Sepia Destiny

Ever since I got my nano, I have been obsessed with downloading podcasts. Since there isn’t a Sepia Mutiny podcast for me to download (ahem) I do the next best thing and listen to a Desi Dilemma, a podcast by a woman named Smitha Radhakrishnan. This week’s series on ‘Desi Love’ perked my ear up- seeing as how the search for a ‘suitable mate’ is always at the forefront topic for most mutineers (or so it seems).

“There was a clear message from the Indian community about dating, that it was somehow inextricably linked with the most dangerous, scary thing that could befall an ABCD kid; an identity crisis.”

As has been mentioned before on this blog, as an ABCD youth one often had to deal with the projection by your peers that the only people you were expected to date is that one other desi in the school, even though you had nothing in common with them. Forget the fact that you weren’t allowed to date; if you had been, there was no one there for you to date, in the often confusing bi-cultural high school years. For me, this reminds me of senior prom. And prom reminds me of how my mother wouldn’t let me go to prom unless I went with my gay guy friend because only then would she know nothing would happen to me on prom night. How’s that for bi-cultural confusion?

Though in the realm of desi pride now, growing up there was also the conflict of trying to fit in and be as American as possible. I recently received the following e-mail:

I came to US at a young age, I faced discrimination from those who were born here… they acted like they were too good for me…Then as I made closer friendship with Americans to avoid all the bulls***t south Asians were giving, the new comers from south Asia started giving me the same crap. Eventually I became this “white boy” among SAs..Of course, I have learned to deal with such issues as I’ve grown up …But this question has always lingered in my mind… why do SAs hate each other? What makes US born’s better than those who come here? And how is it that those US born’s turn SAs so quickly during college years, and see those whom they disdained for being SA in the first place still as different?

Now that I’m older and in the ivory tower I can use big words like assimilation and racialization to analyze the divide in the generations, but really, when you’re just a kid in school, all you are trying to do is fit in. Being able to analyze this factor of bi-cultural identity now doesn’t make dating for a 20-something female any easier. In fact, knowing the internalized identity issues simply makes searching for love all the more confusing. There’s desi chick lit trying to manuever around it, and I regularly read a various group of blogs by single desi females all talking about similar issues. We are bombarded with desi dating websites, as well as pressure from family. Until that tab for Sepia Destiny is created, what’s a single girl got to do?

As Smitha asks in her podcast, and I’d like to further pose to you on this lazy Saturday afternoon,

“Are there things about being desi that give us a different set of expectations about our love life and our marital lives than our non-Indian peers?”
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About Taz

Taz is an activist, organizer and writer based in California. She is the founder of South Asian American Voting Youth (SAAVY), curates MutinousMindState.tumblr.com and blogs at TazzyStar.blogspot.com. Follow her at twitter.com/tazzystar

441 thoughts on “Sepia Destiny

  1. Jane,

    I hear you about not being able to express your need for a man in a feminist climate. You should be able to do so. Men say they need a woman all the time! It’s just the dreamy ‘forever love’ schtick that, in my opinion, women have to get beyond. I think it stops women from having fun – asking guys out, going to bars alone, having flings, having sex-only arrangements. Do some of this, be confident and sexy, and you will be surprised at how quickly you become an object of envy to the women around you who are hooked up. You might even find yourself reluctant to be boxed up in a relationship.

    I have quite a few female friends in their 50s. Only one of them is in a happy marriage. The others are all married, but one is in a sexless marriage and has no clue why her hubby isn’t interested anymore, another is with a man who can’t hold down a job and spends her money, another is with a workaholic, another is with an alcoholic. Very few of them get fawned over for V-Day. The whole ‘fawning’ thing is fleeting, and doesn’t reflect the reality of the vast majority of relationships. If you look for that in love, you are going to be disappointed, if not at first, then sometime down the road.

  2. Jane, having read your comment on ‘family values’, I suspect I’ll be put down as just another ‘self-absorbed’ product of our corrupt society but here goes anyway…

    It is more self-absorbed to brood on one’s lack of a man and how unhappy and unlucky one is in relation to other women, than to get out there, forget about it and have fun. There’s a lot of ways of being self-absorbed. An unmarried, childless female who devotes her life to poetry or to medicine or human rights , for example, is to my mind a lot worthier person than some chick who cries every night cause she’s not married yet.

