An erstwhile IIT prof is dead and several others remain injured, after a brazen terrorist attack at a conference which was being held at the Indian Institute of Science (IISc) in Bangalore (Thanks Aj, for the link):
The suspected Lashkar-e-Toiba (LeT) terrorist entered the complex through the main gate, took out hand grenades and an automatic rifle and started firing indiscriminately at the scientists who had come to attend the International Conference on Operations Research Applications in Infrastructure Development —2005, according to eyewitnesses.
While Prof M C Puri succumbed to injuries at the M S Ramaiah Hospital, Dr Pankaj Gupta, Patellappa, an IISC employee, Dr Sangeetha, Dr Vijay Chandra and four others were injured. All the scientists had come from Delhi and other places to attend the international conference.
When security isn’t secure enough:
Only three private security guards were on duty when the incident occurred. They were not trained for this situation, according to sources.
More, this time from Rediff:
Sources said the possibility of terror attack could not be ruled out given the nature of the automatic weapons used in the attack. A state-wide alert has been sounded…
The officials are also trying to ascertain whether the underworld had any role in Wednesday’s incident as the main accused in the 1993 Mumbai serial blasts, Abu Salem is in Bangalore to undergo lie detector and brain mapping tests, sources said.
what a tragedy…what good is going to come out of killing these innocent professors?.. honestly… there are a few stupid people in the world that make many other lives completely miserable..
If we are to believe Syriana, these are just misguided youth.
Thoughts and prayers to the prof’s family. Just a senseless act of killing.
My Mum used to study at IISc, so we’ve been following this one closely since last night. Poor BLR is not used to this sort of thing and the attack does seem very bizarre. Our thoughts are with Prof Puri’s family and I hope the casualties pull through okay.
My reaction to the IISc attack was: What took them so long?
I’ve been told that Bangalore’s muslims are being radicalised over the last decade. You can see it on the streets – more men with skull-caps and pathani dress, most women with head-scarf. You can see it also in the mosque sermons – so much so that by default the police have to be present near every mosque after the Friday prayers to keep peace.
I think a few years ago a Pakistani minister made a statement that went something like: “If Pakistan wants to, it can wipe off the IT industry in Bangalore and Hyderabad in a few weeks.” Amid loud protests from India, he squirmed out of it by saying “What I meant was that Pakistan could provide cheaper and better services to Western customers, thus putting India out of business.” But India took the statement seriously, and Z-class security was provided to AzimPremji and NarayanaMurthy. Around the same time, a few Bangalore muslims were arrested upon suspicious behaviour near AzimPremji house. He was already under pressure because over 95% of Wipro’s employees were Hindus. In addition, he would participate in the SaraswatiPuja when new computers were inaugarated. In addition, he used to give money to temples (in addition to mosques) as part of his charity. In addition, he belongs to the (Ismaili?) Shia community among muslims, which is a minority among Indian muslims (who are mostly Sunni), which disagrees with Sunnis on many issues (they support the construction of the temple in Ayodhya).
All in all, trouble for Bangalore ahead (and Hyderabad/Chennai as well). All of the Congress-CM Dharam Singh’s wooing of muslims will tantamount to little in the end.
M. Nam
You can see it on the streets – more men with skull-caps and pathani dress, most women with head-scarf
Yes there seems to be a lot of data which suggests a correlation between wearing Shalwar Kameez and attacking random professors.
I’d term this a senseless act, but the automatic weapons do at least suggest terrorism. I find a link between such terrorism (if that’s what it was) and the more domestic variety that occurs with family (dis)honor killings. Both seek to terrorize, only with different target populations in mind. Non-Muslim cultures for one, Muslim women for the other.
It’s as if the KKK had been running rampant in the US for centuries with no prospect of an end in sight.
I think IISc as a target for Pakistan based terrorist outfits such as Lashkar-e-Taiba, backed by the ISI, is known for some time, as per this rediff report. I remember sometime back when some LeT terrorists were caught alive, they had divulged information about attack on Bangalore’s IT infrastructure. Very infuriating (to me)
Took the words out of my mouth AMfD. MoorNam, I haven’t been to BLR but my best friend, my gf and lots of other people are from there. I haven’t heard much about Muslims being radicalised. But let’s assume you are right – you can’t tell these things from wearing skull caps or hijabs.
