I recently debated the future of Bollywood among American desis with a couple of second genners who aren’t fans of the cinema. ‘Asoka’ thinks assimilation will make Bollywood irrelevant in the U.S. desi community, because the movies are poorly-written. I argue improvements in quality, distribution and filtering point to a bright future. The ever-reasoned ‘Birbal’ split the difference. Names have been changed to protect them from the Bollyfans who walk among us.
| ‘Asoka’ Bollywood will vanish among desi Americans |
“I‘ll bet you $20 it doesn’t change. U.S. desis, especially the new generations, are more assimilated. They (and I’m one of them) will never be into Bollywood. I view Bollywood as an example of the excesses and frivolity of our culture and not something I am interested in preserving for myself or my offspring. I can count the number of friends I have that like Bollywood films on one finger (men and women)… even the girls I know don’t like Bollywood, and I have as many if not more female friends than male friends.
“The U.S. model will never mimic the UK model unless we start forming ethnic ghettos here. If that happens then I think you’ll be right. What it comes down to is that most Bollywood stories suck by western standards. Production value means nothing when the best Bollywood film would be a C-list Western film.
“The reason that smart Bollywood commentary is lacking is because there isn’t much coming out of Bollywood that can be considered smart… The last Hindi film I saw was Mr. and Mrs Iyer, which I thought was decent. The last Bollywood film I saw was in India and Toral from The Apprentice was in it. I’ve seen Devdas and KKKG and thought they were so bad I wanted to rip my eyeballs out. The only Bollywood film I actually liked was Kuch Kuch Hota Hai, and by American movie standards it was just okay… Yes, if you are [non-desi] it is exotic and quaint…
“I go to [Indian film festivals]… they have some great Hindi language film and Tamil language films. I both enjoy them and would take my kids to see them someday. They are not, however, Bollywood films, which in my view tend to advocate materialism and shallowness, bigotry against other races, and bigotry in their representation of 2nd gen Indians living abroad. For those reasons I would not expose my children to Bollywood films.
“I still think it’s about the ghettos. We will see in 10 years. I think if you [polled] under-26 Sepia Mutiny readers, they [would] overwhelmingly be non-Bollywood watchers.”
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| ‘Birbal’ Bollywood will spread, but I’m not a fan |
“I‘m not a fan of Bollywood at all. Even Lagaan, which was supposed to be a good film, wasn’t as good as most mediocre western movies I’ve seen, and I like movie musicals and emo…
“I watch movies with subtitles, but I’ve never seen a great Bollywood film. The best was – OK, entertaining, sort of like a mediocre big budget blockbuster in the US. At the best, we’re talking around Pirates of the Caribbean level…
“That said, I think [Asoka] is wrong at judging the audience… [The young] know much about Bollywood. I actually see this increasing, since the younger generation grew up with Zee TV on the satellite, while we did not.
“I went to see Lagaan with two American women, Bollywood is the new Chinese cinema for lots of hip urbanites. They see it as exotic and quaint, still it’s making inroads…”
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Manish |
Bollywood’s popularity among U.S. desis will increase. We know this empirically.
Part of why desi Americans don’t watch Bollywood is distribution and filtering. There isn’t any decent theater nearby, so you only get crappy, pirated videotapes. And you have no friends who watch, so you don’t know which one movie every few months is decent.
But the future points to more Bolly in the U.S. In the UK you have broad distribution of Hindi films at mainstream cineplexes, you don’t need to drive an hour. Same in some cities in Canada. Same will happen here, it’s inevitable. Birbal nails it, distribution is way up among younger desis with 4-8 desi satellite channels and movie downloads online. My youngest brother got into Bollywood via the Net and female friends who watch. Lots of desi college girls are very into Bollywood, with posters all over their walls.
It’s really, qualitatively different seeing an official print on a big screen vs. a 3rd-gen pirated copy at home — the colors, the sharpness, the sound. It’s 3x better an experience. A lot of the technical quality flaws are due to the medium in which you’re seeing it.
Yes, there are only a handful of smart, original movies, three to four a year. Going randomly without filtering (like I sometimes do 
) is going to waste your time. Those three to four totally rock, though, and those who miss them are missing out in a big way, not just for the movies themselves but also for the cultural landmarks they become. It’s like missing Star Wars when it first came out, or Born on the Fourth of July, or Munich. Bonus: they invariably star attractive desis.