    The family values crap being marketed around the US is a simple-minded, black-and-white reduction of human worth to conformity to a specific social model.

  3. I agree that it’s very hard to express the desire for a boyfriend/husband/relationship in today’s climate — or at least the circles that I travel in. Perhaps as a reaction to the anti-commitment feeling that pervades my social scene, I’ve been unabashedly open about wanting to “get married and have babies.” It’s become something of a joke now amongst my friends — one that I play up for laughs — but there’s a part of me that wonders why the want (need?) to get married and have children is something to mock. When I bring the subject up, the one comment I hear the most is, “but you’re too young to be settling down now! You have your whole life ahead of you! You have plenty of time to find a man.” I also get the “fabulous” comment as well — “but you’re life is so amazing. You’re healthy, hot, smart, have a great career; you don’t need a man!” And I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been called a “breeder.”

    Throughout my life, I feel like I have gotten mixed messages about how I’m supposed to function as a woman. Perhaps some of you can relate: my dad has always expected me to be an excellent student and have a great career. He wants me to get a PhD, make tons of money, and be financially independent. YET, he also expect me to cook, clean, sew, and be a wonderfully subservient wife. Honestly, it’s hard enough to meet compatible men as it is, and even harder when I’m pouring so much time into my job.

  4. The family values crap being marketed around the US is a simple-minded, black-and-white reduction of human worth to conformity to a specific social model.

    hmmm… even the militant founder of ms magazine got married. you are mocking the social contract that’s the bedrock to our society.
    i find that your perspective very conservative and hostile. not cool.

  5. Dharma queen, I’m a thirty-something divorced woman who is perfectly comfortable with her place in life. What struck me about janeofalltrades comment was the tone of wistfulness and the expressed feeling, or need, to be part of something larger. That can include being a doctor (as I am), being a poet, or being part of a relationship. Maybe all three? I didn’t interpret the remark as a slap or a rebuke to single women like, er, me, who is strong in her beliefs and in her person. I know who I am, even when I’m confused about who I am. I’m the sum of certain experiences, ideas, feelings. I have all kinds of thoughts and dreams. Oh, what am I trying to say? Just this: my parents, my beautiful, maddening, not-always-getting-me-desi parents have been married for almost forty years and love each other very much. The other day my mother said, “you know, your Dad and I don’t need anyone else but each other. We’re happy together.” It was amazing. It was really amazing. It’s a wonderful thing, isn’t it, to devote yourself to another human being? And by devote, I simply mean take another person’s happiness into consideration. A child, a partner, a spouse, can challenge and engage us in a way that is different from almost anyother challenge in life. Expressing a wish to experience this challenge is not family values as exclusion, but inclusion. That’s what I got out it, anyway. Be happy with your single selves, but don’t be afraid of wanting something else, either.

  6. Milli,

    There’s nothing wrong with wanting to get married and have babies – but are you ready to move ahead with life if, for whatever reason, it doesn’t happen?

    If not, and you’re going to spend your life crying into pillows and envying other women, then there IS something wrong with wanting it the way you are wanting it.

  7. I think it stops women from having fun – asking guys out, going to bars alone, having flings, having sex-only arrangements.

    :-) I think you’ll be surprised to know that women do DO all these things but wanting something substantial doesn’t mean they are sitting at home crying for love. They are out and about living life.

    I have quite a few female friends in their 50s. Only one of them is in a happy marriage. The others are all married, but one is in a sexless marriage and has no clue why her hubby isn’t interested anymore, another is with a man who can’t hold down a job and spends her money, another is with a workaholic, another is with an alcoholic. Very few of them get fawned over for V-Day. The whole ‘fawning’ thing is fleeting, and doesn’t reflect the reality of the vast majority of relationships. If you look for that in love, you are going to be disappointed, if not at first, then sometime down the road.

    What the above says to me DQ is because other people are living in mediocrity and aren’t really happy anyway I can safely assume I will be in the same exact position possibly 20 years down the road and shouldn’t even bother taking that road in the first place. Don’t you think there is something wrong about shaping one’s life and choices based on the negative direction other people’s lives have gone in? What about all the positive relationships around us? Why can’t we take a cue from those?

