A new Indian proposal would reserve half the seats of India’s city on a hill, the exalted halls of IIT, for historically oppressed castes.
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Would you riot for Samuel L. Jackson, foo’? |
But it’s not just India. The NYT reports that not only is the misuse of quotas politically appealing in America, it’s so appealing that white students are using DNA tests turning up two to three percent black or Native American ancestry to claim minority status in college admissions. It’s a microcosm of the American national character, both high tech and shameless 
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Prospective employees with white skin are using the tests to apply as minority candidates, while some with black skin are citing their European ancestry in claiming inheritance rights… Americans of every shade are staking a DNA claim to Indian scholarships, health services and casino money… “It’s about access to money and power…”“If someone appears to be white and then finds out they are not, they haven’t experienced the kinds of things that affirmative action is supposed to remedy…” Ashley Klett’s younger sister marked the “Asian” box on her college applications this year, after the elder Ms. Klett, 20, took a DNA test that said she was 2 percent East Asian and 98 percent European… she did get into the college of her choice. “And they gave her a scholarship…” [Link]
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p>One person is after not just money, but a Scottish castle:
Pearl Duncan… wants a castle… the DNA test confirming her 10 percent British Isles ancestry gave her the nerve to contact the Scottish cousins who had built an oil company with his fortune. The family’s 11 castles, Ms. Duncan noted, were obtained with the proceeds of her African ancestors’ labor. Perhaps they could spare one for her great-great-great-grandfather’s black heirs? [Link]
I can’t speak to American Indian princesses, but Indian-American Princesses are already legendary 
… the three-year-old company had coined the term American Indian Princess Syndrome to describe the insistent pursuit of Indian roots among many newly minted genetic genealogists. If the tests fail to turn up any, Mr. Frudakis added, “this type of customer is frequently quite angry.” [Link]
IMO economic affirmative action in education is a good idea to help break the cycle of poverty. In contrast, race-based affirmative action is incredibly imprecise, clubbing wealthy minorities in with the poor and casting a pall of suspicion on all those who made it on merit. In fact, the remedy is not only indirect, it’s intrinsically flawed. The overlap between race and class is imprecise, and the more successful affirmative action in its stated goals, the greater the divergence. In race-based affirmative action’s birth lie the seeds of its destruction.
Quotas in the workforce are a terrible idea because because no one wants someone with lower abilities as a neurosurgeon, astronaut, pilot or the cow-orker in the next cubicle. And setting the quota at 49%? Organizational suicide.
haha, love the sneaky ways in which people define their ‘heritage’. watch the bbc doco ‘motherland’ and laugh at this black dude who spends his whole time in london just bitchin’ about ‘africa and slavery man’, finds out his exact tribe, and then travels to africa only to find out that his ‘warrior name’ means slave trader and that ‘his tribe’ were middlemen who sold their own kind to european colonists.
on one hand, i can see where people who disagree with race-based affirmative action are coming from. they want to address inequalities too, but on the principle of economic needs which is the whole point of affirmative action anyway. and there are some who cheat the system…
from the outside its mainly just a symbolic debate, but from the other side those who support race-based funding see it as an acknowledgment of the strong correlation between raced and social status for the worst-off in society, who were usually previously indigenous people/slaves.
its all v troubling. on one hand we need to acknowledge historical injustices, on the other hand we need to be practical. then i think of people like my friend jamie, who is the first person in her family to go to university, to not be on permanent welfare or in a low paid job, and to go do a double law and arts degree at that. and all of this through a special race-based scholarship which pays for all of her fees.
however, even someone who supports race-based funding agrees that 49% in IIT is crazy. the aim is to move towards equality NOT an inverted hierarchy, which is just as bad.
Are the people in Bangalore insane?
haa haa haa, here,it is cow tipping, there, it is car tipping… i’m surprised no one burned a local bus and a petrol stations for good measure… i thought they always did em in three’s.
Rajkumar has an effect on people and yes, he is deemed to be the “voice” of kannadigas. He is much revered … But when will these people realize that burning buses and throwing stones will not bring him back…hey! it’s the tax payers money…Aughhhh
Someone did try to burn a petrol station and would have succeeded – if only it wasn’t for those meddlesome policemen.
