As long as we are talking about biscuits and conversion, I thought I’d point out this story by the BBC on what happens when non-biscuit based conversion is proposed:
Hardline Hindu activists in southern India have protested against the visit of American TV evangelist Benny Hinn. Some businesses in Bangalore were also shut in response to a strike call by the activists against Mr Hinn’s three-day visit to the city.
Mr Hinn is one of America’s most famous evangelists and has his own daily television show, This Is Your Day.
He is expected to hold well-attended prayer meetings on the outskirts of Bangalore on Friday.
The BBC’s Sunil Raman says there have been a few incidents of stone throwing, damage to public property and attempts to stop traffic by protestors.
Banners and posters saying “Benny Hinn Go Back” have also been put up in Bangalore, hub of India’s software industry in Karnataka state.
The BJP apparently doesn’t approve of Hinn. Who would have guessed?
Bangalore-based Hindu organisations, including a main opposition Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) leader, say that Mr Hinn would use these meetings to convert Hindus to Christianity.
Organisers deny such allegations.
Dr Sajan George, president of the Global Council of Indian Christians, said this was not the first time Mr Hinn was in India.
If biscuits are passed out, all hell is going to break loose.
“They worship stones, they throw stones. But don’t convert them!” But the BJP’s gimmicks were never funny. Incidentally, the gods in South India are different (from the North). Different names, and often an altogether different shade of blue.
I dont want to appear in any way supportive of the BJP or other hardline Hindu organisations. But I can understand the anger of some Hindus at the arrogance of some Christian Evangelists. I have read and heard what they say about Hinduism and some of it is medieval and bigoted in the extreme. They call Hinduism the devils religion and the Hindu Gods as Satan and stuff like that.
PB, some of that may stem from exposure to only one variety of Hinduism — much of the early criticism along those lines was from people in Calcutta whose only exposure had been to Kali and who were aware of thuggee. One could imagine where they might get that impression. And their thoughts have been passed down and transposed to all varieties of Hinduism, when most of the varieties would have seemed no more satanic than Graeco-Roman religious practices.
(Of course, the rest is due either to complete ignorance, actual animus, or the logic process of “Christianity is God’s religion, and God is one God, so any other religion is Not God’s religion, and any other things that are worshipped and are not the Christian God are demons.”)
Adrienne – I think its far more the latter. There isn’t a very sophisticated view of heathens. Heck, you should hear what evangelicals say about Catholics, Mormons and Jews!
Anyone remember a certain pamphlet written by the Southern Baptist Church a few years ago, with regards to non christian religions? The same pamphlet caused Jimmy Carter to break with the church. It did not confine its invective to Hindus alone.
It is quite sickening that evangelical organizations are using the tsunami disaster to force religious conversions?
PS: Mormons are not sinless either. They are very organized and very proselytizing as well. Personally, I consider aggressive proselytizing of any kind by anyone to be offensive and close to bigotry.
I remember an incident that occured on my last trip to India. One of my family friend’s daughters, who studies in the same convent school as I did, was insiting on becoming a Christian. She expressed her desire to convert to Christianity and become a Nun. Her parents, a Hindu Brahmin family, were shocked and befuddled. They asked my parents if I reflected similar behaviour anytime during my school days.
Her siblings study in the same school but they never displayed any such weird symptoms. When I heard about it from my ma, a thought came to my mind. Is there some secret preaching going on in my alma mater lately? I was never a bright student at school as opposed to this little girl. She is a ranker and willingly volunteered in all the school functions and likes. So, on a second thought, being with sister’s and having experienced their devout lifestyle is what made her change her mind ? But, then she is too small to even think about it not to mention making such an important decision in life.
I never heard back about her after that except for the fact that they left the city and relocated in Mangalore, for good !!
abhi, Shouldn’t you be saying “Hardline Christian Evangelists infringe on non-Christians’ sovereignty” instead of “Hardline Hindu’s don’t seem to like Christian Evangelists”? The action that provokes a reaction should be more prominent than the reaction.
I don’t follow any religion myself, but it pisses me off to see these evangelists abusing the freedom that the Indian constitution provides them.
how many of you have actually explored Christianity, it’s history and actual Bible-based doctrine? And talking about Catholics, Mormons and Jews, have any of you read THEIR histories, doctrines or beliefs? you’re all citing things that you’ve heard from apparently unscholarly sources. and singlestrand, no one is abusing religious freedom. it’s not like the evangelists are coming into your house, pinning you down and actually forcing[please look up this word] to convert. and since all of you are against ignorance, or so you claim, isn’t it ignorant of you to simply dismiss the evangelists without hearing what they have to say. i mean afterall, doesnt everyone have a voice in democracy?
and Adrianne, “(Of course, the rest is due either to complete ignorance, actual animus, or the logic process of ‘Christianity is God’s religion, and God is one God, so any other religion is Not God’s religion, and any other things that are worshipped and are not the Christian God are demons.'” So.. all religions are God’s religions,even the ones that are mutually exclusive to each other? wow.. talk about complete ignorance. ;P “And their thoughts have been passed down and transposed to all varieties of Hinduism, when most of the varieties would have seemed no more satanic than Graeco-Roman religious practices.” and yet, the Greco-Roman form of deism has almost died out [some wiccan cults still worship Dianna 0_o], while Hinduism is still going strong in India to this day. Now, considering Greeks and Romans were both people arguably more advanced than India at their peaks, why is it that they let go of their beliefs, while India strongly holds on to hers? just seems a bit odd to me..