Also, this is a moving target. Someone who timed out on this three years ago would have dismissed the huge upshift in slickness that just happened (slick CGI and cut screens, better acting, adventurousness in screenplays, physically fit actors), just like if you dismissed India three years ago you would’ve missed all the Baristas, highways, ATMs and shopping malls.
Bollywood is the love that dare not speak its name. In the U.S. it’s largely a female phenomenon among second-genners, and the only guys who even realize it’s there are those who hang out with women and their female friends. People don’t talk a lot of Bollywood on SM in part because that’s what Sulekha and friends are for.
Yes, there’s a much higher percentage of poorly-written stories in cinema of a less developed country. You go through consumerism and cheese before you get to restraint and irony. But those 3-4 a year are neither C-list in the U.S. nor A-list. They’re something you can’t get in American cinema. At all. They’re like gelato in Italy or fireworks in London or deep dish pizza in Chicago, they’re in a league of their own. Western films are ridiculously unadventurous with emotion. They’re the Keanu Reeves of global cinema. And I don’t yet know whether Asoka is in the 95% who lack distribution and filtering, or the hardcore 5% who don’t like emo cinema.
Also, they’re all subtitled now, and it’s not a monolithic category any more. Instead of just romance and action, there’s now horror, sci-fi, artier flicks and so on. A new film out, Zinda, is a rip of an edgy Korean movie, Oldboy — instead of cloning big cheesy American flicks they’re fanning out to much more novel stories. This is all recent, last 3-5 years.
Lagaan looked slow and overhyped (I haven’t watched it yet, skimming it didn’t excite me). See Bombay, Hum Dil De Chuke Sanam or Dil Se if you’re a romantic, Rang De Basanti, Yuva or Krantiveer for something more substantive, Raincoat for a character study.
It’s about subculture formation, not ghettos. SM is a primo, número uno example of this subculture formation. There is a uniquely second-gen angle on Bollywood — snarky mockery of the bad ones (Turbanhead), smart analysis of the good ones. We need not just smarter movies but also smart, American-focused Bollywood commentary. Non-desi reviewers in the NYT, New Yorker and Village Voice miss too much cultural context. In mainstream Indian media, here’s the most thoughtful review of Rang De Basanti I saw, and I disagree with almost everything it says. It calls the nationalism subtle (by American standards it’s in-your-face), thinks the Punjabi is authentic (it’s totally fake, it’s 90% Hindi), and gives away the ending right up front.
Not only will Bollywood rise here, there will also be a Memoirs of a Geisha equivalent. Leaving aside that movie’s stereotyping, I’m talking about a movie with nearly all Indian actors, filmed in English and aimed at the mainstream U.S. market. And, of course, second-gen cinema can only improve.
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Bollywood is changing because Indian society is changing. But if someone locks in ‘anti-Bollywood’ just like our parents locked in ‘anti-Western family culture’ 30 years ago, they risk becoming as anachronistic as the mad scientist in Back to the Future 3:
Doc: No wonder this circuit failed. It says “Made in Japan.”
Marty: What do you mean, Doc? All the best stuff is made in Japan.
Doc: Unbelievable!
I work with a Indian youth programme and also have loads of nieces and nephews. All of them hate to go visit India and are not big fans of Indian food either. The only common thread? they all love Bollywood movies . . not all of them but the ones which are made well. they dont worry about what is the story, or how it ends. They just love the music, all the songs and dances and the loads of colorful sets that are the hallmark of an expensively made Bollywood movie. One reason of this maybe that they get an overdose of Hindi movies at home and are forced to see the movies and slowly develop an appreciation of it or maybe they are just trying to make lemonade out of lemons.
In general,
Bollywood has been on rise. In 2-3 years, I have had non-Desi American talking about Bolllywood (not Satyajit Ray films only) and before that it was non-existent. There was an Italian student (I think under 26) here, she shared her netflix list with me. I would recommend Bollywood flicks to her. Her list was ~40-50% Bollywood phillums.
Netflix has a lot of Bollywood offerings these days.
