A new Indian proposal would reserve half the seats of India’s city on a hill, the exalted halls of IIT, for historically oppressed castes.
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Would you riot for Samuel L. Jackson, foo’? |
But it’s not just India. The NYT reports that not only is the misuse of quotas politically appealing in America, it’s so appealing that white students are using DNA tests turning up two to three percent black or Native American ancestry to claim minority status in college admissions. It’s a microcosm of the American national character, both high tech and shameless 
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Prospective employees with white skin are using the tests to apply as minority candidates, while some with black skin are citing their European ancestry in claiming inheritance rights… Americans of every shade are staking a DNA claim to Indian scholarships, health services and casino money… “It’s about access to money and power…”“If someone appears to be white and then finds out they are not, they haven’t experienced the kinds of things that affirmative action is supposed to remedy…” Ashley Klett’s younger sister marked the “Asian” box on her college applications this year, after the elder Ms. Klett, 20, took a DNA test that said she was 2 percent East Asian and 98 percent European… she did get into the college of her choice. “And they gave her a scholarship…” [Link]
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p>One person is after not just money, but a Scottish castle:
Pearl Duncan… wants a castle… the DNA test confirming her 10 percent British Isles ancestry gave her the nerve to contact the Scottish cousins who had built an oil company with his fortune. The family’s 11 castles, Ms. Duncan noted, were obtained with the proceeds of her African ancestors’ labor. Perhaps they could spare one for her great-great-great-grandfather’s black heirs? [Link]
I can’t speak to American Indian princesses, but Indian-American Princesses are already legendary 
… the three-year-old company had coined the term American Indian Princess Syndrome to describe the insistent pursuit of Indian roots among many newly minted genetic genealogists. If the tests fail to turn up any, Mr. Frudakis added, “this type of customer is frequently quite angry.” [Link]
IMO economic affirmative action in education is a good idea to help break the cycle of poverty. In contrast, race-based affirmative action is incredibly imprecise, clubbing wealthy minorities in with the poor and casting a pall of suspicion on all those who made it on merit. In fact, the remedy is not only indirect, it’s intrinsically flawed. The overlap between race and class is imprecise, and the more successful affirmative action in its stated goals, the greater the divergence. In race-based affirmative action’s birth lie the seeds of its destruction.
Quotas in the workforce are a terrible idea because because no one wants someone with lower abilities as a neurosurgeon, astronaut, pilot or the cow-orker in the next cubicle. And setting the quota at 49%? Organizational suicide.
Kush – get over your inferiority complex already. Why drag in the US or the UK when no one else is making a comparison. Of course there is ethnic and other bloc voting everywhere. The question is why caste-based reservations are a choice political move in India. There has to be some basis for that.
Your point about only thakur candidates being posed in thakur-dominated constituencies etc., only confirms this – if caste weren’t an issue, the parties wouldn’t hesitate to put other types of candidates there. No one is suggesting that ONLY caste is an issue. But it is an issue. Hence the political motivation for caste-based reservations.
Bytewords, thanks for the Dubey info. Inspiring and sad.
Dharma Q – I thought we had an understanding – that you would refrain from criticising other countries/cultures until you start taking a closer/much needed look at your own backyard. The crimes committed by your people are amongst the most heinous mankind has experienced. And the sad part is that the canucks have yet to beg forgiveness for their vile methods of ethnic cleansing. And NO, just because you are of Indian origin or were not born there does not absolve you of the responsibility to at least air these issues publicly. Also, If you would like me to refrain from assigning the moniker – hypocrite to your compatriots, have the decency to refrain from pointing fingers at others. Remember that live in glass houses, don’t change clothes during the day….or use the bathroom, for that matter.
hallejuha! those mounties were terrible ethnic cleansers, you know it!
Look NotPC – the day there are news items on this site dealing with Canadian Crimes against Humanity (CCH), I’ll join you all in a bash the canucks fest. Please take note that most people on this thread have been talking about caste based reservations at IIT and other schools, NOT CCH.
Is Razib one of your aliases?
hallejuha! those mounties were terrible ethnic cleansers, you know it!
Well, they actually did have a plan along the lines of sending all the South Asians in Canada to British Honduras (Guyana) in the early 20th century. They didn’t go through with it thankfully.
First some facts..
About merit and reservation. This is the TamilNadu medical admissions cutoff criteria.. for 2004
Another analyst, Jayaprakash Gandhi of Salem, notes that last year the cut off scores for MBBS entrance in the government colleges were (including the TNPCEE scores) — OC-295.74; BC -294.26; MBC-292.13; SC-287.56; and ST-274.00.
The lowest marks of the ST candidate is 274/300 that is 91% .
Karnataka and TamilNadu have been using reservations for engineering admissions bordering in the 69% for decades..
Most of the FDI in high tech industries goes to these states..
