For my 16th birthday, we had a sheet cake from Sam’s Club, and maybe a couple of balloons. It was small with just family, and a few of my school friends. It wasn’t elaborate, but in those days, we didn’t have MTV to show us how ‘the others’ celebrate their Sweet 16. Maybe that’s why I have a sick, sick obsession with watching MTV’s reality TV show Sweet 16, where in the span of a half an hour segment you see thousands and thousands of dollars being thrown down for a measly birthday. From the SM news tab, we’ve now learned desi teen girls haven’t missed the wrath of this reality TV show either.
…Dr. Srinivasa Rao Kothapalli, a prominent cardiologist in Beaumont, Tex., is more than willing to relinquish his checkbook. His daughter Priya turned 16 earlier this month, and she is in the throes of planning a joint birthday-graduation party with her elder sister, Divya, 18. “If you can afford to have a grand celebration, then why not,” said Dr. Kothapalli, who immigrated to the United States from India in the mid-1980’s. “It’s the American way. You work hard and you play hard.”Their Bollywood-themed party for 500 guests will be held in the family’s backyard — all 4Å“ acres, behind the 10,000-square-foot house. The Format, their favorite band, will perform. And they will make their grand entrance on litters, during an elaborate procession led by elephants…”We both want to lose three pounds,” said Priya, who received a Mercedes convertible and an assortment of diamond jewelry for her birthday. Her sister’s graduation gift package included a Bentley, diamonds and two homes in India. [link]
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p>Can you believe this ridiculous consumption? Elephants, diamonds, Bentleys and homes? If this is what they got for their Sweet 16/18, can you imagine the weddings? I can’t wait till the show airs, which unfortunately, has no links up yet on MTV-but I’m sure the mutineers will keep us posted. So let’s see, there were first those two desi girls that secretly partied, Kaavya gets half a million to write a ‘plagiarized’ book before turning 17, and now, we have these girls. Sigh. Such a contrast from the girls, girls, girls earlier this month.
Priya added, “It’s pathetic when people suck up.” Still, dealing with sycophantic classmates and a bit of teasing is a small price to pay for the spotlight. “We both love attention–that’s one of our main motives for having the party,” Divya said. “The more attention the better.” [link]
At least I have something in common with the girls from Sweet 16…I’m kidding. KIDDING. 
more salacious info on the bonobo
I also remember reading about baboons who offer fruit or the new ananas blahnik and while the female is checking out the goodies he gets on and has his way.
this thread just got interesting
DQ, you live in Montreal, right? If so, I can kind of understand what you are saying – both women and men there are not afraid to let you know they appreciate your looks. It’s done a little more politely in Montreal, at least from my experience – it feels like an entirely different culture. And everyone’s so damn beautiful there!!
But where I live, it feels like dirty dirty power-tripping harassment. Yucky. To echo brownfrown “I feel encroached upon, helpless and angry at my vunerability.” Exactly.
Brownfrown, you’re a strong, confident chick – I don’t buy for a second that some guy saying ‘hey, baby’ to you on the street would turn you into a puddle of vulnerability.
i’m with brownfrown on this. i’m a sciencegirl too but the “sciencey” explanations about “natural” behavior for animals and trying to extrapolate to humans as-is never did it for me. we have a huge amount of frontal cortex, unlike other animals. isn’t that at least part of the reason why we’re so different? that frontal cortex is supposed to modulate your behavior…so even if you have some subconcious “instinct” to get a woman’s attention…the rest of your brain is supposed to tell you that catcalling and grabbing and rape is innappropriate response because women don’t like that. it’s not about being pc or not, but i think knowing and not knowing about societal norms and respecting others IS natural human behavior
er, i worded that wrong. i meant “knowing societal norms and respecting others IS natural human behavior”
Taz, you’re completely valid here. It’s pretty well known that sexual violence run a spectrum and on one end are cat calls, dirty jokes etc, and on the other end is sexual assault. IMO when we tacitly allow the seemingly harmless stuff to continue we’re contributing to a more dangerous environment where perpetrators feel like they can push the envelope and get away with it.
