So…despite what some might allege, I do NOT keep dosa pr0n up on the main page for an extra long, torturous time, not on purpose, at least. To prove this, I wanted to publish something newer for you mutineers. Off to the News Tab I went…and then I saw this:
Karunanidhi calls Lord Ram a ‘drunkard’, Advani fumes
WOW. Look, I don’t pretend to know about either the Ram Setu controversy OR politics in India, but like any idiot with half-a-functioning brain, I do know (Mandink-aaaa) that it would be disrespectful and hurtful to call a revered religious figure a “drunkard”, especially in uber-devout India. Some of you may be asking, what is going ON over there? Well, for those of you at home who haven’t been following this controversy (coughguiltycough), here’s a brief explanation:
The Sethusamudram Shipping Canal Project proposes linking the Palk Bay and the Gulf of Mannar between India and Sri Lanka by creating a shipping canal through the shallow sea sometimes called Setu Samudram, and through the island chain of Rama’s Bridge, also known as Adam’s Bridge. This would provide a continuous navigable sea route around the Indian Peninsula. The project involves digging a 44.9 nautical mile (83 km) long deepwater channel linking the shallow water of the Palk Strait with the Gulf of Mannar. Conceived as early as 1860 by Alfred Dundas Taylor, it recently received approval of the Indian government. [wiki]
According to the Hindu scripture Ramayana and beliefs, Sri Rama and His Vaanar Sena built a bridge from Rameshwaram to Sri Lanka thousands of years ago. Some Hindu organizations and religious figures, including the Shankaracharya of Puri, have opposed the project, pointing out that it would destroy the “Ram Setu”.
Others have opposed the project on environmental grounds, and fears of the effect it will have on the livelihood of some 20 million fisherfolk in the coastal districts.
The Union government admitted in late 2007 that there was no historical evidence to establish the existence of Ram or the other idols in Ramayana. In an affidavit filed before the apex court, the Archaeological Survey of India too rejected the claim of the existence of the Ram Sethu bridge in the area where the project was under construction. A day later, the affidavit was withdrawn under pressure from Hindu fundamentalist parties. However, the State government of Tamil Nadu continue to maintain its official stance and refused to review the project. [wiki]
Got all that? Good.
The Chief Minister of Lemuria, Karunanidhi, is an atheist. That is why he is extra vexed about any religious-based objections to this shipping canal. A Senior Leader of the BJP, Lal Krishna Advani, thinks Karunanidhi has got some nerve on him.
The war of words over the Ram Setu degenerated into a bitter slander match on Thursday with Tamil Nadu Chief Minister M Karunanidhi calling Lord Ram a ‘drunkard’ and a ‘big lie’.
Karunanidhi reacted with these bitter words after senior BJP leader Lal Krishna Advani on Thursday asked him to withdraw his statement about Ram, saying “people at the helm of affairs do not force contempt on others as far as religious affairs are concerned.â€
“I want the Tamil Nadu CM to withdraw his statement about Ram. I respect Karunanidhi for being an atheist. But people at the helm of affairs do not force contempt on others as far as religious affairs are concerned,†Advani, the Leader of the Opposition in Lok Sabha, said…[IBN]
…to which, the Chief Minister replied…
Karunanidhi shot back in no time, saying he remains firm on his stand. “I will not withdraw my statement.“
“Ram is as big a lie as big as the truth of the existence of the Ganges and the Himalayas,” he said. The TN Chief Minister even went on to call Lord Ram a ‘drunkard’.
“Even Valmiki has said that Ram was a drunkard. I urge Advani to get into a debate with me after reading Valmiki’s Ramayana,” Karunanidhi said.[IBN]
Oh, my.
Lately, Ram Setu has popped up on at least one SM thread, specifically the uproar over calling Ram fictional or mythical:
In the wake of the Ram Setu controversy, Karunanidhi had described Lord Ram as a ‘mythical hero’ and vowed to not go back on the Sethusamudram project.