The DNA testing thing is rife with possibilities of legal misuse. Do you think American juries, when they sense an entitlement, back down from awarding the plaintiff (over common sense). Remember the first Vioxx trial ? More on it here.
i always used to be, well still am, amazed at WHY they like to flip cars and burn public buses, which i am sure some would need to have taken home. stoning gov. cars, ok, i sor tof understand, well, i gues si understand stonign any car, but public transportation.. well, thats a mystery… the petrol station, i guess at some point ther eis an explosion as the fire gets tothe tanks, and maybe people like watching big huge fireballs…
but in this instance,why they went and ruined the guys lawn and clashed with cops, where there were injuries is baffling…
i have two posts on the topic, here and here.
Thats exactly what the MandalII proposal is. Its a RACE BASED classification. A lot of Indians dont admit (or dont know) that ‘Caste’ is the same thing as ‘Race’. Indian constitution originally wanted to abolish Caste based quota in a few years after independance. In a shamefully pandering way Indian politicians keep continuing the “Caste/Race based Quota” system.
I like how “Ashley KlettÂ’s younger sister” is ignorant enough to think she will gain an edge by marking the Asian box. Forget about having a negligable impact–she will easily harm her chances. It’s ignorance like this that makes the general public think that Asian (and, by association, Indian) Americans BENEFIT from racial preferences.
think minority – become minority. It is a (negative) state of mind.
The bloggers at Sepiamutiny while religiously, and regionally diverse are all from what are defined by the government of India as ‘forward communities’.
This would more or less be the make up of educational institutions without a caste based quota.
70% of Indians belong to ‘backward communities’ (scheduled castes/scheduled tribes/OBCs as defined by the govt of india), a certain level of quotas are necessary to keep the country from disintegrating.
The trick is to stike the right balance between the allocative efficiancy of merit based entrance and the conflict lowering effect of reservations.
The reservation is not necessarily a bad idea:
1) The OBC category will have extremely competent students, who are just a hair below the open category students. We are not talking about a massive handout here.
2) The elite institutions, more than others, should strive to represent India, and not just the upper castes. I would think that for management in particular, it is a good idea to interact with students who represent the cultural landscape – and not just one portion of it.
3) With such a high rate of reservation, the so-called quota students will have a large presence on campus. They will not so easily be ostracized (as the Dalits have been in the past). Many will surprise the naysayers and admirably succeed.
4) MNC employers will still be able to distinguish students based on their performance at the IITs. The proposal seems to call for doubling the open category seats in any case – so the same number of people who would have gotten in in the past will still get in. The cream – of whatever caste – will rise to the top.
BEAH,
Whether you get to blog on SM is a function of your financial stability (having a computer/internet) than your caste. Having reservations based on so-called backward caste and not for economically backward students is just as injust. Many urban “dalits” are on par and surpass others, at least economically. Although, reservations are needed, they should be based on income/access to primary education/representation in society. It surprised me to see that colleges have “payment/donation seats for OBS/SC/ST”.
It would be helpful if you back up your 70% number theory.
it is not a question of just caste, dalit and brahmin.
There are lots of poor people who are from foreward castes. Just as there are a lot of rich people who are from backward ones.
This is a really complex area. I agree to one thing – that it is going to be difficult to reverse centuries of social injustice in a few decades. However alongside the quota system we also need to create wealth and jobs for all the people of the Union of India.
What we need is a non-Congressi government who are going to take bold steps on craeting a strong domestic private sector, increasing competition and using clever protectionist capitalism to lift individuals out of poverty.
minority/ majority mentality, minority/ majority appeasement and caste based politics and social system is one of the rots that holds India back.
To supplement what Hammer Sickel wrote, the issue of caste isn’t really relevant in the case of Indians living in the West. One’s caste is a non-issue here with regards to income, future financial prospects, educational background etc.
Jai:
Ok, I know, eaiser said than done.
To supplement what Hammer Sickel wrote, the issue of caste isn’t really relevant in the case of Indians living in the West.