It is nice to receive compliments but when they’re from strange men on the streets while you’re tending to your own business they’re threatening. You don’t know what might happen next.
DQ,
I can’t believe you just negated how brownfrown feels because you think a ‘strong brown chick’ isn’t allowed to feel vulnerable to being harrassed- What makes her a strong brown chick is the fact that she is able to SHARE her feelings on what it means to her to be harrassed on a very public space.
I really think the level of street harrassment depends on what city you live in (it’s much worse on East coast then west – never been to Canada, but sounds like it’s nicer) the time of day (much scarier when walkign alone at night by allyways), whatever. Hate to be catty, but if your friend is upset that construction workers aren’t cat calling her than she has some pretty sincere self-esteem issues.
I’m with you, DQ, as a woman I do love compliments- and it’s even more special when it’s from another female. But, when I’m looking like shit covered in scarves head to toe, and someone is saying “hey sexy” – I know it’s not cuz i’m looking sexy but because of power issues.
Haha DQ, seriously – I don’t know if I’m comfortable with this puddle of vunerability stuff 😛 BUT just to qualify, there is a difference between street harassment and one of those fun, kind of sweet interactions where someone who happens to be a stranger, on the street. Usually the difference is one of tact and charm. That’s fun. Hollering or one of those under the breath “whatuuuuppppppppp” from someone leaned up against a building? Not thanks. Same goes for staring, grabbing, following.
And if there is a double standard along gender lines here, echoing Taz – women leaning out of the window yelling “cute butt! ahahahhahahaa” as they drive by some guy is somehow not quite the same thing as a carful of guys driving alongside you at a crawl all making very appreciative noises in your direction as you try to get away as fast as you can. Maybe steet harassment IS an ape thing – female primates lean and hollar and move on, males lurk and grunt and creep females out.
Its coming on next wedensday. I just saw a comercial for it and it showed indian women going crazy for bodybuilders. Who the hell finds a body builders body attractive?
well i have something to add from a male perspective here. it is a vaguely related situation, but not the one you describe.
but you should realize that perceptions of beauty differ. for example, i know some women i have found really attractive would be just “really? she may be sweet/cute but no way sexy” for other women (in their words). now i really don’t want the woman i like thinking the same way as you, do i?
however i must also add that i have almost never been misunderstood like this, maybe i go for your type dq? 🙂
I think it will be realy embarrassing if they show Bollywood dancing on MTV, because any normal 3 year old could master the art of Bollywood twisting and pointing. As indians I think we should do everything in our power to hide how amateur bollywood really is.
Taz and company,
I wasn’t negating anyone’s experience or trying to disrespect anyone’s feelings. But I do think there is some disingenuousness in these types of conversations about what makes women tremble with fear, what women like etc. First off, I don’t buy that any straight woman prefers a compliment from a woman to a compliment from a (non-threatening) man. Gimme a break, we LOVE men, and we LOVE to hear what they love about us. We only LIKE women. Secondly, I like to think that women are not the clinging-vine-trembling-reed stereotypes invented in the Victorian era, which have seemingly yet to die. I just don’t like women talking as though every street held a trap, and every man were a potential rapist. It hobbles them. It reminds me of some women in India, who think they’ll get raped if they take a bus and go across town by themselves.
Anyway, you get my drift. Gotta go. Holler at ya later.
Hi. I think what I would want to say has already been said by others (props brownfrown, taz, Rupa, etc.), but I wanted to link to this website that might be relevant: HOLLA BACK NYC
of course, i didnt mean to imply other women wont find you sexy.
well i should shut up now.
Sparky: Word UP.
What’s the big deal? For my 16th birthday, I wanted a theme party with Mougli, kaa, tarzan, alladin, big pink balloons and a huge rasberry , strawberry, chocolatey ice cream cake. At least kids can afford to splurge on their saccharine fantasies and dad’s bank balances these days.
