Philadelphia, September of 2002.
“OhMyGod”, was the greeting my mummy blurted out instead of her customary, “Hi, mone”. “When did THAT happen?”
“Two weeks ago, Ma.”
“But…why?”
I shrugged. “Felt like it.”
“You know that’s not something a Christian girl should do,” she replied, eyebrows undulating with disapproval and consternation.
“Only Hindu girls can get their noses pierced?”
“Only Hindu girls SHOULD get their noses pierced.”
“Pashu tatti. It’s a cultural thing, Ma. Not religious.”
My mother snorted before telling me where I could store my opinions on culture and religion. “It IS a Hindu tradition. Maybe even a Muslim one. Try it with someone dumber than your Mother, edi.”
Anne Martin, the principal of Durban Girls High School in South Africa should have called my mom when she needed an expert opinion on whether piercing one’s nose is a “culturally-based rather than religious” practice. 😉
Who is Anne Martin? Why should she defer to my almighty Mom? Read on:
Sunali Pillay, 16, took her case to the Durban Equality Court claiming that she was being unfairly discriminated against by her Durban Girls High School which was not allowing her to wear a nose ring in accordance with her religious beliefs.
The teenager’s mother, Navaneethum Pillay, told magistrate A C Moolman that the nose ring was not considered jewellery according to the Hindu religion, but rather a family tradition and a cultural practice followed when a girl reaches puberty…
The school principal, Anne Martin, told the court wearing the nose ring was in direct contravention of the school’s code of conduct.
She said the school’s code of conduct was clear on body piercing and expert opinion obtained confirmed that nose rings were “culturally-based rather than religious.”
:+:
Thanks FOBish, for this tip. We ABCDs love you too. 😉
:+:
O’ya Bula-
Clicking that photo should take you to Flickr, where you can see my defiled nose clearly. 😉
I had a long argument with management at WDW, when I worked there. Spanning several months, I was able to convince them that my multiple earrings were “a cultural thing” and exempt from their policies. Seeing as I worked at the multicultural lovin’ EPCOT center… it worked.
Upon hire, every Disney “cast member” gets a 2″ “Look Book” detailing every single solitary facet of appearance, what is and isn’t acceptable… right down to deoderant and kadche. So I wrote off Victoria’s Secret on my taxes, seeing as my employer required it… 🙂
I did hold out on getting the nosepin til after I quit, not wanting to push my luck. Plus there’s no India pavillion at EPCOT 🙁
so where is the pic of you [ANNA]with your nose ring ??
WHAT?! i’ve never been. i had no idea. bastards.
“Pashu tatti” ha ha! That is funny. I hadn’t heard that before. I guess it derives from bullshit. Mogambo khush hua! Oh wait … I’m Gabbar.
lol, this was SUCH a huge deal at my all girls catholic high school. They threatened to expel my friend because she got the tiniest little nose ring (a little silver ball). Her dad had to come in for multiple meetings with the principal. Then she was allowed to come to class with a bandaid on her nose. haha, it was great. the bandaid was massive whereas you could barely see the nose ring.
sonia– sounds about right for a catholic school. 😉
:+:
you can see the flickr pic in your choice of sizes, if the rock in my nose ain’t visible enough for you. 😀 but you probably already knew this, since you’re all on flickr…right?
Is it really? I know a number of Christian girls (in India) who have nose piercings – many of them being relatives.
who knows? i come from an ultra-orthodox family– i wasn’t allowed to wear pottu/bindis b/c THOSE were considered hindu. lehngas were considered north indian. (thank goodness she’s over THAT bit of idiocy).
at the same time, sometimes it seems like our counterparts in India are a bit more “liberated”, no? i remember the last time i went to Kerala, i was 14 and my hair touched the back of my knees. my female first cousins were shocked and awed, since none of THEM had hair that went past a shoulder blade. i was totally bewildered– my father had made me grow out my hair b/c it’s what “good Kerala girls do”. i couldn’t believe how liberal THEY were and how conservative i was. perhaps nose rings are like that. moms left india in ’72, i think.
you could very well be right. 🙂
Can you believe it? They had some BS makeshift outpost in the World Showcase (where all the suitable countries live) that lumped India, Africa, and something else together. Basically it was 2 huts that sold Simba toys and some crap that Pier 1 wouldn’t touch.
