Dear () :
First, allow me to congratulate you on your excessively clever handle. Normally, I’d be jumping out of my chair like the little cartoon man who signifies “stellar!” for the San Francisco Chronicle’s arts reviews, out of appreciation of your FANTASTIC taste in music, but I am almost 99.9% certain that you weren’t paying tribute to a three-year old release from Sigur Ros with the whole empty parentheses schtick.
Second, allow me to even more sarcastically congratulate you on your attempt at incisive commentary, issued in support of the link you wanted to tip us to…ouch, I think it gave me an owie:
Islamic terrorists attack IISc in Bangalore and shoot a professor dead. Such beautiful gift from our loving South Asian brothers deserve a mention on this blog….or perhaps you’d choose to bury your head in the sand and pretend that this doesn’t/didn’t/won’t happen.
Not.
This trifling game is getting so old, I can pay a premium for it (still in the original box! mint!) on eBay. This Mutiny is brown. We like the term “South Asian“. We write about stuff that happens in the countries that surround India. We care. If you don’t, then that’s unfortunate. Getting snide in an ANONYMOUS tip isn’t going to change our minds, surely you had to be aware of that. If not, let this “musing” of mine clue you in: inclusiveness is how we roll, even though every one of our parents once had an Indian passport and exactly eight dollars in their pocket, upon landing at JFK. Speaking of that now legendary phrase–“eight dollars (in my hand)”– which my much-loved Father shouted on an every-other-day basis as a counterpoint to my spendthrift proclivities, my Daddy is the reason why I am a hard-core South Asian. Oh, and if you’re not sure what I’m referring to with my magic eight bawl, apparently my father (and several other Uncles etc) weren’t allowed to just stroll in the country with benjamins in their money clips. For whatever reason, my exhausted, anxious father had just that odd and small sum on him when he landed in New York, walked to a coffee shop in the airport, paid $0.50 for a single cup of kappi and then nearly fainted as one-sixteenth of his net worth left his hands in exchange for a tiny caffeine rush.
Two-and-a-half decades later, when he heard that I spent $2.50 on a cappuccino at Stanford, during a JSA one-day conference where I debated something foreign policy-y, he yelled at me for close to an hour about my extravagance, converting the sum to rupees and that most hallowed currency of all, the original eight dollars which created my family on American soil. “$2.50? $2.50! When I came to this country, I paid a fifth of that princely sum for a cup of coffee and my hands shook! Brazen girl! Are you the Maharani of Travancore? Have you no shame? Almost three dollars– for COFFEE! ende devam-ay, this one and money, it just falls through her hands…” 😉 I got a phenomenal Braun espresso machine for Christmas that year (1990), as my father grumbled that I would never get robbed for caffeine again.
Where were we? Ah yes, why my father made me a South Asian. When I was a wee thing, I got a globe for my sixth birthday from a very close Uncle. Fascinated, I noticed that there were “tropics” for both my and my father’s astrological signs, but not my mother or sister’s. I realised, for the first time, that America was a very big place. And I saw that India was very far away from San Francisco. My father found me peering at the “kite” and smiled with amusement. “What are you looking for?”, he asked. “Thiruvilla!” I exclaimed. Carefully, Daddy drew a tiny dot with a permanent marker, near the south-western coast of the kite. “There.” I kept studying, until I finally decided that India was a very big place, too. Daddy got a hazy look on his face and sighed. “It used to be even bigger.” Then he pulled me on his lap and told me about how maps were arbitrary and the lines which defined them weren’t drawn with the sort of marker he still held in his hand.
I asked him about my Montessori preschool teacher, who looked just like one of my Aunts. “She’s from Ceylon. She’s just like us. Remember when she came for tea? How it sounded like she was speaking Malayalam? She was speaking Tamil, which is one of the languages Malayalam is based on…Tamil is what your cousins in Madras speak, remember?” I wasn’t following. “So she’s Indian like us?” He replied negatively, but hesitated. “Not really. Not officially. Ceylon is a different country. But that doesn’t matter. She taught you the same way I was taught at Syrian Christian Seminary. She was tough and she understood that we appreciated that.” I glowered at him. When people at Montessori weren’t looking, she had pinched my ear once or twice, with my parents’ adoring blessing. “The thing is, edi…we are more similar than different. In this country, no one cares if you were rich back home, or if you were a Brahmin, or if you came from one side or the other of Punjab, because part is here in India and the other is there in Pakistan…you’re just a foreigner. Maybe your children won’t be considered such, but by then, who knows how many countries this will be,” he concluded, fingers lightly tracing the subcontinent. “Be proud to be Indian, but don’t think that makes you better or different from your teacher or your Uncle Nasir. They aren’t Indian exactly, but in this country, that doesn’t matter and it never will.”
