Stories about marriage in which South Asian women are treated like property, used as a means to obtain money, married off at the tender age of twelve, or attacked by their in-laws, understandably generate certain feelings, including shock, anger, disbelief, and sadness. Another expected reaction might be to think that these incidents occur on the fringes of a society: in an “old school” world that should be increasingly marginalized and whose degrading and stereotypical practices need to be exposed as such.
Categorizing these stories in this way not only stigmatizes certain vestiges of the “old school,” but also places or elevates the critic into a different world, a “modern,” “civilized,” or “Western,” one in which specific qualities — such as individual choice and gender equity — are at a premium. But, while disassociating one’s self from the old school has its psychological benefits, it would be a mistake to think that the women born and raised in the West are free of humiliation in the marriage or courtship process.
Recently, I have been reading a blog called British Born Confused Desi (BBCD). The author describes herself as:
a Londoner who has her foundations firmly rooted in her Pakistani heritage. I face a constant state of confusion as I battle between trying to be a good Pakistani girl and a modern British woman.
She writes candidly of her experiences as a prospective bride. Her posts give the impression that she is an unwilling participant in a draft, where the male suitor and his family thinks they have the final say as to whether they want to select this “free agent” girl.
My folks have a family coming over to see me tomorrow, I hate doing things the traditional way. It really is a meat market situation and for some reason the “boy side” always seem to think that its their meat to buy. [Link]
And when the family eventually came to “view” BBCD:
Today after a very long time I was made to feel like a piece of meat…. . We got on pretty well for a first meeting.. His mother on the other hand spent two hours staring at me making me feel so uncomfortable, I dont think she liked me at all, Im quiet sure that i was too “modern” for her. His father didnt smile at me even once, i think both the parents have been on a course as too how to intimidate a person…. Anyway as per usual in our silly community system of arrange marriages, lets just wait and see what “they” say. At least with last weekends bunch I wasn’t interested in him at all. [Link]
It is convenient to think of certain problems with marriage as confined to sectors of life that one does not inhabit or frequent. But, BBCD, who feels like chattel, could be my friend, neighbor, or colleague – not the resident of some pind, or village. I shudder to think how many other women in our “modern,” “civilized,” or “Western” society have experiences similar to BBCD’s – experiences that should be addressed, even if they are not as graphic or inconceivable as the four stories above.
Technophobicgeek,
I thought I should say a few friendly words in response to a couple of your previous posts on this thread.
This also affects a lot of desis born in the West too (both male and female). Nevertheless, if you keep a clear head and your motivations are sincere, you’ll learn the “right way” to go about things.
You will, however, have to “unlearn”/”de-condition” yourself from many desi attitudes and ways of thinking which are deemed perfectly acceptable and “normal” back in India (and indeed amongst some quarters of 1st & 2nd-Generation NRI society in the West), both with regards to attitudes towards women and preconceptions about romantic relationships in general. But based on your reaction to those people boasting about the “300-400 biodata” issue, it sounds like you’re heading in the right direction anyway 😉
Conversely, you will also have to figure out which Western notions in popular culture are false/misguided in this matter, too. Direct personal experience in romantic matters helps this process, of course.
Believe me it does indeed exist — but you have to be the right person, with the right person, and for the right reasons. In any case, despite stereotypes and present appearances to the contrary, this isn’t just a “Western ideal” — it’s very much a fundamental human thing. Plus this notion has existed in the Indian subcontinent too, as indicated by various historical accounts along with “legends” eg. Heer-Ranjha etc. And of course, much of the Hindi film industry has been based on this notion for the last 50+ years 😉
I may be stating the obvious, and my apologies if I’ve misunderstood you, but one cannot (indeed should not) marry a woman just for her looks. “Real love” isn’t just about physical attraction or what you “think” of her (again, despite the desi Bollywood stereotype) — it goes far beyond that and it happens to a great extent in ways out of one’s control.
Jai writes: >>If the “kid” does not have the maturity, intelligence, and common sense to make the “correct choice”, then that person is not enough of an “adult” to be married full-stop.
Abhi would disagree. But then he’s never worked for the Ministry of Marriages.
M. Nam
JoaT,
There was actually an entire episode of Two and a Half Men devoted to this concept, where Charlie Sheen’s character ends up being on the receiving end of a defamatory website dedicated to horror stories about him by his various past girlfriends.
