I woke up on Saturday morning, rolled out of bed and made a cuppa tea. “Terror plot near Toronto”, screamed my first email of the day and I almost choked on my chai masala (thanks, Abhi!). My blood pressure grew worse as I scoured the web for more and found only speculation, fabricated tie ins with Al Qaeda and fictitious “targets”. My five simple ‘W’s remained unanswered. Three days later a story has finally emerged in bits and pieces.
A report by the Toronto Star says the Canadian Security Intelligence Service began monitoring internet sites, which the suspects allegedly used, and in 2004 brought the Royal Canadian Mounted Police in on the case to facilitate a criminal investigation. Toronto mayor David Miller was informed of the investigation this past winter due to growing concerns about the groupÂ’s activity. Upon learning of their plot to build a bomb using ammonium nitrate, investigators intercepted the delivery of three tons of fertilizer to certain group members in a massive sting operation. There have also been reports of a connection between the Toronto group and two U.S. citizens, one was indicted while the other was arrested on terror charges earlier this year.
Shortly after the operation, on Friday night, RCMP officers arrested 17 Canadian residents on terror-related charges in a raid on their homes. Many of these suspects are long-time Canadian residents, five of them are teens under 18 years of age while the oldest two in the group are 30 and 43 years of age.
Details of the suspects are being revealed slowly as trusty journos bang on doors and beat on windows to answer that one as-yet elusive ‘W’. Who?The suspects are, well, multicultural, and include Somali, Pakistani, Indian, Egyptian, and West Indian backgrounds. Three appear to be of South Asian background in profile reports to date.
The first is Saad Khalid:
The 19-year-old is said to be a business student at the University of Toronto’s’ Mississauga campus. Khalid, who moved to Canada from Pakistan when he was 8, told his parents he was attending a job fair in Toronto on the day police stormed his parents’ townhouse. [Link]
Khalid became friends with two of the other suspects, Fahim Ahmad and Zakaria Amara, in school:
As the four high school years passed, the three friends began to change. They became more serious, at times depressed, devout in their faith. Khalid created R.A.C., the “Religious Awareness Club,” where he’d preach Islam during lunch hours in the school’s drama room. But there were still glimpses of the goofiness for which they were known. In a 2005 video made by Khalid and other friends, he spoofed the stylized Bollywood films. Khalid donned a hijab for his role as a forlorn lover and in one scene is shown running in slow motion across a field with his arms outstretched. [Link]
In 2005, Mr. Khalid… left a serious message to his graduating class at Meadowvale Secondary School, a public school with a large Muslim population. He wrote “La ilaha illallah,” a creed that every person has to say to be considered a Muslim and means there is no one worthy of worship but Allah. “Do you really believe in it? You do? Then prove it … .” he added “Before us there were many … after us there will be none … we are the ones … Allahu Akbar.” [Link]
In 2005, Khalid, Amara, and Ahmed began associating with Quayyam Abdul Jamal, the alleged mastermind, at Al Rahman Islamic Centre in Missaussauga:
Jamal, the eldest member of the group now charged, has been a key fixture at the centre since 1999, working as a caretaker who had enough free time to go and open the doors for several daily prayer sessions. An immigrant from Karachi, Pakistan, Jamal is married to a Canadian woman who converted to Islam and has four sons. “(Jamal) was very popular among the children and young people” recalled one member who asked to remain anonymous. “He played basketball, went camping and went fishing with them. He would sit down and talk with them — he hung out with the youth crowd.” Although Jamal’s radical Wahhabist and anti-Western views alarmed some of the centre’s members, many of the older members never perceived him as a dangerous extremist. [Link]
Five of the suspects will incur charges relating to the bomb plot. It is being alleged that 20-year-old Zakaria Amara, father of an 8-month-old child, purchased the ammonium nitrate. Saad Khalid, Quayyam Abdul Jamal, Asad Ansari, and Shareef Abdelhaleem are also being counted among the five.
