I was looking at the photos from the recent Bhangra Blowout [thanks Amardeep] and was struck by the non-desi dancers in the photos. What confuses me is why I’m surprised at all.
Growing up, NYC was a giant thali of different cultural practices. Black kids did Kung Fu and Lion Dances, Chinese Americans breakdanced and rapped. Culture wasn’t “apna,” it was for anybody willing to put the time in to learn. I probably did as much Irish and Israeli folk dancing (yes, I’m a dork) as a kid as I did Punjabi folk dancing. I should be no more surprised to see a non-Punjabi, non-desi, dancing Bhangra than I am surprised to see a non-Latino doing Salsa, or a non-Korean doing Tae Kwan Do.
Still, I’m not used to it, and I think that other desis are even less used to it than I am. We tend to snark a lot about white people doing puja or yoga, criticizing their pronunciation, saying that they don’t somehow grok the soul of the practice. Well guess what – it’s not going to stop there and we ABCDs are hypocrites if we’re affronted. Let’s be honest, many of us sit here and learn the words to Hindi songs phonetically, just like the non-desi next to us. We’re cosmopolitan, not essentialist, in all other aspects of our lives.
We’re just scared that if somebody else can do these things, these things that we associate with our homes, cook our food, speak our languages, worship our God(s), dance our dances, sing our songs, as well as we can or better that we’ll lose our distinctiveness. That’s understandable but dumb.
Yes, I’m better at dancing Bhangra than most non-desis, but that doesn’t mean that I have the rhythms of Punjab in my veins, just a bit more practice than some. At the end of the day, it’s about talent and enthusiasm, not ancestry (and I cringe equally when I see most non-Punjabi desis dancing Bhangra). It just takes a little while to get used to the fact that these things are now … public, and open to all.
Related posts: White girls in Brooklyn appropriate Saraswati
In other words, why should non-desis bear any more burden for excellence than a desi does? Consider Jai Uttal – would we have ever mentioned him if he had been a desi? Heck, he might even have been mentioned in a positive context as an ABCD for this “efforts” – take a look at his resume:
I’m not a fan, but he’s no worse than most desi cross-over artists I’ve heard, in the middle, producing stuff that doesn’t do it for me. We would hardly subject a similarly sounding desi artist to as scathing a working over as he got in the comments here. [Now that you’re in Bombay, sample the average Bhajan, or better yet, the average commercialized Hindu devotional music and tell me whether he’s within one standard deviation of it in quality]
The existence of two standards – one for outsiders (must be as good as Nina Paley) and one for “insiders” (vedy nice beta, you are so good! Keep practicing, vedy nice!) – proves my point.
Every team, with a non-brown dancer, gets extra points. Plus they are so specific and correct in their dance steps, its worth it to have them. And who doesnt like punjabi music?
Following up on an earlier comment referencing Anthony Appiah’s “Cosmopolitanism,” a hefty excerpt from the book is here.
He argues that “traditional culture” isn’t something you can put walls around, roughly along the lines of Manish’s “competence shines” eclecticism.
Question for Jai and other UK readers: In reference to Ennis’s statement in the original post (that culture wasn’t ‘apna’)… do you guys in the UK use the word ‘desi’ for Indians/South Asians, or do you say ‘apne’? I seem to recall when I visited that everyone said ‘apne’ all the time. ‘Desi’ was used as an adjective, like ‘desi daru’, but when describing people, it was always ‘apne’. For example, one might ask “Is that person a gora?” and the answer might be “No he’s an apna”.
i agree with ennis…
it’s great to think/believe its ‘you’ and not ‘we’….but its usually “I”
The other componenet is not when someone shines, but when someone sucks and we applaud anyway. if you suck you suck regardless of your ethnicity. its one thing i don’t like about pop culture that’s heavily influenced by priviledge….of any kind. For example in Hip Hop nothing gets me more than hearing poor lyrics and bad flow….it sucks to think the only reason this guy is up on the mic is he knows someone or whatever
Amitabh,
Re: the Desi vs Apna question.
