My title may be a bit inflammatory, but deservedly so I thing. Just a couple of weeks ago I wrote about India’s Lost Girls. The discussion that followed about the practice in India of gender selection through abortion, was quite interesting and evoked many strong opinions. It now seems that this practice has long since spread like a disease from the old world to the new. The Observer reports on its own investigation [link via Pickled Politics]:
… abortion of female foetuses has long been a part of life in Britain and The Observer has uncovered evidence that pregnant British Asian women, some in effect barred by the NHS after numerous abortions, are now coming to India for gender-defining ultrasounds and, if they are expecting girls, terminations……Ritu, 27, is fidgeting impatiently with her scarf. This mother of two children from Leicester has come to India while her husband, an engineer, has stayed with his family. With her is a cousin she barely knows. Ritu is just over 14 weeks pregnant. ‘I’m here because we were already coming on holiday to see relatives,’ she says quietly, motioning her cousin away. ‘I had an ultrasound here a few days ago. It cost about £20 and we found out I was having a girl. My mother-in-law suggested we aborted the baby because the family wants a boy, but insisted we do it in Delhi. I’ve had an abortion in the UK and she is worried the NHS won’t let it happen again; anyway, it is cheaper here – only £100 – and the doctors are excellent.’
Ritu says two of her aunts in Britain have had five abortions between them in their quest for a boy. Both were eventually refused ultrasound tests in Leicester and had them privately.
‘There are clinics in Leicester that won’t identify the sex of babies to Asian women. They have a policy, they say, so more British Asians are coming to India when they are pregnant to make sure everything goes to plan.
This just drives home one of the most significant points from the Lancet article referenced in my post two weeks ago. It is educated women that are doing this, and not just poor village girls that don’t know any better, as many of us long assumed. Even in Britain, it is the “social security argument” that justifies these actions in the minds of the families engaging in this practice:
Another case brought to the attention of The Observer is of Kulwant Seghal, 37, not her real name, from Sheffield, who horrified her own relatives by going to extreme lengths to give birth to a baby boy. Despite having two healthy daughters, she felt barren for not having produced a son and, above all, felt the scrutiny of her in-laws, in the UK and India, over her perceived failure. When she finally had a boy after three abortions he had a mental impairment so she is now trying for a second son.
‘I might have two daughters,’ she told The Observer, ‘but they don’t mean anything to me without a son. Who is going to look after me and my husband, who is going to take care of the family business? No woman is complete without a son…’
this is a profoundly disturbing trend.
i’m the oldest child and only daughter of my parents. when my mother was pregnant with me, someone asked her if she was hoping for a son. her response? “i want a daughter.”
i feel so lucky to have parents that aren’t bogged down with the reverence placed on having a son.
First of all, in the previous thread, it was clearly pointed out that at least 81% of all abortions in the US are based on non-medical excuses.
Is abortion of the basis of ‘inconvenience’ morally better than abortion for sex-selection? Both choices are independent of the health of the fetus.
On a side note, I question the credibility of Lancet as a medical journal. Just a few months earlier, they published a controversial paper linking mad-cow disease in Britain to cultural practices in India. The Indian govt stepped in to issue a rebuttal in that case. It appears that the west has started outsourcing blame for their problems to India.
Disgusting!! And it’s kind of hard to comprehend that educated people are doing this kind of rubbish…and it’s not even complete Indians…the countries progressed in so many ways…but we still have some people whose narrowminded outlook brings us not only shame, but assures us a place in absolute hell!! Firstly, its a shame to their upbringing if they feel that the daughters will not be competent to look after them…secondly…what the hell is the guarantee that their son will live with them??? The bloody moved out of India, maybe thier son will move to the USA from UK….
horrifying……….
If it is happening amongst British Desis you can be sure it is happening with American and Canadian Desis too.
I can’t speak for Canadian Desis but I would be SHOCKED if gender selection through abortion was prevalent among American desis. I just don’t believe that is the case. There is no indication of it at all. I just don’t think America has the same socio-economic pressures.
One must wonder what would happen if this was taken to its logical end…
If every desi family aborted their girls, who would they marry their sons off to?
-Sigh- This is like India’s version of eugenics.