Then again, given how they treat their J-2 labor in the EPCOT countries, at least there is no India pavillion. ugh.
And what about the henna?
I thought that was a Hindu-Muslim thing?
Wondering, what is the origin of the use of Henna on the hands? I assume the use of Henna in one’s hair springs from bad taste.
Like silver crops and pince-nez’s, it’s an affliction peculiar to the elders, an ATD (auntie-transmitted disease).
the whole reason for the dorky pose in that picture (slightly updated!) is, it (july of 2005) was the first time i had henna done. i was attending a Hindu ceremony between a Guju and a Rajasthani, so i guess it was a normal thing to do. no matter. i was mad excited, yo. 😉
yeah, christians don’t do THAT either. and again, my mom rolled her eyes when she saw the picture. so it was totally worth it. 😀
Omigod ANNA, this is dead right. I was 13 when I moved to the US, and within 2 months, all my uncles and aunts who’d been here for like, TWENTY YEARS, would go off about how “Amrikan” I was becomming, that no “decent Sri Lankan girl” would wear shorts, that my attitude was becoming “rude, like these Amrikans” blahfuckingblah.
When I finally shaved my legs (cause all the kids at my US school were pointing and giggling at my hirsuit limbs) my mom honestly acted like I was preparing to walk a red-light district. All this drama over makeup, hair products and above-the-knee skirts….and when I went back to SL by myself jsut 5 years later, I found my female cousins there squabbling with their brothers over who used the razor last.(!!!)
While ‘dating’ was a four letter word to my relatives over here, my beautiful, picky older cousin in SL finally fell for, and married, a Christian man seven years her junior. She’s Buddhist.
Immigrant groups hold on to this really warped/nostaligic view of their homeland. Usually has nothing to do with the reality. And it’s very bloody annoying for the kids.
/two cents>
I assume the use of Henna in one’s hair springs from bad taste.
most of the religious wackos in bangladesh (muslims) have henna in their beards. i asked my uncle, who is a tableeghi muslim preoccupied with proper practice, if that was cool and he said yeah, as long as dudes weren’t too flamboyant about it. muslims do henna at weddings too, and some complain that it’s hindu, but brown muslims wedding traditions are mostly just derived from the cultural milieu (hindu) since in islam marriage is a simple contractual affair and not a sacrament.
Immigrant groups hold on to this really warped/nostaligic view of their homeland.
i recently visited bangladesh with my parents (resident in the USA for 25 years) and it is clear they are aliens there as well. human identity is socially mediated, and it seems the norm for isolated groups who are extracted out of context A to B to preserve the state of A at a temporally fixed time (when they were transferred). i think cultural evolution is faster in larger social networks.
one example is footbinding: it disappeared after the communist revolution in china proper but lasted in parts of sarawak and sabah in malasyian borneo among the chinese living there until the 1970s.
at the same time, sometimes it seems like our counterparts in India are a bit more “liberated”, no?
Very true. Often, the immigrants are sort of stuck in time, they continue the traditions of the time they leave their homeland. when they go back, many immigrant communities are surprised to learn that things have changed there too.
and btw, it also applies to language. quebecois is famously quaint in comparison to the french of france proper (sounds “hickish”) because of archaisms.
is this serendipitous or what? i just finished teaching a class on the exact same things that are being talked about above. and yes it is true that most diasporic communities (especially south asian) place an enormous amount of effort on preserving the old land’s ‘culture’ and ‘tradition.’ and yes, in most cases it is the woman’s body which becomes the site for cultural reproduction.
I assume the use of Henna in one’s hair springs from bad taste.
For one thing, it is a natural hair-dye. Muslim girls use them as nail polish as well, while other paints are not allowed on nails as per islamic law 🙂
Anna darlin thanks for the pic update. I now have the image of ur nose photo-pasted in my head. And, btw, you look wiccckedddd in that pic 🙂
I am not so sure of this. Although I hear this quite often. My dad still watches BW hindi movies, mostly. It is just nostalgia, not stuck-in-time-ness. I think on average desi parents in America are more liberal than their counterparts in the homeland. I think the fact that they are a bit different than the really fresh FOBs makes people think they are stuck in time.