These days my Indian friends tend to be the type who don’t use such slang in their normal conversations, so I’m afraid I can’t really comment accurately on which term is more common here in the UK; however, when I was at university (about 10 years ago), the term “apna/apne” was much more frequent. The only time I heard someone use the word “desi”, it involved some particularly badmaash friends of mine at the time, who would ogle some passing hot South Asian girl and comment “Hey look, there’s that desi again.”
Perhaps BongBreaker, Sunny, or other UK-based SMers could shed some light on the Desi vs Apna controversy 😉
I apologize for my ignorance but what does “apna/apne” mean? I’ve never heard the word used
It’s a Punjabi word and means “ours” – basically people of our own background/culture.
Andrea — I don’t look down on Those Girls(tm), so please feel free to send them my way. 😉
Ennis… I applaud you on your post. I have often called how ABCDs interact with one another and with our culture as “the authenticity game.” That is, we’re always trying to prove that the next person has a less authentic claim than we do. Sometimes it feels like we (and perhaps I should say “I”) have such a insecure and myopic grasp of our heritage that we spend our time pulling one another down for not being Indian enough. When I was in college, knowing the Hindi movie canon were the table stakes for accepted Indianness. This insecurity naturally extends to non-desis participating in “our” traditions.
Another thought is perhaps one factor in our reflexive prejudice. We lack an appreciation that there are multiple flavors of “Indian” (or Indian-American for that matter) and many flavors that wouldn’t know a word like an “apna” or even “desi” if it hit them on their heads. Like… our brethren who speak Malyali, Telegu, Tamil etc. Like… our brethren who come from Meghalaya and Arunachal Pradesh…
HitMan, I think you hit the right spot. I wish many of the so-called ABCDs (I use that term specifically for people who play the ‘identity’ game) realized that there is no fixed ‘Indian’ culture. I grew up in middle-class Bombay, but in a fairly sheltered existence, and I don’t relate to most things people would call ‘Indian culture’. I even started seriously on Bollywood after coming to the US, post DCH.
Hell, I wish many Indians understood this thing too. I have plenty of arguments with other people from India who’d like to believe I’m ‘less Indian’ coz I don’t fit into their mould.
My kind of upbringing is commom among lot of people growing up in big cosmopolitan cities in India. Whenever I visited my relatives in Bengal, I felt like a foreigner, and was often treated like one, criticised for my poor Bengali. My parents tried to make me learn and read Bengali when I was a kid, which a totally rejected a few years later.
Even though one’s parents or certain other people might think that way, there is no single defining ‘Indian’ way that you have to follow to be Indian.
Testify, bro.
It means the same in Hindi, and Gujarati too. In Marathi its Aaple/aapla
Sorry about that – never heard it in Hindi and I don’t know Gujarati, so assumed it was Punjabi 🙂
You guys fail to observe one thing. The whitey depicted in the blog on the left actually looks very confused..as in what is going on kinda confused. I mean if you are going to partake in an cultural event, do it with some style. Sorry, but the way he looks in the picture he might as well give up Bhangra.
But did anyone notice the brown guy in front of that whitey..He is a hottie..I think they are both from the yale team.
Fully agreed on abcds and Indian stuff. At the risk of self-promotion, the last post but one on my blog is about a bhangra party in New Zealand. It was certainly … interesting.
Yes ma’am, I most definitely noticed 😉 But about the white guy looking confused, I think the camera just caught him in a bad moment, just like the camera caught his desi teammate in a very good moment. The white guy wouldn’t be up there if he couldn’t dance.
HitMan in #61: I think you nailed it too.
I hope this isn’t a stupid Question. But isn’t Bhangra a punjabi thing, or do people in all parts of india do it.
Traditionally? Bhangra is Punjabi. It went pan-desi in the UK first, as I understand …
Ennis and HitMan — awesome points. I see the “authenticity game” played out a lot in South Asian communities, but I think one of the reasons it gets so harsh is because it’s a question that everyone constantly asks themselves, and feels the burden to prove it.