Anyways, i’ve got finals to study for, so i’ll leave with this for now. btw, I was born in Bangalore, lived there for 5 years, lived in Kuwait for 3 years and i now live in California, one of the most liberal and arguably anti-Christian places on Earth. and if you havent guessed by now, I am a Christian. i take after the likes of Ravi Zecharias. =] until next time, God [the Christian One] bless you all and take care.
Adrienne
I dont think it is their exposure to just one type of Hinduism. I think it is their exposure to the evangelical ethos. Its highly bigoted and arrogant. Christian evangelists say similarly arrogant and bigoted and ignorant things about Sikhism. I have read their descriptions about Sikhism and it is mind boggling.
Singlestrand, To me there is really no difference between charlatan Christian evangelists and hardline Hindu nationalists. They are equally culpable. I think a case can be made that certain Hindu Nationalist groups have done far more to abuse India’s constitution then any evangelist. My point: Secular governments should protect against all forms of religious brainwashing, foreign or domestic.
Reading most of the mainstream media, you would think that Christians are at the receiving end of violence. But the facts are that orders of magnitude more Hindus are being killed today by Christians in explicit pursuit of ethnic cleansing and forcible conversion than vice versa.
Here are a few links from the BBC…
Link… Like many other states in India’s insurgency hit north-east, the people of Tripura have over the last five years endured thousands of abductions and hundreds of killings. … It [NLFT] says it is fighting not only for the removal of Bengali immigrants from the tribal areas, but also for the tribal areas of the state to become overtly Christian. The NLFT has warned members of the tribal community that they may be attacked if they do not accept its Christian agenda. … It is unclear where the loyalties of non-Christian tribals lie, partly because it has been alleged that they have been coerced into supporting the NLFT.
Link… Separatist group bans Hindu festivities The leading separatist group in the north-east Indian state of Tripura has ordered indigenous tribespeople to stay away from celebrations of the Hindu festival Durga Puja. The outlawed National Liberation Front of Tripura warned that any tribal members seen taking part in the festival would be killed.
i come from karur in tamilnadu and i am an average hindu without any animosity over anyone. my sister went to st theresa’s girls high school to study 6th standard. you know what. wearing hindu tilak on the forehead was prohibited by the school and all children were compelled to join christian prayer.
i am not against anyone glorifying their own beliefs and trying to bring others also to their belief. but luring children underaged, with food, gifts or anyother christmas toys is nothing but a spiritual prostitution. changing the fiath with material benefit is the most corrupted action and that is what christian evangelists are doing.
definitely i will get pissed if anyone try to influence my chilrens mind behind my back and that is exactly what is happening in india in the guise of social welfare actions
rajan
” ThatBrownGuy”
Yeah the Romans and Greeks were “superior”. Is that why their and people disappeared into an abyss 1500 years ago with different groups now claiming to be their descendents?
Plus you’re lack of knowledge of Indian history is astonishing. Google Indian history and find out how the atomic theory was predicted before the greeks, as other such things. Any civilization can claim superiority depending on how you grade them.
I was just searching some stuff and came across this, I totally agree with soundara rajan about NGOs in India “helping” india by converting their religion. it’s a differnt thing to tell someone that your religion is superior but to tell someone that they will go to hell is utterly wrong. Moreover, it’s completely wrong to give someone food and clothing in exchange of their views and beliefs that have been kept alive for ages. Isn’t that just using somebody’s bad fate to expand one’s propaganda and is that really serving the GOD?? No matter how much Hindu nationalists hate other religions, atleast they don’t go about calling other religions bogus and false.
Conversion using material benefits are definitely reprehensible; but it would be a gross misjudgement if anyone is thinking that all the hindus getting converted to Christ is because of that.No, rather they have met the Risen Lord Jesus Christ and want to follow him. Is it wrong for the evengelicals to preach that Christ is the ONLY way to salvation if they belive it with all their heart ? and that without Christ a soul could be eternally lost?If anyone does not want to belive it, he is free to do so but please dont hinder others from coming to the knowledge of the Lord. All converisons are definitely not ‘forced’;Read the biographies of sadhu sundhar singh, Pandit Ramabai, Rai Maharaj.. “Awake you who sleep and Christ will give you light”
Well. theres a big difference between converted Christians and pure christians I think beacuse these new found faith discover people i find no logic. Christianity for me itself is a confusion because Jesus never preached Christianity and he never ordered priests to run for conversion. The most important thing is this. These Baptist are not needed here we have ample of religion and stuff here to go on. By trying to fit somethings which was roman or greek won’t help them either they only weaking the country.