It is a fascinating experience to read the comments here..
This is what someone else commented in another board
## the iits were not exclusive institutions. anyone who qualified by competition could get admitted to one, regardless of religion, caste, language, region, income, or wealth. they are therefore for ALL people. we want to keep them that way.
Once every kid in India is entitled to the same quality of education regardless of religion, caste, language, region, income, or wealth I’d agree with you.. Till that time, the govt. should give those crutches. Agreed that this system is not proper and open to abuse, but it is better than having “market forces” dictate.. because “market forces” can never help the folks at the bottomline.. and they have no incentives to do so..
First of all, students don’t get into IITs by just going through the regular academic rigour.. IIT-JEE requires special coaching and a different kind of preparation.. If there is any student in the top 2000 ranks who qualified for the IITs say they did not take any special tuitions (like Brilliant/Agrawal/ other umpteen coaching centres) I’d be really surprised. If you know of someone who just by his/her natural brilliance woke up the day of the JEE and cracked it, please let me know.. The exams are biased in favor of urban / affluent and kids who probably had well educated parents..
Good. You don’t want to know what they are like. I still want to forget them and I can’t – even after 25 years of messing them up utttterly. They are terrible ad designed to reduce brains to mush. And then folks the ICS – Indian Civil Service went out with the Raj. In India we have the Indian Administrative Service and a host of other services, Indian/Foreign Service/Police/Revenue etc. The entrance process for the these services – the civil services – is again very rigourous. A preliminary exam from which qualifies go on the Mains – compulsory papers in English, Hindi and General Studies(?) and two electives (anything from Anthropology to Statistics) – Kush pl fill in the details. Candidates are rank ordered by marks scored and then called for an interview, group discussion and a final panel interview. The system is very fair and is well set – which is why politicians as a rule aren’t complaining. There’s arguably no better civil service selection system anywhere else in the world. But this is a v.v.big topic and so let’s not get into that. And the UPSC exams are certainly not biased towards privileged classes.
As I have been pounding out for the last few days on the web let me repeat it here. India has a merit based selection system for the best universities/institutes and that includes IITs/IIMs as well I am too tired to explain that now. Maybe later. Now if the reserved category student could have topped aero at IIT Bombay what it illustrates is that the correlation between talent and entrance test marks is not entirely reliable. And in any case race and caste are bogus ideas; and the idea that these have anything to do with achievement is horsemanure. If a reserved category student who scored less than the general cutoff mark can be admitted why not a general category student who scored less than the cutoff?
In India families especially the lower middleclass spend like crazy on education – out of all proportion to means. Selections to IITs/IIMs is not correlated with privilege as much as access to urban centers. It is in the cities and towns that one finds coaching centers. And it is the the lower than the middle middleclass tiers that produce the largest group of elite school admits in India. It is for them the payoff is the highest. The wealthier families as a rule send their kids abroad. These folks can’t. Check out the Doon School (Rajiv and P Chidambaram studied there) class of 2005 and you will see. I have a couple of cousins and a ‘family friend’s son’ who entered IIT. One of them has never seen his father being a posthumous child and studied in a municipal school – and used to practice math with a piece of chalk on scrawling on the floor. The other two have lived very modest lives both of them flew for the first time when they flew into the US to study.
Krish, Ambedkar isn’t around today. As for Chandrabhan Prasad and BP Mandal they have talked about the creamy layer.
If you know of someone who just by his/her natural brilliance woke up the day of the JEE and cracked it, please let me know..
A lot of them without coaching. They were excellent students to begin with. They had passion for math, physics, and chemistry.
Do you really want to start naming them? If you insist, I’ll do it but would not rather do it because one day they might google their name one day.
They are ex-IITians who are coaching poor students. In fact, one group had 30 candidates from Bihar place very high JEE test last year.
I knew a completely blind student from IIT (Powai) who did his PhD in Applied Math/ CS from Cornell and later worked for Adobe. Again, I am refraining from naming him. I think he is driven by brilliance.
About a year ago, India Today showcased a women who is now an investment banker in London – through IIT (Kanpur) and Wharton. She is a Muslim from a village. Her grandfather was the guiding light for inspiration and he took her to exam center for JEE everyday to the town form her village. India Today subscriber, please help me out with more details.
Ask byteword, DesiDudeinAustin, technophicgeek for more stories.
Krish
Prove it that a brahmin cooks son who worked for a bania was a priveleged class and suppressing any one. Jutts and Thakurs have a history of one upping each other in haryana wesetern UP region So today no one in there right mind can argue that jutts are underpriveleged class. Who was dominant class when and why is simply no one concerned.