    And if you think wanting to be in a relationship is so I could have ‘fawning expressions of love’ I believe you’ve misread the whole context of my position. I’ve seen some very happy marriages around me and would like to have what they have. Perhaps not in a “marriage” concept but something about being with one man that you build a relationship with is pretty damn enticing to me. Considering I’ve experienced it in the past I’d certainly like to again.

    It is more self-absorbed to brood on one’s lack of a man and how unhappy and unlucky one is in relation to other women, than to get out there, forget about it and have fun. There’s a lot of ways of being self-absorbed. An unmarried, childless female who devotes her life to poetry or to medicine or human rights , for example, is to my mind a lot worthier person than some chick who cries every night cause she’s not married yet.

    DQ you are assuming that wanting a man equates to not being happy, not indulging in poetry or art or medicine or human rights or life in general or worse that it means crying yourself to sleep every night because you are unmarried.

    The family values crap being marketed around the US is a simple-minded, black-and-white reduction of human worth to conformity to a specific social model.

    I hate to tell you this but family values and the concept of a village is universal. I don’t think America invented it as you put it. I don’t find anything restrictive about it. I dislike the assuming people can only do one or the other and not both. Why can’t we have families and live happy fulfilled lives as well? Why the assumption that if we pick family values we are doomed for eternal unhappiness?

    I see gay couples who have wonderful and happy families, who choose to adopt from all over the world. Your argument would imply that because they are gay and society isn’t going to accept them anyway they may as well accept the status of an outsider and not fight for what they want. Recognition.

    Wanting to be part of a twosome has little to do with society or marriage or culture or childre or a village or a picket fence or any other so called black/white boundries. It’s about a more basic animal instinct. Why can we not recognize that?

  8. In need of a new social scene? How about the company of Mr. PropaMcGandhi?

    No lowest bid folks, start where you will…

  9. MD:

    I’m in complete agreement with your last line. However – you don’t strike me as someone who is going to collapse if you don’t get married, don’t have babies. I find the ‘family values’ campaign (especially in its nastier anti-gay, anti-abortion aspects), however, to be particulary noxious and reductionist, and perhaps I reacted strongly to that catchphrase. Futhermore, the whole image of the woman in her thirties who only thinks about getting married, and feebly looks on other women’s relationships with longing, seems to me to be extraordinarily cliched, for one thing, and extraordinarily destructive.

    Dhaavak – I wasn’t mocking marriage. One of my 50-something friends is in a good marriage and it is beautiful to see. But most of the women are in horribly unsatisfying relationships. Marriage is not a cure-all, and may not be for everyone.

  10. Madurai,

    Are you legally entitled to put up PMG for auction? I wouldn’t want to be bidding for stolen goods…

  11. There’s definitely a conservative backlash through the West and some of the comments on this thread reflect that. However – I am not mocking marriage and I’m not anti-marriage. I am against the feebleness of mind and character that whines and mopes over singledom and glorifies marriage. The majority of marriages suck. Some shine. No doubt about it.

  12. you are mocking the social contract that’s the bedrock to our society.

    damn i’m pompous there… can you tell i was multi-tasking there… and the conferenced folks thought i was taking notes.. :-) )

    Dhaavak – I wasn’t mocking marriage. One of my 50-something friends is in a good marriage and it is beautiful to see. But most of the women are in horribly unsatisfying relationships. Marriage is not a cure-all, and may not be for everyone.

    unsatisfying is not the same as hurtful. on financial terms alone, the quality of life one enjoys as a couple is 20% better – based on tax benefits, and shared expenditures. on an emotional level, being unavailable (like most men) may be unsatisfactory but is not the same as abusive and may be preferable to solitude.
    Let’s talk in 15 years. i suspect both of us need to explore this a bit.

  13. Sisters! Let’s not, in our leftist and feminist leanings, cannibalize ourselves over this. There’s nothing wrong with being open to and desiring partners and I think DQ’s underlying point is a good one: it really doesn’t serve our own interests to give the “am I in/am I not in a relationship” dichotomy this much primacy. And I don’t think there’s anything that’s undermining the possibility of happily being in one or the possibility of some relationships being very loving and worthwhile, to talk about the fact that

    The family values crap being marketed around the US is a simple-minded, black-and-white reduction of human worth to conformity to a specific social model.

