Both ‘Dilbert’ and ‘Doonesbury,’ two of the most popular comic strips in America, just ran desi topics on the same day. The new stereotypes: both kinder and more boring than the old.
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As usual, India and first-genners loom larger on the cultural radar, at least among these blunt instruments of cultural critique, than the second gen:
Absent… personal interaction with South Asians, people’s perception of South Asia itself determines how they treat us. [Link]
Click the pictures see the full strips.
Manish – an interesting piece you wrote there. Have you read Ronald Inden’s “Imagining India”? – brilliantly expounds on some of the points you make earlier in your essay about the obsessive Orientalist perceptions of India. He published a shorter form of the book as an essay in the journal Modern Asian Studies in 1986 – well worth a read.
Would like your opinion on this – despite significant progress on the economic front, it really doesn’t appear as though Indian professionals, whether here in N America, or in India, have gained the respect of the mainstream in N America. Even in cheer-leader Thomas Friedman’s columns, they are patronized as cho-chweet infantalized capitalists. Why do you think that this is the case?
My favorite lines in the Doonesbury comic that you linked to:
🙂
yes, I do find it annoying. Especially coming from India.
2 things which drive me up the wall:
1) When random american (usually white) guy/gal talks to me for a while and then finds out I’m a 1-gen: “Oh you don’t look/sound Indian at all, that’s so amazing!”
That’s supposed to be a compliment?
I usually retort with “Oh, you don’t look/sound American either”.
2) When they see pics of some gorgeous desi actress (think Ash etc) and go “OMG, she’s hot! Are you sure she’s completely Indian?”
I still have to find a good comeback to that…any suggestions, gals?
Sorry for the rant…just wanted to vent 🙂
you know what i love? i love how sometimes i read comments on this site… and they are so profound…that i honestly have no idea what they are talking about.. it’s all very humbling.
some of you guys make all these points… and i just sit there mouth slack… rereading the comment multiple times trying to figure out what you’re saying and looking up all the long words.
=)
I agree with 1) – people would say “oh your english is so good” (this is usually after I tell them I am from India). The retort that I supress with much difficulty is “my english is better than most Americans I come across”
2) One of my Chinese co-students goes ga ga over Indian women. She sees Hindi movies from time to time and thinks that Indian women are the hottest ever – they have the right curves, gorgeous hair and can dance so well 🙂
At least I can attribute the “your english is so good” comments to ignorance. But what I cannot take is the “you don’t look/sound Indian” thing…as if being Indian was something really horrible. WTF???
Well, I guess ultimately it’s our fault. The elite within India which makes it an ideal for kids to achieve Western-ness in speech and mannerisms. Someday in India, we will develop the confidence to be Indian and proud of it.
Ok, that was yet another rant 🙂 oops…
Mr/Ms Piqyyy,
A chinese woman goes ga ga over Indian women???
Mr/Ms Piqyyy
Sorry to burst your balloon, but I think your Chinese friend is only being nice to you. Even an average Indian woman would be outrageously fat by the ridiculous slimness standards that the chinese seem to place on their women.
“I think they genetically engineered her to comply with Western hott-ness standards, but besides that, 100% indian! We indians are very good at science, as you might have heard.”
or
“Yes, strange isn’t it? Our mothers usually try to give birth to us in ugly trees and make sure we hit every branch on the way down.”
or
“I think she’s got the same disease Michael Jackson got. But if you mean Indian parents, oh yes, completely.”
or
“No, actually. The British colonialist oppressors made sure to breed a super race of paler Indians who would take the reins once the counrty became Independant. They’ve enslaved the rest of us darkies, but yes, they are hott.”
Actually my father was totally undecided between an elephant and a Maruti 800. He eventually chose the Maruti because it came out in flying colors in emission tests.
True story.
“OMG, she’s hot! Are you sure she’s completely Indian?”
That’s very ignorant and extremely insulting. Like I said before, there is no one indian look (which I luv), no matter how the american media tries to establish one via stereotyping, etc etc. aargh! Indian make good models because of the global ambiguity – can fit so many different global looks, and this has little to do with skin tone/colour.
One guy told me I don’t look Indian because quote, “I work with a husband/wife couple and they don’t look like you; They have dark under-eye circles”. Idiot. And this was a dude who people considered intelligent. He wondered why I never returned his calls – dumbass. All he could really do is regurgitate Hemingway, anyways.
Basically, there are tons and tons of indian hotties, both male and female. But they are rarely perceived as indian (mistaken for everything else, spanish, brazilian, cuban, persian etc) because people don’t assume they’re indian due to their inane media-generated idea that indians are not attractive. And the fact that they are not recognized as such, further perpetuates this myth, and on and on and on!