It doesn’t seem that way if reads the comments at SM regularly. 70-80% of SM readership is western-based.
I never seen “emotional ownership” of caste and religion ever among Indians than what I see on SM, not even in the motherland.
It is quite possible that only a certain section of people are more inclined to comment. Maybe. Often, in motherland, there is an unwritten rule that one never asks somebody’s caste/ religion nor open declares theirs (except the thakurs in Bollywood phillums). You can run into serious problems doing so.
So, Jai, I would say the opposite to your observation.
“I never seen “emotional ownership” of caste and religion ever among Indians than what I see on SM, not even in the motherland.”
Kush, as a western born desi, I had no concept of caste growing up. Thus, I’m not even 100% sure what caste I am (seems like a complex system), and it never came up in family conversations… well only once as a child when conversing about India, and naturally I asked…. needless to say the response didn’t mean very much without a proper context. Maybe this is why you see so little acknowledgement of it here on SM.
However, posts like these do put in perspective the problems with the caste system in India. I do appreciate this.
Nope its quite to the contrary. Each caste is proud of its ancestory/customs etc and even without asking they will often disclose it to you. People allways ask me where r u from or what are you? When i say from punjab the question has often been, jutt,khatri yaa pundit. My reply is choordha. The expectation is that you will either be a jutt,khatri or pundit dont know why no one asked me if i was a baaniyaa ever….
And it is not something that people would not discuss with others. Often it begins with ooh i am a khatri from place x…then so
And RC you are wrong on caste as being race based. Look at kumaon pundit and a kashmiri pundit and a south indian pundit A kumaoun pundit has more in common with the rest of kumaon resident. They have significant ‘pahari’ ancestors and it looks so, A lot of them have asian features(eyes, sinewy build etc). A kashmiri pundit looks more similar to a kashmiri non pundit. same goes for south indian pundits(i know about some claims that they are aryans and are lighter skinned than other south indians etc, but i dont buy that cause you can see the variability in skin complexion allover india and often in the same family.)
GGK, I will have to agree with Kush . It is considered uncouth to discuss one’s caste in most cities and big towns. I think (do not knwo this for a fact) caste is discussed openly in the smaller towns and villages.
My issue with the current reservation system is that it benefits the same people whose parents and possibly grandparents have taken already advantage of these reservations. We should restrict these benefits to only one generation and (I know this is difficult to implement) make sure others who are really backward get to take advantage of these programs. Curently a small minority ( I do not have any links for this ) benefit a lot and sometimes at the expense of a FC candidate who is otherwise poor.
Irrespective of what one feels , I think we can all agree that reform is needed at the structural level not just increase reservation “quotas”.
Metric Ang,
You are probably misundertanding my point:
a) The problem of caste system is very deep and pernicious still in India, even today. It very easily translates to economic opportunities. Often people change their surnames to “Singh” even if they are not Sikhs/ Rajputs/ Thakurs so that they can seemingly become caste-neutral to the society. I know people who have dropped their surnames, like Kamal Nath Gupta becomes Kamal Nath.
b) However, for reasons that it can be very sensitive, people do not put their caste and religion on their sleeve in India in public discourse. I also know that using their identifier in public is on rise in India as opposed to 80s-90s. I think expats do more so, as a tenous connection/ entitlement to motherland. Look around for Gujarati Society, Brahmin Samati, etc. in North America. They are toothless (or harmless) in the bigger scheme of things in North America or West and in principle they may have some postives too – but it is more explicit among expats and PIO (People of Indian Origin).
c) Often, I see comments here, like somebody who would say, I am a Punjabi Khattri or Shaiv Hindu, etc. in their discussion as their distinct identifiers. I must repeat there is nothing wrong with that. However, back in India, you would never bring this on the table beacuse you are sensitive to other’s caste, religion and affiliations during the discussion. Maybe, it is only a facade in India, but it is there. I have denied the real problem beneath the rug.
Correction: I have not denied the real problem beneath the rug.