Regarding education I allways felt that the governments role has more to do with creating a solid foundation. Atanu and many others have pointed out that there is a market for higher education. In that regard the governement is wasting its money there yet a market needs to be created in primary education The government if it had half a brain would get out of IIT/IISC/IIM/REC/AIMS rather would focus on delivering primary education. If the kind of resources that get put in running IITS into primary education for EVERY ONE. And then let elite and plebian education center evolve. India has a large enough private sector education market. Gurucharan das had pointed out that mostlikely a privatesector led org will provide the solution to indias dismal education. Here is what he had written .
PS india did kick out an american university who wanted to operate a campus in india. The reason was indian accredidation folks refused to allow them to call themselves a university.
PS since this is kind of caste related i am not a khatri just my handle is.
Kush:
That is good to know.. Now tell me how many out of the 3000+ candidates every year belong to that category.. Just give a %..
IITs and IIMs are elitist institutions and the govt. has spent so much money on those. The govt. has every right to decide the admissions policy..
Kush pl fill in the details.
Shiva the original, you did a great job explaining UPSC exams but just let me add the basic framework of UPSC exam, and bandwidth (it gives a lot of freedom) it has
Paper-I One of the Indian Languages to be selected by the candidate from the 18 languages included in the VIIIth Schedule to the Constitution (Qualifying Paper) 300 Marks Paper-II English (Qualifying Paper) 300 Marks Paper-III Essay 200 Marks Papers IV & V General Studies (300 Marks for each paper) 600 Marks Papers VI, VII, VIII & IX Any two subjects (each having 2 papers) to be selected from the prescribed optional subjects (300 marks for each paper) 1200 Marks Total Marks for Written Examination 2000 Marks Interview Test 300 Marks Grand Total 2300 Marks
At this point I want to you to introduce one of the smartest and sensitive blogger, Uma from IndianWriting. She is an IAS (Indian Administrative Services) officer. She is an example of how for most part these exams pick the cream of India. Maybe, guys here should ask her about socio-economic angle of selection. She probably knows more than any of us here.
One of the top civil servant in India is a woman from Sikkim – No Delhi, Mumbai there. She used to be the Foreign Secretary of India. She was ambassoador to Ireland, Australia from India. Anyone remembers her name. People are talking about her being the President of India, one day.
Couple of points:
The Indian government is using census data from 1931 to formulate its brilliant list of OBCs. That’s right – 1931. Caste data was collected in the 1951 census but was never analyzed and the categories were simply dropped in subsequent surveys, which only included data on scheduled castes and tribes (SC/ST). [Link]
It’s hard to come across relevant current data since the Indian government appears content to talk out of its ass, but a 1992-1993 study (conducted by the National Family Health Survey) of correlations between caste and economic condition found interesting results in three states surveyed (UP, Bihar and Tamil Nadu). While the survey found that SC/STs and OBCs generally lived in miserable conditions, it found wide INTRA-group economic variation within SC/STs and OBCs. It also found that despite decades of a popular Dravidian movement against its 3% Brahmin population, Tamil Nadu’s Dalits still remained in pathetic condition. The study concluded that pure caste based policies were an ineffective way to uplift lower castes as a whole because the already privileged members WITHIN each designated quota benefited the most. Economic criteria would be a more effective way to uplift the most disadvantaged Indians. [Link]. Also see [Link]
Using the 1931 census, the Indian government compiled a list of some 3,743 castes to be classified as OBC. Here a few examples of what OBCs include [Link]:
a) UP & Bihar – Yadavs (yes the same Yadavs who control the political machinery of UP and Bihar) b) Gujarat – folks with last names like Thakore and Rathod c) Tamil Nadu – scheduled caste converts to Christianity IRRESPECTIVE of the generation of conversion d) Rajasthan – Jats (!)
SMR:
after 111 posts, finally, something realistic and logical, and i would imagine, applicable to everywhere in the world.
=)
Mandal-1 was implemented in 1989 and the subsequent 17 years have seen phenomenol growth of the Indian economy. So maybe the idea of caste/race based reservation is not a hinderance for economic growth….at least in the short term.
At a social level however,its like an old wound has been re-opened.No matter how much those of us from Bombay or Delhi continue to deny it,caste identity and affiliations run deep.
Back in college(a national insitute in Delhi…truly cross-sectional….North-South…rich-poor….general-reserved) some of my most terrible memories are those of students fighting each other on caste lines…otherwise smart,sensible people who would turn into neanderthals…….the reserved castes had a simmering anger coupled with a complex…..the general category an all-round rabid anger at the reservation policy……no attempt was made ever from either side to understand each others position.
This would eventually lead to much destruction…….I guess you do have to demolish a building to be able to construct a new one but there should be smarter ways of doing it.Unforunately,our society does not seem to possess the maturity ,the patience or the direction to be able to find those.
Cry ,the beloved country.
Ponniyin Selvan,
Thanks for the link in Post 106.