:+:
Dear Santa, Gosh it’s good to be Orthodox. I get your full attention now that you’re done with that OTHER Christmas. 🙂
I haven’t published a “list” this year, but I think I know what I want: I want tolerance, respect and compassion. Musing all this blogginess has convinced me that THOSE are things I really could use. Sometimes, I feel like the random, mildly offensive Amreekans who compliment me on my flawless English are kinder than other brown people are, as evidenced by the SM tip above. I know it’s not kosher to assume things, because when you do, it makes a kundi out of you and me, but I have this suspicion that the person in the parentheses didn’t grow up here.
They didn’t know what it was like to be the only Indian, hell, the only Asian, fcuk it, the only non-white kid in school. They didn’t have classmates circle them and make “oooh-wah-wah-wah” noises by quickly touching their lips with their fingers, over and over again, in some horribly insulting mimicry of a misnamed kind of Indian. They didn’t walk a mile in my moccasins. So they don’t know where I’m coming from, just like I can’t even commence imagining what it’s like to walk a few kilometers in their chappals. I just think if you give me what’s on my Christmas list, this blog (ahem, and this world) would be an even awesomer place.
Also, if you could reclassify “sarcasm” so that it’s no longer naughty? That would be soooooo helpful, for both of us (less making a list for you, less items on it from me).
Oatmeal raisin and one-percent okay this year? I’m no Brimful, but I’ll bake them vs buy them, promise. Also? The fireplace isn’t real (there’s no chimney!) so just use the front door, yo.
Lowe,
A N N A
the region has the highest fertlity rates. so, check back in 100 years and every other guy in the planet will be a south asian.
May I just point something out?
BBC News: SOUTH ASIA.
political anthropology points out that ethnicity is situational. it’s fluid, not fixed; it’s assigned or claimed in response to a variety of factors. in the united states, neither “indian” nor “south asian” has become entrenched enough yet in the mainstream culture to displace the other; in any case, such displacement would never be total. “desi” is gaining steam, but even if it became dominant (in the manner of “latino” or “african american”), that wouldn’t settle the problem since different people have different views as to who the term “desi” includes.
what i’m saying here is, there’s an identity that’s up for grabs in the context of u.s. mainstream culture (mass media, school curricula, advertising demographics, whatever).
and therefore you get regular recurrences of the conversation that’s taking place on this thread, including points taken to petty or absurd extremes.
but what’s really getting played out is perceptions of self-interest, and ideology.
peace
the region has the highest fertlity rates.
africa & the middle east?
every blog should have a razib. 🙂
I have been thinking quite hard………
Mohammed Ali calls himself African American. Why doesn’t anyone from SM tell Mohammed Ali that he should only call himself American. Africans have a very special kinship with him, maybe a Suresh’s equivalent from Africa (Comment #. 90) should tell him that he really is not an African.
Dr. Martin Luther King called himself African American.
At Texas A & M, my boss was an immigrant from Nigeria. He calls himself African American but never Nigerian American. An immigrant from Eriteria comes to America calls herself African American. Another immigrant comes from Ethopia, she calls herself African American. You know there is a war going on between Ethopia and Eriteria right now.
Have you ever met a Cajun who calls himself Cajun-American? Me never. Maybe, they are not Americans. At home, they do not even speak English often.
I have a friend from Ireland (now an American), he does not even bother calling himself anything. I asked him and he said, “Go to a bar and find some………do not worry about details” Me know nothing. Why? I am not that smart.
I was born in Libya, but they wouldn’t give me citizenship because I wasn’t a Muslim. I’ve spent most of my life in America. But I’m Malayalee.
I’m still confused why I should love India…
Is there any reason to do this? I am slowly finding “Desi” to be a good term to describe myself since I understand that my ancestery lies in Asia- or to be more exact, South Asia.
But seriously? Why do I have to love India? Or be proud of being Indian, or American, or anything for that matter?
Kush_Tandon wrote:
Eh? It’s news to me that I have arrogated to myself the authority to tell others how to identify themselves – can you please explain how you inferred this from what I wrote?