HA! Half the time when i had this discussion its the urban semisophisticate who asks me these questions to me on my flights to india… And there is nothing wrong with any one asking that. I dont think any one considers it uncouth or offensive. Villagers in india are more reserved. They dont typicaly initiate conversation with you you have to do it yourself where as urban desis are more open to discussing anything with you…
Gujrati society doesnt have to do with caste as its understood in english speaking crowd, unless you are talking about gujrati jaat as a superset. Both hindu and jains are members and they both have several castes internal to them When i used to be a student i used to attend there meetings just as a casual observer, no one cared that i did Brahmin society, saraswat, patidaar orgs are caste based.
Again the point is not to pooh pooh some one for associating in a caste/region/religion based organization.
OK. I think we move in different circles.
I think it might differ regionally. I grew up in the south and among friends this was never a topic of conversation. It was to be avoided at all costs (more so than religion). I don’t even think it is facade as Kush puts it. We always thought caste was something your parents discussed not urban semisophisticates like us.
Also, I consider it ironic that the sepia crowd who is always asking “who am I? ” considers adding caste to one’s name harmless.
I agree with Kush on this one. Thats what my experience has been. I feel it would be rude to do so.
Well, they began as race/ethinicity based classification by the Portugese. Caste isnt even a real Indian word. (Varna is not the same thing as ‘Caste’) As most other things in India, Castes arent scientific AT ALL (at least the OBC). They are extremely arbitary today and thats one of the reasons why OBC getting special treatment would be arbitary and thus stupid and un-useful to the perported aim of bringing all sections of society into “main stream”.
Kush – Most Indians don’t ask about caste because they probably don’t need to. One can generally tell by the family name exactly which jati a person belongs to. Kids are generally not interested in caste issues, but it means a lot to the older generations on account of the culture that goes with it. Generally speaking, in India, people pretty much derive their identity from their caste and ethnicity. In fact, even on this board you find people refer to themselves as gujus, mallus, and bongs – not exactly caste but the closest thing (and the equivalent of caste under the circumstances) for second genners.
Caste is just about the most misunderstood thing about India. No question there are terrible atrocities associated with it, but there is much that is good about it. It is generally represented as something exclusionary, but actually it is much more a “belonging to” (Manu Smriti notwithstanding). Only in the last few years have people begun to take notice and to do a serious study of the system, rather than the constant knee-jerk maligning. Here’s one report from a study by the World Bank.
“Since 1985,” says the World Bank’s World Development Report, “Tirupur has become a hotbed of economic activity in the production of knitted garments. By the 1990s, with high growth rates of exports, Tirupur was a world leader in the knitted garment industry. The success of this industry is striking. This is particularly so as the production of knitted garments is capital-intensive, and the state banking monopoly had been ineffective at targeting capital funds to efficient entrepreneurs, especially at the levels necessary to sustain Tirupur’s high growth rates.”
“What is behind this story of development? The needed capital was raised within the Gounder community, a caste relegated to land-based activities, relying on community and family network. Those with capital in the Gounder community transfer it to others in the community through long-established informal credit institutions and rotating savings and credit associations. These networks were viewed as more reliable in transmitting information and enforcing contracts than the banking and legal systems that offered weak protection of creditor rights.”
“The amount of networking and contract enforcement mechanisms available with caste institutions has not been fully studied, despite the striking success of Tirupur. The same is true of the Nadar community in Virudhunagar area entrenched in the matches and printing industries. On the other hand, large amounts of literature are available on Marwaris, Sindhis, Katchis, Patels, etc, and the global networks they have created. But the point that is often still missed is that, in a financial sense, caste provides the edge in risk taking, since failure is recognised, condoned, and sometimes even encouraged by the caste group.”
http://newsinsight.net/columns/full_column22.htm
The quota system is very divisive and can only have negative results in the long run. It would be best to work out some form of need-based initiative.
Being a troll these days is so much fun
ItÂ’s a microcosm of the American national character, both high tech and shameless
BEAH:
70% of Indians belong to ‘backward communities’ (scheduled castes/scheduled tribes/OBCs as defined by the govt of india), a certain level of quotas are necessary to keep the country from disintegrating.
This is SPOT ON and what people must understand before bemoaning the “dilution of merit,” in IITS and IIMs.