MoorNam,
A person with a dysfunctional marriage going to a wedding purely as a guest, or seeking to lecture others on the secrets of a successful and healthy marriage, are 2 different and separate concepts.
Jai,
Unless of course, he was the cause of the the dysfunctional marriage…
M. Nam
Hmmm…I have successfully turned this thread into a therapy session for myself.
Jai, thanks for the kind words. Appreciate it.
That’s part of the problem. Bollywood love (pre-DCH) is so fantasy. In India, you grow up with the idea that this “love-shuv happens only in movies and fairy tales, not in life”. Until I moved to the US, I thought the same about Western society too. At the risk of sounding silly, it was part of culture shock to see how seriously the west actually takes romantic love as a real-life phenomenon.
Oh well, hopefully I’m not just chasing a mirage. We’ll see. Thanks for listening, folks!
bytewords
But with the rich ones—if you were a parent in India and you had a kid whose every whim had to be fulfilled by you, would you trust the kid to make the correct choice in marriage?
Part of the “contract” was that they married somone of their parent’s choice in any case. I think all of my friends did–and the one’s I’ve kept in touch with seem fairly happy.
I don’t think that people “evolve” to love marriages. There is nothing particularly enlightened about them. I think people who choose arranged marriages are generally quite happy. They view marriage as a partnership and as a “home” for their children. Whereas the love marriage ideologues go on searching for that “very special feeling,” which is elusive for many or (being cynical) most. Those who wax rapturously about love are the ones who are not yet married. Either type can work or not work. There are abusive “lovers” too, lets not forget.
MoorNam,
I think you’ve misunderstood my point. Such an individual would only be morally “in the wrong” if he decided to lecture others on how to create a successful marriage (unless he had learned from his own mistakes and was therefore telling people what they shouldn’t do, based on his own example).
Simply being at someone’s wedding as a guest does not fall into this category.
Green Angel,
The answer to the question, “Are you a virgin?” is always, ALWAYS, “No I’m not, big boy – and if you take me out back, I’ll show you how Desi’s do it in Honda Accords!”. That ought to scare the wanker away.
Peace, g
Technophobicgeek,
That’s a basic part of the problem — people can be excessively cynical about this. Which has 2 effects (amongst others):
Young people may have unnecessarily low expectations of what constitutes a really good romantic relationship — in terms of chemistry, compatibility, intimacy and so on. Hence people sometimes “compromising” a little too much in a number of areas — because they think that anything “more” is an unrealistic fairytale.
People from the older/parents’ generation may neither understand nor believe in the reality of genuine romantic love with regards to their (adult) children — this intergenerational culture clash is a major cause of many of the problems in this area amongst desis living in the West.
I agree with you about the pre-DCH notion of romantic love often being highly unrealistic (DCH is one of my all-time favourite Indian films, by the way wink). “True love” can indeed be possible, but the real-life experience is quite different to what is often portrayed in the Indian (and some quarters of the Western) media. Not inferior by any means — in fact, if you’re lucky, it’s far beyond what you expect — but different.
And no, you’re not chasing a mirage…..But bear in mind what I said about being the right guy, with the right woman, for the right reasons. That’s the key to the whole thing 😉
You seem like a good guy anyway and, again in response to the 300-400-biodata example, you appear to have the requisite level of sensitivity towards women and relationships, so I do hope you manage to find the right person for you. I’m sure she’s out there somewhere.
And of course, not to mention the number of times I get to hear from my (primarily white) American and European friends or colleagues: “You Indian men all rape your wives” and things like that. Does that happen to other guys here? I used to be pretty unambiguously sympathetic to the kind of opinions in the article above, but I am not willing to be accused of being a rapist. I still can’t describe how much that hurts and it’s pushed me back to a defensive stance.
Man! What kind of industry do you work in? You are describing some pretty outrageous conduct. Did you confront these people? Dont let them run all over ya buddy.
Dude, that f’ed up! How can you even refer to these American/European guys as friends? And if its your colleagues, I would say something to them and if it continues, you are looking at the definition of a hostile work environment. No need to be defensive. Stand up for yourself and stick it to them.
ROFLMAO….omg that was the funniest thing I’ve read all day.
its not just a woman who may feel like chattel in these situations. this also can happen with the guys, who are appraised and valued based on random things. not only random things, but things that in the end are just jokes Particularly as I wonder how many women in the US go about choosing men in a similiar fashion. Most desi-american women are not more similiar to Auntie Bachhiter in Malerkotla….but all of a sudden when it comes to picking a life partner they think thats the way to go. Like, huh?