Often your posts are articulate (that doesn’t mean factual) and require thought to respond to. This one isn’t. It’s all hearsay. Can you expect anyone to believe that people are going to attack Azim Premji because he participates in Saraswati Puja? Where did you get the figures about the religious makeup of his staff? Kill Shah Rukh Khan! He played a Hindu on screen! Kill Abdul Kalam! He works for a Sikh! I don’t know if what you say about mosques needing police outside is true. There are loads of mosques in BLR, are you saying that they ALL have police outside every Friday? Surely crime rates would soar on Friday as the entire city’s police are distracted.
Either way, even if you are correct in that BLR is home to some extremists, why attack professors and scientists at a conference?
Either way, even if you are correct in that BLR is home to some extremists, why attack professors and scientists at a conference?
In other words, what could a terrorist–if this is indeed a terrorist attack– be thinking?
IISc is emblematic of independent India’s turn to science and away from false epistemologies and constricting worldviews. Its in a city thats at the heart of the Indian “miracle”. If you are in the business of derailing India’s progress, what better symbol to attack?
AMFD/BB,
It’s one thing to say that there is no link between wearing Salwar/hijab by people who always did so, and killing of professors. I agree with you on that.
It’s another thing when people who wore lungi/veshti/dhoti, saris and lehngas, spoke Telugu, Kannada at home for centuries, suddenly (over the course of a few years) switch to salwaar/hijab, Urdu at home and Arabic in mosque. Would the latter group be more susceptible to attacking professors? I think so. Just watch the trend in Bangladesh and Indonesia for the last 10+ years.
We could either be politically correct, or identify the problem. Not both.
I cannot find the articles about Azim Premji – some websites do not carry stories from before 2002. Will continue looking.
M. nam
Kill Abdul Kalam! He works for a Sikh!
Mark, surely attacking one of the IT companies would be more emblematic? Anyway, there’s no point trying to speculate on what they were thinking or to understand terrorists, so forget I mentioned that.
MoorNam, I have no interest in being politically correct, I never have. But I think stronger facts are needed. A book I’ve mentioned on here before is Naipaul’s Beyond Belief, which tackles the Arabisation that has happened in Malaysia, Indonesia, Iran and Pakistan. But I can’t accept that vast swathes of BLR have been converted to speaking Urdu/Arabic and dressing differently unless I see it for myself or hear it from a reputable news source. Could those people be more susceptible to drifting towards terrorism? Maybe. But your initial point of being able to see the radicalisation of BLR by simply looking in the streets isn’t the same thing.
Irrespective of links to potential terrorism, I agree with you on one thing (shock horror!) The trend of abandoning native customs in favour of imported (Arabic) trends is something that does particularly piss me off. But I do maintain you can’t extrapolate that to say “it was only a matter of time” for this to have happened.
OK Vick, but the President has few actual powers in India. Anyway, you know the point I was trying to make, however inarticulately.
I dont think it has anything to do with Bangalore muslims per se. In any community there will be handfull willing to carry out violent acts and provide logistical support.
This attack is a clear message from the Pakistani ruling establishment that they are willing and have the capability to stike at the very heart of the Indian elite, and will not hesitate to do so. It could possibly hav a connection with recent Indian comments about Baluchistan where Pakistani military haas been using helicopter gunships and jet fighters against its citizens. This has found absoultely no mention in the western press.
This Time article is good summary of the reasons Bangalore is a prime terrorist target:
Is Outsourcing the Next Terror Target?
I read the news, and then have been bombarded by emails and forwards about it all day long. Why would someone seek to kill a few academics at a conference? IISc is like a sanctuary of peace and tranquility amidst the urban hustle around it. There are almost no vehicles on the roads inside campus. Most residents prefer to walk, at most times immersed in thought, along its tree-lined avenues. A random act of terrorism like this seems like a loss of innocence of some sort.
Moor, it was very likely a terrorist attack. And likely too by rabid fundies. However, the assertion that BLR muslims as a section of society were complicit is inflammatory and very likely untrue. Firstly, there is no proof backing the assertion that more people are wearing salwar kameezes in Bangalore. It is very likely that there are more people noticing a skull cap or a salwar kameez on BLR streets and notching those against some mental list of — suspected terrorist. Secondly, just because there is a terrorist attack by a muslim fundamentalist group does not mean that resident muslims in the city aided or abetted them — I present NYC as a counterexample.