….So, all you indian hotties, wear a bindi or kurta next time you go out in all your hot glory. J/K, just give the next person who questions your indianness a swift karate chop to the head. Do it.
Stereotypes exist in every society. Even in India, we have pretty hardcore pre-conceived notions about white people (esp. white women). So it is not surprising that the reverse is also true. The fact that the desi stereotype is appearing more often in mainstream media is an indication that the Indian diaspora is getting more accepted as part of the American society. Chinese and oriental jokes abound in Hollywood movies, cartoon strips and sitcoms. Did anybody see the old South Park episode where they ask the owner of a chinese fast food restaurant is asked to build a wall around south park (since chinese built the Great Wall so they must be good at building walls). The Chinese guy tried hard to build “shitty walls” (in pakka Chinese accent) which were repeatedly brought down by Mongolian warriors. Indian migrants are yet to face that kind of ridiculous stereotypical depiction. But I guess, that is just the American way of saying -“Come on in guys, you are now one of us”.
Another good paper, Manish. Just one thing to add:
In some ways, I think stereotyping of Indians is somewhat more difficult to fight than stereotyping of other minorities. While there are plenty of examples to refute the obvious stereotypes, (ie. 1st and 2nd genners are musicians, artists, lawyers, etc. etc. with and without accents), I don’t think people automatically look at these examples and say, “INDIAN”. This is partly due to the global looks, I mentioned in previous comment; but, also due to the fact that such professions don’t fit the indian career stereotype.
Example: If a person walks into a convenience store and sees a person with brown skin working the counter, they automatically assume Indian because that’s the stereotype. If same person walks into law office and sees the brown skinned person’s twin brother, may not automatically assume indian, because an indian lawyer stereotype doesn’t exist… and who knows Jaggi may just be hispanic, right? LOL. Result: stereotype regenerates itself.
A lot of the bad Indian stereotypes are perpetuated by Indians themselves. In contrast, the chinese for example are much more sensitive about stereotypes.
From my limited experience, chinese/asians in general steer clear of conversations about stereotypes. Indians tend to join in the discussions – typically they badmouth other Indians who have lived in the country for a lesser period of time than they have.
But South Park mocks knowingly.
It mocks Americans for having such limited knowledge of other ethnicities and being so bigoted that some don’t even realize the insulting implication: “she’s really hot. Can she really be from the same part of the world as you, and not perhaps be partly Western?”
Speaking as a whatever gen desi….
Why do straight Indians still get their cheddis in a knot trying to figure out how they should “present” themselves to mainstream America? Just be yourselves.
Camp it up folks. Invite your American friends over for a meal. Kill them with intrinsic Indian curiosity and inclusiveness. They will see beyond the bad haircut.
Check out the gay community. Indians are very welcome…viva diversity….and oh so charming but enigmatic body language.
Neale
thus spake argus
true – so true
I have told you guys that part of my family is Chinese through my brother.>
Indians are their own worst enemies
I never ever seen a Chinese make fun of another Chinese in America, even ABC (American Born Chinese). The Chinese graduate students who were quite westernized would keep quiet (when made fun) or even help/ support FOBs when I was @ grad school.
Same is the case is with French. Try making fun of france in front of someone who has little french blood in them – you will come out with bloodied nose. The office next to mine is a American-French Professor (born and lives in USA and with mother American) – I never seen anyone who more proudly defend France than her. But she likes Peter Sellers – that is a different story.
Neale, it’s nice you’re so happy-go and all, but did you even read Manish’s essay? Stereotyping and discrimination are big problems, and you can hardly make enough sabzi and chapatis for everyone! You may win over an indophile, or two, but for the most part, the masses are ill-informed. The two comic strips in question, are much kinder that what I normally see. So no, these don’t enrage me in the least, but they are examples of what people believe browns are. Very tame examples. Read the paper for goodness sake.
(Also, hate to break it to you Neale, but indians are not always so welcome in the gay community, even when they’re gay. That’s a separate issue itself, but problematic for alot of gay/lesbian/bi visible minorities. End.)
I hear you, sista!
Its a sign that Indians are being accepted in American culture yaar..its all good..