However the question arises: As backward castes become upwardly mobile, they must be be given the forward label. For example, the Nadar caste of Tamil Nadu is probably ready to be called forward. But there is no pressure to declare them forward.
(I think) the whole point of this debate:
-is one based on principle. Its only symbolic whether we make affirmative action race-based or economic-based, because despite the exceptions that occur in every group in society, the overwhelming majority of low-caste people are poor.
-Sorry for pointing out the obvious, but talking about the rich low castes vs poor high castes is like saying that indians are v rich based on the example of lakshmi mittal. a few indians are v rich, most still live below the poverty line. there are a few people who have ‘made it’ from lower castes, but this needs to be put in perspective.
-I also think that making affirmative action based on economics goes against the very reason that affirmative action was created in the first place. the phrase grew out of the civil rights movement to recognise the disparities between blacks and whites in america created by historical injustices. removing the factor of race from it is like taking away the colours from the rainbow and leaving only the outlines. as much as we would like to, we cannot make a history of racism towards lower castes (particularly in our own country which has been through colonisation)invisible.
-yes, there is a small minority who cheat the system. just like there is a small group of people who cheat on welfare. but that does not mean that the system itself is unfair.
-i do think that ideally we could make it economically tested, but in reality we need to take into account the brutal treatment of those outside and on the lower rungs of the caste system throughout history, many of whom are also indigenous people, and how this treatment has in many ways, not been erased. someone commented earlier that 80% of students at iit etc. are from privilieged classes. i DO NOT think it is right to make the quota 49%, but maybe increasing it to around 25% would help erase some of the unfairness in society.
-the symbolic erasing of history by a mechanical value system of economics may have its place, but not within affirmative action.
@taz, affirmative action (reservations) in india existed since independence (’47). it has nothing to do with the civil rights movement in the US, it has its roots in the independence movement in india (not sure why you brought that up, disregard it if you did not mean so).
also it is not symbolic to make it economics based instead of caste, i would think it will significantly change who are the recipients. it is part of the complications/dilemma that we face today.
the reservation level in the iits is already around 25% and in most states it is around 50-70%. so increasing it to 25% is not the point of discussion here. the issue is increasing the reservations in iits and iims from 25->50%.
and it is not the reservations for sc/sts (indigenous people included) that is the point here. the ones who bore the brunt of the discriminations were the sc/sts and indigenous people. the reservations we are discussing here would be for what are known as obcs (other backward castes). i would use the term carefully, some of the “obcs” in question are the ruling/dominant (politically and economically) groups where they come from.
taz and tashie… please don’t kill me :). too late in the night for me!
what did I say??? Did you confuse me with tashie?
brown ppl should all go tamilanananananathan and have multisyallabic names so that ppl can’t be confused. how aboot that, ey? (i hope you’re freezing your asses off up there…i had a hard time finding a really cold city on weather.com so i can’t offer a link)
affirmative action (reservations) in india existed since independence (’47). it has nothing to do with the civil rights movement in the US, it has its roots in the independence movement in india
Yes, in fact it some even pre-dates independence.
Even in electoral politics, there are constituencies @ State and Center (Federal) that are reserved for SC/ST/OBCS and SC/ST/OBCS candidates in general category does not count to the quota.
I want to bring a fascinating profile of George Fernandes. He is a Christian from Karnataka. His power base lies in Bihar, initially as Union leader. The first time he won a major election (became a kingmaker) was from Mumbai/ Bombay.
Most of the season center-level (Lok Sabha) politicans are wily survivors who really can work their way into alnost any demographic/ religious/ caste configuration with promise for pork.
Rae Barelli constriuteny was originally Feroze Gandhi’s constitueny. Feroze Gandhi was a Parsi getting elected in UP as a labor leader. Then it become Indira Gandhi, Rajiv Gandhi, and Sonia Gandhi’s constituency. Maneka Gandhi, a sikh, and widow of Sanjay Gandhi is MP from Philbit constituency (Uttar Pradesh) on a BJP ticket. I do not think there is significant sikh vote in Philbit.
Jaya Prada is an amazing example of pure star power. Dharmendra, a sikh Jat from Punjab is a MP from Bikaner (Rajasthan) – sure, Jat affinity is playing some role. Raj Babbar – a muslim, and a three time MP from Agra is rumored to join BJP soon.
Very early on thread, I said there has to be affirmitive action in India but as byteword said, not going over-board with it.
i’ve never met another Ananthan, im not sure what i’d do if i did… i think we both might explode.
to: v smart people:
-wow you really know your stuff! which is why i kinda said that ‘the PHRASE’ grew from that movement. reservation schemes and quotas for people from underprivileged groups has been in place in many countries for a long time.
-to me the connotations of that phrase and what it stands for is intrinsically tied to race and historical injustices arising from racial discrimination.