First off, I don’t buy that any straight woman prefers a compliment from a woman to a compliment from a (non-threatening) man
the generalizations are problematic. that’s why i don’t think these arguments are going to get anywhere, people have different perceptions of threat or comfort levels with types of verbal interactions. there is a lot of talk of feelings here…but feelings differ based on different input.
but feelings differ based on different input
by which i meant the same input with result in different perceptions by different people.
that’s why arbitrary etiquette or custom works, at least we all work out of the same playbook.
razib, have you found God??? Glory glory!
This reminds me of my little moment yesterday. I was at a Starbucks and while I am waiting for my iced green tea latte this hot indian woman is standing next to me and starts talking to me and I start to think to my self “Nishan you sly dog, this woman couldnt resist your startling good looks” As we leave the Starbucks at the same time she says “goodbye” and hops into a Black Bentley GT with her boyfriend in the drivers seat giving me the “Dont even try to compete with this” look. I couldnt help but walk away with a smile on my face and think “Another on bites the dust”
mebee she wants some fun on the side?
how do you know it was the boyfriend? maybe just friend? maybe ex?
hope springs eternal.
how do you know it was the boyfriend? maybe just friend? maybe ex?
exactly. you aren’t thinkin’ like a playa 🙂 if that is her bf, assume it will be her soon to be ex-bf 🙂
Maybe this is subjective. Sometimes men will hit on a women he doesn’t even find attractive b/c he thinks his chances are better. The randomness of the complimenting is what negates it’s effectiveness – It doesn’t mean anything. Yes, I do prefer compliments from women and that’s the honest truth. There’s nothing like hearing a compliment from a woman who has self-esteem enough to compliment you – it’s coming from a real place. I also want to echo what Neha said, it’s okay from male friends too, so long as it doesn’t cross the line.
I NEVER feel good when cat-called from across the street. It’s more about the dude in question, his issues with power, and has nothing to do with my perceived attractiveness.
Maybe this is subjective.
i think it is very objective, i think that it might be totally different from person to person based on their innate personality +&X social expectation +&X personal experience.
i’m assuming people here have friends with diff. personalities. no one needs to be fronting here.
for my 16th birthday, my parents decided to up their annual bday check from $20 to $25. I was super excited. nearly 10 years later, they upped it to $50. I’m still excited.
Way to put it all in an equation, razib! I’ll need a sample size n=30+ to test it out 😉
I donÂ’t know how this topic came along in the comments but something I always found unusually funny about street harassment is When a guy honks seeing a hot girl passing by…what the hell is that all about? And if this really is a way to WOO girls, then I completely missed that memo
I’ll need a sample size n=30+ to test it out 😉
the expectation is most people have around 100 “friends.” there’s going to be a skew because of selection. having friends of different cultures helps in making the variance not mysterious. and FYI, my gf has lived in both italy & finland. she’s a shy person and admits to feeling more comfortable in finland…but she had to work to get out of her comfort zone in italy more so in a way she appreciates that (though she’s not a big fan of italian men, thank god).
PMG-
That link ROCKS! You always add another element on the comments that up your crushworthy mutineerness.
Razib-
You forgot to include that there is a high correlation between harrassment and sexual violence- let’s see, that would make the fear causal based on this correlation right? doesn’t that get added into the equation, somehow?
You forgot to include that there is a high correlation between harrassment and sexual violence
i don’t know the numbers here, can you enlighten me? (eg., a r-squared)
also, taz, before i know the numbers, i can offer that the conditional probabilities are context based. in other words, if you had a guy being aggressive and priggish in finland, chances are something is really fucked up, and you better be scared. if the same happened in italy…well, no offense, but that’s being an italian man. this is part of the problem that occurs when people change cultures, they don’t know the cues for deviance.
for my 16th birthday, my parents decided to up their annual bday check from $20 to $25. I was super excited. nearly 10 years later, they upped it to $50. I’m still excited.