😉 probably
If the woman really wanted to freak the guy out, she could respond to the virgin question by leaning back in her seat, crossing her legs to reveal a large expanse of thigh, then suddenly lighting up a cigarette and huskily smirking “For you, baby…..I could be.”
(Adding “Now run home to your mother !” optional of course.)
damn jai, that was pretty good
There are two different bits to ‘arranged’ marriage here — the parental introduction service and the parental evaluation service. The first isn’t so bad, but the second is awful. Why would a man or woman want to be evaluated by their potential mother-in-law? You’re not marrying the mother.
But outside of that my experience with desi uncles, aunties, H1Bs, FOB types have been anything but pleasant. I even had some guys come up to me and ask who’s the “gori”, not knowing she was wifey. Some of the reactions are just plain hilarious.
My wife happens to be white too, but I have to say that the average bong (from west- bengal) reaction varies from north-Indian ones. Bongs–and even fob types– on an average (note, on average) appear to be far more “normal” and cool about it (perhaps b/c intermarriage rates among bongs is very high) than the average–again, note, average– north Indian (UP, Bihar, Rajasthan, Punjab, Gujrat)response a minority of which are plain distasteful.
We have a healthy mix of North, East, West and South Indians where I live. I can safely say that prejudice truly has no boundaries.
70 yup. 🙂
@eddie, 57: definitely. couldn’t agree more on that part.
BeigeSeige:
I find it sad that I am the “first” as you say to date an IIT FOB! Too many stereotypes out there…but I guess they are there for a reason (few bad apples spoiled the whole bunch!). I can’t think of any other abcd girl who is about to get hitched to a fob, let alone an IIT fob. Yes, he has an accent. Yes, there are times when I question his clothing sense. Those as we know are superficial issues, which can easily be changed. 🙂 When it comes to the male chauvenistic stereotypes, I don’t see a sliver of it in him (fingers crossed). In fact, I found him, as compared to abcd men (now i’m not generalizing, just making an observation!) much more caring and family oriented, PLUS interested in my career as a future lawyer. The abcd guys I’ve dated were admittingly more “romantic” in terms of flowers etc on valentines day etc., but i got so sick of the weekends spent at the bars and every event preceding with a round of drinks! Plus the conversations were extremely shallow, like “ooh i gotta get my haircut” and “isn’t this shirt awesome!” and the plans for the next weeks party or some gossip. That stuff is fun too, but I guess I needed more substance. But again, I’m sure I just haven’t ran into the right ABCD guy!
My fellow abcd girlfriends look at me in awe every time i mention where he is from. in fact, when i mentioned that i am considering having his mom move in w/us in 2 years, they were shocked. but i figure…respect is earned…and if he stands up for me in the event of any problems then it’s fine. also, i want babies AND a job as a lawyer, so free nanny help with grandma!! call me selfish or what.
oh well…sometimes i wonder what the hell i’m doing, but i’m just following my gut, and not what everyone else believes is the right thing to do.
Technophobicgeek:
Hehe I’ll keep the lookout for ya amongst my fellow abcd girlfriends. 🙂
Mouspad maurader:
Ugh I’m sure she does get “looks” worse than me! My boyfriend (IIT FOB) has a friend who’s white wife is always mistaken for a gori girlfriend that the guy must be just messing around with. When he tells them she’s his WIFE, they are suprised and even have the nerve to get ANGRY at his choice!
Dhaavak:
Sigh this list is too long i can’t reply to everyone and i have class soon so forget it. But i’m sure i liked whatever u said hehe. Oh yeah Chikki is the peanut chikki that you find in india (sort of like peanut brittle). I love that shit.
Well, they’re usually women. Mostly a bit of the feminist/intellectual types and fellow grad students. I usually tell them off, but can’t really blame them. Most of them are pretty well-read, get their ideas from the American media (which loves to focus on the negatives in India), the desi Divakaruni-type chick-lit and the internet blogs like the BBCD one. They just imagine India to be this horrible place for women where men are free to do whatever they want with legal/social sanction.
For instance, the National Geographic had a very recent issue on the Chemical basis of love. Part of that article compared the western with the Indian notion of love. Predictably, it had some Indian feminist-type explaining how arranged marriage was “society-sanctioned rape”. I read that part in a bookstore and stopped reading that issue.