However, it does not compare to Chinese movie industry and their influence.
Memoirs of Geisha equivalent – Crouching Tiger… – maybe in 5-10 years.
Rafi, I’m glad to see that they enjoy the tamasha of the films. However, do they enjoy the plot, the characters, or the acting? If not, Asoka has a point.
Not really– the fundamental question we were discussing is whether they watch.
Manish, yaar, do you really think that films can keep their audience without a plot, acting or characters? Do you think that 3rd or 4th gen desis will watch just for the costumes and the dancing when they have little connection with their homeland? Bollywood films are popular all over the third world. But for brown skinned first worlders, it’s an exercise in nostalgia. This generation might watch it b/c the films are available, but I really wonder if their children will.
Man, that’s unwarranted snark. You’re way too dismissive of gems I suspect you’ve never even seen.
If you think SM will be around, the movies will too. There’s a hump at the beginning when everyone’s 1st gen, a dip when the 2nd gen numbers are too small and dilute for subculture formation, a sharp rise when the subculture coalesces and then a long slow decline due to assimilation combined with a small pop due to inbound interest from the mainstream.
It’s not about whether non-desis watch or not. We know that more non-desis will watch for the same reason we know that non-desis will buy books with a mango on the front cover. We also know that Bollywood is popular in Russia for example, and may one day be as popular here. The question is whether Bollywood will remain popular with second, thrid, and fourth, etc. generation desi-Americans. My argument would be no. I don’t even think it is that popular in the 2nd generation. Bollywood films, in my opinion, often run like Gap/Old Navy ads. All the “kids” in the high school are wearing the latest “trendy clothes.” Often, other races are ridiculed including black=bad guy, blond=slut, and asian=funny tourist. On top of that Indians abroad are treated as if they are immoral sell-out scum and don’t know anything about their roots, which is not only incorrect, but often gets the situation backward. Why on Earth would any of these “values” be of interest to assimilated kids in the U.S.? We know by recent discussions that South Asian Americans are for the most part more assimilated than our counterparts in Europe, the Middle East, and South-East Asia. I don’t want my evetual offspring growing up to think that Bollywood films represent what India is like. I would want my eventual offspring to watch REAL Indian films, in Hindi, Tamil, Gujarati, etc. These are very worthwhile and have nothing at all to do with Bollywood, which better serves its purpose as being an opiate for the masses.
SM has to survive on its quality (hopefully) whereas the movies can survive on nostalgia for a decade or so. After that, they have to win viewers based on things like plot, characters and acting – the very factors that Goodmash pointed out were not mentioned by Rafi.
No way. These have nothing to do with each other. We blog mostly about American topics on SM. As long as there are desis in America (and we don’t have something better to do) SM will be around 🙂
Numbers? My anecdotal gut feel says the opposite, though primary female.
Partly due to education, partly due to lack of subculture. The kids will not all be white collar, and you are helping the subculture form.
The language is orthogonal, Tamil Nadu has commercial vs. art cinema also. Commercial Hindi cinema centered in Bombay is no longer only candyfloss, it’s diversifying in a big way.
I have had non-Desi American talking about Bolllywood (not Satyajit Ray films only) and before that it was non-existent.
I havnt really noticed that.
My last Bollywood movie was a few years back when I had the misfortune of watching this monstrosity of a movie on a very long KLM Amsterdam-Delhi flight. This movie is supposedly a megahit and had more cliches, cheesiness and juvenile stereotypes packed in 3 1/2 hours than you can imagine.
Most of the desi people that I know who were born here (Australia) seem to enjoy bollywood movies. I certainly am a minority in my hatred and loathing. Those damn songs and dances are absolutely intolerable.
PS: What do you guys mean by ‘2nd generation’ – do you mean the children of immigrants or the children of the children who were born in the US/UK/Aus etc? It is highly confusing terminology.
“my eventual offspring to watch REAL Indian films, in Hindi, Tamil, Gujarati, etc”
Abhi,
Do you mean art-house/ indy movies from all over India? Satyajit Ray, Shyam Benegal, etc.
As here, Bollywood eventually pulls toward them for big bucks. Be it Smita Patil, Shahbana Azmi, Om Puri, etc
In general, mainstream regional movies as (if not more) corny as Bollywood.