Thats how a lot of people also refer to themselves in india, so in that sense its not off. Just so that every one is confused thoroughly (or exposed to the complexity/nuances) There is no analog word for caste in any indian language. It was a british creation ManuSmriti describes varna which is a category but also has the same etymology as color so there in comes the categroization. Jaat can be regional or categorical identifier…. PS there are groups such as ramgarhia who never fit the 4 caste stratafication in and get lumped in where ever they feel like and often intermarry in punjab area to who ever they felt like. So it is a nuanced thing Add to it a tribal issue India has regions where people are tribal(at some level every group is a tribe) but there is an understood defination of what i mean by tribe. Some of their beliefs are (hindu + other elemet). In North India some are Buddhist + other element. And a lot of them are christian converts…. They also are lumped in the caste framework as scheduled tribe…. Bhils,Baigas in central india are tribes in central india proud and protective of their culture. The issues they face are different than a south indian shudra who has been marginalized for generation or a north indian achoot. The sad part is its a 1 sized fits all policy. Bhils want more integration with the rest of society, Baigas dont. Baigas want a collective tribal owned land. The current framework ignores all these issues.
It is not surprising that the blog-o-sphere is totally pissed off about the reservations. However, it should be noted that the blog-o-sphere is filled with people from priviledged sections (people who toasted the lower end of the society for more than three thousand years). What do you expect from them? They will whine because they will be losing the monopoly they enjoy on education, jobs, etc. Trying to portray as if there is widespread condemnation regarding reservations is wrong because most of the bloggers and journalists in India ARE NOT from under priviledged sections and you will only hear criticism about reservations. I am not surprised by the reaction by priviledged sections against reservations. It is similar to the reaction against affirmative action by certain sections of whites. The only difference is that the same people who oppose reservations in India (as it is suitable for them) are the one who support affirmative actions too. In a single sentence, I can sum up the attitude of desis. Desis, liberals abroad and conservative at home.
BTW, if someone is interested, there is a paper in civil rights journal about how Indian reservation system is better than the affirmative action system in US. You can check it out at
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0HSP/is_1_4/ai_66678565
the dalits are against any reservations or obcs, scheduled castes etc.
should read: the dalits are against any reservations for obcs, scheduled castes etc.
I dont know if it refers to my handle… If it does it has to do w/ a knockoff of Jimmy da Tulip Tudesky character in a desi movie…. If it was my real name why would i or why wouldnt i put my caste on my name? I dont see as belonging to any caste as a offensive by any means.
This is NOT TRUE. In North Indian states the percentage of SC/ST/OBC is about 30-35%. In south India its reverse.
quite true and in north india this number got inflated after reservations came into being, people changed caste to get jobs/education more easily.
I disagree. One has to look at private sector in india. no one gives a rats ass about what your caste is but if you can do the job regarding disintegration in india is not a caste based issue. The disintegration potential is high only in 2 regions NE(highly tribal and has more to do with that) and kashmir(its tied to pakistan) Even that is quite low. It has to do w/ a certain degree of federalism. IMNHO that should be increased.
This is NOT TRUE. In North Indian states the percentage of SC/ST/OBC is about 30-35%. In south India its reverse.
Oh no? The percentage of dwijas (brahmins, ksatriyas, baniyas) is approx.15% India-wide (5% perhaps in South India) The percentage of scheduled castes and tribes 25%; the remainder OBCs and MBCs. I do agree that the OBC category needs to be reconsidered because there are many powerful castes (like Nairs, Gounders) on the list who don’t deserve reservations. We’ll see how it plays out.
Here are atanu deys post on education and reservation matters [link1] [link2] To me increasing access to education is the only situation and i see a slow march towards it.
I am not too sure of how relevant the issue of caste is atleast amongst everyday youth in the cities. Personally i have never encountered any situation when we meet new people and caste was a part of the introductions. Unless it is obvious, the questions would most likely be something like are you a gujju, mallu, bong etc. Anyways in a city like Bombay where you are all herded like cattle in crowded trains or buses it is just impossible to discriminate on the basis of caste. While i am not denying that if you scratch the surface, there would be a certain affinity to your caste (or community), but discrimination on the basis of caste in cities is almost non existent.
