Also, I urgently require that you not be so “Jim Crow” (Thanks, Al Mujahid).
This is outrageous, y’all:
Posted On : 17 August 2005
URGENTLY REQUIRED
A leading company in the automotive business requires the following personnel to be located in Abu Dhabi and Beda Zayed city branch
DIESEL MECHANICS
ELECTRICIANS
MECHANICS
PAINTERS
DENTERS
LIGHT & HEAVY DRIVERS
Applicants should have a relative Diploma with minimum 3 years experience in Automobiles industry.
UAE D/L is a must for drivers.Indians are not preferred to apply.
Fax: 02-6767708
P.O Box 29699 Abu Dhabi
Just one more reason why it’s a part of the world I’m not fond of…the minuscule silver lining is, less jobs for brown people means less brown people in the gulf, which means less stories like this.
anna, razib, jay, al mujahid – My bad. That post was rather belligerent sounding! While some people do things like drunk dial when under the influence, I write incoherent posts on Sepia Mutiny. The rant I initially posted stems from a series of frustrations that I unfairly took out on participatns of this discussion. For starters, I’m always irked by apparent concern for the situation facing South Asians in the gulf when for the most part (not on Sepia mutiny) diasporas based in the West are incredibly guilty of turning their nose up and maligning desis in the Gulf because they weren’t the upper class, ultra educated ones that were allowed to enter the States in the 60’s and 70’s. When I’ve talked to many american desi friend’s parents about the migrant labour situation there, their immediate answer is “well, its their fault. Why do they go there in the first place?” Although I’m really glad that our generation here gives a shit, is paying attention and trying to discuss what goes on with desis elsewhere, most of the anecdotes shared don’t really reveal anything new but rather contribute to the cloud of myths and stereotypes surrounding the region – ex. “indians get them addicted to booze and drugs” e.t.c e.t.c…. The categorization of indian labourers as morally degenerate is key to their continued oppression. For example, labourers for construction companies live in really shitty parts of town in overcrowded quarters, cramped in tiny rooms often without basic amenities such as running water and electricity. Locals (poorer usually Shia Arabs) that live in the same area constantly complain that labourers maintain “vice dens” where drinking is rampant, bootleg liqour is sold, prostitutes are around e.t.c e.t.c. They’re painted as a major threat to the superior morality inherent in Arab/Islamic culture, as a contaminating presence that rots the country from inside. Local politicians who scapegoat ……. have to run.. will continue post later..
how can a culture that discriminates be morally superior?
Wow Razib, for someone who frequents a “South Asian” site, you seem to know very little. I also find amazing how you’d like us all to know how you actually have a life by bringing up your frikkin’ girlfriends in every bloody post. Get over it. A Sardar is a Sikh. There is nothing PC or non-PC about it. But the word Sardar is not just used for references to Sikhs, and I don’t know it’s exact meaning wither. Something like “chief” or “leader” or something.
Second, as someone who studied in America, I have to say that I saw and heard more about castes and shit in USA than I ever have in New Delhi. It is impolite to ask somebody what their caste is – because the only reason you would want to know is to judge them. So nobody ever asks that question in New Delhi, and to the parts of India that I have been exposed. The only place where it was blatantly on display was when I went to Hardwar to release my grandma’s ashes into the river. Apparently, the Pandit who performs the last rites is determined according to you cast. Apart from that one disturbing apparition, I have never had to deal with caste in any form or in anyway in my day to day life in Delhi. What happens in the villages, I couldn’t tell you. But then I’m sure the heart of Alabama isn’t exactly declaring Diwali a public holiday either.