IISc is the intellectual hub of India’s missile programs and strategic studies. The National Institute of Advanced Studies does a lot of strategic work for the Dept. of Defense. It is akin to hitting out at the Pentagon.
Apparantly, the naxalites have stepped up their activities in Karnataka. It could very well be them, although the sophisticated execution points towards Pakistan.
M. Nam
on Naxalites:
Some years ago I was talking to someone involved with law enforcement in India. His theory was that Islamist terror cells were being set up in major cities in India and Bangalore was known to be a perfect target with the number of multinational companies and technical infrastructure concentrated in a relatively small area. This attack marks a new phase in terroism in India, where just like London and Madrid, independant cells are actively looking at expanding their reach to cover much wider areas than they have ever done in the past.
bongdongs wrote:
Really? Check this.
Agreed – this was in Nepal. However, a known strategy of Naxalites is to first hit at government hard targets, and when resources are strained, hit at soft targets such as schools etc. I repeat myself – It’s just a matter of time.
M. Nam
“I’ve been told that Bangalore’s muslims are being radicalised over the last decade. You can see it on the streets – more men with skull-caps and pathani dress, most women with head-scarf.”
So in your dictionary skullcaps/pathani dress=radicalists? Guess what, I wear the loose flowing kurta by choice many a times. But that should not be news to you. Hey after all we are all Arabs. We were born to wear kurtas and hence kill people. The news is my Hindu roommate in Bangalore (you can call him radical too – he wears the tilak and does Puja daily), likes the Pathani style of Kurta more than the traditional silk Maharashtrian kurta and I get one for him most of the times I get one for myself. Congratulations. ting..tong. You’ve got two new radicalised terrorists.
“It’s another thing when people who wore lungi/veshti/dhoti, saris and lehngas, spoke Telugu, Kannada at home for centuries, suddenly (over the course of a few years) switch to salwaar/hijab, Urdu at home and Arabic in mosque.”
Are you holyshit-ting me? So we all speak Arabic in mosques, and after our prayers make nefarious secret plans to blow up everything in sight? So my entire community, majority of them who wear sarees is not a Muslim by your definition? Nor are the hundreds of Muslims who don’t wear hijab? And thanks for significantly reducing the Muslim population by eliminating all muslims from Kerala and Bengal. They don’t speak Urdu at home. Are you trolling or are you flaming? When was the last time you ever met a Muslim? or visited Bangalore? for that matter India?
I also agree with you, it’s another thing that some 0.001% of dhoti/veshti wearing junta in India have also converted to shirts/pants/jeans and behaving like those white westerners. It’s also another matter these few hundreds of Sanskrti speaking Hindus in N.India have converted to the Hindi/Hindustani language in their homes. I miss all those Sanskrit news channels which I used to watch in India. You are so bang on target..that I am at a loss of words.
I wish I could “see” things and come to conclusions as good and effortlessly as you do. You see, my ignorance stems from the fact that I’ve just stayed 5 years in Bangalore. I cannot thank you enough for your “deep” observations.
while i have no concrete data, I remember having read that even in Europe, radicalization of Muslim youth begins with change of dress. I have quite a few friends who agree with the fact that Banglore’s muslim youth have been radicalized. Quite a few think it is related to the fact that they have had not the gains from the IT boom that Hindus and other minority religions did.
Thank chacha nehru and his progenies for that matter. congress has had pusillanimous attitude with respect to muslims. In india sharia courts and qazis are still active, there is no separation of mosque and state then is it. They still subsidize travel for the hajj in mecca. Their policies have helped terrorist as much as pakistani policies. Thank your chacha.
Guru Gulab Khatri, if Chacha was the one who started it, I stand by your side. However if you feel Muslims (sharia courts/qazis whatever) support Hajj subsidy, you might want to rethink over it: Excerpts from the “10. HAJ SUBSIDY section” of this link. Please do read it. It lists all the reasons why many Muslims are opposed to Hajj subsidy. I very rarely agree with the RSS and when I do, it must be highlighted. I’ll just excerpt three points: …. A. Incidentally, in 1997, while disposing of a petition before him, Justice Tanvir Ahmed of the Lahore High Court had ruled that any expenditure defrayed by the government in subsidising hajis was contrary to the Shariat and therefore, wrong. Since then, the Pakistani government has stopped all subsidies for haj pilgrimage.