And Eddie wrote:
For a fascinating discussion of the differences between the traditional Greek method of self-identification and the traditional Hindu and Buddhist methods of self-identification, may I recommend (apologies if you already know this source) Wilhelm Halbfass’ “India and Europe: An Essay in Understanding”; see especially Chapter 11 “Traditional Indian Xenology.”
I’m probably going to inadvertantly repeat what some other people here may have already said, but here goes…..
The bottom line is that I think the issue of self-identification should really be left up to the individual, unless there really is some kind of mass movement “on the ground” to officially identify certain groups one way or the other. If one is talking purely about ethnic identity, then yes, “South Asian” is probably the best term to describe us. However, if one delves deeeper into other cultural and/or social issues, then perhaps Indian-American, Pakistani-American etc may be better options. I already explained my own reasoning behind this in my earlier post (number 28). It depends on what the dynamics are on that side of the Atlantic.
By the way, to give another example, I believe that US-born Italians often refer to themselves as Italian-American and not “Mediterranean-American” — although possibly this may be different if there were similar numbers of immigrants in the US with Spanish and Greek ancestry (I’m talking about relatively recent arrivals; in the case of the former, I’m not referring to Hispanics/Latin Americans). Just a spontanous analogy anyway, I could be way off the mark here.
A related but slightly off-topic question: Do first-generation desis over there in the US (parents’ generation, not recent arrivals) happily identify themselves as American first and foremost, and are they happy for their children to do so ? The similar situation here in the UK could be a fairly controversial issue until fairly recently, with many parents not only refusing to identify themselves as British in any shape or form, but also being pretty hostile to the idea of their (adult) children doing so. Applying some armchair-psychology, this may be due to the colonial connotations of the term, along with the fact that (broadly-speaking) the UK isn’t a “nation of immigrants” in the same way as the US, so the word “British” was usually interpreted as referring both racially and culturally only to the indigenous white population (again, until recently).
I thought it was a pertinent question, as the issue of “primary self-idenfication” can affect how much an individual/group feels a sense of belonging to the nation and culture one resides in, along with the level of goodwill or hostility towards the country of citizenship and the majority (in the case of the UK, also indigenous) population.
As long someone says they’re American-South Asian, (or Brit-South Asian w/e) its fine by me. But its not fine if you choose to lump India together with some really “friendly” neighbours, and call me a South Asian, or represent Indians as South Asians. My identity has little to do with whether I’m friends with a Pakistani, Sri Lankan, Bangladeshi, etc., or If I like those countries. It has everything to do with me as an individual, and in being called “South Asian”, I’m being denied being an Indian. If we’re to generalise why stop at South Asian? Why not Asian? There are enough commonalities that one can come up with for any lame grouping. The point isn’t the commonality (and if so, why stick with commonality in region only?), but the identity(besides, there are enough differences that can be pointed out). And I can hardly see how Indians and Pakistanis can identify themselves together.
Why does Indo-Pak commonality always have to emphasise on commonality of the Punjabi/North Indian with them? Seriously, there are enough people in India who share little with their Pakistani counterparts.
“ah, I see, I was misunderstanding your point. But, in a way, I see that it sort of underscores it 🙂 Those people that want to distinguish themselves from, say, Pakistanis are more likely to be first gen: they identify with a national and cultural identity: India. It has less relevance in the US, so that here, as Americans, identifying as South Asian makes more sense.”
Exactly. If, as a first-gen, you have grown up in India (or Pakistan), spent your life so far as an Indian and only an Indian and then you move abroad and now all of a sudden you have people who are ‘brown’ like you saying that it is ‘right’ and ‘progressive’ to now identify as a South Asian…wouldn’t you be like ‘huh’?!?!
If as an American you move abroad and all of a sudden you are recategorized as a ‘North American’ or just a ‘Westerner’ wouldn’t you feel that was a bit odd?
A South Asian-American identity makes sense for 2nd gen (who choose it) because it refers to certain shared cultural characteristics – of family experiences, the feeling of growing up as an outsider, Bollywood, bhangra, food. But for those who are actually from India (or wherever) I think cultural characteristics are somewhat different, because they are more linked to the homeland – someone from Tamil Nadu does not even eat the same food from someone from Punjab, not everyone in India watches Bollywood as they may be more interested in regional film/music, etc…
I think Siddhartha touched on something I’d been batting around for a while. Identity is not only up to the individual, it’s contextually what suits them. By way of example, I was recently filling out HR paperwork and the choices were the usual: White, Black/African-descent, Latino/Hispanic, and East Asian/Pacific Islander/South Asian. So in that instance I’m South Asian. If there was only one title heading for Asian, then I’m that. If they’re progressive enough to name Indian Subcontinent or allow me to count as multicultural and allow me to specify which mix, then hell I will! Conversely, my Dad would always write in on such forms, “engineer”. It’s like the old biology classifications we learned in elementary school. Probe deeper and we all have subcategories-upon-subcategories to our personae.