Asok reprazents da FOBs yo..hardworking genius Indian IT guy.. Then you have Apu for the convenience store crowd… and of course Kumar the pot smoking ABCD…from H&K nice spectrum summing up … 98% of desis in this country.. now if only we could find a 1 track uncle…
I don’t agree. I help out immigrants all the time and will defend to the end. One of many examples: at the airport, the stupid trashy attendant was really giving terrible service (rolling her eyes) at this elderly sikh man; he couldn’t understand her, and it didn’t help that she was a meanie and thought she could get away with her crappy service and impatient, bitchy voice because she knew that there was little he could do about it. You see, she had a superiority complex. Enter Ang – needless to say trashy, ooglie chick shut up pretty quickly.
I also tried to help out female immigrants from India (and other countries as well) when I was in school. They rarely needed any help with their english skills, but I did teach them how to stick up for themselves, the “system” and karate, etc.
Also, it’s not Indians that are writing these lame parts for south asians in movies, comic strips etc. So, blaming it on a few inside jokes, which these writers don’t have access to anyways, isn’t cool.
i agree with manish.
i had read this piece on his blog when I visited sepia mutiny first few times.
my comment on Chinese/ French was more a general observation.
Ang,
I salute you for your efforts. Very good. However, you are a minority in your behavior.
Kush
Ang, Beware of analysis paralysis….reading essays and writing about Indianness…jeez…sorry but Indianness cannot be explained in essays…it has to be experienced…that is all i am saying.
Go out and flaunt it.
This sister hates to swing her scissors , unlike her hips 🙂
Neale Neale
You must not know alot of Chinese people then. It happens all the time.
I’ve observed that people often view members of their own ethnicity as being divided and percieve of people of other ethnicities as being monolitic blocks.
“You must not know alot of Chinese people then. It happens all the time.”
Dude, my sister-in-law is Chinese-American. My family friends are Chinese-American professors. I am not talking about stand-up comics. Real people in real houses and am talking in generalities, not nit-picking details and statistics. A lot to do with Confucian culture.
Yeesh.
Lighten up, people. To those of you who think mocking desis in public is a bad thing, you’re wrong. Laughing at ourselves is a very important skill.
Never look to the French for behavior role models, by the way.
You may never see a Chinese person make fun of another Chinese person, but I have. And I’ve seen Koreans, Vietnamese, Nigerians, Lithuanians, Serbs, Croats, Brits, Italians, and all the rest make fun of their own cultures. It’s not shocking. It’s great fun. As often as not, it shows us our own foibles, and even the common idiotic ground that underlies all humanity.
Making fun of an accent or a trait is not the huge cause for alarm people seem to think it is. We’re a stronger set of communities than that.
i have had several friends who are taiwanese or from northern china demand that we leave a public place when a group of cantonese speakers show up. they claim that it is too hard on their ears because the cacophany is too twangy and harsh on their ears….
Salil,
You misunderstood me. I also did not present myself clearly.
I am all up for having fun though ourselves and by others too. Ask Manish, I even support Peter Sellers and Rudyard Kipling. We openly disagreed a few months ago. I do not whether you visited Sepia Mutiny back then. Yet, I respect Manish’s viewpoint.
I was more commenting on something more sublime – I was looking for empathy with a fellow men. It doesn’t have to be Indian- it could be Korean, European et al.
Even in India, upper class/ caste have very little empathy for ones below. Don’t you agree. People in India die on streets and others walk by nonchalantly.
First of all, if it wasn’t obvious already from my various musings, I’m not white, so yes, I have experience as a brown. Furthermore, I don’t read essays and take them as true: I read them, then ask questions, add/compare my own experience, or other similar data. That’s called critical thinking, not over-analysis. Finally, I read the essay before knocking it or what others have to say.
On that note, I do have a question for Manish. Where did you get that data about more racism in Canada/UK than the U.S.?
Kush,
I’m sorry you’ve had bad experiences with other Indians, but really, I have seen people come together in times of need. I understand my unique position of having some cultural background and understanding for fellow indians, whether of indian background or indian-born; thus it makes sense for me to help such a person if required. Now, I probably won’t go out of my way to just converse with a person, just because they are of the same background (especially if they are of the opposite sex), but if my help is needed, I’ll be there. I think alot of people, here, feel the same.
I’m not sure if you are referring to the judgemental stance that alot of Indian parents have (but not all) that Bong Breaker pointed out in a previous posting? But maybe that has something to do with why some indians may ignore other indians???? Maybe there is just too much pressure with judging lest you be judged, so it’s easier to ignore others??? That would be a stressful lifestyle.
Or, maybe you are referring to social issues??? I don’t know, just speculating. Like I said, I really don’t go out of my way to talk to someone who is brown: there has to be more than that. This forum is unique, in that respect.