Another instance, BoingBoing reports the BNP blogathon on eve-teasing as follows
I dunno about you, but this does seem like an overly generalized statement to me.
That’s kinda the reason why part of me cringes now whenever I read this kind-of blog articles, including the recent BNP blogathon. I am all for women’s rights and all cessation of sexual harrassment in India, but I also feel that Indian men end up being at the receiving end of the stereotypes in the west. After 3-4 such negative experiences with people I know, I am not so sure what these efforts achieve.
techno i think you’re making too much of a passing comment. everyone gets generalizations set up about them. i doubt the people you’re speaking too honestly believe that sort of thing; thats like baboon-level knowledge
“I find it sad that I am the “first” as you say to date an IIT FOB! Too many stereotypes out there…”
an ABCD college mate of mine swore vehemently they would never marry a fellow ABCD, much less an FOB (quelle horror!). they recently married an FOB. another ABCD guy showed total indifference to his parents’ culture and rebelled against them by dating only caucasian american girls (usually the “bad girl” stereotype). he ended up marrying an abcd from a fairly conservative family and they now have two kids and are happy. it’s a strange world.
Oh but now Ikram…are you desi? Because a desi chick marries a man and his parents and whole family yeah no matter how progressive. Not that I’d want to be evaluated by potential MILs (and I have) but if my parents are going to be part of the “approval” process to a certain degree, why can’t his? 🙂
Sahej, my wife had a desi prof from W.Bengal, for her Woman’s Studies class (or some course by that name) in her undergrad at Wesleyan. This prof who was born and brought in W Bengal painted a very bleak picture for women in India – women treated as secondary citizens/slaves, beat up and raped regularly, forcefully married at a younger age with no education and only allowed to do household work and bear children for her husband. The scary part is that this prof is a very respected individual in that field. Westerners have this bad impression of Indian society partly because some desis (like above mentioned prof) contribute to it.
My wife says that when she went to India (along with her mom) she had more lurid comments, catcalls and other sexual solicitations directed at her than anywhere else in the world. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that an average Indian considers a western woman, easy or something. Also I have heard other western women narrate similar experiences when they travelled to India. I suspect some countries in the Middle East might actually be worse when it comes to such harassment, but I dont know a lot of women who travel to the Middle East alone anymore. I do know that Egypt is pretty bad and still receives a lot of tourists. Now that I think about it, Japan might be the worse nation for a white woman to travel to with or without a male companion. You just cannot ride the subway in Japan, without hordes of lascivious men pinching grabbing away with impunity. From anecdotal evidence, it seems to me that white women get harassed more than other women when they travel to Asia or the Middle East. Maybe there is a world wide perception of white women being easy.
Janeofalltrades Because a desi chick marries a man and his parents and whole family yeah no matter how progressive
Jane, it’s possible to fight the power.
I hope.
Now that I think about it, Japan might be the worse nation for a white woman to travel to with or without a male companion. You just cannot ride the subway in Japan, without hordes of lascivious men pinching grabbing away with impunity.
My wife dances Kathak. She said when she went to Japan with her company, many of the locals thought they were a traveling harem. One old guy, all hotted up, said to the girls “you byoootu!” and scampered after them with open arms. Brown women can be quite popular too.
One old guy, all hotted up, said to the girls “you byoootu!” and scampered after them with open arms. Brown women can be quite popular too.
You are probably right. I just dont know of any brown women who have travelled alone to Japan.
Amfd, I’m not sure. I spent a few weeks in Japan (Kobe and Tokyo) a few years ago on vacation and felt v. safe riding the subway by myself. And this is a country where I’m very obviously an outsider and have absolutely no grasp on the language. There are cars specifically for women, and that rule is obeyed.
I felt far less safe traveling as a single female in India. Where we’re from it’s v. unusual to see a woman walking alone, especially after dark.
well, this thread has taken a life of its own. it is good since, if you care to click on the blog that started it all, she is not very thrilled at us :). though she is amused for sure.
http://bbcdesi.blogspot.com/
such is life.
78 Al_Mujahid_for_debauchery
Again it is a generalization about that part of the world. I happened to see a teenaged kid (one of two lads) show his fly to the group of photography students I travelled with in Pompei, Italy. The group had 3 guys and 10 girls and I know who it was directed to. So these type of hassasments happen all over the world but I surely don’t condone it.