I’m jealous that you got checks instead of clothing. And maybe that you’re still 25, though i’m not sure. My age (a little older) is kind of cool too.
the overall point being, people differ, cultures differ. until we normalize for this i don’t think some of the exchanges are really doing much more than talking past each other. person X might have reason to be scared by behavior Y while person Z might not, etc., because of cultural differences.
Sounds exactly like the spoilt kids who are running amuck down here in orange county, where kids get Bmws before they even have their permit. I think it’s fine to give your kids stuff since you have worked so hard, but you gotta let them know about hard work and sacrifice. They gotta be grateful for that crap. I even heard of a girl ripping the owners manual of her brand new 3 series in half and chucking it at her dad cause it wasn’t the more powerufl model.
dude, I know no numbers. my comprehension of stats is limited (with a high dosage of forgeting)… I wonder what numbers are out there though, that could better analyize this and how, is all, and i figured the Razib all knowing in anything statistical could shed better light…
I don’t think it’s fair that these two sisters had to share a party. While it is easier to just plan a grand celebration it’d be nice to see the teen angst that comes with a sweet 16 by itself. I’m totally watching this episode for desi pride. At least they’re saving money by having it in their backyard. I am glad that they aren’t whitewashed and actually got a Bollywood theme going.
Bongbreaker,
I was hardly calling your credibility into question nor do I think you’re misogynist etc etc. However, I do think there is a certain level of naiivete underlying your implication that the impulse to appreciate is just a matter of choice. The hackneyed question I asked was merely to point out, in my rather crude, inarticulate way the sort of obvious power structure underlying the behaviour you’re quick to assume is natural. Men’s legs or their toes or whatever else might not interest you but as a woman, they don’t interest me either. I’m not trying to speak for all women here but there are very few women I personally know who think about these things either and that’s exactly the problem. We’ve been raised to function, and as have you as your comments exemplify, with the male gaze as a reality. While you might not have to worry about what your toes look like, we do.
That’s irrelevant, as is my ability or not to comment when it is the case. I’m trying to ask why is it that my eyes don’t even go there whereas I’m quite quick to look at woman’s body and pick out all the things that don’t measure up to the bizarre aesthetic standards we’re bombarded by.
jeet,
I completely agree! Am I supposed to swoon and then chase the car down the street to give him my number? It seems completely ridiculous.
For the record Dharma Queen, in certain situations I do actually prefer the compliments of women. Sometimes (though this is totally my own bias coming into play, I admit) they seem more sincere because they don’t come with the “is he only trying to get with me?” paranoia that male compliments have. Additionally, as a straight female, I can think of plenty of women that i LOVE — not just like — just as much as I love men.
Ships at a distance have every man’s wish on board. For some they come in with the tide. For others they sail forever on the horizon, never out of sight, never landing, until the Watcher turns his eyes away in resignation, his dreams mocked to death by Time. That is the life of men.
Now, women forget all those things they don’t want to remember, and remember everything they don’t want to forget. The dream is the truth. They then act and do things accordingly.
— Zora Neale Hurston, Their Eyes Were Watching God
That’s irrelevant, as is my ability or not to comment when it is the case. I’m trying to ask why is it that my eyes don’t even go there whereas I’m quite quick to look at woman’s body and pick out all the things that don’t measure up to the bizarre aesthetic standards we’re bombarded by.
ok, well, this was alluded to before, but some of us would want there to be some acknowledgement that there are innate average biase differences between males and females. a simple one being that males are more visual, in all cultures. this doesn’t mean that dudes hollaring out the window is biological, there are plenty of cultures and subcultures where this is not acceptable. it isn’t acceptable (frankly, conceivable) in my own social circles, and i’ve never thought to engage in it, but i’m just as visual as those dudes and i like to look, and it isn’t about “power.” this is an average difference, some females are visual and some males are not so visual, but this doesn’t seem to be a thing where the mean of the two distributions is very close, it seems men and women have a hard time making each other understood in part because they live in different cognitive worlds. and speaking of power, some have posited that the hooting & hollaring is in part an acting out of low SES males against higher SES females who they have “no shot” with, and so they are lashing out and being obnoxious to spite their social betters.