Second it is an established fact that North Indians – particularly Punjabis and Kashmiris, but not exclusively, are much whiter-looking than the rest. When I say whiter-looking, I’m not just talking about skin colour, but facial features as well. I don’t say this with any pride or chauvinism or as though this makes superior in any way, but simple truth. I’m a punjabi who’s lived in Delhi most of his life. I found it fucking insulting when I went to America to have white people tell me I don’t look Indian. But then when the brown people also said I didn’t look Indian, that was the last straw. This could be a reason why so many Punjabis come to your site to find out about their genetics. Maybe we’re all bastard children of Englishmen. On the other hand maybe we wandered over from the Caucasus like OTHER CAUCASIANS. Either way, get the f*ck over your “FOB” prejudice. There are 1 billion Indians in India. It just might be possible that whatever you’ve seen of them is not the whole picture. And one more thing, if you set up a website showing naked women – you will get a lot of perverts. You set up a website about genetics, you’ll get the pervert equivalents there too. This is the Internet. It works a little different than “civil society”. And thanks for letting me know about your Germanic girlfriend. Along with other 859 posts telling me, I’ll be sure to remember your girlfriend’s race and that you won’t be lonely on Valentine’s day.
Razib,
The uptight brahmins you meet must be so because of the obstacles they have to cross in India. In Tamizh Naadu an official policy of anti-brahmin discrimination has been in place since the ’60s. The much feted EV Ramaswamy Naicker social justice icon and ‘reformer’ (1880-1975) and founder of the Dravida Kazhagam or Dravidian Party in a speech in 1955 asked the brahmins to change or else face the fate of that the Jews did in Nazi Germany.
hm. i didn’t know what sardar was (saw the term referenced several times!). didn’t know if it as PC or not.
yes, i agree punjabis look more caucasion, though if you follow the genetics, you will note that probably over all the ‘informative’ loci they are still more brown than west asian. the main issue i have is with people who pester me to reverse the equation and declare they aren’t brown.
On the other hand maybe we wandered over from the Caucasus like OTHER CAUCASIANS.
1) very few caucasions are from the caucasus, that region is a people sink, not a source.
2) this paper and this paper for one view.
and yeah, i do mention my gf too much. but hey, it’s nice being able to have sex whenever you want. and i don’t want people to accuse me of being a racist hypocrite. figure i’d put my chips on the table.
AM, she was born in calcutta, so that’s why i said indian, but you are right.
anyway, i really shouldn’t have posted what i posted above. should have just left it vague and tried to assert that the center of this weblog would never express the elitism toward gulf browns that “bb” has experienced. my bad.
Phew! Thanks for the validation. I generally tone down ‘sardar’ with sardarji. Although I must say I am intrigued as to how Sikhs got this name (which as someone pointed out means ‘chief’ or ‘chieftain’ or ‘leader’).
Bazir The Agnostic(BTA) says:
Reading this reminds me of another ‘trend’ I have observed here in the US. As the commenter mentions, it is considered an offense to ask people their caste. But I recall instances when some 2G folk I barely knew would ask me or my friends what caste we belong to. It was kind of embarassing ‘cuz I don’t recall encountering such overt displays of the caste game playing out back home.
Of course as BTA says:
And again these are just my experiences not necessarily a norm.
razib_t_a
chuckles
I agree that practically no one will ever ask your caste in India. You can run into lot of problems (even legal) there, as here one would here with ethnicity issues. Not to say, caste discrimination is not very rampant in India as a strong under current. In US, I hardly move in cliques, but I will also agree with the observations, like gradinLA and Bazir had.
In villages (limited experience), also nobody talks of caste all the time except in “Bollywood” movies. If I met a villager, we would perhaps share a “lashmi brand” bidi and talk about Amrika and goris, but hell no, caste….who cares?
Sometimes, this board sounds like the Colonel in “House of Sand and Fog”.
Kush
razib_t_a says:
They do?
Al Mujahid_f_d says:
Its sorta coincidental that you mention this. My Saudi roommate (and his Saudi friends) were of the opinion that Arabs who look to India for wives do this so that their (jealous) 1st, 2nd or 3rd wife back home is unaware if he takes on a 2nd, 3rd or 4th wife in India – which according to him was one of the reasons they seek Indian brides.