The editor of Muslim India and former MP, Syed Shahabuddin, has consistently demanded for the last 15 years that the Government of India phase out the haj subsidy. “I have told successive Prime Ministers of the country that this haj subsidy is there because of their political need; it has never been our demand. No Muslim leader has ever demanded subsidy”, he said in an interview to the magazine Communalism Combat two years ago.
B. A report published in the The Indian Express on February 26, 2001, said during the tour of an Indian delegation led by the then foreign minister Jaswant Singh to Saudi Arabia in January 2001, the then Saudi ambassador to India, A. Rahman N. Alohaly, and the Saudi foreign minister, Saud Al-Faisal, had tried to impress upon the Indian delegation that any state subsidy for haj pilgrimage is “wrong”. “Our ulema will help you in explaining to your people that the subsidy goes against the spirit of the Shariat,” Al–Faisal reportedly told the Indian delegation.
C. Abdussattar Yusuf Shaikh, secretary, All India Muslim Personal Law Board and office bearer of a host of Muslim educational institutions is opposed to haj subsidy for the following reasons…… 2) Haj is obligatory, only once in a lifetime and only for those Muslims who are both physically capable of undertaking the journey and have the adequate financial capacity. It is not obligatory for others. The issue of adequate financial ability has also been clearly specified… 4) The money needed for the performance of haj should come out of oneÂ’s own legitimate earning or possession and the amount should be sufficient to meet the entire expenses to be incurred on the performance of haj. Among other things, this includes the entire travel expenses, whatever the mode of travel… (It’s quite list-y so I won’t quote all of it. I’ll just request anyone who thinks Muslims are pro-Hajj subsidy to read it)
It’s anybody’s guess now why the political parties across the spectrum don’t want to get rid of it. Because they all have votebanks to cater to. And come elections, such histrionics go a long way in proving their pro-minority affiliations. Another case in point: Vajpayee’s hilarious promise of recruiting 2 crore Urdu teachers.
Sorry Anna, didn’t want to derail this thread into OT links…but just thought a little clarification on a very common misconception that keeps raising its head every now and then might help.
Is it just me, or anyone else finds it interesting that some of these terrorists are Bangladeshis? I don’t think I’ve ever seen this before.
“Bangla outfit was targeting Andhra STF”
What’s the extent of Islamic radicalization in Bangladesh? Assuming that there must’ve been a lot of goodwill in Bangladesh towards India in the seventies, why is it now becoming anti-India? Knowledgeable mutineers, please enlighten.
Suhail Kazi You wrote:-
That itself provides the answer to who the votebanks are.
I am a Jain and very sympathetic to Indian Muslims. They are my fellow countrymen, full stop. Shame on you who promptly blame’them’. This is exactly what the terrists would like. Yes, terrorists did this and these institutes will learn to take better care. However please remember again and again that most Muslims in India, including many, many in Kashmir want to remain in India and be treated like people. After Gandhi’s asassination, the Pune Brahmins were horribly targeted and destroyed. We do not need these biased blamemongers, prejudiced towards someone without a proper rationale. If anything, we, ‘the other’ should reassure them that we do NOT blame them for what some misguided criminals have done. Yes, some religious practices may have a lot to answer for, but how dare anyone blame the rank and file of all Indian Muslims. Even though many must have been approached and tempted, no one has yet been found with the Osama gang. And it must require a lot of courage to sy No, to these gangsters.
After Gandhi’s asassination, the Pune Brahmins were horribly targeted and destroyed
well, isn’t it true that konkanastha brahmins were extremely influential in the RSS? similarly, it is a point of fact that terrorists tend to be muslim even if muslims do not tend to terrorists. this does not mean that stupid generalizations hold, but it also does not mean that generalizations are not relevant.
check that: transnational terrorists 🙂
“After Gandhi’s asassination, the Pune Brahmins were horribly targeted and destroyed”
Wrongfully maligned and perhaps slandered. But never “horribly targeted and destroyed”.