A third (presumably) South Asian suspect is 25-year-old Steven Vikash Chand:
Friends of Mr. Chand say he hasn’t always been the devout Muslim he is today. Born into a Hindu family, the Toronto native converted to Islam about four years ago. Mr. Chand regularly distributed material about Islam at local public schools, encouraging youths to accept God, Mr. Ally said. He would sometimes go with Jahmaal James, 23, another of the 17 terror suspects arrested on Friday. About six months ago, Mr. Chand moved in to a basement suite near his mosque. The homeowner, Mohamed Attique, said Mr. Chand was quiet and polite. His son, Mohsin Attique, 17, said he thought Mr. Chand’s conversion to Islam may have caused tension between him and his family. [Link]
The suspectsÂ’ profiles are varied and no details of a unifying link between all suspects have been released. Interaction between some of the 12 adults can be broken down into groups depending on where they prayed, family connections, or in the case of Mohammed Dirie and Yasin Abdi Mohamed, who they went to prison with. The plot is still unfolding as further arrests are expected. Reaction to the arrests by the suspectsÂ’ families, friends, and neighbours has, for a large part, been disbelief. On Sunday the International Muslims Organization of Toronto mosque was vandalized in what clearly appears to be a hate crime. Toronto muslims, especially those who reside in areas where the arrests were made, are fearing a backlash. The atmosphere is tense as people start readying their pointer fingers. Starting off the blame-slinging (in a very public way, his name is in every newspaper) we have Mr. Aly Hindy, Imam at the Salaheddin Islamic Centre:
“Are we now the enemy within? We completely reject that,” Mr. Hindy said, outside court. The imam said that because “Afghanistan is closed now,” CSIS and the RCMP are targeting young Canadian Muslims, just so that departments can justify their budgets. “This is to keep George W. Bush happy, that’s all,” he scoffed. Mr. Hindy said he knew about half of the defendants, mostly from the times when they used to pray at his mosque. He conceded there might be one or two troublemakers in the group, but predicted most of the accused would be acquitted. More worrisome, the imam said, was the direction Canada is headed. Devout Muslims, he said, are at the moment more free to practise religion in Canada than in states like Egypt that crack down on fundamentalists. Mr. Hindy is afraid authorities here will round up people indiscriminately. [Link]
The sheer amount of international coverage given to this story makes one wonder if a fair trial can really be possible. Many questions surround the actual sting operation used to tie suspects to the bomb plot. But seeing as Hindy has been personally linked to at least two of the suspects, I canÂ’t wrap my head around why he would choose this particular time to launch an unfounded attack on CSIS or the RCMP. Now would be a good time to at least pretend to respect the arms of Canadian justice. Legal aims cannot be justified using illegal means. That goes for both sides of this fence we find ourselves teetering on.
Story = Developing…
+++ UPDATE +++
The CBC is reporting that Steven Chand’s lawyer, Gary Batasar, has made a statement regarding allegations against his client:
Batasar said he was given an eight-page synopsis of the allegations, including storming Parliament, blowing up some of the buildings and taking politicians hostage to demand the withdrawal of Canadian troops in Afghanistan. If the demands were not met, it is alleged, the hostages would be beheaded. The documents allege that Chand, 25, personally wanted to behead Prime Minister Stephen Harper.
Yikes!
Sounds like the situation in London where Muslims born and raised in England tune into a hateful ideology and seek to kill innocents.
Because it’s in the nature of those of the Islamist persuasion (not ‘Islam’ – note I use the term Islamist to denote this ideology) to see conspiracy and persecution everywhere. They are in a profound state of denial. Same reaction amongst some Muslims in the UK to the terrorism emanating from amongst some British Muslims.
Yes indeed. But the sides are not equal. One side might over ride judicial process resulting in wrongful imprisonment. The other side will put bombs on trains and kill hundreds of innocents women, children and men in downtown Toronto or London or New York.
Whilst it is vital to follow the letter of the law in pursuit of terrorists and their facilitators, it is also good to not play the game of relativism.
Red Snapper – There some parts of the overall reaction by many in the Muslim community that I think are specific to Canada. The only other terrorist threat to ever reach the point of detonation in Canadian history was the bombing of Air India flight 182. That case was COMPLETELY bungled by CSIS and the RCMP due to in-fighting and petty rivalry leading to two aquittals last year. Many Canadian immigrants (all generations) are still smarting from that trial and are not completely trusting of these agencies. The sides are very equal in this case, as far as past sins are concerned.
My only concern is for a fair and transparent trial, we don’t want another Air India.
I believe they already have that tactic in their ideology…here is an ongoing example…
I don’t think you have to advise Mr Hindy on subterfuge tactics… He has already read the book on the subject.
Couple of things interest me about this. The first is the timing of the sting and the second is the fact that details are being released VERY slowly. The “3-tons of fertilizer” detail is all over the news, but very little is being said about the individuals and/or their connections.
Interesting to see how the issue plays out socially now.