“Is there any proof of Ram having built the bridge, or that he had the engineering expertise… There was no person in the name of Ram. The story of Ram is authored by Valmiki in Ramayana. There are so many things that Valmiki has said about Ram,” Karunanidhi said.[IBN]
I do believe that at one inappropriately hilarious moment during this fustercluck, Karunanidhi tried to make a point by asking where Ram went to engineering school? What the…? I mean, obviously he went to IIT. Just like Jesus went to Harvard.
No, seriously, what kind of pointless, snickering question is THAT? And doesn’t this man value his LIFE? Or, I don’t know, his family’s?
On Tuesday evening, Karunanidhi daughter Selvi’s house in Bangalore was attacked by unidentified miscreants in a development that was seen as a fallout of his comments. Karunanidhi slammed the attackers, saying “they showed the culture of Ram Bhaktas (worshippers). I treat these things like a speck of dust. I welcome such opposition.â€
He likes to talk some smack, doesn’t he? Yowza.
”The Ram Sevaks have proved their culture. I reiterate what I had said. There is no historical proof that Rama existed or of the bridge been built,” he said.[IBN]
I know that some of you are outraged over this (and I sympathize completely…I may not be of the same faith, but I’m a person OF faith), so I hope we can all take a collective deep breath before discussing this. I know I’m not the only one who is interested in reading what some of you have to say.
Karunanadhi is just an LTTE-loving, racist bigoted piece of ****. He knows it, and everyone else knows it. He uses Tamil racism as a platform to keep the votes flowing in. And his hatred for Brahmins goes to show how he uses caste too as an issue to sit in power.
Dude, that sounds like a clever argument, but there is a very fundamental difference b/w this faith in scientists and the other kind of faith, in case you didn’t notice. What you questioned above are stuff that you can verify as many times as you want personally if you really care/bother to… unless of course, the whole universe is a conspiracy and an illusion of some sort.
random, I wasn’t trying to be clever, I’m not arguing anything, and I didn’t mention religious faith in my questions. I read Arjun’s post and those two questions popped up in my head.
No he doesn’t, Muruga is an ancient Tamil deity. You are correct in the sense that the modern manifestation of Muruga does incorporate Indo-Aryan Skanda/Kumara. Hinduism is a syncretic religion…
Dio, I have a lot of reservations about DMK (and am not a “Southie” myself), but–they don’t need to establish “purity” to support their overall claims– maybe some make dumb claims to it, but the thrust of their arguement doesn’t fail because Dravidian culture is “hybrid.”
Prashant:
I don’t think it is fair to single out Tambrahms. In my experience I’ve seen fanaticism across Brahmins and other upper castes from all over India. Unlike other brahmins, the Tambrahms came under humongous attack from the DKist movement in TN. There were some reform movements like Arya Samaj, Brahmo Samaj, Ambedkhar movement outside of TN but only in TN the new movement achieved greater success. The other Brahmins have not been seriously tested compared to that of Tambrahms in TN. So in some ways, they have to form more defensive posture compared to the rest of the Brahmins. A perfectly valid reaction given the heavy attack they were against.
“but the thrust of their arguement doesn’t fail because Dravidian culture is “hybrid.””
can u expand on this, cause I’m not sure if I understand what is you’re trying to say.
“yeah, that’s what my father thinks too. non-brahmins outnumber brahmins by a lot, and generally only brahmins pray to rama in tamil nadu apparently.”
that’s not entirely true…Rameshwaram and Srirangam and other Vaishnavite temples still see a majority of non-brahmins that visit the temples.
But I do wonder what exactly happened that Rama is such an important deity in AP but not in TN…cause southern Andhra Pradesh was under much of the same kingdoms as much of TN…culturally they’re pretty similar in a lot of ways.
not really. brahmins are not a relevant force in tn politics, and inspiring hatred against them (except in reservation related situations) is not a predominant election issue any longer. but caste is a huge factor in the social and political dynamics of tn. conflicts between thevars vs. vanniars vs. nadars vs. whatever affect local elections much more, and erupt into clashes every so often.