Well, Every religion has its fair share of $hit,Hinduism and Christianity Included. But its the Christian preacher’s hoiler than-thou attitude,that riles most people. Really for a religion that calls itself the religion of love, here are a few facts as to why Christianity is still in the middle ages in some aspects
1) http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8716780/ Note-Child marriage is LEGAL in the great moral Christian Kansas. Yeah child-marriage sometimes happens in India too,but atleast its ILLEGAL. 2)The Boston Catholic sex-abuse scandal 3)Christian priests and nuns accused of abetting Genocide in Rwanda http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1557788375/103-3035400-1130228?v=glance&n=283155 …the list could go on and on. Yeah and I know people can come-up with a similar list for Hinduism,but the point is as a Hindu I am aware of the flaws of my religion and do not go about cheating…oops liberating other people into accepting my religion.
i personally feel–they condemn hindu idols—huh–they themselves worship the cross and statues of christ in the chucrch—isent that idol worship!!!!–n i think we too believ in the theory of non-dual god or better known as advaita theory of hinduism where we too beleive god is one–but is undefined so we have given him a form so that we could focus our attention on him–the christians too worship christ n have built his statues–but can they say that each face of different idols of christ is the same n exact replica of the actual jesus christ that lived 2000 yers ago-lol–n if they think only god would respond to their prayers because they worship idols n crosses of christ and would thus go to heaven–then wot if the god thought that–“o–hmm-this idol looks more like my son jesus–ill answer to the preyers of only those people who attend this church–n not to the others, where the idol doesent look good!!!–lol—god doesen do that!!!–he doesent see the idol n say that this one is better then others n looks more like christ then others—so now wot abt the ones who worship idols that dont look christ as much as the others doo–do the christians in those chuurhes–juss blindly woship an old man hanging on the cross–because god disregarded their idol–if so then its funny.If god doesen see idol worship or non-idol worship–n juss sees at the pure emotion and devotion–then why have we been always targeetd due to our many idols of god–we don think they are different–they are just representations of one supreme undefined unkown god–allah–brhamand or the father in the heaven.–We too believe god is one!!–the christians must know this fact before they make any comments—n n one more point—wot abt the hindu saints who have recieved spiritual hieghts by just devoting their lives to mere idols n have recieved the mercy of god!! wot abt them–r they any different to the ones in christian faith hoo have recieved similar experiences—yess but they would say–we hindus recieved devils wealth—ok if that is the case–then i m happy to worship devils hoo teach me to do good deeds–help poor–be tolerant–accept all–n make me a perfect human being–if god is only in christianity –where they insult other faiths–n convert people by greed and sneaky efforts–then i m happy to be a devil worshipper–!!!!
the evngelists juss have a superficial knowledge of hindu faith–they must go n explore it in depth n then try to debate on it—n debating wid people like us wid average hindu knowledge–showss their cowardice—they must debate wid people of their level–like heads of hare krishna movement–radha soami saints–ramakrishna mission heads–they r cowards–!! they cant argue wid those people–as they know those people like his divine grace srila prabhupad n other eminent leaders of hindu faith have shaken the west long back–now in their absence n vacum–these cowards are trying to do the same thing they did long back–but they were clashed by eminet hindu leaders in their debates-specailly wid the rise of vivekanada and n other leaders.-. Actuallly its our fault as well–we modern hindus , sikhs n budhists take least interest in knowing our own knowledge n wealth of spirituality that has attracted the west. Due to this many such cowards have seized this opportunity and our disadvantage to misguide people. Their message has gone a complete flop in the west. In countires like Australia and america n others, their own people, modern generation dont pay attention to christianity, thats why they have come to try their luck here. The indian seekere is an example of average indian hindu’s lack of knowledge. Even soundra being in tamil nadu is one of them. They dont have knowledge!!!—if they are arguing or having a debate–they must take into consideration both the point of views.. The hare krishna–ramakrishna mission–radha soami movement have had many debates n challenged the mighty christian faith n changed the west!!!!! if they wanna debate debate wid men of their level. If indianseeker said that we must let them do their job–as ulitmate will lies in our hand–hey!!!— then in countries like russia n greece they must permit indian spiritual movemnets n temples to be built–if they cant do that in their countries–y shall we allow them!!!-they r juss business men-seeking the right opportunity to venture their luck that dint work in their own native lands–thus they r here with their old tricks!!–n soundra plss in tamil nadu u have many ramakrishna missions–visit them read the upanishads n vedas–ull be fine!!!!investigage before u judge or come to a conclusion.—one more interesting fact–the birth of issa or christ is mentiond in hindu bhavishya puraan–even mohamaeds case is mentioned—n many saints had rised people from dead in india even before christ n after him–n during christ’s absence for 16 years archeologists n historians have some valid proofs that state that he visited india!!–these old facts had been sensationalized during 1980’s n 1970’s With the gap n vacum of any other indian spiritual revolutionary like prabhupad or vivekanana–these cowards are takin the opportunity by atacking local —people wid lack of knowledge thru every possible means–like this internet website as well!!!!!
i agree wid aky—we must let the evangelists have debates with the leaders of contemporary hindu faith–such as brahma kumari–radha soami–chinmaya mission n others. By tolkin to us n other local people they r being very cunning–as a matter of fact –like in ancient india–kings used to have debates n their courts on religion n which ever they thot was right they accpeted it-they too shalll have debates with our western hindu leaders who have shaken the world n converted many–they must fight wid them–n the decsion rests upon us to decide as to which one is right!! otherwise even by the usage of this website n other such kind of activities n targeting local averge-knowledged people like us they r juss showin their lack of guds !!
just wondering…
if it’s hindu’s not hindus wouldn’t it then be christian’s not christians.
yes i really am that pedantic/sad. someone’s gotta stick up for grammar and punctuation, let alone freedom of religious belief okay peoples! sheesh.
but then i might be wrong. evangelical christians love-bomb everyone though, even non-practicisng and less scary christians.