It seems like there are two different but similar outrages in both this story and the previous story – 1) an outrage over the practice of abortion, and 2) an outrage that females are arguably being treated as second class citizens. In some posts on the previous thread, I can’t easily tell whether the poster is outraged over the practice of abortion.
Do Sepia Mutiny readers consider a fetus to actually be a person (or have a soul)? And if you believe a fetus is not a person, then what is wrong with gender selection?
I personally consider a fetus to be a person, which further adds to my outrage over this practice. I am surprised, however, to read comments in the previous thread that were against abortion – Sepia Mutiny seems to have a large contingent of people that identify themselves with the left end of the political and social spectrum.
I am having a hard time understanding the outrage from people who believe a fetus is not a person – hence my question. I could see how the practice would be unethical on the basis of not wanting females, but I can’t see how it would be morally wrong.
Runnerwallah, I think maybe what you meant to write was “outrage over the practice of SEX SELECTION via abortion.”
This is not meant to be an argument about pro-choice vs. anti-abortion.
Would I be accurate in saying that US-based desis are, on the whole, more integrated and “Westernised” (or at least have a greater tolerance for Western ways of thinking and behaviour) than their UK-based counterparts ?
There is definitely a greater level of education and income amongst American desis compared to the UK — but as the original article above states, educated women in the UK are also aborting female foetuses. So the “economic” part of “socio-economic factors” may not necessarily be an issue. I’m no expert but this may be more to do with the cultural environment of the people concerned — with regards to family members and their social circle.
What’s truly shocking is the ruthless, matter-of-fact, ends-justifying-the-means logic being deployed by both the older-generation (in-laws etc) and younger women concerned.
Female Foeticide is every bit as horrendous as that other atrocity – misnamed –
honourkilling. I hope the misogynist eugenicist “British Asians” this time will not be unhappy and be thankful to the press for having concealed their identity under the “Asian” blanket – and the other Asians who don’t practice this abominable custom should demand that the “Asians” who do are identified by their religion or country of origin. And politicians across Europe who wish to elimnate those “Asian” immigrant practices that do not conform to generally accepted civilisational norms will add female foeticide to their list of targets.*Would I be accurate in saying that US-based desis are, on the whole, more integrated and “Westernised” (or at least have a greater tolerance for Western ways of thinking and behaviour) than their UK-based counterparts ?
I’m referring to both the older and the younger generation here.
Abhi, care to elucidate what you meant by different socio-economic pressures that UK desis face as compared to American desis?
“Abhi, care to elucidate what you meant by different socio-economic pressures that UK desis face as compared to American desis?”
Lack of ghettoization in US as opposed to UK (as Abhi pointed a week ago and Jai a number of times). As the immigration filter in US usually selects people that for most part settle in suburbs almost as soon as they arrive. Dispersal = dilution
That takes away a lot of social expectations from “socio-economic” equation.
I’m not sure I know enough specifics to do so. It goes back to what Jai said above:
I think the answer is yes. Remember this article from last week? It hit the nail on the head. I don’t know of a single desi American family that I have EVER heard express concern about a “social security problem” in their old age. Because of immigration patterns most American desis were highly educated and primed to succeed upon entering the U.S. They expect that their kids (boys and girls) will be rich and either become a doctor or marry one 🙂 Therefore there just isn’t that thought of “oh, who will take care of us in our old age.” They know that if they need help their daughters will be just as capable of taking care of them (if not more so) than their sons. Other families sometimes just move back to India if they feel financially unsecure here.
Let me ask. Are there any desis reading this who were born or primarily raised in the U.S. that have even caught a hint of such a problem here in the U.S.? It would take a lot to convince me that this problem exists here.
The continues to disturb me no less. I spent the afternoon with a dear friend and a wiggly 3 month old. My friends who happen to be American were so hell bent on having a baby girl that I feel as if they would have been disappointed if they’d had a boy. She talked about perhaps having a second one in the future after having tasted motherhood for a couple of months. Her husband chimed in from the other room “And we are aiming for a girl again”.
My girlfriend says “I want her to have a sister, I want her to experience what I have with my sister and I know that it will eventually be my sister and I that will be taking care of our parents needs. My brothers aren’t really that easily available with their own families.” How true has this been in my own life is beyond words. Even among my friends it’s always the girls that did more, stuck around more and came back home to take care of the parents.