Don’t mess with roti (phulka)….India’s best invention to date.
I just mean that even though there isn’t much in the way of “pure” cultures, ethnicities, etc. in the world, that hardly means that no “impure” group can’t have a legitimate grievance. Personally, I like to think in terms of individuals, but I’m just saying that DMK is hardly going to fold like a group of cards if it’s pointed out Dravidian culture isn’t “pure”–what culture is? They still mean something.
Yeah, great-great-grandson of Brahma too, I think. And I remember reading that his people were supposed to be migrants to Lanka from northern India (supported I suppose textually by his uncle Marichi living near Rama in the forest up north).
Unfortunately I don’t have sources for you. Maybe someone else here does.
BTW, controversies, trolls and all, this has still been a very interesting and informative thread.
Amit….by using the term ‘faith in scientists’ you are in fact emphasizing my point. I do not have faith in scientists…i have faith in the scientific process, which is exploited by those scientists in work that is independently verified/cross checked/reviewed by other scientists using that same method.
Razib..maybe your right. This is my personal form of atheism…i dont know too much about the philosophy in general..only what i believe.
Noname @ #335
Right on. I think we need to tell eachother this often. People forget that in the past there have been movements within hinduism to give us the right to worship as we please. Only then was this religion able to survive.
I actually think, these kind of debates makes a society move forward. It is healthy as all long as people don’t kill each other. Also it is unique to Hinduism that it allows all system of thoughts and open to criticism and debate…It is oxymoronic to be a Hindu and not question God and reality of the world etc… In fact, by Nastika school of Hindu thought allows atheism and Samkhya and Mimamsa school are example of that. And two other religions to come out of India, Buddhism and Jainism are borderline atheistic and openly agnostic!
Nastiks are technically those who dont accept the Vedas, the Carvakas are atheists in the modern sense of rejecting all supernaturalism, and yes, this is the very best thing about Hinduism, though there are some people who really wish the could implement heresy and fatwas into the framework.
The true constraints classically are social – those of jati (caste), which still constrain and oppress people in India. In the West, it doesn’t really apply, so welcome to postmodern religion. Pick and choose from “tradition” what you want, and dare anyone to tell you you’re not a Hindu for not picking or choosing something else.
looks like vhp/bjp finally have sympathy for practices in islam.
And you still didn’t answer my questions, and I actually have no objections to emphasizing your point – if that’s where it goes. 🙂 And who
createdcame up with the scientific process (the holy grail)? Scientists.OMG!! Are they trying to co-opt Islam? 🙂 🙂 Looks like the circus is in town!
the scientific method itself has a history which you can wiki. I was referring more to the concept that whatever you believe in must be observable. Religious people tend to think that whatever is not-obervable they can make up whatever they want about it. For example the past(before carbon dating) was hardly observable…so religious people of all extractions came up with fanciful theories of how the earth was created….or how humans came to be.
Richard Dawkins says “being an atheist doesn’t mean I can’t proove god can’t exist, just that I put God into the same category as fairies, the cookie monster, and other things I can’t prove don’t exit”
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Behead_Karuna_say_seers/articleshow/2393800.cms Behead Karuna, say seers
” The punishment to Karunanidhi, he said, was ‘shastra sammat’ (prescribed by scriptures). “Shrimadbhagvat and Ram Charitmanas have categorically laid down that the devout must slice the tongue and heads of those who dare to defame Bhagwan Ram.” …the north-south divide is coming to the fore…Nationalistic fanatics vs the rationalists
Karunanidhi a rationalist? Don’t make me laugh.
would it be ok to replace his head with that of an elephant, post decapitation?
is it appropriate to describe a pundit who is going crazy about this controversy as ram-pant?
Singhal explains all – Americans! Americans! Americans and the Christians!