I just read in India Today that Bhojpuri (a dialect of Hindi) movie industry is taking off.
Unbelievable
I generally agree with much of what Manish says. I do feel Indian cinema will rise, but I also believe that what we think of as Bollywood today will not be the cause of this surge in popularity. The definition is ever-so-slowly changing, plots are becoming more adventurous and production is Westernising. The average quality of movies seems to be improving (from my perspective) from utter shit to thoroughly disappointing. My girlfriend identifies far more watchable movies for me these days compared to a few years ago.
About second-gen flix, whether Canuck, Yank or Brit, I have no confidence. A little while ago I was full of determination to make a hot British Asian film, now I couldn’t care less. I’d rather make a film with Asian characters which isn’t defined as a British Asian film, just British.
For people go watch Bollywood movies in theaters, is the audience all brown or mixed? This should give some indication as to the popularity of Bollywood outside the Desi community.
Yes, it’s a moving target. We will still be referring to Hindi language mainstream cinema primarily from Bombay, it will just have Westernized and diversified.
You might have better luck tomorrow.
I mean films like Everybody Says I’m Fine, MaqBool, Mr. and Mrs. Iyer, The Journey (Sancharram), The Warrior, etc. These weren’t the best films ever, but at least I felt they were worth my time and money. These are the types of Indian films I really enjoy seeing.
Whoa, totally forgot to express my visceral shock that Manish, desi culture-vulture extraordinaire has not seen Lagaan. I am shocked and stunned. But then again, you guys don’t get cricket so perhaps you won’t like it as much as I did (and I really did).
I would like to say one thing, kind of in response to Bengali (good name!) I generally hate Bollywood too. But I don’t find myself having much in common with other Bolly-haters. I LIKE songs. I LIKE dances. Indian cinema is different to Western cinema, I don’t want clones of Western movies, but I do want a fucking plot, live sound, a script and decent editing. I don’t accept “songs” as a criticism, that’s just a taste.
You see, Abhi– it’s highly gender-specific in the second gen.
If I am not mistaken, Bong Breaker’s girl is first gen.
Abhi,
I really liked Mr. and Mrs. Iyer. If you like Aparna Sen, please watch 36 Chowringhee Lane. It is a masterpiece. It is trilingual (English, Hindi, and Bengali – I might wrong a little bit). You will not regret it.
I heard “The Warrior” was pretty bad. Give me more info, I’ll put on my netflix list.
Be that as it may, it’s often transmitted to second-gen men by women.
It was pretty bad. But MUCH better than KKKG.
Abhi, I heard The Warrior was soporific, so help me place this in context by telling me your taste in Western movies.
As stated, the Warrior was very bad but much better that Devdas and KKKG. I self-identify as a movie snob. I usually don’t watch even a western flick unless Rotten Tomatoes.com has given it a rating above 80%. Check my Friendster page for movies I like 🙂
Can someone recommend some good, new Bollywood movie sans prolonged song/dance routine. My wife keeps bugging me to rent some Hindi movies.
Abhi,
May I present you a partial recommended list of great Bollywood movies. Do try if you can.
1) Pyaasa 2) Kagaaz Ka Phool 3) Dewar (original Amitabh B) 4) Devdas (Bimal Roy-Dilip Kumar version) 5) 36 Chowringhee Lane 6) Sholay 7) Do Aankh Bara Haath 8) One of the earlier Raj Kapoor-Nargis movies 9) Bobby 10) To be announced
In recent releases, Parineeta is quite good. I think it has a solid story. Even Paheli. Both are far more superior than KKKG
When in doubt, rent a Satyajit Ray movie.
This is like the people who eat only the middles vs. only the crusts. I know people who fast-forward to the songs and watch the rest if they have time.
Hmm, gender skew.
ALM,
You could use the list I gave to Abhi.
Start with Parineeta and Paheli – rather than Sholay for your wife.
Maybe it’s just the films that I watch that start off with 3 or 4 songs within the first 10 minutes – before I’ve even had a chance to get an idea about the theme and setting of the movie! Okay, so we can skip the songs, but that leaves us with the unbelievably one dimensional plot, characters and predictable (if not ripped off) story.