I heard the term idol worship was brought up. I am a Hindu by birth, but I have taken consider nature, in her many forms, as the one truly omnipresent force. In any case I was having a discussion with a Christian friend, who stated that he believed that idol worship did not refer to other gods being idol gods, he believed as I did, that what ever you call him/her/it you are worshipping the one god. Hindus also believe this, thier are many roads to god. Idol worship he believed, and I concur it the worship of false gods, gods like Britney Spears, the television, Gucci, Enron, your ipod, playstationÂ…. these are the false gods, think back and IÂ’m sure that most people even the religious of you have at some point worshiped of at least idolized one of these false gods, oh and as for evangelists like the Hinn fellow, well theyÂ’re the biggest idol’s of all. The sooner people realized that the basic do good not bad principles stated in all religions are fundamentally the same. It is our interpretations that make the rules and write the scriptutes, our environments that shape these discussions, has anyone noticed the Muslim women and some men wear veils, thatÂ’s because the come from the desert, and if some how through the path of time, the ultimate reasons for wearing it have changed, so be it, god/nature will still be happy that their faith is real. Nature I believe to be god, because it seems to me that many gods have come and gone, and i have come to realize that when people stop worshiping god’s seem to disappear, but nature couldn’t care less if you worship her or not she’s still the one pulling the strings and she will be around whether you believe in her or not. You may disagree, you may say “NO Jehovah/Jesus/Allah/Zues/Krisna/Shiva/Ram/Masda/Your God here….. is the one true Lord Almighty” or “No there is no god” Well thatÂ’s ok because it is in your nature to believe that, it is in your nature to disagree with me, it is in your nature to worship who you worship and it is in my nature to quote what was said once by Voltaire, I may not like what you say, but I will die for you right to say it!
May you all find the light you are looking for.
Some of us do have knowledge of ourselves so don’t worry about that Aky. I have made my mind up though, that the answers arenÂ’t in any of the scriptures. I sometimes feel you get to know more about the divine, when discussing theology with your pet cat. The true answers are everywhere but the scriptures you employ that we read, sit down and listen to the way the wind rustles through the trees. That is where you here the word of god. Stay their till you understand her verses, and then you will know where to find answers, as I did. Listen to you soul, it is older and wiser then you give it credit for. That is what she told me, purhaps she’ll tell you something different!
Just a little bit of input on the idol worship thing in Christianity. I’m not saying this is right — I’ve seen some interesting views here — but I’m just expanding your ideas a little. Though I am currently agnostic, I was born into a non-religious family and educated through a completely Christian system. Anyway, on the subject of idol worship in Christianity. An idea that I have heard is that the images that are used in Christian worship, such as the cross, are just reminders. Christians do not worship the actual idols. They are reminders of the sacrifices that God has made, or symbols of other things. For example, candles are often symbols of the light that God and Jesus shine on the path to all things good. The cross is especially important in that it represents how Jesus died to take away the sins of the world. So, just another idea.
If I come across a bit biased or uninformed, well, I have been at a Christian school for the majority of my life.
Good luck with whatever your religion and ideas are.
hi Aky , Sindhi and all, There seems to be a conclusion among many that everyone who supports converison lacks ‘knowlwdge’ and everyone who opposes it is ‘knowledgeable’. First of all I can understand the anger of these dear people; they are imagining that the poor local people are fooled by the evangelists.I would like to state certain facts: 1. All the evangelists are not foreigners; a majority of them are true Indian and many actually are converts from hinduism and other religions. 2.Christianity is not a European religion.It originated in Israel(Asia) and did not start in Rome or Greece 3.True Christains(they are very very few in number) are those who follow the Word of God(Bible).Please dont consider that all priests or nuns or ministers are christians.They are not. 4.Idol worhsip in all forms(cross, statue of Jesus or anything) is prohibited in the Bible.Just because the catholics or some groups does it, it does not mean that it is accepted. 5.I am a person living in Chicago; the statement that hindu leaders have shaken the world is not true.There are some of the ‘hippy’ culture who have taken to hinduism.Most people does not care about God Himself ; much less hinduism. 6.Indian constitution gives everyone the right to propagate and practise any religion; why do you peope try to stop it.If christians are doing it through monetary means(which is definetely not true), what stops the vast majority of hindus from doing the same and winning back the converts. 7.I am a Christian; my pastor(leader) at chennai was a Hindu convert; he got converted not because he got some money; but he received the light of God and turned to Christ for forgiveness and salvation.About 50% of the persons who attended the church were hindu converted and they are still very poor but rejoicing in the Lord Jesus.