I hardly doubt this is unique to India. In Canada, people ignore the deplorable living conditions on alot of aboriginal reserves. I’m not saying that huge improvements don’t have to be made (I hate the argument of well things are worse elsewhere, or the lesser of two evil arguments) but that attitude is not unique to India.
Now back to my original point: It’s not Indians that are writing these lame parts for south asians in movies, comic strips etc. So, blaming it on a few inside jokes, which these writers don’t have access to anyways, isn’t cool.
ahaha – just read the vij’s essay and the pledge of dual allegiance –
there’s another doc out there you might find interesting. Here’s an excerpt
This happened to me once, at a job interview. The HR person who was interviewing me said “Your English is very good” and I couldn’t hold it back, I ended up saying “Thank you, so is yours”..lol.. didnÂ’t go down too well. DidnÂ’t get the job, but hey I still have my gonads.
I may be stating the obvious here, but I donÂ’t think making fun of your own community is a bad thing. ItÂ’s not just something that happens here in the Sates, with regard to FOBs and ABCDs. It happens in India too, among the cool kids and the geeks, even on main stream TV. I remember seeing Ads on MTV India with a character called Quick Gun Murugun (they were hilarious). Anyway, as long as itÂ’s in good fun, I think its all good. However, people who try do distance themselves from people who they perceive are beneath them with regard to coolnes, because they derive a lot from a culture that may not be perceived as cool in America..thats bullshit.
it’s the entire premise behind “Jassi Jaise Koi Nahin”…
the basic point about “is she/he indian” is colorism
colorism has got to go. not to lambast anyone because we’d all do it. we’re not even the only ethnicity to do it. but the basic thing is, colorism has got to be examined, discussed, and then, its got to go
there’s another world out there where we’re not all trying to be something we are not. a world without colorism
people would say “oh your english is so good” (this is usually after I tell them I am from India)
For this sometimes I say,
“You know what, When I was in Mars people there said the same thing, I am very glad that you have the same opinion”.
Some people do laugh at it.
There’s also a gender thing there, methinks. If there was a guy who was a total nerd/dork like Jassi, that might not be considered that bad.
I grew up being a complete geek/nerd/dork in India, and the reason I did not feel the need to be otherwise was that it got me all the attention and adulation from everyone. Among kids, I guess the stigma against being a nerd is not that strong in many Indian middle-class schools as it is in the US. And that was probably the biggest shock for me when I came to the US, that just being smart/educated don’t mean much here, it’s all about social skills.
That was a digression. My point was that a female nerd like Jassi probably does not earn that much respect as her male equivalent in India so Jassi might not be the right example.
I think almost every desi on an F-1 visa can relate to the whole ‘ your english is sooo good’ thing’.
I experienced it at the airport itself, being asked the question by two sweet old british ladies who were standing in line with me. It being the first time, I launched into a long winded explanation of the legacies of colonialism and the Raj, but have hence learnt to shrug it off with a smirk.
people would say “oh your english is so good” (this is usually after I tell them I am from India)
I dont think its that unreasonable or weird or condescending to compliment foreigners on their command of English especially when English is not their mother tongue. It is of course problematic when kids born and raised in the US are complimented on their english skills.
Ofcourse its not condescending. What is ridiculous is that in India, Indians feel ashamed at not knowing English. It will extremely rare for a FOB to admit that English is his/her second language and they may not be as comfortable in it as native people of US. Its the effing slave mentality that just wont go … (IMO, of course)
When they see pics of some gorgeous desi actress (think Ash etc) and go “OMG, she’s hot! Are you sure she’s completely Indian?”
Over the years, I have heard the same crap about Koreans, Blacks and the Chinese from sometimes very liberal and ‘wordly’ white americans.
Unfortunately, I have even seen/heard fellow desis also pull the same crap when speaking about Sri Lankans, Tamils, Keralites and Bangladeshis.
Yes, but Jassi has now been turned into a “cool” character, with different reactions from people in comparison to her previous persona. Same situation as with Dwayne Wayne in A Different World all those years ago.
Unless Sony TV is behind in its episodes of Jassi compared to the UK and India, and you haven’t seen her transformation yet…..
Ofcourse its not condescending. What is ridiculous is that in India, Indians feel ashamed at not knowing English. It will extremely rare for a FOB to admit that English is his/her second language and they may not be as comfortable in it as native people of US.
Yet again, RC speaks truth to power! RC, I agree with you. I have noticed the same trend.
What?!! You mean if you’re not the default (white) you can’t speak perfect English? Or, if you are not the default, you can’t have been born here? Amazing!