Razib,
I am disappointed by your comment. I was hoping for a dissertation on Hindu-Christian admixture in Kerala. : )
Anna,
Bangles too I see. I hope you don’t mind me asking, but the sleeve of your blouse is elbow length – is this an intentional stylistic choice?
I do like kohl though. I find Black&Whites photographs of a certain era; the women with heavy duty kohl and little or no other makeup, very striking.
I am disappointed by your comment. I was hoping for a dissertation on Hindu-Christian admixture in Kerala. : )
?
Excuse me for taking this thread further off the beaten path, but…
This is a fascinating phenomenon, especially when it is sustained over generations. Or millenia. I’ve read that, in Ethiopia, Christianity has been preserved in its “original” state as it was shortly after the time of Christ, because Ethiopian Christians were cut-off from the rest of the Christian world for so long. (How did they survive without a pope and going on crusades and burning people at the stake?) A similar story for Ethiopian Jews, who I’ve heard believed they were the only Jews in the world until this century.
What about first century Christians who settled in India? Anybody know much about their practice?
I am. Dead sure. It’s something I moan about the whole time. My family came to the UK in the 80s, when I was a wee fella. Most British Asians came over in the 60s/early 70s. We’re still poles apart in so many ways. The backwards attitudes of a vast swathe of British Asians astounds me. These ‘values’ are passed onto their sprogs, culminating in people my age who are bizarrely conservative and stuck in a time warp. It ain’t nostalgia if you’ve never been to India tef. (not referring to you, I mean brown people who are British/American/Canadian etc born and raised)
at the same time, sometimes it seems like our counterparts in India are a bit more “liberated”, no?
I could imagine how you guys would have been brought up here. One good example is my distant uncle, who came to US in the 70’s. I stayed in his home for 2 weeks. This was my first visit to his home and one thing I carefully observed is when it comes to teaching their kids about culture and morality they goback to their good olden days in India and teach the same stuff to their kids. Which is not wrong from their prespective. unfortunately the kids born here are the victims of this.
In contrast India, after liberalization of the economy in the 90’s became more open to western products, movies and started liking anything western. Here the marketing is the key. All these western products were marketed in Hinglish, rather than complete English or Hindi. Imagine spiderman speaking Tamil, Hindi. yes, this shit happens in India. All the blockbuster movies in Hollywood are dubbed in regional languages and they make good money, sometimes overthrowing the movies made in local.
Also another very important thing is Indian girls winning the numerous Miss world and Miss universe titles in the last decade alone. Each and every girl next door wanted to either look like these models or had a dream of becoming a beauty queen one day. Every street in every city started having Miss beauty queen contest. People started liking these things and slowly attitudes have started changing…
Its been 5 Years for me here in US and I havent been back to India yet, but when I speak to people who have come recently come from India, they say that if I go back I will find a lot of changes in India.
Flyovers and cash machines, for starters 😉
“Its been 5 Years for me here in US and I havent been back to India yet, but when I speak to people who have come recently come from India, they say that if I go back I will find a lot of changes in India.”
In last 5 years, I have been averaging once a year to India. I have seen tremendous change (good and bad – both), almost unbelievable. Something like, people tell me about China went through. Some of your points FOBish are dead-on.
However, in 80-90s, when I used to go to India. nothing looked different, it was almost painfully static.
Razib,
I would have thought you would have a posted a genetic/ethnographic explanantion.
BongBreaker,
My experience has been a little different. I think when people make the comparison between our parents and the FOBs, all too often the generational difference between the two groups gets ignored.
Would you say your parents are more or less liberal/westernised/modern compared to your parents siblings in India?
Pretty much in agreement with everything above. I went on a visit to India a year ago and found that the tables had turned on me. All of a sudden everyone (by which I mean people in Bomaby ;)) was guzzling booze and clubbing every night and canoodling (by which I mean PDA, something I never expected in India) with their significant others. TV was full of barely-attired models and writhing, pour-on-the-baby-oil dancers.