Jeet:
Now THAT is interesting. Teams are rewarded for having non-desi people? Is it strictly on a race basis? Do you get points for South Asians that aren’t Punjabi? And so is it assumed that it is more work to teach non-desi people and therefore they should be given more credit?
Umm, I hope the original poster was just being funny or sarcastic. Bhangra competitions do not award extra points for non-desi dancers.
Huh… That’s my good friend Brian in the pic on the left!
Technophobicgeek:
This is a long post so please bear with me. I’m not trying to insult or offend you, no disrespect intended, just take this as a discussion. Here goes:
Your post (#62) reinforces my view that people raised in Bombay (Mumbai, whatever) are often just as dislocated from Indian culture and/or their roots as ABCDs are (of course, I’m specifically referring to middle to upper class, English-medium educated people, and specifically those under 35 or so). I’ve met many Bombayites (of the social class under discussion), and perhaps my observations are simply generalisations, but they seem to take a perverse pride in not speaking any Indian language well. It seems many of you take your cultural cues from the Parsis, Catholics, and Anglo-Indians in your midst. From Bombay, I’ve met Punjabis who can’t speak Punjabi, Sindhis who can’t speak Sindhi, Gujaratis who can’t speak Gujarati, and probably most disturbing of all, Maharashtrians who can’t speak Marathi. Needless to say all spoke poor Hindi as well. They all speak beautiful English of course.
Probably most striking of all…NONE of them saw any problem with what I’ve described above. Even the Maharashtrians had no regrets or bad-feelings about their inability to speak fluent Marathi. And they all liked to laugh at ABCDs. Many felt ABCDs were too hard-core into Indian culture, too hyper about religion, language, caste, etc (I’ll agree to the last one, Bombayites have a refreshing absence of caste-mentality). Most Bombayites seem very in love with the word ‘cosmopolitan’ as if any assertion of pride in one’s roots or origins is a statement of extreme parochialism. And most are very happy with themselves, their world-view, and how they were raised (by their city, not necessarily how they were raised by their parents). Simultaneously, as I mentioned, looking down on ABCDs and also on Indians with a more strongly defined regional/language identity). Even though often having less Indian cultural attributes than either of those other two groups. The ultimate irony is they even look down on Maharashtrians (calling them Ghatis and what not) while living on their soil.
I guess what I’m trying to say is, it would be OK for you guys to question your upbringing and attitudes once in a while. Not every stance or viewpoint you guys have is necessarily correct in every instance. Geographically living in India doesn’t mean you’re necessarily less confused (without even realising it) than an ABCD. (PS When I say ‘you’ I don’t specifically mean Technophobicgeek, I mean most Bombaiyites of the social group under discussion).
In my post above, I wasn’t trying to insult Parsis, Catholics, or Anglo-Indians; it’s just that they are three Bombay demographic groups known for their high degree of westernisation, and strong preference for the English language and western culture.
Amitabh,
Thanks for putting it so politely…not often the way I hear it. But the very sentence above is one I’d like to question. Why do YOU (or your social group) get to decide that I am dislocated from Indian culture or ‘roots’? In fact, what gives anyone the right to decide that your definition of Indian culture is canonical?
Also, I do agree that there are a lot of ‘cosmopolitan’ people who do look down upon people from less urban areas or cultures, but in many cases, its not true. And I’ve seen both sides. I went to junior college (Grade 11-12) with a class, many of whom were very very rich kids, far more westernized than I was. Some looked down upon me, some others were quite cool and didn’t care.
Unfortunately, ‘English’ still has connotations of social class among many sections of society in India. But for me, and many people of my generation (not all), it’s just another ‘Indian’ language.