If I go to workout at Lucille Roberts, then I’m categorized as a woman and perhaps fitness-conscious. If I go to a Jews for Jesus meeting, then I’m Jewish… If I go to a party thrown by Drunks With Dogs, then I’m a drunk and a dog-owner/-lover…whatever. We can be many things at many times; whether one person prioritizes their gender over their skin color or religion, political party affiliation or dietary preference… well, to each their own.
Another quick point. If the latter happens, you’d better hope that the “Islamic American subculture” mentioned is more benevolent and compatible towards American society/culture (extrapolate that to Western society/culture) than the corresponding developments here in the UK. One of the reasons why so many problems have arisen here is because of Muslims from a South Asian background deciding that the version of Islam practised by their parents and South Asian (mostly Pakistani & Bangladeshi) co-religionists isn’t “strict” enough as per what they perceive to be the “true” version of their faith, and they therefore want to be a part of the whole Middle Eastern interpretation (along with the pan-Islamic global Ummah mindset). The radicalisation has occurred when they don’t identify (sufficiently) with their fellow non-Muslim South Asians on the basis of their shared ethnicity, and instead fall into the hands of non-South Asian Muslim elements or influences who don’t have much respect for the more moderate Sufi interpretation and, of course, have no ethnically-derived empathy with South Asians at all. Apart from seeing significantly more hijabs/niqabs/burqas on the streets here in the UK in recent times, we also all know the disastrous consequences of where that particular road has led to here.
Of course, the “Islamic American subculture” may well be substantially more compatible and benevolent towards the United States, so let’s fervently hope that the influence of non-South Asian Muslims over there is much more constructive than some of their counterparts in the UK, assuming that Razib is correct in his hypothesis that many desi Muslims won’t buy into the whole South Asian mindset and will identify primarily with their co-religionists instead.
OKay peeps! Listen up! Here in America no one cares if you’re Pakistani or Indian, Bangladeshi or Sri Lankan! We’re all the same to them! On forms here the term “Asian” has always been used for anyone who is really from “East Asia.” I think the whole “south asian” thing has come along because we want to have some heading for ourselves since Americans don’t see Asians as brown Indians, Pakistanis, etc. Also, give it a break. When there’s a chance to provide unity in a country where we’re a minority, I say it’s a good call. This is why we won’t make any noise till we come together. peace out!
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/in.html
wow I thought India’s fertility rate would be a little higher. the estimate is 2.78 children born per woman for 2005. wonder what it’d be without the infanticide that goes on.
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/pk.html pakistans 2005 estimate is 4.14 children born per woman.
i wonder if anyone had parents from nagaland and are nagas if they would identify themselves as Indian and if not what would they identify themself as.
i think indian is a better understood identity as the term south asian isn’t really bandied about in popular culture in the US.
I don’t know, but they seem to have a problem when I don’t. But they also have a problem when I do. Which is why I give a rat’s kundi/dheka/matako what people think of how I identify MYSELF
you obviously have a problem because as I stated before some of you seem to think that South Asian is some sort of attempt “to tarnish your venerable (separate) identity?”
that’s your perogative, no one is denying that you should have the right to define yourself down to the most miniscule aspect of your identity if you so choose.
Let me ask you this, what is your reaction to someone who refuses to call him/herself Indian and wants only to be identified as a Gujrati Brahmin because s/he thinks that by identifying with anything other than Guju Brahmin will pollute his/her identity?
Yes, you have over-population problems, your point is?
Of course, the “Islamic American subculture” may well be substantially more compatible and benevolent towards the United States, so let’s fervently hope that the influence of non-South Asian Muslims over there is much more constructive than some of their counterparts in the UK, assuming that Razib is correct in his hypothesis that many desi Muslims won’t buy into the whole South Asian mindset and will identify primarily with their co-religionists instead.
american muslims who are no black tend to be more educated than the general population. their socioeconomic forwardness is a big palliative for the tendency to muslims to get medieval on other groups.
p.s. re: italians, note that italy was only 20-30 years old when most ‘italian americans’ showed up, and it is highly likely that these overwhelmingly southern italian peasants did not even know italian (based on florentine) but spoke a sicilian or calabrian dialect and had much stronger regional and local identifications than any national sense of italianness. you still have this manifest itself in references to ‘our village in sicily’ in the context of the italian american identity (which is operationally a south italian identity in terms of cultural markers like food, since very few northern italians proportionately emigrated to the USA and transmitted their folkways).