    It sounds harsh, and of course it’s possibly and probably not true for a lot of us on here, but come on – family values is almost an industry unto itself in the US. Have a happy family! Buy a bigger house and don’t forget the video games for Billy and the Barbies for Chrissy, oh heterosexual dual-income smiling couple! And if you’re not there yet, buy more beauty products or a fancier car and keep on truckin’ because some day, this could be you!

    Again, I’m not saying we’re buying into this – but that’s a message that’s propogated… everywhere. I don’t think the issues of being with someone/not being with someone is something that any of us can really come up with any kind of helpful answer for here – entire magazine empires base their sales and profits on this perennial question – it’s certainly not just a desi issue.

  14. There’s definitely a conservative backlash through the West and some of the comments on this thread reflect that. However – I am not mocking marriage and I’m not anti-marriage. I am against the feebleness of mind and character that whines and mopes over singledom and glorifies marriage.

    DQ, conservativeness is the inability to consider a different point of view or to accept other people’s needs. it is just the sub-text on your mail – feeble.., mope, …, whine – that i find patronizing.
    let me take another tack. Let’s say i have girly-girl cousins – and i may not agree with their pov, but they’re my cousins, i’ll stand by them and definitely call them stupid to their face as your are doing. would you, especially if they’re leaving you alone?

  15. Dhaavak, do you really not find the Bridget Jones type ‘whiny’, ‘mopey’ and ‘feeble’? Do you really not find the chicklit that revolves around this type of female utterly vacuous? I do.

    I’m not calling any individual on this thread stupid. But if I had a good friend who spent their time weeping about being single, and wanting what other women have, I’d tell her what I’ve said here. And I’d expect the same from her. And incidentally, I’m a thirty-something female just out of six year relationship, who would like something substantial in the future too. In the meantime, I’m having a good time.

  16. Dhaavak, do you really not find the Bridget Jones type ‘whiny’, ‘mopey’ and ‘feeble’? Do you really not find the chicklit that revolves around this type of female utterly vacuous? I do.

    I don’t read chicklit have never read a single one. There are mopey women out there who want a man because they feel incomplete. We aren’t talking about those women. You chose to dismiss the existence of todays independent, smart, successful and woman about town “wanting to be with a man’ by your ire towards chicklit?

  17. Jane – you’re tilting at windmills right now. Where in any of my comments have I dismissed the ‘independent woman who wants a man’? In my initial response to you I said it was fine to state that you’d like a man, and you shouldn’t be trashed for doing so. But when it comes to envying other women just because they’re in a relationship, and yes, wasting one’s time moping and whining – yeah, I have total contempt for that.

  18. Dhaavak, do you really not find the Bridget Jones type ‘whiny’, ‘mopey’ and ‘feeble’? Do you really not find the chicklit that revolves around this type of female utterly vacuous?

    i confess the joys of that branch of contemporary literature have passed me by. I am quite fond of other british creations like Mr Bean though. :-)

    In the meantime, I’m having a good time.

    for a better time, come to TO this summer – sepia party (attn: anupa, ang, badmash, neha) – how about the abbey on the island.

  19. Hello:

    Although it’s a bit late, I thought I’d share my point of a view: the individual experience of a guy who happens to be brown non-Desi (read Hispanic) dating a girl who happens to be an ABD. I use the ‘happens to be’ because although our respective races and cultural backgrounds don’t define us, it is still a large part of who we are.

    In many ways, our experiences are very similar. Our parents immigrated to the United States to pursue advanced degrees and settled into careers here. We each speak our parents’ languages, celebrate our cultural holidays, eat our traditional foods, etc. The really interesting thing is that although our respective cultures are very different on the surface, the values we hold are very similiar, perhaps more similar to each other than to contemporary American culture.

    More specific to the topic here, I guess I find that the cultural issues aren’t that bad. There is some pressure from my family to marry Catholic and the like. Her parents have asked me about my interest in Indian culture, food, etc.; her mother gave me a copy of the Gita.