In related news, there have been two acts of vanadlism on an Islamic Center in Calgary in one week! Story linked here
I have to disagree with you here. The bungling and ineptitude of the Canadian authorities over Air India is essentially a sin of omission. The other side carry out the actual acts of violence; sins of commission(accepting that there are active cells seeking to detonate on Canadian soil)
Whilst bureaucratic bungling and ineptitude by state agencies are to be minded, they are not equivalent to the actual crimes being plotted. If you notice, Hindy is not referring to the competence of the Canadian authorities; he is actually saying that the Canadian state is engaged in a conspiracy at the behest of George W Bush to incriminate the suspects and terrorise Muslims. Rather than take a good honest look at how the Jihadi ideology may have taken root on Canadian soil, he castigates on the basis of conspiracy, paranoia and persecution complex.
It is vital that agencies tread carefully and follow the letter of the law. But that is not what Hindy is getting at. And whilst there should be no compromise on judicial process, I do not believe that there are two ‘sins’ of equally potential magnitude here.
I guess this is another case of Canada great multiculturalism policy, which tells newcomers they can keep there old culture and have no need to asslimate into western values. The media coverage of the american media the last 4 days has been bashing Canada immigration and multiculturalism policy. Maybe this will be a wake up call to Canada, they need just to look at Europe to see how great multiculturalism.
Canadian troops were not in Iraq, and this would seem to undermine the argument that these kinds of atrocities are carried out as an explicable reaction to world events, as many people tried to say when rationalising the London and Madrid massacres. It is to do with a specific ideology that is resilient and seemingly growing. Other terrorist groups operated on the basis of specific ethnic conflicts – Irish Republican Army, Tamil Tigers, Babbar Khalsa, Basque Separatists.
This however is a global ideology that sees conspiracy everywhere and convinces (brainwashes?) individuals to regard the world as inherently hostile to them; and hence men born in England can become human bombs and die for the sake of killing in an utterly nihilistic ideology of hate.
That it exists as a parasite upon the body of peace loving Muslims in western societies adds to the tragedy.
The potential for backlash is a secondary horror that awaits all South Asian people (Muslim, Hindu, Sikh) living in Canada, America and England as a result of this kind of cancerous hatred and ideology. Racist violence, stereotyping, insecurity, castigation – all of these things will increase and be our future if this activity carries on.
It is important to get a fix and be clear sighted about this. People like Hindy are obfuscators; either they are complicit or they are genuinely blind and in a state of psychological denial so profound they have almost lost their senses.
I feel strongly that whilst holding state agencies to rigourous account, we should not engage in moral equivalence or pander to the paranoias and denial that some individuals perform on this issue.
i think the thrust of red snapper’s comment is right on. local contingencies are convenient until you see cross-national trends crop up. though i am skeptical of canada’s ass-freezing multiculturalism, the problem is more to do with muslim immigrants (note the presence of a convert, these are overrepresented in these cells).
I don’t see your point!
Well put! I have to wonder how far the “alienation” of these youth originate in their closed ideological environment, even given the fact of prejudice in the larger social environment.
There have been terrorist cells broken up inside America. What was the cause of their existence?
Whilst soft sighted multiculturalists may be part of the problem in gaining a stark and honest look at the activities of extremist individuals, your designation is simplistic and does not help. Canada bashing by American news networks should not be the barometer for this discussion – given America’s history of being a haven for Irish terrorists and the continuing discovery of terrorism cells in American cities, a more subtle and nuanced approach is needed to appreciate the fine points, rather than triumphalist chest beating about why Candada is a limp wristed society of pinko commie multiculturalists ad nauseum.
Canada does need to take a look at itself, as does the UK, and address the realities of the challenges that nihilistic Islamism poses. But America needs profound introspection too, and jeering comments like the above do nothing to advance the conversation.
Mr. Hindy’s conspiracy theories reminded me of Daniel Jonah Goldhagen’s important work on fanaticism of the Nazi type, “Hitler’s Willing Executioners, Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust” where he shows that most individuals who actively participated in the genocide were not fanatical Nazis or members of the SS, but rather ordinary Germans. And just as importantly, he showed how the Nazi’s benefited from a pre-existing anti-Semitic and (due to wwI) humiliated culture with an exaggerated sense of their own powerlessness and victimization.
This is a common theme of all hate groups. Think of the KKK in the USA, which did not emerge from a vacuum but rather from a profoundly racist society, the American South. It is also no coincidence that the KKK started after the end of the American Civil War, so like the Germans, southerners felt humiliated and, especially in the case of working class whites, powerless and victimized.