A related but slightly off-topic question: Do first-generation desis over there in the US (parents’ generation, not recent arrivals) happily identify themselves as American first and foremost, and are they happy for their children to do so ?
In my experience, no. Many dream of going back; many by property in India; many opt for transnational living–six months there, six months with the grandkids here. They do not–again, in my experience– object to their kids self-identifying as “American.”
The primary reasons Indians immigrate—as we’ve discussed ad nauseam on this blog–is economic betterment. One does not have to “love America” to be succesful here. Hindus and Sikhs are the product of a pluarlistic framework where everyone is really a minority and where no jaati (caste) dominates more than a fifty mile radius. One learns to negotiate the system and eke out a place…and they have obviously been succesful. Indian Muslims are part of this framework too. Some Pakistani Muslims adopt a posture of civilizational “superiority” and anathemize the very large out-group, then, well then…
For the second-generation folks for whom “South Asian” is a feel-good thing, I’d advise them that the world does not exist to make them feel good; it would be appropriate to recognize reality.
Bobby Jindall has figured on these pages; no doubt people are aware that some “South Asians” (notably the Pakistani American Congress) opposed his run for the governorship of Louisiana, not because he is Republican, but because he is “Indian”. I thought “Indian” didn’t exist as a category for second-generation “South Asian”-Americans. So much for the “South Asian” identity.
Group think is a terrible thing. Perhaps good for survival, but, it curtails experience and creativity. On that note they should get rid of this abominable site 😉
if you disagree with someone, fine. that’s your prerogative, your right. in your argument, however, give them reason, not condescension. the former earns respect, the latter . . . loss of credibility.
If this blog focusses on “South Asian” issues, I dont see much evidence of it. Writing on issues, which I assume would be of importance to the non-Indian part of that community is largely lacking. There were some posts from cicatrix on Sri Lankan issues, but that was about it.
For instance I would assume that Pakistani’s and Pakistani-Americans would be interested in the Punjabi-Sindhi political interplay on view over the Kalabagh dam issue, but I do not find any mention of it here.
If the participants in this collborative blog are passionate about being “South Asian”, then shouldnt they working harder at this?
There are monikers and then there are monikers.
Actually, I believe that former guest blogger Ads (who is missed) had some excellent posts on SL as well. This blog has covered that part of South Asia even if the blogger themself was not Sri Lankan. I know, because I am and I notice.
Critics of this blog would do well to keep mind that it is actually an American blog first, a South Asian one second. I was born here, I don’t care about the Kalabagh dam. Most of my friends (whose parents are Indian) haven’t even heard of it. When they do cover something in India or Pakistan, it’s one of two situations
— either it is major news, and would appear on my Google News page anyways, for example (like the IISC shooting)
— it’s whimsical or amusing or different (that little boy who ran so much)
— it’s part of larger social commentary on international human rights issues.
Readers who have a problem with this post are arguing about totally different things then their opponents are. No one is saying that in India or Sri Lanka, you should or have to call yourself South Asian. But if we do that here, why care?
Why do you care that they care? People are expressing some opinions about it thats all, I dont think anyones opinions here will cause someone else to rethink their identity. As an FOB I learn a bit about the 2G South-Asian-American worldview, maybe you can learn about other people’s opinions as well.
As an FOB I learn a bit about the 2G South-Asian-American worldview, maybe you can learn about other people’s opinions as well.
as long as opinions are offered respectfully. that is a problem that sometimes crops up in that there is a perception of asymmetry. though this weblog is run by 2nd gen brown americans (“south asians”), some ‘native’ or 1st gen indians seem to presume that they are more authentic and deserve pride of place by virtue of who they are (their closer relationship to historically brown nations). certainly when it comes to south asian considerations (i.e., in the brown motherlands) that is so, but sometimes that assumption bleeds over into topics which are specifically americo-centric. there fewer than 10 million “NRI/PIO” individuals outside of south asia, vs. 1+ billion browns in south asia, so there is a real demographic asymmetry, but this reality i think allows some to believe that the 10 million NRI/PIO are simply an addendum or extension upon the brown experience. the 2nd gen on the other hand has to by the nature of demographic reality take into account the 1+ billion browns in south asia, and so i think there is more reflexive reflection from that perspective. but on this weblog their concerns and viewpoints loom particularly large and do take center stage, something some do not seem to be able to understand (this is apart and beyond the intra NRI/PIO discussions that seem to erupt, as well as the divergent american and british and canadian perspectives).