I feel sorry for the attacks, my condolences. I donot think any community as a whole took part in it. A shotgun approach will never solve anything.
One thing I want to point out (since I go to India very often) – these horrible things will not be that simple if the infrastructure in general is more robust. A lot of things in India becomes extremely “soft targets” because of subpar infrastructure. It is improving but still………….
One example, Indian airports especially towns other than Delhi, Mumbai, etc.
Its simply the fact that ‘they’ engaged in these kind of activities globaly. And whatever the terminology one chooses weather it be ‘defending against proxy warriors’ or ‘jihad back at you’ or ‘war on terror’, the net result is essentialy a struggle between islam and non-islam. Its a global phenomina. Mostly it has to do with the sense of superiority weather it be physical strength or piousness. I remember a wrestling tournament and a muslim kid came in 3rd his father was pissed that he lost to 2 hindus rather than look at it as an achievement that in a contest of nearly 100 participants he made it to 3rd spot. Tom Friedman summed it up well when he wrote that “Muslims are raised with the view that Islam is God 3.0, Christianity is God 2.0, Judaism is God 1.0, and Hinduism is God 0.0.”
Indian Muslims have rarely been found involved in terrorist acts. They have their differences with the mainstream, with the govt and may be with the whole world but continue to prefer India. Some are sick to death of the world Islamic bodies regularly championing Pakistan re Kashmir,while ignoring them and jeopardizing them. And yes, I do believe living in a functioning multicultural, democratic and, yes, secular for the most part, state has moulded them into liberal Muslims. Re A Pakistani minister says they can wipe out all the IT businesses in a few weeks. What would be more impressive is if they could create them in a few weeks. To destroy is not a big deal. Indian Muslims reiterate that Pakis hate them the most, they represent why Pak need not have been created. By the way, Pakis tell me to stop giving the ISI so much importance. Say they are simply not that intelligent!
IC so it was a secular organization that wanted to create a shoot out in the parliament two years ago, and the muslims who kicked hindus out of kashmir valley did that by not terrorizing them. What about the indian muslims who collaberated with Sheikh Omar Saeed ? The facts are what they are. There is a broader pan national islamic identity.’full stop’.
First things first, am I the only one who thought brain-mapping was very sci-fi? Like, Red Earth.
Like Jon Stewart’s Holocaust card, the Gandhi card has been played. And we know that trumps everything else — even reason. Before everyone gets their chuddies in a twist about the Islamo-fascist leanings budding in the bosom of your average Johar on the streets of Bangalore, heeeeeere’s my solution to whole problem —
I declare that since we have the goddamn technology, lets brain-map everyone in the effing country that wears Afghani-style kurtas. That should make JJ Valaya quiver in his jotis. And rightly so. We can keep people’s brain-maps in a little database center in Gurgaon. Whenever you feel you wanna update it, you call a number and talk to a Oompa or Loompa or whoever and they’ll update your political-leanings/psychological stability/happiness index/horniness from the central file server.
That’ll solve the problem for good…. Unless they start wearing pants and confuse the hell out of everyone.
Muslims in India probably feel exactly the same way there as almost all ‘South Asians’ feel here in the West. They are marginalised, all painted with the same ‘terrorist’, ‘radical’, ‘Islamofacist’ (etc. etc.) brush regardless of who they are individuals … or even what the overwhelming majority of their community stands for as a whole. People rant & rave about their treatment in the West, & yet we have people like Guru Gulab Khatri using exactly the same forms of irrational hate-mongering as the NeoCon loonies.
At least the RSS jerks havent experienced the exact treatment for themselves. But people who demonstrate bigotry in spite of suffering the luxury of perspective are really, truly world class morons.
Actually, yes. I do thank Chacha for helping create a secular democracy & understanding the importance of NOT deracinating some of the most deep-seated practices of a people following a different faith. Any such attempt would not only be futile but also wipe out any chance of coexistence in One secular country. It takes a profoundly wise man to have that kind of foresight.
The old vote bank argument. Because of course if they werenÂ’t vote banks, (if only they werenÂ’t allowed to vote) everyone would immediately agree to have them all shot. Guess what? They are a vote bank because they are PEOPLE . Damn right thereÂ’ll be politicians catering to their needs. ThatÂ’s how a democracy works!