-i just looked at the debate from a symbolic point of view, so all those who think i’m a bit crazy direct said anger towards me, not poor taz…
-to me though, it is kinda worrying that while those from the ‘economic-based’ camp agree with those from the ‘race-based’ camp that we need to help the poor, often in many situations those who argue for economic-based funding are NOT from underprivileged groups themselves. to me that’s a bit of a warning bell. its sort of like giving someone medication and then asking a healthy person in the waiting room,’so, did it work?’
-also i won’t be killing anyone, byteword and others, since your arsenal of empirical data is formidable and my views are not set in stone and most of my knowledge on the topic does not come from india or the us but where i live. if you see what i posted earlier, i was very divided on this issue. i’ve been reading arundhati roy’s ‘the ordinary person’s guide to empire’ as i’ve been checking this post, so that’s been influencing me too.
-however, its not often that i say this, but with this topic even ms. roy hasn’t gotten my fully convinced… economic-based camp, take a bow.
*me fully convinced. woopsies.
I meant that the OBC classmates of mine were as well off or even more well off and had all the resources available with them, so why did they need reservations ??
That sounds neat !! Then the next logical step would be to introduce reservations in the course of your career growth as well, 50 % of all managers, 60% of all Directorsetc in company should be from the reserved category, all promotions should be caste based and there should be an independent government appointed body to enforce this rule.
Oh well, I will just send my kids back to Kerala, get the non creamy layer certificate and tell them that they are OBCs and require special handouts. I can sleep peacefully at night anyways knowing that this has been a tried and tested formula that has worked well for the past 60 years and there arent any more farmers committing suicides and all the adivasis are jumping with joy knowing that IITs/IIMs have reservations for them.
me asking you not to kill me had nothing to do with the discussion.. it was because of this:
i mistyped tashie’s name as taz. 😛
@tashie,
not many will insist on economics based reservations and doing away with race based reservations. and again, this is not a technicality, the recepients potentially change significantly for economics and caste based reservations. but again as i mentioned before (#72), the purpose of reservations is not complete. what many people will debate over is how much (the current caste based) reservations there should be. so it is not clear cut as the economics vs race camp here.
continuing from #127 now it is really time to sleep. but just one more…
tashie, make up your mind based on what you see when you are in india. it is usually not a good idea to listen to me or anyone else on a topic as divisive (and something that has touched many on this thread) as this. several people involved have had widely varying experiences on this, and to a large extent these experiences mold our opinion.
if you read any one opinion, no matter how articulate it is, or how much we claim to know it all, you will only see one angle of the story. just see the range of opinions on this thread, eg. (i am picking three widely varying unique opinions) #58 krish, #86 vanya and #92 jm—you will see different people have had very different experiences. there is no point in contesting any of the three experiences as invalid, but you can you see any one solution to all three? in my opinion, none of the three are isolated.
it is a deeply messy problem. therefore the moment some politician comes up with a fix/improvement/idea just before elections, i tend to be really suspicious.
P.G.Wodehouse
Thanks for the link in Post 106.
However the question arises: As backward castes become upwardly mobile, they must be be given the forward label. For example, the Nadar caste of Tamil Nadu is probably ready to be called forward. But there is no pressure to declare them forward.
First, we need to abolish caste system based on birth. that system might have worked in say 1000 B.C, but not relevant anymore. WHy do we keep pushing for “forward/backward” etc.. The creamy layer from the so called OBC/SC/STs needs to be removed. They garner all the benefits leaving just a few crumbs to the really deserving. It should be made available for just the first generation folks..
Second, as someone pointed out, people who argue for reservation based on economic conditions in India are most probably the people born in the “so called” privileged castes.. :-)). The reservation clause in the constitution talks about “socially AND economically” backward classes. Even if the “economic capital” is low for some amongst the “forward castes”, they have a high “social capital”, (say aunts/uncles as senior government officials, in the industry, in foreigh countries). Personally, my “upper caste” friends at school who can claim that they have been denied engineering admissions due to reservations, either joined B.Sc, did M.C.A, joined Aptech/NIIT etc.. and right now work in the booming IT/software industry, like everyone else. If you have a “100% reservation” to inherit the “social capital” through intra-caste marital relations, why not offer a “minimum %” for the historically under-privileged classes in the “academic” and “bureacractic” machinery to improve their “social capital”. Makes sense?? 🙂
Personally I agree that the economic background of the candidate should be the primary factor, but unfortunately this is complicated by caste-prejudice issues within India which mean that the caste factor can’t be ruled out entirely.
I agree completely. Unfortunately, as we all know, this is easier said than done — and there have been attempts by various groups to eradicate this system and the associated mentality for at least 500 years (certainly 300 years — speaking of which, Happy Vaisakhi everyone).