    In the end, our relationship is based on mutually held values, respect for each other, good communication, etc. There’s a very good chance that we will marry, and if so, we’ll have a multicultrual household. Our children will probably learn Hindi, English, and Spanish. We’ll probably celebrate holidays like Christmas with my family, and celebrate holidays like Diwali with hers. The religion issue may not be such a big issue since I had already been in a process of exploring and converting to Hinduism.

    In the end, I guess the only things I can say are that one’s family, culture, and values are important. I can understand why people prefer to be endogamic; it can eliminate a lot of confusion and make it easier to be accepted by family. However, what is ultimately most important is finding someone who will accept, respect, and love you for who you are. Part of this means helping each other grow as people over time, and an intercultural relationship is bound to provide plenty of room for growth. When it comes to marriage, which is ideally a life-long commitment, you do need to have common values and life goals.

    In conclusion, I think there are arguments both ways, and there isn’t a simple rule that can apply for everyone. In my case, I think the intercultural thing will work fine, but there’s no guarantee, yet. Still, each of us is only looking for one person, right?

    Cheers,

    M. D

  20. Ladies, ladies…

    All this commentary about what kind of men desi women want, how to find them etc have been repeated ad-infinitum on this forum and many others. And I’ll say what I said on those other forums…

    All men are born dorks. I mean seriously, we are completely clueless idiots. I have no idea why Mother Nature was so cruel to us, but rest assured, a seven-year old girl has enough maturity and poise that a man should feel lucky if he has attained that at the age of seventy.

    So every man you see out there, jocks-geeks-fat-tall-handsome-doctors-musicians, in bars, in weddings, in college, in parties… is a dork. He is a mindless piece of clay that needs to be molded into what you want him to be. So it behooves on you to pick one, wrap him around your little finger, and make him do what you want to be done. You need to whip some sense into him. You need to slap him around until he sees things your way.

    It’s hard work. It takes years of marriage to make that happen. Kids definitely help – hence smart women get pregnant within a month of marriage. (Trust me – two years of changing diapers can do more to domesticate a man than ten years of a childless marriage.) You need to watch what he says, when and where. You need to train him so well that if someone in a party says: “Nice weather – sunny and 80 degrees“, he will look at you to make sure that you agree, before opening his stupid mouth. You need to make sure that the bumbling idiot puts all of his interests behind yours. You need to train him so that he doesn’t burp, fart, stink or have premature orgasms.

    Hell yeah – it’s hard work. Years, sometime decades of hard work. Work that your mothers have painstakingly done. But there’s an easy way out…

    Get a married man. No cooking required. Ready to eat, just pop it in the microwave. Preferably someone close, like your elder sister’s husband. He’s trained, well known, has been whipped around for years and knows how to conduct himself. Sure…your sister will be devastated and your family may not talk to you anymore. But hey – you’re a woman. Your first duty is towards your womanhood.

    Or maybe your best friend’s boyfriend or husband. Or maybe that guy at work who brings his kids to work every Christmas.

    Why work hard when there’s low-hanging fruit?

    But getting back to my original point. All men are dorks – so it makes little difference which dork you pick. It all depends on you in the end.

    M. Nam

  21. @md,

    The other day my mother said, “you know, your Dad and I don’t need anyone else but each other. We’re happy together.” It was amazing. It was really amazing. It’s a wonderful thing, isn’t it, to devote yourself to another human being?

    eventually i think this is just it.

    as far as i am concerned, my single self was in an accident a little while back (and unhurt completely). the only thing that bugged me immediately after was that i didn’t feel the need to call anyone. that was when i realized exactly what i wanted from all this relationship/marriage/whatever-else-you-want-it-to-be: just a woman “to be with”.

    i know i am not saying this right. it is difficult to put it into words, but i mean it something like the way md says it.

  22. All men are dorks – so it makes little difference which dork you pick. It all depends on you in the end.

    this is funny—reminds me of a seinfeld episode. he claims all men dress identically in tuxedos at weddings because from a female perspective, men are fundamentally same and unreliable. if one chickens out, everyone takes a step to their side, and the wedding continues :) .

    but of course, men don’t dress identically at desi weddings. read what you will into that :) .

  23. Oh gawd MoorNam, Is this your attempt at humour? For the love of Christ.

    Okay this thread is getting out of hand. The love is gone.