No you see you’re missing the point here. The word “they” was put in single quotes by the commenter (correct me if I’m wrong lakshmishakti) to indicate flimsy grounds on which one can possibly define a “they”. If they are Indian, ‘they’ are as much as, and no different from ‘us‘.
Ah yes, a personal anecdote to open all our eyes to the wonderful world of religious hatred & intolerance. Guess what? Anyone can quote dozens of anecdotes to prove just about anything. I know of many instances in Hindu families that routinely spout non-stop anti-Muslim garbage. As IÂ’m sure, do many white families about South Asians. Anecdotes like these prove nothing.
Another stupid way to prove just about anything. Generalise, generalise & generalise like a m*****f*cker.
I could go on, but all this is giving me a headache.
There always someone like an Esa al-Hindi aka Dhiren Barot whom the radicals are looking to recruit. A convertee may have more of a reason to prove themselves worthy of the “cause”.
I am in BLR as I write , and haven’t really had a chance to read all the above comments (in a hurry). But someone mentioned something about BLR being radicalised etc. All I have to say is NOT TRUE. Atleast it doesnt appear that way. Also, I passed through the IIS bulding and more specifically the Tata auditorium, and you do not get the feeling that there was a terrorist attack 2 days before. All I saw today was one police jeep parked outside and maybe one ‘hawaldar’. Life is back to business here.
There were earlier rumblings of Kashmiri militants targeting Bangalore: previous post.
Apparently the terrorists had lobbed four hand-grenades into the conferenece room – none of them exploded. Had they exploded, the casuality figure would have been in dozens. Such a botched operation points to a locally “outsourced” outfit which has very little experience – LeT or other terrorist organisations are more professional and thorough.
As for the tempest that my “pathan dress = radicalisation” comment has caused – I can only roll my eyes in exasperation. Analyst after analyst who has written about Wahabbisation of the sub-continent, Indonesia., Thailand etc have come to the same conclusion: The first noticeable trait of the radicalised muslim appears in the sudden, permanent change of dress, language and entertainment choices. I highlight “permanent” because this is not someone like Suhail(on this board) who wears salwaar on festival days and special occassions. This radicalised muslim will not wear anything else. He will stop watching “obscene” TV shows with skin and divorce themes (probably the last decent thing he will do in his life!). He will force his female folk to do the same. He will start doing namaaz in the office, in front of his co-workers, in the corridor, in his cubicle – even at the risk of losing his job. He will not talk about cricket, Bollywood etc with his friends (whom he will lose soon), co-workers etc.
Are BLR muslims radicalised? No. That would be a sweeping generalisation. Are a significant number of BLR muslims radicalised in the last decade or so? The answer to that is Yes. Is this significant number growing? Is this significant number turning to terrorism? No – not yet. Is this number enough to provide logistical support to terrorists from outside. Yes. Are they providing support? Most likely – without this terrorists cannot operate.
As I said before: Either you are politically correct or you go to the roots of the problem.
M. Nam
lakshmishakti: ” However please remember again and again that most Muslims in India, including many, many in Kashmir want to remain in India and be treated like people.”
While your intentions are noble, I couldn’t agree with you more strongly.
I am a Kashmiri Muslim. And restassured – the overwhelming majority of Kashmiri Muslims [especially the Muslims] would do anything to escape your Indian yoke. For Gods sake, what part of we want FREEDOM don’t you Indian’s understand ? Do you have any idea of the abominations unleashed upon the people of Kashmir by your security forces? If not, I would strongly urge to take some time and review the Human Rights Watch report.
Lakshmishakti: So much for my strongly worded rebuttal. I meant to say – I couldn’t dis -agree with you more.
I have to agree with M.Nam with his comment #.40..
However, the question how does one tackle “radicalism”, and how does one differentiate it with freedom of expression.
YAD
Bull I have no political association with any side in US. Its your desire to conflate every one you dislike be it neocons or what ever with me. generalizing like a motherfucker मादरचोद eh. I have pointing out facts as they are.
.