It’s refreshing and heartwarming that there are indeed cultures where this girl picking shyt isn’t happening.
the thing is, an individual preference of a gender isn’t that big of a deal. preferences aren’t that big of a deal. it is when you see systemic preferences which are likely derived from social and cultural factors that your eyesbrows are raised.
I’ve been thinking a lot about this particular issue since the last time a similar argument was raised. The issue isn’t about aborting for sex selection being morally lower. It’s about the attitude it displays towards women and the general treatment of women in communities where people believe they are of less worth than men. That is more disturbing to people than the fact that people are aborting for whatever reason.
The other thing that bothers me about this line of argument is the tit or tat reasoning offered. That if the US is performing non medical issues related abortions it is somehow justifiable that India is having abortions for gender selection. Why do we need to weigh it against another evil at all? And what do you wish to accomplish by doing so? That it’s a “lesser evil” and hence OK?
Everytime this argument comes up it takes away from the fact that this indeed IS a problem and will be even a larger problem in 20-25 years when women will be scarce in some communities and subject to further atrocities as a result of it.
‘I might have two daughters,’ she told The Observer, ‘but they don’t mean anything to me without a son. Who is going to look after me and my husband, who is going to take care of the family business? No woman is complete without a son…’
It’s awful, she doesn’t even mention the son she has.
The US has a clear systematic bias in favor of girls [at least in terms of adoption, although I would argue that the preference is more pervasive than that], and the effects are also harmful, although far less so than sex-selection abortion. According to Slate:
This is a matter of demand, rather than supply:
This preference for girls dates back as long as we can find records:
The article speculates on why this might be so [argues that women are in charge of adoptions, and that women think that girls respond better to nurture than boys do], but provides little evidence for its claims.
Jai – about British Asians vs. North American: I don’t know all that much about NAmerican desis bar things like SM, which is a skewed cross section (i.e. clued up, computer literate etc). However, the impression I get is that whilst they’re a smaller minority, less visible in the media and a smaller part of the national identity, they’re – on the whole – less bakwaas than British desis. The reason I socialise with a small proportion of British Asians and the reason I attend few Asian events is because I intensely dislike most British desis. Over 90%. The remnant are great and I respect them highly. But the average British Asian is stuck in a time warp they either brought over from 1960s India, or one that they inherited from their parents (who came from a 1960s India).
I can’t speculate about American and Canadian desis doing this sort of thing, but I’m perfectly ready to believe that British Asians are as backward as a BIMARU village.
well… flew over from delhi last week … and boy my arms are tired… heh … and had the pleasure of accompanying a family – them of the B.C. sandhu clan – as ascertained by a look at the foot wide address stencilled on their man sized luggage – the patriarch seemed to have kept firing till one popped out with a weiner – interesting to watch the whole clan – seven fruits of the loin in all – walk down the aisle – in decreasing order of height – persistence my man, … persistence.
What socio-economic pressures? You have said yourself Abhi that these are educated and middle class people having it done. Dont be so myopic.
this is really sick.. honestly… to abort female fetuses for those living in england? WTF anywhere in the world that this happens but for her to go traveling outta the country because of the NHS… seriously..this has me fuming mad… i don’t think i’d call her an educated female.. if she was “educated” abhi..because if she was educated, she wouldn’t listen to her family… or have courage to speak up… or smart enough to use protection…condoms and birth control aren’t that hard to get a hold of…come on now.. calling her educated pisses me off even more…
CP – she didn’t want birth control, she wanted sex selection.
This is a demand-side problem with a demand-side solution. As with illegal drugs, there’s no feasible legislative fix. You’ll have handheld genome decoding within a few years, which is gonna make sex selection look trivial (the difference between identifying individual genes and the vastly simpler problem of telling the difference between entire chromosomes). It’s in fact a violation of medical consumer choice, a nanny state, to not tell you something about your fetus which you wish to know. And that’s not even looking at the legitimate cases– someone without the viable birthing years or economic means to support another child, who’s already had several children, and who really, really wants to select the sex of the next child, whether boy or girl. I bet my mother might’ve, after two boys. The third was another boy, and she now wants me to marry her a daughter.