Readers who have a problem with this post are arguing about totally different things then their opponents are. No one is saying that in India or Sri Lanka, you should or have to call yourself South Asian. But if we do that here, why care?
impossible. the former contains the latter.
i take my role as “evangelist” for this blog pretty seriously– i’m fairly sure i’m the only one who was dorky enough to print business cards with sepiamutiny.com on them, with “mutineer” as my title. 🙂
anyway, i’ve spoken to cable news channels, print media, documentary filmmakers etc…i have ALWAYS called us a South Asian blog. i think we all refer to SM that way, or we say “brown”…i’ve never heard abhi or manish use “Indian” to describe this space. if someone who writes or produces something about us calls us “Indian” after we inform them that we are SAA or brown, sure, we can contact them and correct them, but we don’t have any control over their actions after that (just like we couldn’t control their conflation of “Indian” and “South Asian” initially, when we used the latter).
i’m a south asian american. i almost never say “south asian” without “american” right afterwards, to answer someone fifty comments or so ago. i don’t identify like that to piss any of YOU off, i do it b/c it’s the truth, as i see and know it. if you have such a problem with that OR this weblog which dilutes and pollutes you…then to quote Mozz, “why do you come here? and why-h-hy-h-hy-h-hy do you hang around?”
like other commentators, i use different identities at different times. i use south asian often in circumstances where i am seeing a unifying reason to be categorized with people from south asian countries in addition to india. like if i were to be at a peace meeting btwn india-pak i would say, yeah South Asians for peace! So there you go, people using “south asian” use it because they love peace. yay!
Hear, hear, Anna
Brown is brown, politicians and their agendas aside…most of the divisions in the brown world (PAk, Bangla, etc.) are results of post-colonial divide and conquer games. Hey, not unlike Iraq!
Anna, to quote Mozz is interesting – always loved The Smiths (Marr especially). But what do you make of “Bengali in Platforms”??
most of the divisions in the brown world (PAk, Bangla, etc.) are results of post-colonial divide and conquer games. Hey, not unlike Iraq!
i would argue that a pan-brown indian identity was generated by muslim and european attempts to centralize the culture.* anyway, sorry, i get ancy when i hear terms like ‘post-colonial.’
Fair point, Razib – but i did not refer to “indianness”. I am referring to political/sovereign divisions specifically. Bottom-line is that we SA’s all have more in common than we have differences. Not unlike all humans in general, if you want to talk genome…
this conversation has taken an interesting, possibly useful turn. bongdongs (#122) makes the point that the subcontinental references here tend to be indian, which of course will lead those who are only interested in indian references (as opposed to other south asian countries and emigrant experiences) to claim the content as “indian” and not “south asian.” (and so doing, to claim this blog as “indian” — it’s a testament to the success of what the mutineers have built here that people are making competing claims about its identity.)
this has been discussed in previous threads on this topic, but it’s true that pretty much the only “south asian but not indian” subcontinental authorial perspectives here have come from cicatrix and ads, who identify as sri lankan. (plenty more in the comments, also mainly sri lankan-identifieds.)
it was also brought up, again in a previous thread that i’m too lazy to look up, that it would be interesting and worthwhile to have a pakistani-identified voice here from time to time. there are lots of progressive “desis with pakistani identification” out there who share the overall perspective anna states at #128. i for one would love to see such a guest blogger sometime.
one advantage of bringing in such a voice is that it would make very clear to the “india only” crowd that this blog is not only not what they want it to be, but is in fact opposed to what they want it to be.
some of them will find it interesting and engage in respectful debate.
some of them will raise their objections to a crescendo, but only in some threads that the rest of us don’t have to read.
some of them will go away.
it sounds like a win-win for me.
peace, from this south-asian-american-mixed-race-pluri-cultural-situationally-self-identified-and-always-in-creative-flux-otherwise the-brain-goes-stale-and-the-soul-goes-sour brother
re: pak, what about ikram saeed? ikram & i don’t agree on much, but i think he’d be an obvious candidate.