Well no one can go after any one just b/c they chose to alter their dress. The thing in wealthier societies, the prevention strategy is to monitor ‘potential radical’ closely to see what they are upto. But in indias case in the near long run they cant do so. They dont have the kind of resources to collect and sort through massive amount of data. In indias case(like most poorer countries) they cant do much on the prevention side. So it will have to live with it in the near long term. It will allways be responding to an attack. But some things can be done to create higher level of deterant. Swift investigations and trials with severe punishment will deter a few but not all. Thats a reasonable goal that can be achieved if there is the political will. But the longer term solution is to become smarter(intelligence evesdropping etc).
KushTandon writes: >>how does one tackle “radicalism”, and how does one differentiate it with freedom of expression.
Simple. Remove State support.
Point A is where a muslim does his namaaz, follows her festivals, practices his culture etc, and at the same time has a healthy interaction with non-muslims in the society in the economic, entertainment, political spheres. Point Z is when he/she blows himself up in a subway.
For him/her to get from Point A to Point Z, there are many transformations that have to go through. While many of these transformations B (dress), C(language), D,E(etc etc) in isolation do not violate any laws, there does come a point (let’s say Q) when the transformation, even though not illegal, is bad enough to make the person a non-productive member of society. At this point, the individual has to rely on State support for day-to-day existence. The stronger the State support(Europe), the quicker the transition from point Q to point Z. The weaker the State support(US), the quicker the transition back from point Q to point A. A free-market system aids in this approach.
India’s muslims have been on dole since 1947 in some way or the other. Food subsidies regardless of number of children have been given. They have separate State supported schools and colleges with no accountability. There are calls to give them reservation in govt jobs. There are also calls to give them reservation in IIT’s and IIM’s. Calls for reservations in private sector will not be far behind.
The more State support they get – the worse the problem becomes.
M. Nam
“At this point, the individual has to rely on State support for day-to-day existence. The stronger the State support(Europe), the quicker the transition from point Q to point Z. The weaker the State support(US), the quicker the transition back from point Q to point A. A free-market system aids in this approach.”
You have a point there. Often, I do not agree with you but sometimes I do. However, even in US, there is always (especially these days) a push for state supporting faith. In France, they do not but then they have problems too.
I think the solution might be general progress – but then high-profile terrorists tend to be middle class or upper middle class. I think DesiDudeInAustin (comment #.35) had a brilliant solution.
There is a point here but there are greater cultural influences too. There are some indian (and many other ethnic groups) on dole too in europe and US(much lesser degree) but in general they become more of a lazy bum type who is greatful for his frebees rather than a blame others for keeping them down type. There are internal issues that these folks are grappling with and external policies only influence people upto a degree.
Moornam, You stated The first noticeable trait of the radicalised muslim appears in the sudden, permanent change of dress, language and entertainment choices.
This actually is a fair point. However unless we have some concrete numbers on the percentage of people who turn violent after changing their way of dress, its pretty meaningless to rely on change of dress etc., as any meaningful indicator of the propensity of the dress changers to commit violent acts. I dont believe becoming more religious or traditional has any correlation with becoming a jihadist. Most Muslims in northern states have always worn shalwar kameez, speak Urdu at home, prayers are always offered in Arabic in masjids and so on. IMHO a better indicator of the propensity of any Muslim to become a global jihadist is a change in the religious ideology towards Salafism. Razib on GNXP has various posts on the relation between the Salafists and Global Jihadists. The Asian bombers in England became radicalized when they moved to the Salafi Masjids from the Deobandi Masjids. As far as I can tell, Salafis have not penetrated the Indian Muslim communities. Taking out Kashmir from the equation, would it be a fair statement to make that the non Kashmiri Indian Muslims are not active jihadists in any significant numbers to raise alarm. I might of course be mistaken and if there evidence which would suggest otherwise, I would like to see it.
“India’s muslims have been on dole since 1947 in some way or the other”
Could you please refer to some examples of thos dole. Also I am not asking for proof as much as I am just curious about the type and amount of this dole.
Food subsidies regardless of number of children have been given
Are you alluding to the subsidized food ? Wont that be in proportion to the number of members in the family. I guess you could make a point that if Indian Muslims have more family members than say Indian Hindus they receive more dole per family but that would hardly be a de-motivator to work.
India has a social services program!?!! Bring out the shehnais.