Finally, there is no one apart from Jesus Christ who came to save SINNERS; every other person considered as god comes to give blessings for good persons and to punish bad people. Christ came to seek and save the bad people so that no one is lost.Yes, I am one among the lost and a really bad perosn (thoughts of hearts were evil) but by my faith in Christ, I am forgiven and have everlasting Life and my life has been changed.
God chose very poor, illeterate fishermen as apostles and empowered them and filled them with the power and wisdom of God to preach the gospel.All the wise men of Greece or Rome could stand against the wisdom of these illiterate fishermen.”God has chosen the foolish of this world to shame the wise and the weak things of the world to shame the mighty’.
Yes, these were the people who really shook the world and the Roman empire itself could not stand against the spirit of Love this group brought.
I agree most of the christian groups are not living like this; but the preaching of the gospel is a privelege given to every christian and A true Christian will gladly give up His life for the sake of the gospel.
” I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners unto repentance” – Jesus Christ ” Truly, Truly, I say to you, anyone who belives in Me has everlasting Life” _ Jesus Christ.
And Aky, your ‘historical’ statement of Jesus coming to India is just a myth; these fables have been going around for a long time but history has never proved it.And for your information ‘History’ has become ‘His Story’ – yes,friend history is divided into BC and AD ( Before Christ and Anno Domini(meaning In the year of the Lord)).Jesus has definetely changed the course of history and I pray that your eyes will be opened.
I am a hindu. I see god everywhere and in everything. I respect godmen and saints from across the world but I hate crooks who pose as saints, be it in hinduism or christianity.
suraj suraj suraj–u r absolutely rite–i agree with you–but the same thing you are sayin is already mentioned in the vedas–it is clearly mentioned–“tat twam asi”–which means god and his knowledge liea within yourself–so why should one change ones brand from hindu to christian–that creates violence–whether the evangelism is started by christians or any other religion–we don need to change our brand—–u r hundered percent correct
Indian constitution has permitted religious freedom , no doubt, but its so that all the religions can live in peace. The evangelists must not take advantage of this. They are not permitted in islamic nations, so where they have got the opportunity, due to our accpeting and respect giving nature to all religions, these evangelists must not use it for their own ulterior purpose. I think if they continue such things, then jihad from hindus is the only solution, thats how our neighbours of arab world have handled them, now we shall too. But we are hindus we cannot do like that, we believe in peace, so we will peacefully resist, but powerfully oppose! do not misuse our tolerant nature, donot take for granted our kind nature!
If the constitution gives the right to propagate any religion, why does people like chid aboveoppose it? Islamic nations are theocratic and hence can stop other religions being preached;India is secular and hence that gives the right to every person to preach and PROPAGATE any religion. Or does these people who oppose convertion consider themselves above the law of the Land and above he constitution.For discussion sake, let us assume that even the constitution does not give this permission; even then I believe the conscience is above the constitution and any man has the freedom to preach about his religion( although he may have to suffer the consequence of the law)
I am unable to understand the fear of the Hindu friends among this group; why dont the hindus join together and try to convert some Christians; who is stopping you for that ?.Or is that there is nothing specific that you have to offer the needy in spirit.
I know persecution for Christians is near in India and soon it may start; but the good news is that where persecution increases, the true christains will strenghthen themselves in the Lord and become much stronger.But the hypocrites will fall back and deny their faith. Remember, true christians never fights back; but will bless those who persecute them and will pray for those who hate them. I acknowlwdge that there has been violence in the name of Christianity; but those who did it were not true christains; there were just serving themselves and not the Lord Jesus.
God bless.
secular outlook permits diferent religions to co-exist not to use it as a tool to serve their own ulterior purposes. If the hindus wanted they could have hinduized the entire nation and we could have done this long back.The point made my indian seeker that hinduism has nothing to ofer is blatantly incorrect. Many contemporary hindu movements have spread across indian oceans to different corners of earth marking the inception of non-indian hindus in the hindu religion. We do not say that christians or any other religion should not convert, they can excercise their full freedom to do so, but it should not be done on the grounds of biscuit distribution in the beggars or going in villages and funding them and then converting un-knowledged poor indian hindus. If they want to give help, yess they should, but they should do so on non-relgios basis otherwise they are not providing help, they are just giving another trouble by sowing the seeds of mistrust and uneasiness among the peacefully co-existing communities of india, and clearly no foreign body has the right to do so. We are not stopping them to convert, but if they want to do so then first they must have a debate with out hindu spiritual elites and leaders and let the entire world and india watch the debate, and whichever one wins has the green signal. If the christians think that they are so confident and believe in the only way to god then they must not get angry and scared as the indian seeker, they must fight back, but with the people of their own level–not half knowledged indian hindus or poor devastated people with age old biscuit distribution techniques. Some christian also believe that god is one, so if he is one why do you want to convert. We indians are living peacefully in our land, and let us do so. Any funds or aid for any sufering sould in the country should be done so secularly and not by converting and creating problem. If al-quaeda is creating problems for indians directly then these guyz would create trouble indirectly!