Also when it comes to OBCs, the situation becomes all the more complex, as an OBC in one state can fall under the general category in other and vice versa. There is bitter resentment amongst the SC/STs over reservations to OBCs as well. And in many places the OBC community are far well off in every aspect of social life (like the Yadavs).
The first time I became caste aware was while standing in line for collecting admission forms for engineering colleges. That was when i realised that two of my friends (who were more well off than me, and had scored the same percentage of marks) were OBCs !! The general category queue had around 3000 people, while the reserved category queue had about a couple of hundred. There was a mini riot situation in the general category queue with people pushing and shoving and it took nearly 6 hours before i finally managed to get my form, whereas the reserved category window was totally empty by noon. And needless to say, my friends got admission to better colleges whereas I had to be content with a second tier college.
I think everybody agrees that moves like these, just before elections are nothing but votebank politics and at best an attempt to treat the symptoms rather than the disease.
Practically speaking, it will be almost impossible to remove anybody from OBC category (and there are still so many trying to get in), especially the powerful castes; no politician will dare to enforce it.
Not true again. General population in Gujarat is close to 65% (rest is SC/ST/OBC). The highest percentage population of Schedule Tribe population is in Madhya Pradesh state.
I’ve been asked by people in the West what my ‘title’ is – generally first-genners, though. When travelling in India, I was also asked repeatedly what my ‘title’ was. Got to be a caste-laden term. Incidentally, villagers also often asked me my name, but this seemed more designed to find out if I was Muslim or Hindu.
I read somewhere that there was a study of a big slum in Kolkata where they found half the people were Brahmins. There’s dirt-poor Brahmins all over the place. What about the guys pulling rickshaws who have their sacred threads on? Who’s helping them?
This reminds me of the ‘designated group’ category the Canadian government has – visible minorities, women, disabled people etc. I’ve wondered aloud why there isn’t a ‘white trash’ category, because it seems to me that white trash is the most neglected, underprivileged group around. Meanwhile, rich well-educated Indo-Canadians are oppressed and need help.
I never knew this until a few days back. But apparently i am an OBC in Kerala, but not in Maharasthra.
Anyways, I would really like somebody to explain this concept of reservations to me and where is it going to end. Shouldnt more focus be on reaching out to the truly under privileged and making sure everybody has access to primary and secondary education so that the playing field is levelled. I am not sure how much money or resources are needed to prepare for the IIT/IIM examinations. In JEE or CAT a student is just a roll number. A roll number has no caste or creed. Thats the way the things should be. The bulk of the OBC students that I have studied with, were no different from the general category. And even though i havent been in an IIT or IIM, i have heard from a lot of friends that candidates who come in through the quota system cannot cope up with the immense pressure and eventually drop out (This is purely anecdotal, i think IIT alumni here can throw more light on this).
And so the question is, where does this end ?? What if they dont get jobs after graduating ?? In the course of creating a casteless society, employers coming in to IITs/IIMs will have to ask candidates what their caste is. What then ?? Introduce reservations in the private sector as well ??
RC:
http://tinyurl.com/kbfkq
Whats a title? I am curious… What do they say to you in other languages It seems like a indian english evolution…. Back in the brit days a title was given to you by them Sir, Dame, Rai Bahadur, Khan Bahadur etc I never heard the use of title in any other context.
Regarding brahmins being poor that is true in UP/Bihar. Did not know if that was the case in bengal. Brahmins were hired as cooks in UP Bihar by well to do family. It had to do with them having the image as being neat freaks of sort…. I dont know if that is still the case…
Hmm MP even including chattisgarh etc I would have thought NE states like arunachal/mizoram may be the lead on that. We are talking %age of population not absolute numbers right?
Not quite sure what ‘title’ meant either (it was asked in English) – but I think it had something to do with the old jamindari system. Anyone else know? In Bengali, from what I recollect, I was only asked what my last name was. But I was always asked, everywhere, what my last name was.
My maternal grandfather’s family had a Brahmin cook. He couldn’t have been too well-off – he had a large family living somewhere else too.