On the positive side, the good thing about bollywood movies is one can find great desi-wear fashion ideas.
I watched Lagaan and liked it even though in the first 5 minutes of the film you could figure out what the ending would be. I also recently watched Pareenita (because it is an adaptation of a Sharatchandra Chatterjee novel which I cannot read as I am illiterate) and also Chokher Bali – I really liked both of them too. So maybe deep down I am a Bollywood-lover.. :\
But a true snob doesn’t trust mainstream critics, he decides for himself. Critics tend to be drawn to slow pix without a pulse that are blatantly angling for Oscars.
Start with Parineeta and Paheli – rather than Sholay for your wife.
Would the movie have subtitles? She (non-desi) doesnt know any Hindi.
DVD versions almost always have subtitles.
I recently saw Parineeta (under less than ideal circumstances, but still) … and had trouble understanding why people said it was a sophisticated fillum.
Melodramatic, around as subtle as Mills & Boone. Every point was slammed home with a sledgehammer, and repeated endlessly. I felt like I was watching an early black and white silent movie, complete with a mustachio’ed villain and a damsel tied to the train tracks.
It was a big budget crowd pleaser, like Kevin Costner’s Robin Hood. It was fun in parts but … I really hope that isn’t the best that Bollywood has to offer the world. And the younger male lead (Saif Ali Khan?) was incredibly wooden.
Sorry if this sounds harsh. I’m not trying to criticize your taste in movies, I’m just saying that no matter how much somebody enjoyed it, I have trouble understanding why somebody might say it was a great movie.
Would you explain why you put it at the top of the Bollywood list?
“Would the movie have subtitles? She (non-desi) doesnt know any Hindi.”
Yes, I think if one rents through netflix. Even Blockbuster.
I saw Parineeta through netflix. But I did not pay attention on subtitles option.
I saw Devdas (it was from netflix) with French friends – We had the subtitles on.
“Would you explain why you put it at the top of the Bollywood list?”
My top ten list does not have Parineeta. It has Pyaasa on top. My list is comment #.27
However, Pyaasa is not for neo-Bollywood lovers, first timers. It is a heavy duty film.
Parineeta is a new movie, decent story and acting. A real plot. A good start.
wasn’t really going to comment on this thread….however…
In recent releases, Parineeta is quite good. I think it has a solid story. Even Paheli. Both are far more superior than KKKG.
i refuse to believe Paheli is superior to anything. One of the dumbest Hindi movies I’ve seen (and everyone I’ve talked to, who has seen it, agrees). and yes i know it was india’s nominee for the oscars.
ps: obviously just my personal opinion. no offense to KT or his choice of movies.
It IS sophisticated for Bollywood esp when you compare it to the likes of KKKG.
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You got to start somewhere. With up to 10 films out every weekend I have to count on a few of my trusted critics to do some weeding for me. Then I decide which ones to watch based on my own interests. Sometimes I don’t like the films that ALL the critics love. 2046 for example was just so-so despite getting great reviews.
You realize that you’re damning Bollywood with faint praise. If a better than average Bollywood film is at that level, then what does that say about the rest?
IMHO, Bollywood too is part of what India represents. It may not be a reality that resonates with Indians overseas, and you have every right to think its cheesy or corny or any number of adjectives used regularly here. But my truth has always been that it is a big part of life in India…for the masses as you say- it influences fashion, it inspires and entertains the overworked and the underpaid, it incorporates in its music (more often than not) some form or another of Indian musical instruments…And while I totally agree that it is the plot and the characters that should drive a movie, Bollywood movies are so much more than that, that I feel like its not even fair to compare them to less commercial, more artsy cinema. Its like comparing the musicals of the 50s and 60s with Schindler’s List or even with regular Hollywood blockbusters. They are just different genres. But that doesn’t make either one of them less REAL of less valuable or better than the other. They are just different.
Of course its completely a matter of taste.
One last thing, I don’t know if you have ever actually seen a Gujrathi film. If you haven’t maybe you can rent one 🙂 I would like to hear your opinion then
Precisely. And Capote was extremely slow. So you do have to calibrate the critics even as you harness them to do some of the filtering for you.