Dear ‘Indian’-Seeker, your generalisations about Christianity and Christians are amusing besides being untrue. The violent nature of Christians has a parallel only in Islam.
What do you make of this ‘Nagaland for Christ’ separatist moment ? Your church is a big sponsor of this…
In many areas of the North-East , not accepting Jesus as one’s Saviour is a reason good enough to be killed.
It’s completely ridiculous to claim that converting someone is not a denouncement of their religion or way of life. When you convert someone, you are telling him in effect that unless he accepts Allah, Jesus, Buddha or whatever, he is basically screwed, damned, cursed, or whatever you might call it. And by implication, every other person following his faith is faced with the same fate. Hinduism is not just some faith in a book that comes “from god” it is an extremely voluminous and complex ancient philosophy that is comprehended by very few “hindus”. Instead of reading the Vedanta, Gita and other important scriptures, we allow ourselves to focus in on uinimportant ritualized practices, which rob our religion of its most critical element, its deep philosophical and yogic tradition. Because so many Hindus don’t understand our own religion, we allow the foreign media and anti-Hindu activists to focus in on the negative aspects, many of which are simply societal constructs (such as caste and limitations of women) that have become practice simply through perpetuation by the patriarchal order. As for the question of why we don’t convert, well it’s just not in our ethic. If you’re like me, and you think religion is mostly a vehicle to control people, you realize that Hinduism doesn’t even fit the definition of a religion; there is no formal church or organization, there is no head of the religion, there are no prophets, and there is no promise of judgement. Because of this, because of our openness and tolerance, Hindus are ripe targets for the competitive and dominant nature of prosyletizing faiths. This doesn’t mean it’s justified. I think we have the right to be left in peace. I don’t knock on your door and tell you you’re going to be reincarnated as a cockroach for eating beef, so why is it OK for you to get up in my face and tell me I’m going to hell? That’s just ridiculous. Have your church, and if people are interested, they will show up. There’s a saying in marketing; good products sell themselves. Bad products need marketing. That basically sums it up to me. Hindus don’t need to market (so instead our scriptures are hijacked for profit by the Deepak Chopras and western religious scholars of the world) because left to their own devices, anyone ready for the knowledge of the Vedas will reach for it himself. It’s telling that Christianity is fast losing hold in the developed countries of the world, which is why the Catholic Church, baptists, pentecostals and others have moved on to Africa, Latin America and Asia for their new converts. It’s not to “save” us, or else they would be busy trying to reclaim all the lost souls in Europe. It’s really about staying in power and influential, and they realize uneducated people and the poor are the easiest targets for conversion to a religion of blind “faith”. Why is it that so many educated people in Western societies, raised in Abrahamic traditions, are turning to Eastern philosophy and spirituality to cope? Why is it that Christianity is constantly at odds with science, when the Vedic understanding coincides beautifully with both quantum physics and evolution? It’s because our religion is based much more in reality than any of the Abrahamics. Maybe we might lose a few, but in the end, truth will always win out.
Religion – the cause of (most) all evil – hindu, muslim, x-tian, whatev… (zen buddhists, true spiritualists, ancient vedics, and wiccans are excepted – sorry) – it’s all BS and a way to farm the sheep for control (political, financial or otherwise), always has been
Science kids, science. I love the concept of Krishna and Jesus and what they (assuming they existed) had to say, too bad their “spokespeople” go so astray and do not listen…
Let’s all just get along and stop with the divisive mythologies. Only those with the power and money to take advantage of this really benefit in the end.
Secular humanism please…
Dear Sindhi, I agree with you that converiosn through ‘biscuit distribution’ is wrong and is to be condemned.But many of the conversions are genuine and happened due to a change of heart and not because of biscuits.As I have mentioned earlier on this site, my church leader and more than 30% of my church members were convert from hinduism…and they were not seeking after biscuits.There are earnest people who get converted because of the Love of Christ and knowing that He gave up His life for the sins of the world.The debate thing is not practical, as you yourself would surely agree(it is not practical). I am really sorry if I seemed to be angry with my writings above;it was not intended and definitely I was not scared.I was just putting forth my arguments. But I fully agree with you that converiosn using monetary benefits(I am not sure whether this is happening)is not proper; but I am convinced that even if this happens, this is a small percentage and not the actual reason for the converison.
Raj, you seemed to have completely misunderstood me; I was NOT generalising christianity(please read my above article carefully); On the contrary, I was differentiating the different ‘faces’ of christainity.I was actually making a point that most of the so called nominal christians (like the groups you mentioned)are not true christains at all ; they have ulterior motives and have not known the way of Christ.True Christians never goes to war or fights back; instead they repay ‘good for evil; and a blessing for a curse..’
And Dark knight…do you really believe that people who eat beef would come back in the next life as cockroaches;if you sincerely belive that , I would say that you are doing evil by not warning the beef eaters about that.Seriously think about it; if you truly care about others, you cannot keep quiet; you wull definitely tell others..’please dont eat beef..or in the next life you will come back as cockroaches..’.The fact that you are not telling others proves either you dont belive it or you dont have love in your hearts. But as for the missionaries , they love you and do not want you to go to hell and be eternally lost.So, they take the pain of warning you.Is this a crime..? If a house was on fire, wouldnt you shout aloud so that the people on the top floors might somehow escape..? I see the work of the missionary as this …they see a coming judgement on this world..and they warn the people to turn away from their sin and turn to the Living God who created the heavens and the earth.