  24. Byteword’s post no. 373 is a good example of expressing a desire without being mopey/whiny. However, if he’d pointed out that all the other guys he knows have someone to call if they get into trouble, and that they all would have someone making them chicken soup when they got home, and that he also would like to know what it is like to have someone make him chicken soup, he would be mopey/whiny. See the difference?

    Dhaavak – abbey on the island sounds great.

  25. Let’s say i have girly-girl cousins – and i may not agree with their pov, but they’re my cousins, i’ll stand by them and definitely not call them stupid to their face as your are doing. would you, especially if they’re leaving you alone?

    umm… typo alert.

  26. For JOAT, keep the hope alive

    Red: [narrating] I have no idea to this day what those two Italian ladies were singing about. Truth is, I don’t want to know. Some things are best left unsaid. I’d like to think they were singing about something so beautiful, it can’t be expressed in words, and makes your heart ache because of it. I tell you, those voices soared higher and farther than anybody in a gray place dares to dream. It was like some beautiful bird flapped into our drab little cage and made those walls dissolve away, and for the briefest of moments, every last man in Shawshank felt free.

    From Matt Stone, creator of South Park

    I hate conservatives, but I really fucking hate liberals.”

    Party on, MoorNam. MoorNam, we still disagree on other issues.

  27. Byteword’s post no. 373 is a good example of expressing a desire without being mopey/whiny. However, if he’d pointed out that all the other guys he knows have someone to call if they get into trouble, and that they all would have someone making them chicken soup when they got home, and that he also would like to know what it is like to have someone make him chicken soup, he would be mopey/whiny. See the difference?

    rolling eyes sorry can’t help myself. You keep bringing mopey/whiney women crying themselves to sleep, while all along it was about women wanting a man for love/sex not to validate her existence.

    There’s nothing wrong with wanting to get married and have babies – but are you ready to move ahead with life if, for whatever reason, it doesn’t happen?

    How fatalistic. At what point do you recommend people give up on wanting companionship?

  28. Jane – Nice attempt at backpedalling. Wanting flowers on V-Day just like all the women around you SCREAMS of wanting a man to validate your existence. You must have had flowers on V-Day before. It can mean a lot, it can mean nothing. The flowers can be an apology, a coverup, an empty gesture, a sign of passion, affection and/or love. You must have been fawned on before. In and of itself it means nothing. Suppose you’re fawned on by a guy who cheats on you, or lies, or doesn’t live up to his promises?

    Your ‘fatalism’ point, like most of your points, fails to hit its target. Where is the fatalism in the statement you quoted? There’s no assumption that what you want (ie getting married, having babies) won’t happen, but only the suggestion that you’d better be prepared in case it doesn’t happen.

  29. Jane – Nice attempt at backpedalling. Wanting flowers on V-Day just like all the women around you SCREAMS of wanting a man to validate your existence.

    I’m trying to understand why you are so angry and hostile. You still think this is about the superficial shit. After this 385th comment to this post I’ve said all that I needed to and you actually managed to prove my original point. Todays hardcore feminazis have created a “No Man’s land” in a woman’s world because she’s deemed a whiney/mopey pathetic loser if she desires one!

  30. Dhaavak – abbey on the island sounds great.

    can you paddle – it’s either a canoe or take a ferry with the yobs? btw – the abbey serves delicious chocolate cake in case you need to carbo-load for the trip back.

  31. Stand in as what?

    sorry – i guess that was a sort of an inside joke
    ‘Kush’ is a popular name among North Indian Punjabi families for a boy among a pair of twin boys… the sibling being named “Luv” … ok it was funny in my head.
    i’m simple ok…

  32. Jane,

    I don’t know why I thought it might be beneath you, but apparently it isn’t – you’ve fallen back on the tried and true method of discounting someone with supposedly ‘feminist’ views as ‘angry’, ‘hostile’ and a ‘feminazi’. Examine this thread and it will become clear who is hostile. You’ve ‘rolled your eyes at me’, called me angry, hostile, a feminazi, fatalistic, and ireful. Apparently I touched an extremely raw nerve.

    If it is any consolation to you, I’m not angry. In fact, I would like to start the bidding war for PMG before his feelings get hurt. Come on Jane, let’s turn this into a real catfight.