LOL. “What country are you from? Seriously, what country are you from? I mean where are your parents from? No, where are your grandparents from?”
Not white = can’t possibly be American, Canadian, etc. My parents are brown – how did you think I’d pop out? White? Just cuz I’m born in the west?
Are these questions really asked to advance the person’s, who is asking them understanding? No, because there are never any follow-up questions – a dead giveaway regarding their motives. The question is asked so that person can systematically identify and group you in a comfortable schema (err… stereotype) in his/her head. Alot of people do this, but this is just plain lazy. I can smell this a mile away and I refuse to answer such questions on a case by case basis, of course.
I am not confused about my identity whatseover, but everyone else is.
I think you ARE making a big mistake here. A lot of ‘FOBs’ do grow up with English as some sort of “first language”, mayble not the native tongue.
For me (a ‘FOB’), I grew up speaking Bengali with my parents, but using English liberally in it. I learnt English almost simultaneously with Bengali. I dunno how you’d define 2nd language. I think of English as one of my ‘native’ languages. I can express myself much better and comfortably in English than in any other language.
I am not always comfortable with American slang, which doesn’t mean I am not comfortable with English.
Yes I agree that English is considered a sign of education and upper-classness in India, it is also treated as an “Indian” and not a “foreign” language by many people.
So no, I am a ‘FOB’ and I WILL NOT “admit” that I am not comfortable with English. Take that however you want…
Not when that foreigner has been using English all of his/her life.
I seriously doubt those very same people would compliment someone from France for their English.
Wrap your head around this, my friends (RC and AM). Many people do grow up in Indian cities with English as a “first” language.
And I don’t agree with fellow desis who make similar statements about other nationalities.
Sorry if my posts sound a bit virulent, I think this topic hits a raw nerve. And listening to M.I.A while posting this isn’t really helping my composure:)
I seriously doubt those very same people would compliment someone from France for their English.
I have seen White Americans compliment Europeans for their english skills numerous times. I am not sure why do you believe that a French or a German person who speaks fluent albeit accented english would not get compliments for their english skills. I have seen it too many times to know that it happens quite frequently.
Wrap your head around this, my friends (RC and AM). Many people do grow up in Indian cities with English as a “first” language.
I am not necessarily disputing your assertion. But we all know that an overwhelming majority of Indians do not speak English as a first languae so its perfectly reasonable for an American to compliment the very tiny minority of Indians who do in fact speak good english.
Those of us from the 2nd-Generation in the UK don’t get so much hassle about our ability to speak English, but our parents certainly do. Maybe a little less these days, but definitely until about 10 years ago many of the locals would either speak to them excessively slowly & loudly or would ask them openly “Do you speak English ?”.
It was particularly bad in the case of Indian mothers who happened to prefer wearing saris or salwaar-kameezes, although some of the fathers would also end up being on the receiving end of such treatment (which would be particularly ironic if your father happened to be a highly-educated professional such as a doctor, chartered accountant etc).
With regards to the “you don’t look Indian” issue, I think it’s because there’s a lot of assumptions made about what the “average” Indian actually looks like, and the amount of information the Western media would project in these areas was fairly limited until the recent increasingly-high profile of Bollywood (at least here in the UK). The dominant images people would see would be a) poverty and b) the fact that most of the Indians concerned would look more “black” than Caucasian. The fact that there is a huge amount of racial diversity within the Indian population isn’t something people were exposed to, despite the fact that a Hispanic/Persian-looking person from north India is actually as “Indian” as his/her darker counterparts.
I grew up in Indian city (several cities) too. None of the cities had English as its main language. I dont have actual numbers but less than 10% people in India are comfortable in English. So It would be a DEVIATION from norm if some Indian FOB has English as his/her native language.
Or speaking TO Sri Lankans…This Indian guy assumed I was Indian too (which is fine in itself, btw. Close enough, yaar?) and when I said “Sri Lankan” he not only looked shocked, he kept insisting that I couldn’t be. (not so fine, btw.)
He had met other Sri Lankans, he said. And I didn’t look like them, he said. I looked more “Indian,” he said. I couldn’t be SL, he said, because “You’re not as dar…I mean, your feautures are sharper.. I mean, more North Ind..”
nice.
He started off thinking he was complimenting me, but faltered when he saw my eyebrows climb up into my hairline.
Some of us Southies are very happy being not-sharp featured darkies. Thank you, come again!
“You’re not as dar…I mean, your feautures are sharper.. I mean, more North Ind..”
Maybe Razib can enlighten us on whether there is a preference for ‘sharper features’ in different cultures along with some data on that.