all our gods forbid, temporary blockage — was between midnight and now. Not being a techie myself I don’t know what happened.

    I have gotten a great deal of visitors with no referrals.. people must have figured out that something was up with the direct link and gone to the main instead. So, would appreciate if you could take down the new link you added – just in case I am under threat as a blogger. Wouldn’t want that down too. (Unless that makes no sense? It’s your call.)

    Thanks.

  38. Robin, on your second comment, there is a big difference between protecting freedom of speech (Da Vinci Code and so on) and physically destroying people’s cultural/religious heritage.

    I think it is possible to stand strong for freedom of speech at the state level (including the freedom to offend), while also standing against this kind of gratuitous destruction. If you read the accounts linked to above, it begins to seem clear that this site was targeted just to get at the minority and rile up communal sentiments. This is an act of aggression against a religious community by the state. The Da Vinci Code, the paintings of M.F. Husain, and the writings of Salman Rushdie, by contrast, are all the expressions of private individuals. People who may be offended can always choose not to go see the Da Vinci Code, see the painting, or buy the book.

  39. Amardeep, I am not debating the question of freedom of speech vs demolition of physical structures. I think your denoument “India isn’t immune to indifference to the concerns of religious minorities” is unfair. By and large India is very very sensitive to the concerns of its minority, even to the point of creating unfair and unequal laws and policies one may argue.

    The dargah in question is politically manipulated by both sides. I wish you and I could go into the national archives and check records for ourselves. If you ask me I dont think anyone has. Therefore, in such situation I would’nt easily take sides on its antiquity.

    Here’s an experience I’ve carried since I was in in say fourth-fifth grade. In the mid-seventies when we built our house in Hyderabad, there was a fear that an impending railway line might run across the neighborhood letting the government take the lands/houses and offering us pittance in return. Week after week all neighbors met, wrote petitions, took officials to tour the neighborhood, bribed, sulked, dharna’d to no avail. Finally a muslim gentleman offered the only solution that he claimed could never be questioned. We built a tombstone for Maula Fateh ali (I think) where we claimed he was buried and was the place he often sat (chabutra) when he was alive. Everyone knew there was nothing underneath.

    Anyway, the plans for the rail line changed, it passed several yards from the original and never intrduded the neighborhood anyway. However the Chabutra gained a reputation of its own. People made offerings, lit incense sticks, prayed and now thirty years later has an exhaustive legend that backs it.

    Most people who lived in the neighborhood have either died, moved away or built high-rises sold to an entirely new generation of people. The chabutra remains. This was clearly one example where development (rail line) was almost thwarted using a spurious religious space. Ironically, the news residents now enjoy the same rail connection. Last I saw them, they even wanted a station there. The station I was informed will be called Chabutra 🙂

  40. Sharanya, no one who has read your fiction or poems and also your non-fiction, like this, should ever doubt that there will be another Arundhati Roy.

    Yes, I have crossposted this comment on your site because it’s good to see you are are starting to get the attention you deserve in the world.

  41. Amardeep, I’d meant to point your attention to another blog (seemed like from Vadodara) where the blogger had made several investigations on the dargah. Seemed to have lost it now. In case I see it again, will make sure to post it. The point I was trying to emphasize still is: The Dargah or its antiquity is riddled in politics. I’d be careful in taking sides – just for fairness sakes 🙂

  42. I doubt the omission is because of bias; probably most reporters simply don’t know.

    The same way the “genocide” of Gujarat was “reported” by the media as 2000 muslims killed. Stupid morons repeat that as a Hadith of Koran or a commandment given to Abraham or a verse out of “Gita” where as the truth was that Post-Godhra toll: 254 Hindus, 790 Muslims .

    But does that matter?? Every one knows about this “genocide” as 2000 muslims killed by a Hindu mob. So that becomes the reality.

  43. This SpoorMal is a f@#king moron (I am not talking about SpoorLam, but this is similar technic as SpoorLam’s). SpoorMal is an idiot and a broken record. Now about comment #16 …. who the f$ck is this Wendy whatever??? Whats the relavance here. If this is the Wendy that worked in UT’s Public Affairs school, then whatever she has to say, is fine by me. As she was hot (almost a MILF) and someone that hot couldnt say anything wrong 🙂 ISI funding sepiamutiny ?? The writer/activist Arundhati Roy and Pakistan ?? WTF ???

    And please be kind enough and do not answer my questions .. they were rhetorical, it may be hard for comment #16 to understand .. May be there might be a Brittany connection to Pakistan and ISI and this blog and Gujarat too, I dont want to know. Mr SpoorMal (no connection to SpoorLam) should take his/her medications.

  44. Robin, I went to that blog post. The blogger first quotes Harsh Mander as follows:

    Further, there is evidence that this dargah is several hundred years old, and probably predates the city of Vadodara itself. Therefore, by no definition can it be described as an encroachment. If at all, it was the city that encroached on the shrine. There are records of a city survey undertaken in 1912 by the erstwhile Gaekwad ruler, copies of which we acquired that clearly show presence of the shrine. An Act of Parliament passed after the traumatic demolition of the Babri masjid in 1992 lays down that the status quo cannot be altered of religious structures that existed in 1947. This makes the officially sanctioned demolition not only communally motivated, but also in violation of the law of the land.