Babloo says:
My roommate led me to believe that this was an Islamic law and supposedly also holds for Saudis. Maybe someone else here could comment.
Btw, Babloo thanks for the links. Most of the incidents involved old Arab men and minors which seems disturbing and bizarre.
They do?
yes. they go and get kidneys and stuff from poor people. i saw a documentary about this issue, the saudi gov. was trying to convince bedouins that the organs that the saudi gov. was providing (free of charge were just as good as organs from india. but the bedouins were skeptical, they had been getting organs from india for a few decades and were wondering of the saudi gov. was trying to screw them over (they didn’t trust the saudi administration and doctors not to mess things up).
also, let me add that i spoke too hastily when i indicted FOBs. i don’t think i know how to distinguish people well enough, there’s probably ascertainment bias going on. my point was just a rebuttal to “bb” in his perception about the zeitgeist on this weblog. none of the posters, and very few of the commenters, would express the attitudes that he was concerned about. some do (“those people are x, y, z…not our kind, who cares?”).
razib_t_a says:
I just saw ‘The Island’ – didn’t know it was about Mumbai?
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Reading my comments I realize that I am probably painting a picture that everything is great back in India as regards caste. I am sure that there are lot of people out there who have fallen on the wrong side of the caste system. And there are some really unfortunate stories that are reported from time to time. But from my experiences(and only from my experiences) I feel(probably naively) that the caste issue is on the decline back in India while I find that is not the case amongst some Indians in the US(again just relating what I have witnessed).
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Finally a big SORRY to Anna for hijacking this thread.
Oh yeah. all those sub-sub castes tht turned up on shaadi.com. maheshwaris? who?
I know this punjabi FOB here. The guy, in his own words, will only hang out with fairer looking girls, if not white.
I wanted to throw my shoe at him,complete with snow + black salt mix.
But then again, what else can you expect from a guy who says he doesn’t mind checking out any girl except hijabis.
“A number of my friends (also from Mumbai) did relate similar incidents with 1.5G/2G people telling them(and me) that they were from so-and-so sub-caste within so-and-so caste within so-and-so community from so-and-so region in India while we would look on in bewilderment.”
My guess is that such people have made an effort to understand the culture they are from beyond “we’re from India/South Asia/whatever” and at minimum came out with this caste-community-region self-identification, and they are trying to relate to Indian/South Asian/whatever-born people by giving out a self-label they think will be useful. It is perhaps a clumsy attempt to establish common ground.
Combine the “where am I from” imperative with not being raised in a context of somewhat direct experience with caste-based discrimination, and you get such statements.
Aack, a big sorry from me to Anna too for perpetuating this off-topic topic.
WRT some 2G desis being so dang concerned with their caste, I offer this as a potential reason:
Their (our) parents came over in the 60s or 70s, thus they are in many ways still in the mindset of the India of that time. The way that India is today, is light years ahead of the India these parents recreate in their homes in the US. The values, the viewpoints, etc… So perhaps 2G desis have been raised with this antiquated notion of casteism that really makes them throwbacks to the 70s…
Only speculation, feel free to flame on this notion 🙂
Deepa I agree with you. I think its the fact they are not as focused on how caste is negative bc they are not in India, so they say it more as a way of explaining where they are “from” rather than anything else. although there has to be some notion of its bad effects as well
Punjabis like to think they are a mix of people. Its gotto do with more than color-ism I think, because a Punjabi who denies he’s brown is rare
True DD, I’ve been saying that for years – the reason I feel like I don’t belong with the vast majority of British Asians is the antiquated view on most things they brought over 40 years ago. Casteism is just one aspect.
Although, I have to be honest, sometimes I find myself falling back into that mindset too. For example one snooty coconut of a girl in my uni, completely clueless about anything Indian (didn’t know the capital) and a real bitch to boot, got on her high horse one day and badmouthed Indians at length. Without even realising, I said:
“Love, no matter how much money Pops has earned, you’ll always just be a shopkeeper to me.”