  33. Whoa, Jane…

    and you actually managed to prove my original point. Todays hardcore feminazis have created a “No Man’s land” in a woman’s world because she’s deemed a whiney/mopey pathetic loser if she desires one!

    That’s quite the slur to appropriate. Let’s let the misogynists keep their facile generalisations. I don’t think anyone here is proposing desire = whiney/mopey, pathetic or loser. However, one too many otherwise strong, financially independent, successful women – and men – crack in the face of this one issue – and that’s disturbing, no? Is it so terrible to propose that we have the agency to not let this rule our lives unless there’s something worthwhile to pursue/nurture?

  34. I don’t want or claim to be a mediator, but it seems like you, jane and dq, are reading more into each other’s comments than I can see, unless I am missing something. I don’t see dq as a feminazi and I don’t see jane as a whiny bridget jones at all (not that you claimed she was).

    It’s almost as if jane knows/knew of a person (person x) similar to dq, and vice versa, and now are filling in the between lines with information from experience person x.

  35. bwahahahahahahah…. ohhhh! dhavaak I wish I got that pun – even painfully explained to me, it’s still hilarious.

  36. It’s almost as if jane knows/knew of a person (person x) similar to dq, and vice versa, and now are filling in the between lines with information from experience person x.

    correction: …. with person x.

  37. Metric, Yeah, two people in an argument can become symbols or ideologies to each other, and cease to be fully rounded people. Good point.

  38. Apparently I touched an extremely raw nerve.

    No I guess it’s a Saggi trait, I see negative information coming my way the eternal optimist in me can’t relate. All the reasons why a woman SHOULDN’T be getting into a relationship are unnecessary and extremely dismissive when women speak of wanting love IMO. I’ve seen this more often then not.

    I guess after you hear for the 865th time ‘Oh you don’t need a man’ it can get really irritating because people who say that often disregard the basal need for a man and ALWAYS assume it’s for superficial needs or for some personal validation or that the woman’s life and she would fall apart if she didn’t find one.

    If it is any consolation to you, I’m not angry. In fact, I would like to start the bidding war for PMG before his feelings get hurt. Come on Jane, let’s turn this into a real catfight.

    I’ll let you guys dual it out for PMG. :-) I have a crush and my eyes on another Mutineer who is oh so elusive and out of reach.

    It’s almost as if jane knows/knew of a person (person x) similar to dq, and vice versa, and now are filling in the between lines with information from experience person x.

    Hmm not really. DQ is entitled to her opinions and I respect them. It is highly possible that in real life we possibly share the same viewpoint because we have in the past during many a discussion. We just picked the opposite side this time. And I think DQ was speaking of woman A and I was speaking of woman B. They are two different women. It’s pointless to speak about one and refer to the other.

  39. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to get married and have babies – but are you ready to move ahead with life if, for whatever reason, it doesn’t happen? If not, and you’re going to spend your life crying into pillows and envying other women, then there IS something wrong with wanting it the way you are wanting it.

    I know perfectly well that there’s nothing wrong with wanting to get married and have babies. What I do resent is that I am criticized for wanting to do so, whereas my peers who have opted for alternatives are celebrated for being independent and non-conformist. (Not saying DQ criticized me for this but my friends have, as stated in my earlier post)

    I think that you’re presenting limiting options here, DQ. 1) Want marriage and babies and be successful at obtaining both OR 2) Remain single and eternally unhappy/envious of others’ relationships. Just because I want to get married doesn’t mean that I’ll spend the time that I’m single feeling unhappy about it! There are much better ways to spend my time. There are a lot of things I want from life, and I’m not crying myself to sleep because I don’t have them. I either do what I can to make them happen, or roll with the punches when I realize that something is no longer possible.

    I’m sort of resentful of this idea that we (men and women) should be these strong, independent people, never needing the company or help of others. If I don’t get married, I imagine that I might try to develop a healthy social circle of friends. What’s the difference between wanting friends and wanting a life companion? If I’m not codependent on friends, why would I be codependent on my huband?

    Ugh, just rambling now. Too much caffeine + no food = cloudy head Milli

  40. Byteword’s post no. 373 is a
    ***rolling eyes*** sorry can’t help myself.

    i think i feel “used” here :D

    @379, 386, 391 ah, that is what is happening…