I can’t tell you how many ordinary Muslims have expressed such strange beliefs to me such as: “Israel is responsible for 911.” This is denial. Germany and America have had to confront their own totalitarian mind set and have made great strides in eliminating these extremist groups. At the end of the day, the only solution to Islamic fascism is for the Muslim community as a whole to stop being so defensive and sensitive, and to start confronting the fanaticism within.
I can’t wait for the cluess “White Liberals” to start defending these guys. You know will be some saying that these guys are being set up by Canada govenment to gain points with the White House.
I get the feeling that some people see Canada’s multiculturalism as based upon hippy-dippy “liberal” sentiments. Multiculturalism in Canada is quite distinct from it’s European incarnation, because it is based on the historical awareness that three distinct cultural groups founded the country and waves of several more contributed towards building the country westward. To be sure, this is an awareness that has only come relatively recently (Trudeau in the 60s and identity politics in the 90s), but it has been a necessary step in the country’s coming to terms with past mistakes and current unity issues.
No, but they are in Afghanistan, so this may provide an excuse to the wannabe terrorists concerned.
It always amuses me when the right-wing racists come out and knock multiculturalism or non-european immigration whenever there is an Islamic terrorist attack. How many Chinese, Philipino, Indian terrorist plots have there been in these host nations? Also, I nice try using a Punjabi name there, Suki Dillon? Never seen that spelling before, I think you were looking for, Sukhi Dhillon
The reinforcing of a totalising world view becomes an echo chamber in which the disgruntlment of youth or the converts zeal becomes a rage against a modern world of secularism, female emancipation, a world of science and ambiguity, that demands individual moral agency in order to survive. Source the ideology from a hyper-puritanical school, believe that the world exists in order to destroy you as an individual, hitch every single cut of the Ummah to you personally, all under the umbrella of the Zionist conspiracy, and you have a recipe that can make a man in Leeds, England, or Missassuaga, Canada, see the need to kill human beings who represent to him the excrement of the modern world. The dissemination of this belief system is contagious. It is a parasite on generalised discontent over political issues. Like a flesh eating bacteria, it damages the overwhelming percentage of honest, peaceful Muslims living in the society from which they emerge.
When I said that South Asians of all backgrounds in the West have to come to grips with this, I was being serious. Whether Muslim, Hindu, or Sikh, the secondary horror for us will be that our lives will be marked by fear, apprehension, and the rain clouds of racist violence and prejudice if this ideology continues to act itself out in terrorist massacre consistently. I think we should be at the forefront of at least speaking clearly on this and not allow the Hindy’s of the world to obfuscate and deny with double speak. How long will this go on for? Do you see it burning itself out? I cannot answer that. I do not want my children to grow up as British citizens with this cloud hanging over them. Already we can feel the heat of the Right who include general hostility to all Asians as part of the package of auditing what is wrong with some individuals and groups within the Muslim community. We owe it to all that is good and moral to not engage in obfuscation or moral equivalence, and to refute them when they proffer their conspiracies, paranoia and denial.
Indeed. Another example would be the state of denial and complicity in acts of genocide perpetrated by extremist Hindu groups in Gujarat for example. It is a universal attribute wherever extremism rears its ugly and sulphurous head.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I haven’t read anyone, including Suki Dylan, knock “non-european immigration”. Your attempt to paint him as a right wing racist is just a way of avoiding the issues he brings up. How would you like to be called a “left wing commie?”
And there is certainly nothing racist about attacking multiculturalism, after all, at the end of the day, multiculturalism is a western philosophy, which finds its foundation in the great long tradition of western relativism–starting with Martin Heidegger and then onto Marx, Marcuse, Freud etc.
Indeed. And whilst I don’t think we should divert the topic from the one in hand, it is something that Hindus and Sikhs need to deal with inside themselves too. Maybe to a lesser extent. But neccessary all the same.
These idiots like Aly Hindy live in Canada, yet they have nothing but hatred for the west. Why do these people live here, other then to spread there views. The sad thing is that other brown skinned people are gonna suffer for his beliefs.
Well PunjabiJatt my name is Suki Dillon cause I sold out, does that make you happy. You asked about any indian terriost plots in the host nation, I guess you forget about the Babbar Khalsa boys and there khalistan movement with the air india bombing
Red Snapper – I hear you. My comment was not an argument for Hindy-types. I just think Canadian-Muslim public opinion regarding this case has a strong chance of being informed by previous terror trials in Canada. And fundies don’t exactly make up a large portion of the Canadian-Muslim population.