It’s funny, I was talking to mummy dearest about this just today. She was saying she gets annoyed when people lump her together with other Asian women, in response to someone saying to her, when booking a hospital appointment, “Oh I notice you’re Asian, would you like an interpreter?”
Class is the new caste. Criticising someone simply due to an accident of birth is illogical; you have to take that person on their merits. However I am, and will continue to be, stuck up and obnoxious about class. I’m middle class, nothing fancy. But I simply cannot find any common ground between myself and some stereotypical innit desi rudeboy from Southall/Bradford/Oldham/Walsall. There’s nothing wrong in that. People (i.e. white people) must realise that Asians come in different classes like anyone else. We’re not only a heterogeneous group divided by religions and national identities, perhaps the most important divide is class.
At the end of the day, I think I just like being a snob. Now get out of my way you working class philistines, before I beat you with my gold sceptre!
Bongo
Dont playa hate the innits man.
Joking apart you have to admit that they are actually quite sweet if you just talk to them a little and insist they speak English properly – and the middle clarse coconut of the kind like your Uni friend – now they are in need of a good (verbal) pith taking – seriously, you have to admit, they are proper pompous style.
I knew this coconut Princess – her brother was a gangster and she was the kind that only had white people as friends (why was she talking to me you ask – well I have my charms you see – even ice queens melt at my touch) – and she spent half an hour telling me how ashamed she was of her family, who were crude and had no class – and then told me how she has not spoken to her brother in six months –
“You see, he thinks that all my friends are snobs, while I think that all of his are yobs”
Snobs and Yobs – thats the way it is going.
I don’t think the caste factor here is necessarily a big negative in the sense, I haven’t come across people who think they are superior for belonging to one caste/sub-caste-[these aren’t 2nd gen desis]. I have a Marathi Brahmin friend and they belong to a huge Marathi organisation -with membership from across North America apparently. More than being superior, it is interaction with someone from your place( since her parents grew up n studied there) in your language and celebrating certain festivals like the Marathi new yr in April.
So I see it as interaction with people who share your culture. As long as you don’t consider your culture/caste/subcaste superior or limit interaction to people like yourself, I don’t see the harm in such interactions.
coconut princess…now there’s an idea.
Whether it’s as consciously “out there” or not, Western culture does subscribe to its own caste system, as touched on in Bongsy’s post– the dollar separates “castes” of the West.
Punjabi Boy. Snobs and Yobs eh? Well I know which camp I’ll patronise. In this vein, I love the expression ‘old money’. “Oh he’s from old money, he wouldn’t mix with her sort” and so forth. Cracks me up! Makes me think of Scrooge McDuck for some reason.
Jacob – here is a picture of the coconut princess herself.
It’s not sardar it’s SardarJI (strokes flowing beard)
“because a Punjabi who denies he’s brown is rare…” I was of the impression that Punjabi’s especially Jats were convinced that they are Aryans, me I’m a darkie and proud of it !
bravo! if i had a dollar for every single time a well-meaning Punjabi back home in Northern CA said, “oh, you are dark but you are so pretty for a dark girl!”…
gosh, thanks. that makes the insult alllll better. meh.
Anna behti no need for “Fair and Lovely” its cos your dark that your gorgeous 😉 (rakish smile)
Gosh I’ve just realised that I’m a Punjabi and the fair skinned Auntieji is still flabberjusted when I ask her to stay in the sun a little longer for that extra colour ! (thud as tava wielded by Auntieji impacts on uncleji’ head)
ya man. My uncle is a doctor in Gizan, Saudi Arabia. He said white doctors get $250,000 but he is from Punjab, India and given only $125,000 for the same job. For a person who went to university for 11 years, he felt he should be paid the higher wage.