going back to confusions, i will point to another instance of “cultural confusion.” when i grew up in the intermontane west getting into a physical fight wasn’t too big of a deal. when someone threatened to kick my ass i was ready to start throwing punches immediately, since being smaller than the other individual usually i needed to get the high ground of advantage unless i wanted to be ground down really quickly. when i went to college i had problems because i didn’t understand that in other american subcultures “fighting words” is all bluster and doesn’t have to do with fighting at all. i nearly the beat the crap out of two guys my freshmen year in part because i didn’t understand that the dudes didn’t really want to get into a fight, they were just “posing.” later i figured it out and rescaled my “threat assessment” detector.
a much more complex dynamic is at work when men hassle women on the street. this sound ludicruous, but consider:
1) there is intrinsic variation in personality. i know people who were are introverted and shy of public attention, and i know people who couldn’t live without such attention.
2) there is instrinsic variation in acceptable comportment between cultures. as an example, i was told about an italian man who had moved to finland because that was where his wife was from. he had a hard time acculturating, he was an instructor at a university and at first all his female students thought he was sexually harrassing them because he was so friendly and chit-chatty. he had to change his behavior toward an “unnatural” (for him) state just to “fit in” in finland so as not to give people the “wrong signals.”
3) there is variation in personal experience. my example above illustrates the issue, as taz was pointing out there might be a history of correlations which trigger conditioned responses. the problem is that when your environment changes those responses might be improper. i will give an explicit example that is more apropos to the thread (as it has moved). i had an ex-gf who was flirting with a man who she was working with in ecuador. they were on a field trip (she was doing field work) and he became very aggressive very quickly and made her uncomfortable. i was pretty shocked and angry when she told me this (this happened before we got together), but, she told me that though it was traumatic for her, after living in the country for a while after the incident she understood that her “signals” were really inviting trouble. i was skeptical until i had a close friend who told me basically the same thing. one might say that one shouldn’t have to worry about “signals,” but the problem is that that’s easy to say, but when you have to live in a country day to day you better know the issues (this obviously applies to non-sexual things).
when we consider these topics, and note that the USofA is a complexity of cultures, classes and of course personalities, we shouldn’t be surprised that “confusions” occur. ultimately a set of arbitrary cultural standards would make sense, something like a “finnish national character” or an “italian national character.” it seems to me that the USA is in the middle, with a lot of variation, so we have more issues than normal around this topic. overall, i think we are going down the wrong path when we generalize personal responses to the rest of society, because there is just too much diversity to really capture everything that is going on.
Hmmm makes me wonder what is the need for such things… Very materialistic, I think there is much better things to do then spend it on elephants diamonds and terribly expensive cars…
Rather then buying two homes in India they could have helped a whole village with better resources much more sensible and satisfying…
But then again, who am I to judge?
razib:
Perhaps what you wrote was not what you were trying to convey then?
It’s highly amusing that while you berate people for using subjective qualities to make generalisations, you do the same thing yourself. What people enjoy is thoroughly subjective.
Spending 200K on a party? Spending 200K on painting? Spending 200K travelling? On one level, it’s just lavishness (for the majority). But on another level it is just how an individual would prefer to spend their money. It’s obvious that this family can afford 200K and that 200K for this family has less value than 200K for most of us.
I’m with Al Mujahid on this, if they can afford it, let them spend what they want. I’d be more concerned with their attitude and the way they treat people (“servant’s” shouldn’t smile?) – now THAT is a major yuck.
(btw, there’s no comparison to Marie Antoinette in this case. Marie was using the taxes paid by the poor to fund her relishes. This guy is spending his EARNED money. It’s capitalism pure and simple)
How do you know that they DIDN’T do that?