    No one seems to be disputing the 1912 marker. And no one is disputing the Parliamentary act that gives religious shrines built before 1947 “status quo” status. Instead, your blogger questions whether it is in fact a “religious” shrine at all:

    Offstumped Comment: The phrase “religious structure“ is very dubious. A tombstone technically is not a place of worship or a religious structure, even further this act of parliament itself is a violation of federalism, it should be upto local communities to decide what structures must exist and what must not, it should not be upto central bureaucracies sitting thousands of miles away to decide on this.

    On the question of whether it is a religious structure or a place of worship, here is the definition of a Dargah. It’s a no-brainer, and your blogger is just plain wrong. On the question of federalism, Parliament must have felt that protections are necessary when local governments are too caught up in religious fervor to do the right thing. Anyway, it is the law of the land.

  45. The reason I said in my first comment that these shrines impede progress is due to examples such as the one given by Robin in comment #39.

    I know of a Hindu temple in the Vadodara suburb which is right smack in the middle of a road. People say that it was built not too long ago and now the road has to go around it. I dont know if its true or not as we lived in Vadodara for a short time. But I think that such buildings must be demolished. (I hope the City took care of it this time around). But thats just my opinion. I am not a politician whose constituents are of different religious affiliation.

  46. MoorNam, You are being heartless and simply blaming the victims.

    As for being largely peaceful, most countries which allow state sanctioned persecution of religious and racial minorities are “peaceful” with no communal violence. This is why Pakistan or Saudi Arabia are “peaceful” (except when it is between Shias and Sunnis in Pakistan, and not even that in Saudi Arabia). The alternative for a minority in such countries is death or forced conversion. The strategy in Gujarat seems to try to replicate this situation, hence provocation like the dargah demolition. However, one difference that is to my mind crucial, is that these actions do not have legal sanction in India. Discrimination in countries like Malaysia on the other hand, is legally enforced. The state religion is Islam, and the civil law is Sharia, hence things like refusing hindus to cremate their dead and forcing burial instead, and now the destruction of temples.

    If one takes the view that Mr Singh as Prime Minister should not bother about what happens in Malaysia, or any other country for that matter, then his government has no business playing religious politics by issuing official condemnations against the cartoons in Denmark. At least those cartoons did not demolish religious places of worship or violate personal rights. They were far less materially important than events like this. The truth is that the official action was another case of minority politics for local consumption. Such an action implies a certain twisted communal logic-that muslims in India are concerned about the welfare of the “ummah” to the extent that their votes would be influenced by events outside-or that they have divided loyalties. If the official condemnation was based on a real concern for minority rights, then it is perfectly legitimate to expect that things like the temple demolitions in Malaysia would also receive such disapprobation. And it would be a lot more effective against Malaysia too, given that India has some influence in the region.

  47. I was in Malaysia last month for a week (Kuala Lumpur and Penang). Overall, the Malays, although religious, did not seem fanatical to me. Most of the women did wear the hijab, but there was a lot of socializing between men and women, you would see groups of teens of both genders hanging out in the malls together, even quite a few young dating couples. Alcohol is freely available, and they have the whole gamut of cable television channels, full unimpeded internet access, etc. Kuala Lumpur was a vibrant, dynamic city, full of modern buildings. There is a decent nightlife available. Probably the best mall I’ve ever seen, the KL Suria, is right at the base of the Petronas Towers (echoing Amardeep’s comment about the close historical connections between India and Malaysia, the mall’s name Suria is derived from Sanskrit ‘Surya” or ‘the sun’).

    HOWEVER…I talked to a LOT of Indians (mostly Tamils, some Sikhs), and a lot of Chinese (I think they are close to 20% of the population) and they all told me they faced tremendous discrimination. Malays refer to themselves as ‘Bumi Putra’ (also a Sanskrit derivative from Sanskrit ‘bhumi putra’, meaning ‘son of the soil’). Legislation favoring Bumi Putras has been made law in Malaysia. I don’t know all the details but this Bumi Putra legislation pervades most economic and educational spheres and confers many benefits to the Malays (and disadvantages to the Indians and Chinese). The Indians/Chinese have been in Malaysia for generations, see themselves as Malaysians, and most felt hurt and frustrated to be 2nd class citizens in their own land.

    Furthermore, as for rising religious fanatacism among the Malays, whether it is happening or not, it is strongly perceived to be happening by all the Indians and Chinese I talked to, and they are all quite nervous about it.

  48. This woman (girl?) is so brave it’s almost shocking. On her blogger profile, it says she was born in ’85 — 21 or 20 years old?? My family is in Singapore now, but we are back in Malaysia often enough to see what kind of guts it takes to write a letter like that. I’m very happy that the international blogs have taken on the plight of the Indian community now. These shrine demolitions are only the most visible aspect of many, many, many years of discrimination toward Indians. The Chinese are a minority too but the most financially sound. So they don’t get into trouble, at any rate never like this.