People with a certain mindset, cultural environment, and cultural conditioning like to keep dividing themselves up into increasingly “exclusive” groups, especially if doing so enables them to feel some kind of advantage or sense of superiority over the other groups. Desis are particularly prone to this kind of behaviour, and it happens out here in the West too — in the UK, pertinent examples would be caste-based gurdwaras (the very notion is an oxymoron and heretical concept within Sikhism), or the fact that Hindu social organisations here frequently splinter into adversarial caste-based “clubs”.
By the way, my (much) earlier point about caste being a “non-issue” amongst Indians here in the West, at least the UK, was to do with barriers to prosperity and career progression. It’s obviously a complete irrelevance with regards to the wider population. However, a disproportionate number of individuals within some groups here do still perpetuate the “caste mentality”, most notably Jatts amongst Sikhs and Patels amongst Hindus.
I have applied for US Visa, I am out of India. Those idiots can screw themselves.
Kush,
Feroze Gandhi’s family has a long history in Allahabad. I once met a distant relation of his (who is a Ghandhi BTW, born post 60s) whose Hindi is pure Allahabadi, drawl and all. Pilibhit is in the Terai right, where you have a large number of Sikh farmers who moved in from the Punjab post WW1? Maneka is remarkable even with all that and one of our finest parliamentarians. George Fernandes’s story is a stirring one. Fergya left Mangalore for Bombay attracted by the ideology of Lohia. Worked his way up on the streets of Bombay and organised the Hind Mazdoor Sabha unions. He speaks 1/2 a dozen languages fluently.
maybe a good start fro change would be to stop calling them backward classes, and maybe, just my opinion here, underpriviliged, infering economic condition, and this would cut across the indian caste system. then as many many have suggested, give those UP population a leg up by giving them basic high quality primary and secondary education, as well basic medical care. part of this would mean economic assistance as well, as many times young children have to help support family by working, and cant goto school, or go part time.
this long discussion as been an eye opener for many i am sure, not familiar with the system in india, but for me, it has been a huge eye opener for the mindset of people as highly educated as many here are, as well as economically successful. seems even talking about it is divisive.
ponniyin, some minor issues. i am not completely familiar with the scene in tn. so the disclaimer: you will have to pardon wrong assumptions here. [neither are you apparently abt karnataka :)–it had a 50% cap on all reservations (= 50% for merit) till recently, and as far as i know still does. unlike the 69% number you mentioned in another comment.]
nope, and it should not be that way. and the reason is that while the above statement is intellectually pleasing, there is no way you can implement it. what we have just calls for reservation for classes which are listed as per the constitution. that list defines “backward”, and the way you get on the list is the democratic route. there is nothing fundamentally wrong with the approach.
now, this is exactly the statement (in the reverse direction) that contributed to the 5k odd years(or 2k or 1k years whatever you like) of oppression. you know very well aptech/niit route (or mca) hardly has anywhere near as many opportunities as an engineering degree. neither does a bsc–unless you get extremely lucky.
if you say their uncles and aunts will give them jobs in the private sector, or that they can go abroad, i must remind you we are talking abt the engineering degree here. i doubt anyone would give a job to a nephew with no (appropriate) degree. and except a handful, no one in india has the capability to fly to US leave alone study there. this “support structure” that is supposed to exist (i have heard a lot abt this) is just a myth in all except a few cases.
but i defer further discussion to those of you who have actually been through the system in TN—you and jm and whoever else (i forget now).
my point is this: note that i am not speaking against reservation. just that i don’t believe it is a simple “us vs. them” issue. it is ok to accept that some people get a raw deal with the reservations. what is wrong to assume that these cases negate any justification for reservations.
reservations are necessary but they are not a “cure all”.
typo there: i meant “what is wrong is to assume that these cases negate any justification for reservations.”
Ponniyin Selvan wrote:
And how do you propose doing this? If a Yadav girl wants to marry only a Yadav boy, should the state insist that she should only marry a non-Yadav boy? How about if Patels want to hang out together? Should the govt imprison Patels who get together for whatever they want to do? What is your opinion on freedom of association?
BTW, your link in #106 only showed that the state in its zeal to marginalize the 3%ers has not found that browbeating them is not enough. It also needs to make tests so easy that 10,700 out of about 137000 students scored perfect or near perfect scores of >= 197.5 out of 200. I wonder if there is a correlation between percentage of near perfect scores in a state administered exam and its zealotry against the “open competition” people.
Your link also had this gem:
Nice touch, eh? I suppose you could argue that there might be Asians with 1600 SATs and 4.0 GPAs who cannot get into Harvard, but at least Massachusetts does not have a state motto, “Stick it to the Man. The China Man.”
“the 3%ers has not found that browbeating them is not enough” should have been “the 3%ers has found”
bytewords,
[neither are you apparently abt karnataka :)–it had a 50% cap on all reservations (= 50% for merit) till recently, and as far as i know still does. unlike the 69% number you mentioned in another comment.]