And again I want to reiterate; the majority of the missionaries are NOT foreigners; they are Indians; and they work among Indians; and they have a burden for the Indians( I pray for my land India regularily that my people would open their eyes and see the glory that lies ahead at the revelation of Jesus Christ).He is the Only One who came to bear the sins of the world.
God bless;
conversion al done by going amongst lf-knowledged hindus is incorrect These hindus are engrossed in their bussy life and dont ve the knowledge of the actual vedic literature Human nature is greedy and keeps to itsself only wot is needed –like lakshmi worship–ganesh worship and rituals As a result of which the true essesnce of vedas ve di lved in the history As a result of this these
dark knight said:
and indian seeker responded:
@indian seeker: i would think you are getting dark knight wrong. dk probably meant that both sentiments “beef->cockroach” and “non-xtian->hell” are equally ridiculous.
you do realize there is a juicy question here-what if jc wants to put you in heaven while karma makes you a cockroach. will the cockroach go to heaven? if the cockroach goes to heaven, what abt those who fear cockroaches? clearly god being infallible is an axiom, else indian seeker will protest. that leaves us only one conclusion: if you dislike cockroaches, you will go to hell. i should be starting a religion of my own now… maybe with festivus as the main celebration!
O Indian Seeker, please do keep praying for us* lost, un-enlightened Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Parsis, Jains, Buddhists, and Jews. Hold our hands and lead us out of the dark wilderness towards the tunnel of Light, where Jesus Christ is warmily awaiting to collect us in his generous and forgiving Bosom. *Personal request: in your prayers, can you specifically name me, Cheap Ass Desi? Ask Hay-Soos to personally gift the Revelation to Cheap Ass Desi in order to save her from being plummeted into Hell for being an infidel Hindoo. Thanks!
umm goin amongst those hindus hoo don have knowledge n preachin them is also wrong. If any one wants to do so, they must first fight with out hindu religion leaders that have spread the faith to western lands
Sarcasm and subtlety are rarely effective when one is dealing with evangelicals. Suffice to say, I don’t think that non-hindus become cockroaches. I don’t think any religion is “the one path” or else at least 75% of all people would be screwed, no matter which religion is right. According to me, no God I would worship would want three quarters of his creations to be damned.
Sindhi…I dont think there needs to be first a debate with the hindu leaders before the gospel is preached.Did those ‘hindu religion leaders that have spread the faith to western lands..’ first debated with all the great christian leader before starting their mission overseas.They received the freedom to propagate hinduism in western countries without undergoing any debate or getting special permission for converisons; so why are you thinking of double standards here..? To get an understanding of the Lord does not require a Phd in religious studies..but a sincere and a humble heart.If any person (knowledgeable or naive) have a humble heart, God will reveal Himself to him.
Dark knight and bytewords are surely entitled to their opinion that those does not accept the forgiveness found in christ are not damned, and that there could be many paths to God.But isn’t it only fair that the evangelicals and people like myself are also entitled to an opinion and a belief..? And our belief is that anyone who has rejected the gospel of Christ stands in danger of hell,since that person has rejected the truth about their own lost condition and hence does not feel the need for a saviour. Since we belive this with ALL our heart, we go out and preach about the salvation in Christ; now why should that be considered as a fault? If we believe something, dont we have the freedom to speak about it..?The notion that it is only the poor and naive who are coming to Jesus Christ for salvation is not true; I know personnaly hindus very well versed in the Vedas and who are doctors or scientists who has turned to Christ for salvation.One of the greatest Christains who ever lived was Sadhu Sundar Sigh…who was a actually a Sikh. Pandit Rama Bai was another great women christians who came from India( she started the Arya Mahila Samaj).
Let us give freedom for any religion to be preached..and give every man the freedom to choose his own God.
Tell me ‘Indian’-Seeker, were you a product of immaculate conception?
Indian-Seeker :
So as per your assertion, dear Rev.Indian-Seeker, anybody who does not accept Jesus as his or her saviour is going to hell , regardless of what that person does in his or her life. All the stuff I was told as a kid by my hindu parenst (‘lost souls’) was all lies. They said, tell the truth always, respect elders, be kind to the poor, be humble, always follow the laws of the land etc. and you will go to heaven. Tell lies, steal, cheat and do other dastardly stuff and you go to hell. Guess my parents was bullshitting me. Regardless of how I lead my life, I am going to hell anyway since I have no interest in accepting a possibly gay guy whose mother told her husband that that he was a product of immaculate conception (haha), as my saviour. So why bother.
So tell me Rev. Indian-Seeker, why do you expect good behaviour from us lost souls , why should we respect your right to practise your faith in our country, why should we not ravage your good christian women and destroy your churches ? Because regardless of what we do, good stuff or bad stuff, we hindu lost souls are going to hell all the same….