Again, very random statements which have NO basis in fact. I did go to a catholic-church run school, but I know no parsis or anglo-indians personally. And I must inform you that the catholics/christians I knew often spoke far better Konkani/Kannada/Malayalam than I speak Bengali. No, my friend, I don’t think this has anything to do with taking ‘cues’. It is a natural consequence of urbanization and mixing of communities. If I had more Bengalis living around me, I’d probably be doing fine in that language. As simple as that.
some deride cosmopolitanism as rootlessness, but is also something to be proud of. I admit, I do wish sometimes that I spoke/read Bengali better etc, but growing up with every kind of Indian around me has given me a much broader view of India which I often find lacking in people from more regional backgrounds.
As a simple example, when I talk to my highly educated and intellectual friends from Kolkata, I am often horrified at the crude stereotypes and generalizations they make about other Indian communities (Punjabis, Marwaris, Muslims etc). Growing up in Bombay, going to school and college with people of all the above and more communities, I could never ever agree with that. Of course, I end up being accused of being ‘detached’ from Indian culture, but whatever.
I do agree that people can feel rootless even if they are in India and grew up there. I definitely do, sometimes. But then, I remind myself that identity ‘confusion’ is not ‘inherent’, but happens because of what the surrounding world says you should be. It’s the same for a kid growing up in a cosmopolitan city like Bombay, or in the US, the difference is in the specifics. Urban india is its own culture, and it’s just better that it gets accepted, coz it’s there to stay.
uumm…there is no way i can put rednecks and bhangra dancers in the same mental image. besides, it’s better than other things we could be feasting our eyes on, and i’m mesmerized by it. plus, the music itself it just super enjoyable. hoi hoi.
um…it involves male bhangra dancers.
manish is golden.
yeah, he’s ok, he grows on ya. now from penn state, left and middle, (left especially)…….whew…
ah, how it makes me smile everytime my buddy sunny tells me of his permances, and when i see my pal gobind’s pics!
Something people with that kind of negative mindset have to realise is that being Indian is just a matter of ethnic affiliation and (in the case of those possessing Indian citizenship) nationality; it is not a state of intrinsic superiority, either in a moral or a cultural sense.
The latter is the kind of jingoistic, “exclusivist”, supremacist mentality it’s better to stay away from, even though many desis often fall into this trap due to environmental influences and cultural conditioning.
But then, we have laddoos 😉
We have Aishwarya and Celina Jaitley, they have Angelina Jolie and Monica Bellucci…..
We have Amitabh Bachchan, they have Sean Connery…..
We have Russell Peters, they have Jon Stewart…..
We have Benzer, they have Versace…..
We have arranged marriages with wedding nights involving sex between virtual strangers, they have…..er…..one-night-stands involving sex between virtual strangers…..
Potato, potahto 😉
Jai you make “them” look too good.
Nah, I think Jai is right. But does all of that outweigh ladoos?
Not the besan ones.
Potato (or potahto) pakoras …. mmmmmm …..
I mention Angelina Jolie & Monica Bellucci, and all you guys can think about is ‘mithai’ and pakoras.
Priorities, people !
Jai: No, I’m thinking about Monica Bellucci.
Technophobicgeek: Thank you for your thoughtful reply. When I have a little more time later today I’ll respond to what you said (I agree with a lot of it).
Ennis, thank you for perhaps the biggest compliment I’ve ever gotten: settin’ the standard for for culture-appropriation!
Um…Mumbia is in India. It is part of India. Therefore, Mumbia culture is Indian culture, by definition. Sorry to be trite, but this discussion calls to mind the blind men and the elephant.
Did I type Mumbia? Oy vey. Mumbai. Mumbai. “Bombay” is less prone to dyslexic typos. Sigh.
You nailed it! Did I ever tell you I just lurrrv your Sita stuff? Always waiting for more!
ouch. that is a tie.
YUMMMMMMMM…..now we’re getting somewhere!
yeah, some of us know better and would rather take the latter.
Sad truth. (Sorry, I’m just a Bihari gwaw-wallih, so I had to say it 😉 )
or gauw-wallih, however you spell it…
Right said technophobicgeek and NinaP.