No, the solution lies in changing attitudes and culture. Educate your daughters and eliminate dowry, and they become economic engines, not drains. Teach them to be strong, and you can rely on them as you can rely on sons. And this isn’t just advice for desi culture. The most pervasive male fantasy on movie screens today is the ass-kicking female: Lara Croft, Elektra, Aeon Flux, Underworld, UltraViolet.
The first time I watched Matrubhoomi- A nation without women…I hated the very concept, because I thought such movies were degrading India to an international audience. After reading this article, I’ve begun wondering if such an incident, though far stretched can still occur…it’s frightening to even think about it…and to be very honest I am deeply offended by the thought of these families depending on their sons for their geriatric problems…I think today every daughter is capable of doing just as much as a son…Im not a feminist but Im hurt that with so much change, there still are some people who think like this
Aren’t you contradicting yourself my dear? 🙂 The thought alone that you feel slighted for womenkind and believe that they pull just as much weight as men is being a feminist in itself.
But what do you do about the structural constraints? The cost of a wedding, as I blogged earlier, is equivalent to a house or college education in the US, and that’s not counting a dowry. Unless you can change things so that the cost of weddings is split, girls are an expensive proposition. That’s not thinking about earning differentials, or the fact that in India the females are “married into another family” so they have to take care of their in-laws rather than their own parents (that’s what changing your name means).
There are powerful structural constraints here. You can change culture, but you have to change the price tag too …
There is societal pressure’s and then there are socio economic pressures. The sex selection thing is more of a cultural/social pressure. The socio economic pressure might make it more uphauling… ie, female infanticide, honor killing etc. I would say that desi’s in America might prefer sons also, but dont feel the need to go to the extent of gender selection.
It is this oxymoronic nature of our culture i don’t understand. On the one hand our religion teaches us to respect ALL life. Then there are people who follow that religion(practice vegetarianism), and then go have an abortion. I belive our cultural and religious institutions need to educate our people more about proper moral conduct.
There are powerful structural constraints here. You can change culture, but you have to change the price tag too …
Point well taken. But why do these things have less of an impact on other cultures? girls going to the guys house and taking care of her in law’s or the brides family paying the bills for the wedding are not unique to desi culture. I would say that for the most part the brides parents paid for the wedding in American culture also(atleast traditionaly). yet gender selection is not a problem amongst Americans
Unfortunately India doesn’t have anything like a Papacy so to put the burden on the existing high level religious congregations like the Sankaracharya or the political bodies like the VHP or BJP isn’t going to yield anything because of intense corruption. They are part of the problem.
Weddings are a lot less expensive in the US (relative to family income) and there have never been any dowries. Americans go into major debt for houses and educations, not weddings.
Also, since the advent of abortion it has been unusual for parents to live with their children all their lives and be entirely dependent upon them for financial support. Indeed, one of the hypothesized reasons for a preference for female children in the US is the feeling that girls are more likely to care for aged parents than boys are.
Janeofalltrades,
The many dharamsansads that have been held by the Hindu acharyas have without exception condemned female foeti(infanti)cide. But this is water off a duck’s back. And of what use are these pronouncements? IS any Acharya going to say that it is OK if girls perform the last rites for their parents-which is not such a rare thing in India. Hindus in India listen to their gurus when they want to. There is a power structure that is deeply disrespectful to the girl child, makes it very difficult for a woman to live independently, exerts unbelievable pressure on the girl’s family to crawl and creep before the groom’s family. It happens in a 1000 different ways whether it is Mylapore or Salem or Gurgaon, in ‘respectable families’ and among the “aam janata”. No one thing is going to help. No one thing is going to set it right. A combination of a fiery press (not just in English but in every language) – how about a female welfare page? – radical police reforms with 1000s of female cops set loose on the boondocks (women cops have done pretty well in TN), a long term legislative and legal mandate to abolish the practice and of course opening up the public and private sectors to women through financial incentives and deterents. This is one problem that an intrusive State is well suited to tackle.
er, I beg to differ. When the south asian diaspora is spread over four continents and a zillion countries, the cultural practices of different desi communities feed into each other… the American desi community is a bit less about ghettoized cultural enclaves than the UK or Canada. While in Canada there IS a good deal of ghetto-desi community formation, the proximity to the more progressive American Desi community staves off (for the most part) practices like female infanticide. So, “one thing” – like, hmmm… pressure to ‘integrate’ into mainstream society… does change things up, quite a bit.