i think the indo-centric view is sensible though, over 3/4 of south asia’s population is in india proper, and over 4/5 of american browns are is of indian national origin or their parents are.* this weblog is not about perfect proportionalism, and it shouldn’t be, it is the voice of authors, and to a less extent the readers in the comments. punjabi and mallu concerns loom rather large seeing as how the 2 of the principles are punjabi in origin and two are malayalee even though these two ethnicities aren’t that numerous in india itself. and seeing as how sri lanka has only 20 million people, that angle has been pretty well covered too.
as anna said, if you don’t like, don’t read it. it is what it is.
i agree with you, razib. and this is not a democratic forum, nor the united nations; it’s the extended living-room of six very hospitable cultural creators, and they can do whatever the hell they want. the pakistan/india thing is a bit special though, because of the animosities. the south-asian-american in me would love to get some insight into the specifically pakistani global diaspora, and see the world as a progressive, positive-spirited member of that diaspora might see it. and i think it would be a cool addition here, even if just on an occasional or temporary basis. i’m just musing out loud here, respectfully as i’m just a guest, and constructively i hope, as i’m a regular.
peace
and happy new year to you all!
well, i wasn’t criticizing you sid. just pointing out that one problem with popular weblogs is readers sometimes forget who built the house and is cooking the dinner 🙂
don’t worry brother, i didn’t take it as a criticism. and i agree with you.
peace
Vick #127: I agree with you. America is a nation where skin color is the most predominant denominator. Creating a grouping called brown/south asian is a natural outcome of the need for security/identity based on skin color. Since “south asian” immigrants are still a new people, 2nd generation immigrants will continue to borrow and harp on themes/ideas from their lands of orgin till such a time they come up with something that is uniquely their own. Identity needs content: what better than India and her shenanigans?
India and Indians will continue to suffer till “SOuth Asians” branch out with their own new culture and other paraphernalia! But, as somebody above said this is a site for “South Asians”. The best Indians can do in this war of memes is to learn to fund and market their own unique identity as distinct from and incompatible to other nations from the region.
and the world will continue to suffer til bollywood costume designers branch out with their own new designs and paraphernalia, instead of using four-year old american shit. everyone borrows from everyone else. that’s just how the world works. fluid, elastic…not so easily separated.
contd: The ability to shape and transmit information is very important in terms of identity wars. This, regardless of the veracity of information being transmitted. What matters is effective marketing arms which in America translates into academic and media influence. The shapers and the transmiters of knowledge. Indian Americans are begining to fund academia and are doing so on their terms. This should undercut the influence the “South Asian” lobby has in this country. That Indians and South Asians have something in common is a big lie that needs to be nailed. “South Asian” is suicide for India and Indian Americans. As regards “hanging around here”, as long as info from India is being bandied about here, Every Indian has a right to critique and comment on the contents thereof. Perhaps, the writer should leave India alone and stick to something closer to his/her turf.
“can you please explain how you inferred this from what I wrote?”
Suresh,
I am sorry. I read your comment again – I misread you. My mistake.
I did want to state that identification is a very tricky thing and was using Mohammed Ali for a reason – his role in identifying with African and vice versa. Also the whole ………Vietnam War and its fall out, and most importantly “In Zaire” thing, it is quite fascinating thing.
right, except that the majority of us wacky “South Asians” ARE Indian. you can hate on me all you want if you’d like, but my dna ain’t gonna change; i was born to Indian parents. i’m a SAA of INDIAN descent. that guarantees that Indians and SAs have something in common– ME.
ooooooooh, scared of YOU. what’s gorgeous is how i don’t have to leave India alone. unlike you, she isn’t so bothered by all this. she wouldn’t have survived, absorbed, evolved and thrived the way she has if she were.
Abhinava
Why cant any one call himself/herself what ever he/she/it feels like. I disagree with a lot of people here and agree with a few on some topics, With that said SM readers are free to identify themselves however they please. How can they take your self identified id? I disagree with ANNA here that Indians is a subset of SAsian, may be for her! Its not for others. My self included.
Well by all means they should. It will be a +ve development for india. eg like the jewish diasporas active role in media and the good results its meant for the israel. I dont deny propoganda wars arise and having a strong influential indian group will be quite good for ‘us’.
Dude its the ownership issue. Its their blog and their topics and comments policies are for them to decide. If an ‘Indian American’ oriented blog is created by you, you’d chose topics comments policy as you please. I may become a regular reader there if you do and may be an occasional blogger if you allow me.