And thanks, for putting it so nicely for dear Suki.
That is true – but there are lots of racists and bigots who attack multiculturalism as a proxy for their racism. It is simple really. No multiculturalist believes it is OK to carry out acts of nihilistic mass murder. So whilst honest criticism needs to take place, identify the source of the ideology and put the blame there. In this case the source is the Islamist echo chamber. After all, multiculturalism does not explain the KKK, the Skinheads in England, or the Hindu extremists in Gujarat, does it? Because they are fascists from the majority community. So where does the anti multicultural critique lead us in those instances?
Lets refute the conspiracy and denial – and make sure we recognise the real source of the creed.
Well PunjabiJatt my name is Suki Dillon cause I sold out, does that make you happy. You asked about any indian terriost plots in the host nation, I guess you forget about the Babbar Khalsa boys and there khalistan movement with the air india bombing
Well, at least you’re honest about your selling out 😉 The Khalistani movement is pretty much dead, and I credit the Indian government with being much more inclusive with respect to the Sikh community, and firm with those extremist elements within it.
I guess this is another case of Canada great multiculturalism policy, which tells newcomers they can keep there old culture
Yea, Multiculturalism is a drag. Lets send back all the darkies to where they came from. Its nauseating to see them running around in their saris and shalwar kameezes speaking gibberish and smelling up the whole place.
And this is exactly why it is vital for us to speak out. Whether you like it or not, bigots will do all they can to implicate all Asian people in some way, even peripherally, in the comet-tail of these atrocities. See above. It is why we should all be crystal clear in identifying what is going on here, what the true dynamics are, and not allow the obfuscators (whether Islamist sypathisers or misguided people on the Left) to give purchase to their consiracies and denials.
Badmash
I completely agree. I have so many questions and nothing seems to be answering them. What does “controlling the sale and transport” of fertilizer imply? Did the RCMP approach the group or vice versa? Where do the 12 others who have no bomb charges come into play? I hope CSIS’s involvement doesn’t mean the fact flow is going to be strangled. Also, what’s going to happen to the Anti-terrorist Act that is currently under review? I could go on for paragraphs…
Neha & Badmash:
What’s so intersting about the timing of the sting?
Its nauseating to see them running around in their saris and shalwar kameezes speaking gibberish and smelling up the whole place.
well, you might sarcastic, but you aren’t off. if americans ran around the middle east in bikinis it would make locals irritated.
who do majorities get fascist? multiculturalism can engender resentment.
Yeah. Those dot bashers in New Jersey had a point. I really see where they were coming from when they terrorised families and children and women in bindi and saris. Those red dots were a provocation to fascism and oppressed the majority.
Anyone commenting on how bad multiculturalism is for Canada actually visited the country? Or Toronto? The vast majority of the ethnic enclaves in the city are far from insular.
who do majorities get fascist?
What?
Multiculturalism can engender resentment.
No doubt; And this reflects poorly on those who can’t deal with people who aren’t like themselves. The problem isn’t with multiculturalism, it’s with narrow minded people.
Does anybody else find it funny that white countries[Europe, Australia, Canada, US] are called racist for not wanting certain immgirants, yet non-white countries have immigration policy that alot worse and nobody said anything.
Look at what happing in my grandparents homeland of the punjab. A decade ago sikh’s made up 65% of the population but now its down to 59%. Newcomers like Dalits and Bhaiyas from other parts of india are comming for jobs. And the worst part is that these people are not learing punjabi culture or the language. This in not good for future of punjab is what I have heard punjabi’s say. Now that’s funny
“When unskilled workers come to Japan they bring their famlies with them. The number is bound to increase.They create slums and boost the population of uneducated people. These are the problems European Countries are facing, that’s why were so cautious.” -Jinen Nagase member of the Liberal Democrat Party
Since my parents were immigrants I’m not anti-immigration, but there has to be policy of not letting in people who don’t want to accept western values.
Manju – not meaning to say that there were political motivations for this operation. No, what I meant by that was how this adds to the mix – Tory government bent on looking tough but fair, President’s figures down south going south etc etc.
Manju, personally my interest is tied to the fact that there have been no details given as yet of date, time, or place of attack. The RCMP has divulged that the suspects were working on a timeline so they know these details but for some reason are only saying that they needed to “move quickly”.