There are lot of people with influence are speaking out, one example is Swami Agnivesh.
Thank god, we do not have level religuos congregation. They usually never solve any problems but create more.
Correction: we do not have high-level religous congregation
third wheel,
“While in Canada there IS a good deal of ghetto-desi community formation, the proximity to the more progressive American Desi community staves off (for the most part) practices like female infanticide.”
Well thank GOD for the americans. Clearly we Canadian Desis would be lost without them. And where are these ghettos ? I have been living in all the wrong places.
Sorry to go off on a tangent, but Swami Agnivesh is not a hindu leader. You can try to prove me wrong, but Agnivesh does not preach any kind of hindu philosophy, so the ‘Swami’ appellation to his name has no significance.
but Swami Agnivesh is not a hindu leader
Neither did I imply. He was on BBC recently, he does project himself as someone who devotes quite a bit of time on spirituality and reform. I think he belongs to Arya Samaj.
Do you have any empirical evidence that this is not taking place in America? All you have is anecdotal evidence and hope. I have never seen or heard anything like this happening in the UK with anyone I know. And I am 38 years old, married with two daughters and one son. But I accept that it might occur. This has little to do with ‘ghettoness’ and everything to do with an extended family, atavistic pressures and expectations of a boy. Further, this is not a commonplace occurence.
You dont seem to understand a simple point – in the article Ritu is married to an engineer – these are middle class educated people – people like you in America.
New Jersey, Bay Area, Yuba City, Houston – these are not ‘ghettoes’. These are areas of progressive enlightenment where progressive enlightened American Desis live. Only in the UK and Canada do people live in ‘ghettoes’.
Everyone in the world says one thing about Americans no matter where you go – Europe, Asia, Latin America – that Amaericans are often haughty, patronising, unable to understand the world, and even arrogant. Sadly, it seems many American Desis have imbibed this aspect of the American national character. Not all, but some.
This is shameful. Many of these people who rush back to India are those insecure conservative lot who support the Fascist Hindu organisations. I hang my head in shame being a Hindu
This is just ridiculous self-flagellation!
However, both choices are not independant of the ability to raise a child.
No, I have evidence that it IS taking place in the UK. Are you asking me to prove a negative? Jackson, your comments seem to reveal that you are nothing more than another America-hater with no solid arguments and an obvious chip on your shoulder. Calling me “myopic” unfortunately isn’t a very strong argument. Just get over it.
Abhi
Your shrillness and defensiveness kind of proves my point about American hubris.
I cannot see or imagine it, therefore it does not or cannot conceivably exist or happen.
This is not only myopia, it is lameness and arrogance.
Excuse me??? What has this got to do with being a Hindu, again? So non-hindus dont do gender-selective abortions… hmm just ask all those British desis to convert, the problem will go away.
You continue to use mere rehtoric instead saying anything of value. Your IP address places you in London. I’d expect more from you as most commenters from Britain usually add something pretty insightful to these comment threads. You are basically offended that I, as an American, have dared to write a post critical of the actions of some desis in England. THAT is lameness.
Its amazing the response the written word can evoke…. I do not know where to start. Firstly they need to start regulating this ‘sex screeningÂ’, just as abortion is regulated. We need some rules!
And now an interesting tidbit, while practicing law in South Africa some years back, a colleague of mine had an interesting case. ParentÂ’s that were suing their son. They claimed they had supported their son through university and sold their house to finance his business venture, moved into his house, with his wife and kids (come on you know what happened next, why? cos it happens all over!) and shortly after that the parents were thrown out. They were left destitute. Case was heard, verdict for parents. Not a very legally sound case but emotionally very very satisfying. Similar cases have been heard in the UK.
Let the lesson be learnt the hard way. I do a lot of volunteer work with my husband at nursing homes in Maryland and it always astounds me to see South Asian seniors (I am going to call it what it is) left to die.
When will the next generation be more progressive!!!