I got some reference for the numbers …The party demanded implementation of Mandal Commission report in toto in the case of Other Backward Classes. The party said 63 castes have been identified in the Jammu and Kashmir under OBCs which qualify for 27 percent reservation under the category of socially and economically backward castes identified by Mandal Commission for J&K State. the memorandum added that if the Government wants to give reservation to residents of backward area, it can give the same on the pattern of Karnataka and Tamil Nadu Governments, where the reservation has exceeded upto 69 percent….
We have to go into some background here. States like TN and Karnataka have reserved engineering seats for the SC/ST/OBCs for decades (amounting to 69% ) before the central govt. promulgated Mandal commission recommendations for 27% reservations to OBCs in govt. jobs.. When people filed cases against this, the Supreme court enforced a limit of any kind of reservations not exceeding 50%.. (from the mid 90s) That affected states like TN which continues to reserve 69% of seats, while the affected students go to court every year and this kinda became a ritual.
One more clarification.. I think in the constitution it is “socially and educationally backward” classes and economic condition is not even mentioned..
now, this is exactly the statement (in the reverse direction) that contributed to the 5k odd years(or 2k or 1k years whatever you like) of oppression. you know very well aptech/niit route (or mca) hardly has anywhere near as many opportunities as an engineering degree. neither does a bsc–unless you get extremely lucky.
Well.. I just narrated my personal experience.. It is possible that a few folks get screwed.. and this may look like a “reverse discrimination”. I have no “Fix Everything” magical solution. But look at this..
… Nearly 15 years after the Union Government brought in the Employment of Manual Scavengers and Construction of Dry Latrines (Prohibition) Act, 1993, manual scavenging, one of the most degrading and dehumanising of the occupations `assigned’ to Dalits under the hierarchical Hindu caste system, remains not the least affected by the legislation.
The Act sought to abolish manual scavenging by declaring employment of manual scavengers for removal of human excreta an offence, and to prohibit construction of dry latrines. The Act’s failure to make a dent on the obnoxious system is attributed to the apathy of the Governments at the Centre and in the States. While the Centre took four years to notify the Act, the State Governments took three more years to adopt the Act as required by the Constitution. Even after the Act came into force in many States by 2001, no significant fall in the number of dry latrines or those engaged in manual scavenging has been reported. ..
Of course, the reservations (right now) are supposed to be for OBC’s and not for Dalits, but you get the drift. These folks are used and exploited by the govt., (who cleans the municipality / corporation sanitary drains when it gets clogged), companies etc.. etc.. Same case for let’s say rickshaw pullers.. How can you expect “merit” from the kids who grow up in such environments. Even getting their kids to school would be a great achievement..
I don’t think giving a few seats in IITs / IIMs would suddenly lift the folks up.. It would probably end up benefitting the “creamy layer”. But who knows, even if a few kids make use of the govt. scheme to get out of the vicious cycle, the scheme would be a success and I’d welcome it..
apparently the reference (a j&k newspaper i think) got it wrong. from the cet info page (not written by the govt, but fairly reliable), the number is 50%. the 65% number is for certain private colleges and minority institutions only (if they choose to, it has nothing to do with sc/sts or obcs or the central govt mandated reservations. govt colleges cannot have more than 50% reservations. and if remember right, even this is a new rule, and it is fairly controversial and contested in the court right now, and definitely not decades old as you say:
i am not sure from your comment, but i think you accept my point—i never said there should be no reservations. but it is not as if reservations are a magic cure either. and the dalit issue you brought up is fairly irrelevant for your point as you probably acknowledge—we are talking abt reservations for obcs, not dalits here. just to calrify: personally i think it is ridiculous to even say that dalits don’t need reservation. but that is not the discussion here.
re: my last post, you need to read the apr 5 2006 entry (05-04-2006).
my fault, you do say it is not the dalits but the obcs that we are talking abt. sorry abt that!
This thread is pretty amusing, rich, forward class, diasporic desis lecturing forward classes in India on morality…
Here’s and idea, since Indian-Americans (almost all belonging to the oppresive 30% forward classes in India) are so over represented in medical schools, MIT, Stanford etc. I think we should have a quota for whites, blacks, latinos and the like in American medical and engineering colleges.
Indian-Americans make up only 1 percent of the population so they should only have access to 1% of spots in medical and engineering schools.
Also we should have a quota against the ‘Indian mafia’ in private companies in silicon valley. (similar quotas should be applied against the Jews, East Asians, etc).
I also propose a quota against the browns in the Motel industry where Indian Americans have an unfair advantage, cab driving and owning 7-11s.
Who is with me ? Who thinks that this will improve the quality of American goods ?