People in Jalandhar don’t speak Punjabi because they’re more in touch with their roots – it’s because Jalandhar happens to be overwhelmingly populated by Punjabis.
If anything, urban Indians frequently speak multiple Indian languages – I learned Hindi, Marathi and Sanskrit in school in Bombay (sadly lost most of the latter two but that’s because of America, not Bombay).
Oh and on a recent visit to Bangalore, it wasn’t surprising to note that many people there switched between Hindi, Kannada, Telugu and Tamil. My own parents can read and write Telugu, Hindi and Bengali – THEY grew up in Calcutta, the Bombay of their youth (don’t laugh).
Also Amitabh – bambaiyya ko mat bhulna. It’s 100% Indian! Desi ghee ki bani hui bhasha.
Arrey kya jhakkaas bola, bhidu!
Same goes for Bihar too :p
To The Graduate
Didn’t know we had bloggers down in NZ…yay good for you!
Amitabh : I am Catholic from Bombay and I speak fluent Konkani..as do most of my cousins and co-religionist friends..
And I don’t know about others, but I speak Bambaiyya out of choice..I did learn shudh sanskritised Hindi in school and can speak it if I want…but Bambaiyya is how we express ourselves yaar…we are like this only….
As for Westernization among Catholics..I don’t think it was any more or less than the other communities in my school or college..Hindu/Muslim/Parsi/Sikh whatever…that’s just Bombay culture I guess..in that sense Bombay is different from the rest of India…
I tend to agree with your points about our attitudes towards ABCDs …
techno, SMR : great points bhailog..I think Bambaiyya ought to get some kind of official language status yaar…like ebonics did…
Nina P: I would go further to say that Bombay culture defines much of India’s pop culture via Bollywood, TV, Music …
from a lurker – I have also been wondering about the word desi – I asked my husband about it and he had never heard of it (Punjabi Hindu born and raised in UK). Is he just on the wrong side of 35, or is this a word used by the older generation as well?
I’m white and from the U.S., but my husband’s mum and aunties love dressing me up in saris and salvar kameez, etc, for parties. I like it too, but have often felt a little awkward about how younger people might view me… who does that white girl think she is?? etc… Well, it can’t be helped as I can hardly say no.
As for culture, my husband is very proud of his heritage, but he hasn’t got a clue about most religious things, can speak only basic Punjabi, and could probably only name 5 or less of the very top, most iconic film stars of India. I’m sure he would say he is just as Indian as any other foreign-born Indian, though! Having said this, we try our best with our children, but it is sad that their Indian heritage is going to be so “watered down” (if you want to say it this way) that all they will pass down to their own children (unless they marry Indian girls) are a handful of Punjabi expressions (several rude), an enthusiasm for dhal chohl and “curry pockets” (this is what they call eating Indian food with roti), and, stretching it, perhaps the occasional rukhri – ?. So far, they do not even want to visit India, because they know it involves injections… 🙁 they are age 6 and 11 now.
On the up side, they are reaping the benefits of Asian family values!!! They are much closer to my husband’s parents than to my parents.
Re: “Outsiders are especially likely to be made into figures of fun, when they are being earnest.”
My husband’s family have all had a lot of fun with the story of me going into an Indian restaurant (by myself) and proudly saying to the waiter that my water was “gunda panni” (dirty water), when I was trying to show off my Punjabi and say “tunda panni” (cold water). I have had to retell the story for company more than once… but it is all in fun… 🙂
I did once consider taking Punjabi lessons (in the UK) but was put off by the thought that some young UK-born Punjabis might find my presence off-putting. Who knows… maybe I should have just gone for it! Probably more worrying over nothing…
This is a great blog – I did get the April Fool’s joke, by the way… after all the blog posts blasting those “exotic” newspaper articles and book reviews, how could I miss the exotic terms liberally sprinkled throughout that fake travel ad… Should I be teaching my children this term, “Desi”?
In Britland they call ’em Asians or British Asians.