When the first reports of the arrests came out over the weekend there was no mention of a sting operation, it was reported as a bomb plot bust made by the RCMP and CSIS. Then on Sunday, the Star was the first Canadain newspaper to report the RCMP’s hand in delivering the fertilizer. They based this information on “sources”.
Now, as of today’s and yesterday’s reports, only 5 of the 12 accused adults are being tried with regard to the bomb plot specifically. Like Badmash said, they’re releasing details mighty slowly. I find it strange, this being the biggest terrorist plot to attack on Canuck soil.
Does anybody else find it funny that white countries[Europe, Australia, Canada, US] are called racist for not wanting certain immgirants, yet non-white countries have immigration policy that alot worse and nobody said anything.
non-whites are savages. also, non-white cultures are precious and exotic and shit.
also, whites are the evil ice people, spice does them some good.
Suki – Punjab is a state, not a country. People are free to move about in India..and settle in whichever state they like. State governments don’t make policies on who to allow/disallow.
and what Badmash just said is a wicked point 🙂
Does anyone else find it funny that a self-loathing, self-proclaimed sell-out, like Suki Dillon makes a fuss about nonsensical points? If it werent for progressive segments of Canadian society that allowed your grandparents to immigrate here you would be in their beloved homeland, Punjab.
Yes I know that Punjab is a state, but its I think the only state in India that isn’t majority Hindu or Muslim. It’s alot like what Quebec is to Canada. But if you talk to Average Joe Punjab you will hear them talk about the problems of non punjabi newcomers to Punjab.
I’m not a multiculturaist, but I find myself disagreeing w/ most of the critics of MCism on this thread. The issue is not food or dress, and those natives who resent different cultures should be the ones held responsible, not the immigrants.
The problem w/ MCism is that it enables extremism by providing philosophical cover for anti-liberalism of the islamic type. Because all values are relative, radical islam has as much authority as classic liberalism, both are just products of a particular culture and neither has any claim to a universal truth. This is also mated w/ a leftist (chomsky-like) social determinism which traces all islamic terror back to the “sins” of the West.
Furthermore, the ghettoization and insulation of many Muslims (especially in europe) is a real problem, as it breeds radicalism and hate. This goes beyond food and dress and the Multiculturalists really do us a disservice by encouraging such behavior and justifying it with the idea that asking immigrants to accept liberal values is somehow racist. “we are forcing our values on them”
This is analogous to the dangerous black power movement which has supplanted the older civil rights one. They demand black identity, not universl rights. They insist on repect for blacks as blacks, not as human beings simply. This is where multiculturalism goes wrong and enables racism.
Razib the Atheist – You are SO evil!
The issue is not food or dress
food & dress are social markers. food taboos prevent people from eating together. don’t discount the implicit problems associated with outward markers separating groups.
also, re: quebec, just read a book which implies that quebecois are artificially created in that they assimilated many immigrant groups to their own culture. just like the afrikaners absorbed many germans and hugenots to a dutch identity.
evil = live backwards 🙂
Well punjabijatt my mothers parents immigrated to the US and my father parents never immigrated to Canada. Yes my parents came to Canada, but my parents accepted they lived in Canada and asslimated into western culture.
But to many other immigrants take advantage of Canada liberal policy’s and some end up like these 17 men or the khalistan air india bombers.
But to many other immigrants take advantage of Canada liberal policy’s and some end up like these 17 men or the khalistan air india bombers.
there is a difference between immigrants and muslim immigrants 🙂
Manju – (respectfully) isn’t that a bit of a misrepresentation. I’m not sure that the sort of cultural relativism you’re speaking of is at home in a liberal framework. In fact philosophical liberalism has some very clearly defined axioms. This is apparant in even concrete examples – just take the recent example of how the Sharia courts issue in Ontario played out.
‘Yes my parents came to Canada, but my parents accepted they lived in Canada and asslimated into western culture. But to many other immigrants take advantage of Canada liberal policy’s and some end up like these 17 men or the khalistan air india bombers’.
Terrorism is not a Sikh, Indian or Muslim value. You are conflating a lack of western values to terrorism as if eschewing terrorism is in the sole domain of western values.
Manju makes a sustained case in post # 42. It should be possible to counter some of those points with an understanding of how exactly the philosophical cover is provided for certain atavistic attitudes – in terms of institutions, policies etc, and examine whether these can be adjusted or if a root and branch denial of said policies would be neccessary. I don’t agree with her all the way, but she gives food for thought and she at least constructs an argument.
What Suki Dillon is saying on the other hand, I’m not sure.