Quotas based on race don’t help uplift the massess but they do help reduce conflict between various groups.
bytewords:
The link you posted is fairly recent (after the SC judgement). Someone more knowledgeable about the current karnataka scenario can comment. As far as TN is concerned, I am pretty sure that it is 69% atleast from early 80’s.. One more link..
…The next category of people who are entitled to affirmative action benefits are the OBCs, all of whom collectively enjoy 27% reservation of government jobs, and admission to educational institutions. It was only in August 1990 that reservation of jobs became mandatory both in the central government and the States; prior to that such reservation was accorded only in a few states in south India. For instance, in Karnataka reservation exceeds 70% while in Tamil Nadu it stands at 69% with the result that only 30% of jobs and admissions are available for competition on a merit basis. However, in November 1992, the Supreme Court decided that reservation should in no case exceed 50% of the total…
On a related note, The Ministry for Minority Affairs has a new item on their agenda, -classifying Hindus in Jammu and Kashmir, the Northeast and Punjab as a “minority.” Fair and Square. But not good for the health of the nation, in addition to being a bureaucratic nightmare. Need-based affirmative action seems to be the only fair solution, imo.
i have been thru the system in karnataka, that is why I was sure abt the 50%. besides this whole issue abt numbers in karnataka was because i told you this:
but you took out the first couple of sentences when you quoted me. i never claimed to be sure abt tn, so like i said before, i defer to your statistics there.
there is not much point in saying this is new in karnataka. before the 2006 judgement even private colleges had to adhere to the 50% norm. and before ’90s (admittedly when i was too young), there was no regulated common entrance test to speak of, so the reservation issue was fairly uninteresting since it could hardly be enforced in private (even aided) institutions.
but you may probably agree with me, this issue—while relevant—should not be the focus of the thread.
And how do you propose doing this? If a Yadav girl wants to marry only a Yadav boy, should the state insist that she should only marry a non-Yadav boy? How about if Patels want to hang out together? Should the govt imprison Patels who get together for whatever they want to do? What is your opinion on freedom of association?
There is only so far a govt. can go. It cannot legislate on who should marry whom / or who should associate with whom.. Changes should come from the society.. 60 years back, it is tough to imagine a Dalit / OBC dining with the upper castes. You had different “wells” (hindu upper caste / Muslim / hindu lower caste) for drawing water .. or Dalits / lower castes entering temples / walking in the upper caste streets with slippers.. You don’t see that in cities / towns / villages-connected-to-towns anymore. Of course there are probably interior villages and large regions where this is still happening.. I am positive that 60 / 100/200 years from now, caste discrimination will be a thing of the past.. Maybe kids will talk about their grand-mom being a Dalit Malayalee Indian and grand-dad being Brahmin Tamil Indian (more in the lines of Americans having a French / Irish heritage.. :-)) )
@144 b-e-a-h for pm? you will have to get past me first. i am the kingmaker, puppet master and everything similar.
bytewords
there is not much point in saying this is new in karnataka. before the 2006 judgement even private colleges had to adhere to the 50% norm. and before ’90s (admittedly when i was too young), there was no regulated common entrance test to speak of, so the reservation issue was fairly uninteresting since it could hardly be enforced in private (even aided) institutions.
but you may probably agree with me, this issue—while relevant—should not be the focus of the thread.
Though this is not the focus, just to clarify that my intention was not to mislead, this is from the reliable of all sources, the parliamentary debates.. … But I would only like to say that the Bill passed by Tamil Nadu has been struck down by the High Court. The leadership was given by no lesser a person than Ms. Jayalalitha who has really shown a way to all other States. Unfortunately, wherever the States have given the reservation for more than 50 per cent, it has been struck down by the High Courts. That is why, I say that the Supreme Court has to change this ruling. I have with me a table here which gives the State-wise reservation. In Andhra Pradesh, the general reservation is 71 per cent, but it was struck down by the High Court. In Karnataka, it is 68 per cent. It met the same fate. Again, in Madhya Pradesh, the reservation is 78 per cent. It has also met the same fate. Tamil Nadu’s 68 per cent has been included in the Ninth Schedule. Therefore, Kerala has passed a Bill. That Bill is to avoid or to remove this creamy layer. The name of the Bill is Kerala State Backward Classes Reservation Act. Therefore, that Bill of the Government of Kerala has also to be included in the ninth schedule. That is, the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes (Reservation of seats in Educational Institutions and of appointments or posts in the Services of the State) Act of 1993 should also be included in the Ninth Schedule….
This might be classified as an “abusive, illiterate, non-issue-focused flame” but why hasn’t anyone taken a hit out on Jayalalitha yet?
This might be classified as an “abusive, illiterate, non-issue-focused flame” but why hasn’t anyone taken a hit out on Jayalalitha yet?
Jaya AMMA can absorb all the bullets u got…. bring it ON!!