I think that for most fans the movie is nothing more than a vehicle for the songs and the dance routines. That makes me wonder – why produce the movies at all? Why not sell just the music videos?
Purely anecdotal, but I disagree Manish, I don’t think enjoying Bollywood films is gender specific. Many of my very close male friends from college enjoy Bollywood films, and the newer movies coming out of Bombay, that are not traditionally viewed as “Bollywood.” Sarkar, Page 3, Company come immediately to mind, and I would recommend all three (Company being my favorite especially b/c I found Page 3 a bit gratuitous). I think Amir Khan, and some of the newer actors, especially those who are attempting to cross over from art-house to mainstream, are all adding an interesting element in newer films. Lagaan was brilliant, whether or not you understand cricket, and films like Dil Chahta Hai and Mr. and Mrs. Iyer are adding a whole new element to Indian cinema. Not to mention classic Bollywood, like Mother India and the many Guru Dutt films mentioned above by Kush.
Furthermore, I think as long as Bollywood is being made in India, those in the diaspora wanting an easy way to connect to where their family came from will always find solace in Bollywood.
And Abhi:
The Warrior was critically acclaimed in the UK–“The Warrior” was chosen by the British Academy of Film and Television to represent the UK in the “Best Foreign Language Film” category at the 2003 Oscars, exept the Academy wouldn’t accept it because Hindi isn’t indigenous to the UK.
If you want to get a predictor of viewership trends in the future, go to any community festival. You’ll see dozens of teens, even some boys, performing dances to songs from Bollywood movies. Are they going to turn 21 and suddenly start hating Bollywood? So many kids are growing up with desi satellite stations playing nonstop in their homes. For me, watching Bolly films is a guilty pleasure like watching “She’s All That” 5X– I don’t think those kids even feel guilty.
crappy hollywood romantic comedies, bollywood romance films, manga all serve a population. As long as the Bollywood film industry considers its audience, there will always be one.
Sajit,
How is Sarkar? I am supposed a get it from netflix soon.
Isn’t it the “The Godfather” of Mumbai. Give me star rating out of five (***** = excellent, * = why?)
If a better than average Bollywood film is at that level, then what does that say about the rest?
it says that not a lot of good movies get made in bollywood. also, that is one individual’s view of what constitutes good cinema. if you have the inclination, you will weed out the crappy movies and find the good ones. this is not limited to bollywood. the current top 10 at the US box office is 1. The Pink Panther
2. Final Destination 3
3. Curious George
4. Firewall
5. When a Stranger Calls
6. Big Momma’s House 2
7. Nanny McPhee
8. Brokeback Mountain
9. Hoodwinked
10. Underworld: Evolution
on that list you will find movies that are ridiculously boring, movies with no storyline and movies that are just stupid. you will also find an average movie and an above average movie. if you want to go to the movies, you will do some reasearch, be it talking to a friend, reading a review or watching a trailer. the same thing applies to indian movies. a lot of them suck. you just have to find the good ones.
also, often times when you ask people for recommendations they will try to point you towards the more critically acclaimed, off beat movies. they will not necessarily point you to main stream movies they might have enjoyed. (i personally enjoyed satya and yuva. you will not find them on anyone’s list of of movies to recommend. i probably wouldn’t recommend them myself.)
what i’m trying to say is, there are a lot of bad indian movies out there (no storyline, same old hackneyed plot etc), but if you’re interested enough and take the trouble, you’ll find good movies too. you just have to look for them (like you do in hollywood).
you like it, you dont like it… without a partner… good luck getting any bolly and passing it on … what do we have so far … a sausage party… if that’s not a death knell I dont know what is…
The traditional Bolly category, musical romance, skews female. Action is the opposite but romance used to dominate. Now they’re branching out.
I’m arguing a transmission vector (female->male in the 2nd gen) re: who gets it first.
I need to tell you guys.
When I came to US as a graduate student. A typical Indian function would be classical music, invitation to Zaki Hussian, etc on the campus. Almost no Bollywood.
Now, on campus, I go to Indian functions, Bollywood is showcased very often. Often students performing are 1.5/2.0 genners in addtion to FOBs.
Manish, proof positive. Bollywood is not dying.