PS visit pickledpolitics. Its a some what similar to SM dealing with ‘asian’ socio politico blog from UK it sucks. IMNHO Thats an example of how not to do this kind of thing. Also the banners on SM are quite good except for arundhati
Second Abhinava’s comment most sincerely. This site is nothing without its ‘India’ connection. Take India away and there isn’t much left for any discussion of import and dare I say it, of interest. No amount of ‘South Asian’ inclusiveness, without the necessary recognition of India’s primacy in the general scheme of things is going to carry this weblog very far.
Why then continue to subsume India and Indians in the vague and pointless SA appelation?
Finally, to the weblog creators’ point about ‘why be here, if you are not ready to go along with us?’, one can only repeat Abhinav’s comment: If India is being discussed in a public forum, you can bet an Indian will put on record his view or in this case, his protest.
Here is my 2 cents FWIW. The SA moniker is not one brought about by the oh-so-kindred-spirit-and-common-brotherhood of 2nd gen desis. It is a moniker that has been adopted out of necessity to increase/feel more secure in one’s brownness in the face of a white majority.
While appreciative of the typical 2nd gen’s need to scurry under the SA cover, it is worth noting that a parent nation’s identity isn’t hostage to an immigrant’s need for social/cultural security in his/her adopted land.
SA, as a term is is convenient. Reality, however, is not.
Peace and out
mein gott in himmel, you make it sound like we’re hating on India, forcing you to nobly defend her. hardly. (now you know why i threw my sincere declaration of love for the motherland in here…somewhere) we’re not asking you to kiss our collective ass or “go along with us”, we’re all about discussion and RESPECTFUL dissent. an online adda if you will. i quoted “suedehead” for a reason, and it wasn’t “agree with us or bugger off”. more like “if you’re so vexed, why come to a party you HATE?”
…listen to me when i want to speak about the world we live in and life in general though my views may be wrong they may even be perverted …hear me out and don’t easily be converted to my way of thinking in fact…often disagree but at the end of it all…understand me.
~m. gore
(i can’t believe i got to see him sing it live.)
dear wheatish ones… now that you’re done ruminating the shades of brown… a gentle nudge towards the clock ticking down… why so early you may ask… well, here’s the long version. i was burying some demons in the woods the past few days … the trip came to a sorry end when i was crossing a creek, my snowshoe got caught in some driftwood and I landed knee first on a large rock… the knee was followed by the rest of me and my big-ass backpack into the not-quite frozen stream… my much-abused watch (that’s the thing with us guys – we dont leave off when things get rusty or chipped or dinged or frayed) may have seen this one abuse too many – because it is now reading MU 1 – 6:35 pm folks… So I looked down right now and thought… what the heck, it’s a good excuse… and ta-daa—preeee… let me ring in the new year with ring a ding song… trust me on this, it’s worth the click… the song is topical… so make merry and go into the new year with a little bit of good cheer, you hear…
from your greying biraadher from the north.
Crane. Denny Crane. 🙂 Testing whether anyone is actually reading the comments before posting
Dhaavak was that a sly vote for indian id or was that hedging bets. The problem with those who are sticking with indian over SA is simply this. A group did not want to call itself indian. It created a ruckus to get its way. Fine Good Riddance(damn the riddance was one sided so not so it wasnt that good!) Now why the hell is there a desire for a common identity now!. chal phut
अर्ज किया था हमने एक अमरीकी मियाँ से| जिसने iselin में indo-pak store खोला था| बाप को चाहिये था पाकिस्तान बाँट दिया उसने हिँदूस्तान| बेटे ने चन्द काफ़ीरी पैसों के लिये जोड़ दिया indo-pak | चलोँ हम तुझे हज़ारोँ बर्फ़ीयों का order देँगें | लेकिन पहले नाम तो जरा hindu-pak कर दे |
“The SA moniker is not one brought about by the oh-so-kindred-spirit-and-common-brotherhood of 2nd gen desis. It is a moniker that has been adopted out of necessity to increase/feel more secure in one’s brownness in the face of a white majority.
While appreciative of the typical 2nd gen’s need to scurry under the SA cover, it is worth noting that a parent nation’s identity isn’t hostage to an immigrant’s need for social/cultural security in his/her adopted land.“
Beautiful Karmacola! “South asian” has interesting anthropological and psychological connotations. I have nothing against those that seek such an identity. Just don’t make India subservient to your flights of fancy.