I am sure they would have PRed their charity work as well to show the teenagers not only knew how to party, but cared for the lesser fortunate!
Again, was merely making a statement, I don’t judge!
It’s highly amusing that while you berate people for using subjective qualities to make generalisations, you do the same thing yourself. What people enjoy is thoroughly subjective.
this is why i asked if english is your first language. you have a tendency to take intent and automatically turn them at 45 degrees to your advantange. to some extent twisting what others say is natural, but you make only the most minimal attempt at good faith.
(btw, there’s no comparison to Marie Antoinette in this case. Marie was using the taxes paid by the poor to fund her relishes. This guy is spending his EARNED money. It’s capitalism pure and simple
The point of Marie Antoinette analogies is generally to illustrate a situation in which someone is spending lavishly and without care while other people starve. Regardless of whether it causes you to question your ideological belief in capitalism, you have to admit that this situation would be analogous if Dr. Kothapalli isn’t spending a remotely comparable amount to what he’s spent on his daughters’ diamonds on ending malaria or some such thing. Which is impossible to know for sure, but the $2,000 contribution to the Bush campaign doesn’t make me optimistic. The only other contribution I could find was $1,000 to the Telugu Cultural Association.
On a sidenote, he’s apparently getting sued a couple times though. I’ll send whoever finds out for what a $1.
Aww c’mon now…that’s not fair. Anytime a physician is even named as a defendant in a medmal lawsuit it becomes permanent public record (at least in the state where I train, possibly in others), regardless of the outcome of the lawsuit. THIS SUCKS ASS because often in a lawsuit what happens is that the plaintiff’s lawyers get access to the plaintiff’s chart and every health care provider in the record with proximity to the “grievance” will get summarily named in the lawsuit.
razib:
You said: if i perceived that the conspicious consumption was driven by epicurean appreciation i would be less concerned.
I paraphrased the essence of what you were trying to say with a question for you to confirm: Right so, spending obscene amounts of money on trifles is OK only if you keep it to yourself? That makes no sense.
You didn’t bother to answer that question, instead you responded with a comment on my english. That’s good faith, huh?
Someone else:
I do understand your point, but I’m trying to think of it from my own context. I have a mobile phone that is 2 years old and works fine, but I fancy this new one that looks super cool. I really don’t need it but I would like to have it. For a homeless orphan in Bangladesh it would be considered an excess. Do you think I should not buy the phone and send the $AUD450 to said orphan instead? To many back home, $400 would be like $US200K to us…
I paraphrased the essence
no you didn’t. you know why i know that? because i know the essence of what i was trying to say. you paraphrased what you thought was the essence. this is a common problem on online discussions, but with most people (in my experience) it takes a few exchanges before people start talking past each other. you on the other hand don’t seem to have patience, you seem eager to distill the essence of what others say to set up your own arguments from the get-go. your “question” was based on what you assumed i meant, why should i respond if i think it’s off base? it had nothing to do with what i was saying.
also:
I really don’t need it but I would like to have it. For a homeless orphan in Bangladesh it would be considered an excess. Do you think I should not buy the phone and send the $AUD450 to said orphan instead? To many back home, $400 would be like $US200K to us…
is a classic example of what i’m talking about. you are creating a hypothetical based on what you think saurav believes, but you really don’t know what his assumptions are, only what you can superficially glean from a comment here and there. the cell phone example seems glib and trivial. instead of responding to his assertions you simply repackage them so that you can slot in your own talking points. everyone does it, but you’re an addict (myself, i probably disagree a lot with saurav, even on this issue, but if i get into an argument with him i’d try my best not to recharacterize his positions to suit myself).
Fair enough, Rupa. I got a little carried away with Google 🙂
Bengali, if you want to use this dude as an object lesson in global class inequities, hold on to your old phone for another couple of years, and give the 450 bucks to a family in Bangladesh, I think it would be tremendous. But I do think the situations are slightly different, in scale if nothing else.
Plus you’re not engaged in fairly bad parenting. 🙂