Noname #356
I’ve seen fanaticism but never with anything like the intensity I’ve seen in Madras. I’ve studied in Madras and I’ve seen out and out Brahmin supremacists in significant numbers. I’ll also say this though: The people I’ve seen who are most dismissive and openly contemptuous of such people are also brahmins. Also in large numbers. And I agree with you; the DK movement was too successful(at least in this regard) and brahmins feel pushed into a corner.
I was only weighing it to point out that the DK movement had a valid reason and a very constructive history of ensuring fairer education and employment. To ensure that downtrodden people had an opportunity to succeed. Whether there is any continued utility in staying with quotas by caste(The biggest TamBrahm gripe) is a legitimate question for debate but a separate and distinct one from a question on the history of the DK.
“DMK leaders make speeches on atheism, their wives are seen in temples the next day.” – V. Narayan, TN Brahmins Association
Hello all,
It’s nice to read different points of view here. I have been on a reading spree the past few months, and am currently trying to get my hand on as many different versions of the Ramayana as possible. The reason? Curiosity. I think someone had asked in a much earlier post if anyone actually ‘believed’ that Ram actually existed. I don’t know if believe is the right word here, but I do ‘think’ he existed.
Whether he was an avatar – now that is the interesting question! It is widely known that the original play/poem has been added on to over the years. And I am sure as the legend grew so did the unbelievable miracles associated with Ram. But to think that Ram essentially came out of no where, and was created by Valmiki, and that suddenly Ram-fever spread like wild fire and captured the hearts and minds of Bharat Varsh is a very difficult feat indeed. Being as diverse as we are, it is difficult for an idea to become so popular and last for as long. Almost like saying Spiderman was created by Spike Lee and then worshiped by all following generations.
But what I find most interesting about the Ramayan, is the way in which it constantly presents opposing arguments. Ravana is essentially a Villian, but he is a devout Brahmin, does Tapasya and does not violate Sita – he wants to win her. Very strange for a villain. Rama is the wronged one, his wife is abducted, and he does save her, but the way he treats her afterwards is not what one would expect a true ‘hero’ to do. Even avatars have their faults!! This is what makes the story so fascinating 🙂 Noone is perfect – not even Ram!
I found the Lyrics of a song in the Hindi Movie Swades especially interesting, and thats what got me started on my pouring over different versions of the Ramayan : “Man Se Ravan Jo Nikale, Ram Uske Man Mein Hain..” (It would be lost in translation if I explained it in English, or would just appear awkward)
Sri Lanka and India were actually joined as one land mass before the last glacial flooding, so perhaps the Rama Sethu is a remnant of some land formation from back then. Regardless of whether it is holy or not – isn’t it rather amazing that it even exists? Naturally occurring land bridges are a rare enough commodity that I would think they are worth saving anyway. Just my opinion.
I respect those who chose not to follow any faith. At least they have gone through the process of thinking about religion and then decided it is not for them. Mr. K made some rather strong comments on Rama, and I just find that surprising, it just gave me the impression that he is not very tolerant of Ram – Bhakts. But the real shocker was the affidavit filed in the Supreme Court (by the ASI). Almost like they went out of their way.
Dravidian means man who worship the Super Naturals Sea Sky and Mountain. Dravidians have no human god. So Dravidians have all rights to dig the canal.
Actually, the beauty of Hinduism is that you CAN half ass it.
You don’t have to be a believer to support the ram setu theory. The fact that there is a land mass connecting the island of sri lanka to MAINLAND is enough proof that the fictional or non-fictional ramayana is of much relevance. But the issue isn’t religious neither environmental.
When you inherit a post of power and attention, you are deemed with responsiblity to look after the people. By hurling around your personal beliefs, you have not only made yourself look like a fool but also have autmatically dethroned yourself.
Tamil Nadu’s CM should be asked to resign and upon resistance should be kicked out of the country and sent to LANKA(where he belongs) with the help of the military.
correction..this setu is not in south India – Shri Lanka but from Europe to UK~!