Needless to say, I felt like a bit of an idiot in my rush to cover myself up with the baggiest clothes I owned. No, wait, I’m still being too soft on myself. The sad truth is, folks, I was uncool. 🙁
I’d even venture that immigrant parents don’t carry the values of the time that they left India, but rather the values of the time in which they were children. It’s really the only example of parenting and family skills that they have, drawing on their own upbringing.
My dad being born in the mid-late 40s, carries my Dadaji’s value system and the values of the lovely sisters in Catholic schools of 50s-60s India in many ways. Fortunately for me, he’s the freakishly progressive one in his family…
when I went back to SL by myself jsut 5 years later, I found my female cousins there squabbling with their brothers over who used the razor last.(!!!)
Cicatrix, if one day I read about a Sri Lankan Olympic swimming champion, I’ll say you clued me in first. There’s nothing quite as funny as a bunch of hyper-straight, very buff guys meticulously helping each other shave.
OT–does anyone know how India’s Sephardic Jews feel about piercing?
Immigrant communities certainly can have some extremely moribund ideas about life in the “motherland”. ItÂ’s sometimes hilarious how warped these cultural hand-me-downs can become. I remember my hindu relatives in Trinidad explicitly supporting PakistanÂ’s cricket team over the West Indies, the reason being that there werenÂ’t enough Indians on the latter.
I would have thought you would have a posted a genetic/ethnographic explanantion.
for what? i tend not to moot genetic differences between groups on this weblog much cuz it isn’t relevant to most of the things you are talking about. genetics i bring up in terms of phylogenetic ancestry (claims people make around her sometimes being incorrect or imprecise).
Or millenia. I’ve read that, in Ethiopia, Christianity has been preserved in its “original” state as it was shortly after the time of Christ, because Ethiopian Christians were cut-off from the rest of the Christian world for so long. (How did they survive without a pope and going on crusades and burning people at the stake?) A similar story for Ethiopian Jews, who I’ve heard believed they were the only Jews in the world until this century.
ethiopian christians have been in touch with the coptic patriarch of egypt for 1500 years. it seems that their version of christianity was brought by syrian jacobites, which is theologically monophysite, like coptic, armenian and some syrian rite malayalee christians. some practices that are more “jewish” like circumcision or pork aversion likely predated christianity. in sum, their christianity isn’t more ancient, just different (it is less greek and roman influenced, like western christianity, and more syrian-semitic in tincture). i don’t know that the falashas were totally out contact, jewish travellers mentioned them having kingdoms in northern ethiopia, etc. etc.
the bene israel of the bombay area seem to have preserved a pre-talmudic form of judaism (some of the same, and more, can be said of the falasha, the ethiopian jews [aka beta israel]). the cochin jews were long in contact with the diaspora so they tend to practice world normative judaism (ie; talmudic judaism).
Christianity has been preserved in its “original” state as it was shortly after the time of Christ, because Ethiopian Christians were cut-off from the rest of the Christian world for so long
also, ethiopia was likely christianized after the roman state adopted christianity. the official dates are i think usually in the 4th century, right around the time constantine adopted christianity, but almost certainly the full conversion was not completed until 1-2 centuries later. so, if the hypothesis is to hold ethiopian christianity should preserve features of 5th century christianity. as it is, it is, as i said, a monophysite variant, which was prevelant in the non-greek regions of the eastern byzantine empire (armenia, syria and egypt). on the brown related note, i believe that many syrian christians owe ultimate alleigence to the jacobite patriarch in antioch, a transfer from an earlier alliegence to the nestorian patriarch in baghdad….
my mom actually took me to get my nose pierced… and when i started working as a teacher i had to defend my nose ring.
ugh what a pain.