Infact I would encourage you to tell every hindu you meet that he is going to hell if he does not accept jesus as his saviour. So that hindu can slap you, beat the crap out of you, safe in the knowledge that no matter what he does to you, whether he treats to to a nice hot coffee or pours boiling water on you, he will go to hell all the same……just for staying true to his religion.
Why should we hindu heathen souls restrict ourselves to the norms of human behaviour and basic decencies ? We are going to hell all the same….
Life can be so much fun if we know where we are headed….
Raj…You are entitled to your belief and you have the freedom to do what you want. Let me just tell you that you have effectively committed blasphemy; Insulting me by calling me ‘ a product of immaculate conception..’ is not serious and I have already forgiven you but calling the Lord Jesus what you called above will require an answer from your side( maybe not now in this world , but definitely in the future..) I hope you set things right with the Lord before that.
Let me just conclude by quoting scripture.. ” at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue would confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father..”
“I am the resurrection and the life.He who believes in Me , though he may die, he shall live…” -Jesus Christ
“For the Son of Man has come into this world to seek and to save those that are lost..”
“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not belived in the name of the only begotten Son of God.And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.”
“For the wages of Sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord..” ” He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Yeh, Seeker,
To your comment…
I think Raj has said the right thing. All these centuries your clan has been doing this blashpemy to us. Your christian and moslem clan have desecrated our places of worship, insulted our religeous belief.
Please do not beat trumpet about your ONLY god to us. We have enough of them. In the sameway like how you feel that Raj has committed blashpemy, you and your clan are not doing anything less than that, by doing similar insults to our gods. Do not throw stones at other’s religions, if you feel you cannot take the same.
non christian religions and philosophies teach that we can come to God by our own works or our own good efforts, but the bible teaches that salvation is a free gift, given only by Jesus christ. God loves us so much, that he gives it to all that repent and turn their attention to him. I was born into a sikh/radha soami family, but have accepted Jesus Christ as my personal saviour, after much study and prayer.
Dear Discover,
You are free to choose whatever path is comfortable to you. It is absolutely fine. But technically speaking, unless one purifies himself/herself of all dark virtues surrounding him/her, by way of good deeds and pious thinking, god (of whatever religion, or name, or shape you assign) would not be interested in unduly saving him/her. This is a very logical and scientific reasoning. What you sow is what you reap, i.e. you must pay back to nature/destiny of whatever you have taken from it. Eventually the karmic balance should be restored.
I do not think, a person who had been a rogue, thief, cruel, who had committed gravest of sins would simply wash off his/her sins, just by clinging to the ONLY saviour. This in essence cruel way of escape, very similar to a politician escaping from the clutches of law of justice, just because he/she got close proximity with some higher up in power hierarchy. If any god does such an action, it can only be a fallen god !
Dear Discover, I am delighted to hear your testimony…and I belive with all my heart that you have eternal life by trusting in ‘righteousness of God’ revealed in Jesus Christ and not by ‘our own works’. Saraswathi, it would be good to know that what we call the gravest sin may not be much different in the eyes of God from the ‘small sins..’ Just think about this words of Jesus ..” whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart..” or ‘whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of judgement..’ I am sure that you would agree that adultery is a ‘grave sin’ but according to the above verse, can you tell me of any normal man who has not committed adultery..? Sin arises from the heart and your external acts of good deeds cannot wash away the impurity of the heart.Can a fig tree produce olives or a do men gather grapes from thornbushes ? Our deeds cannot make us righteuos in the sight of God; because God is Holy and cannot look on impurity.Any person, if he is sincere, will admit that the thoughts of their hearts are very much evil,immoral, impure and we all have envy , selfishness and pride in our hearts. Because of our fallen nature, it took a ‘most loving God’ (and not a fallen God) the sacrifice of His Only Son ( who was sinless) to redeem mankind.There is no other God who came down to earth to save sinners( both big and small), wicked people, and people who have ‘committed grave sins’ and to give them eternal life.Eternal Life is a free gift offered to all man; but few would only accept it (since most are too proud to recognise their sin and would trust in their own works..) The philosophy of karma is a vicious cycle from which there is no escape; the salvation in Christ is complete and guaranteed; since all mankind has been redeemed by the death of Christ; but it would be only those who accept this truth, who would enjoy the benefit. The story of the robber crucified with Christ sums it all; Christ said to him ” Truly Truly I say to you; Today you shall be with Me in paradise.” Just imagine..the worst criminal given free salvation at the last minute of his life by the Savior Christ ( since Christ blood was shed for everyone’s sin, including that robber who confessed his faith in Jesus Christ) Just look at another words of Christ to the chief priest and the Pharisees( who were supposed to be very Holy men at that time).. ” Truly truly I say to you, the harlots will enter the kingdom of God before you….because they repented …” Unless we repent truly of our sins , the people who seems to be the ‘ worst sinners’ will enter the kingdom of God because they repented of their sins and trusted in the ultimate sacrifice of Jesus Christ , who was crucified for the sins of the world.
Dear Discover..if you have truly repented and trusted in Christ, I wish to tell you in love..” We have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end..” and ” Greater is He that is IN you that he that is in the world..”.