Ah but then wheres the fun in that? 🙂 We are experts at balancing relatives/parents/cultural baggage. What’s a MIL huh? Just another relative to juggle.
@jane, #85 just another relative to juggle, eh? try my family. half of anyone will drive you mad :).
Aww bytewords…where’s the positivity? I can handle insanity 🙂 I’m fairly insane myself so I can relate.
@janeofalltrades that was so nice of you that i would have asked for your number. but they dont let requests for celebrity contact infos in comments. damn! life is unfair. 😉
My experience with this whole thing. I finished school and got a job making good amount of money. So it was time for the “next step.” Well, I for one wasn’t ready and wanted to finally have some fun. But the thing that made a lot of sense to me was that i didn’t go and see any girl or her family. E-mails would come(from one of my parents) with a prospective girls pic with some sentence about what the girl was all about. The idea was that if I found anyone interesting, i could e-mail the girl myself and get the ball rolling. The things that made it work. 1. Absolutely no pressure. Very important, parents give the info to your kids and get out of the way. 2. gave me and the girls some room to figure out who we really are and if we were compatable for each other. It wasn’t all that easy tho. Things that were difficult. 1. You are talking to someone you’ve never seen before or know what its all about. 2. I found the sentences about the girl that accompanies the pic were often dead wrong. Thanks usually to embelishments from the girls parents/withholding info they know would eliminate any chance that i would initiate the conversation. would I do it again? Yes i would. Did i feel like it was a meat market? Any and all kind of courtship to a certain extent is like a meat market, depending on your perspective.
i lurve how personal these comments get. dave, i think there is a lack of communication in understanding how a woman and/or man feels in these situations. i have even gotten sucked into these talks with my parents and have dealt with a lot of guilt and honor for selecting my life partner. and quite honestly, i never thought i would deal with the situation the way i did.
but, at the end of the day, it is YOUR life not parents. and several people have issues saying and believing that especially in a community/culture where we are expected to think in terms of our parents’ well-being. all of it is good, except when a woman feels like property. when a male feels like he can’t get married to his love because she is gori. or when people end up in situations of unpleasant desires.
can somebody explain what ROFLMAO stands for?
peace.
ROFLMAO – Rolling on the Floor Laughing my Ass Off
also, what is AFAIK and IMO, please? thanks
AFAIK – As far as I know
IMO – In my opinion
Wow, I feel so smart. LOL. (Laugh out Loud)
dc desi, sk, I had the hardest time figuring all these out, but a great places to look up IM slang is Urban Dictionary
For the most part, parents want to see everything work out well for their kids. My (british) mum said that their was a sense of completion. When I get married, it means that her job is done.
Arranged marriages give parents something to do in this last stage of raising their children.
To the guys who bitch about the women who bitch about the process, but go along with it:
You speak as if it would be easy for these women to turn their backs on their families. Would you find it easy?
Thanks to TechnoPhobicGeek for giving me some perspective on what Indians in NA deal with in terms of stereotypes about their beliefs, behaviour etc. Don’t let the bastards get you down.
I’m a CBCD who was recently in a long relationship with a white guy (now it’s over). He lived in India with me for a year. Interestingly, my Dad really embraced him. My mother, who was the ‘hip’ one(my parents are divorced), and has dated white men herself, turned into the nightmarish, possessive, domineering Indian parent of legend when she realized the relationship was serious. Her and my relationship has not recovered and I try to communicate with her as little as possible. Unfortunately my ex-boyfriend thought that I ‘chose her over him’ in various circumstances, which put a lot of strain on our relationship. At heart, I do blame her in part for the death of a precious relationship.
To tie this into the BBCD blog, the personal price for ‘standing up for yourself’ can be pretty steep.
The female activists “Rani et al” are making it sound like murder or rape. No Indian parent I have seen has gotten a daughter married without her consent. Arranged marriage is not wrong in itself. It can be praticed in a wrong way if one chooses to, much like say religion. Does that make religion bad.
What about the couple, one person Indian, one person Caucasian, very much in love, but the Indian parents absolutely will not even consider their marriage? The Indian parents demand that their son have an arranged marriage even though he refuses. Now the parents are insisting he chose between the parents he loves and the love of his life. Is this fair?
Never knew that the average FOB was a cut above the IIT FOB on the ABD screen. You learn something new everyday!