Okay, firstly Durban Girls High is an uppity school that is very big on all its students prescribing to their principals. You have to wear the exact uniform issued by the school. No frills. Any other school you could get away with your hijab and nose rings and as many piercings as you want. Secondly the nose ring has never had any religious significance in South Africa; kids pierce their nose cos it is fashionable! South Africans have been isolated from the rest of the world and have lost 85% of their culture. DonÂ’t you love ApartheidÂ… SA is big on school uniform, and teenagers will always find a way around it and then get their parents hyped.
Oh I forgot to add, I am a Durban Girls high alumniÂ…..:) we got in trouble for wearing funky socks!!!
Wow, fascinating, Razib. Guess I came to the right place to get all that stuff cleared up. And I’m glad to see you gave up atheism over the course of this thread! Must have decided to convert to monophysite Jacobianism.
monophysite Jacobianism.
wasting time in the lab, not at home, so different name showed up. but btw, monophysite jacobianism would be rather hilarious. disophytes to the guillotine!
Yeah, when I got mine done, my mom used the following arguments:
(1) It’s just a fad, I can’t believe you did it. (2) Women in our part of India don’t (when I gave her the list of my aunts who had pierced noses, she said “I don’t know what’s wrong with them.” Seriously, Ma, if you’re going to lie – make it good!) (3) You’ll never get a job
Every year she used to ask me to take it out as her Mother’s Day present. Not going to happen! (I just stopped asking her what she wanted. 🙂 )
hehh..my mom tried a different tack when I showed up with a (silver hoop) nose ring: 1. It’s going to make your nose look bigger 2. How will you blow your nose? You’ll get snot stuck on it! 3. Your pimples just got better, and now you put a hole in your face!
sucks to admit – she was right on all counts…
I think that one of the reason that immigrant families hold on to their culture stronger than their relatives back home is so that their kids do not embrace the local culture of the land – at least they try to.
And that is why they send their kids to all these culutral schools, and you end up with 2G kids who play the sitar, sing carnatic classical music, and know the bhagavat gita inside out. Whereas back home there are no horse blinders on for no fear of any sort of cultural invasion.
Alright guys so are we going to move beyond primitive ‘nose’ piercings and on to other sorta piercings….I guess we need a pic up there to induce the topic
LOL! This post took me back to my engineering days in Mysore when for a fad , my friend put a “thingy” through her eyebrow, and during the Final “viva” exam, the proctor was quizzing more about her brow-hoop than the subject, so without batting an eyelid she said it’s a custom in her “tribe” LOL…(she’s from Gujrat)..He believed it and she passed the exam.
OT : I have noticed some Indian aunties (some of them raised here themselves) bitching about American born Desi girls “scantolous” dresses.. I’m like what It’s ok if “THEY” wear it but not our girls??…SHEESH
It’s going to make your nose look bigger.
I once had a girl tell that she didnt wear a nose ring because it would bring attention to her big nose.(she thought her nose was too big, I thought it was just fine)
And foam parties !!!
It’s a class thing in India, some people consider it lower-class. But a small silver stud at the tip of a long, proud nose is just delicious.
My brother tried flipping this argument around and arguing he needed to wear small gold hoops because that’s the way the rajas rolled. That didn’t work too well with the parental units.
I recall some of the Brahmin kids in school sporting thin golden hoops post upanayana (sacred thread ceremony). One day these guys were hanging with the geek-squad with me, the next day they’re cooler than the guy that shaved and smoked when he was 12. Ofcourse, that was till they got really insufferable and forced the rest of us to squeal on them. The rest of the class soon found out that the gold hoops came with hours of fasting and praying and being grounded.
Tween street cred can be such a slippery slope.
When I told my dad that his oldest brother has pierced ears he told me “not to talk rubbish.” I insisted (and I’m the one who sat on his lap as a child.) Our last trip to Malaysia, my uncle confirmed it for me. Oddly, my dad’s youngest brother also has his ears pierced (yet another uncle claims that my grandparents were sick of waiting for a girl – 9 boys in a row! And then, finally, two girls.)
I think guys wearing earrings is a recurring fashion trend among browns. I’ve got earrings in both ears but i took them out while i was in the old country last summer, i get enough gay jokes from the uncles here, but a few always say their grandfathers or their grandfathers’ grandfathers wore them back in the day