[Note: I was trying to use the “embed video” feature now offered by IBN-CNN in India, but it was taking way too long to load. So here’s a link.]
“This is making the South Asian women’s circles headlines,” advises an anonymous tipster. Thanks for alerting us to the extremely ugly incident that took place during New Year’s Eve at the Gateway of India in Mumbai, where the crowd gathered in the same way it does in Times Square in New York City or similar plazas worldwide. Only here, there was an attack on a young couple in the middle of the crowd in which a mob of about 60 men molested the young woman for ten minutes with no one coming to her and her friend’s aid. A photographer for Mid-Day, Shadab Khan, witnessed it all:
On New YearÂ’s Eve, I was supposed to click pictures of revellers at the Gateway of India, but what I witnessed instead has left me shaken.
A young woman was groped by some 60 perverts in plain public view, while her male friend, who tried to protect her, was pushed aside violently.
The 10 harrowing minutes the helpless woman cried for help as the perverts abused her, shook my faith in the city I have lived in all my life. I thought such things happened only in Delhi. I was clearly wrong.
I was at the place at 11.35 pm with my camera, taking pictures that captured the mood of the New Year celebrations. I was atop the temporary watchtowers erected by the cops.
After a few minutes, as the crowd grew larger, I could vaguely make out a youth aged around 25, surrounded by a mob of around 60 to 70 people.
The perverts tore off her dress in the middle of the teeming crowd When I zoomed in, I saw the girl of about the same age being groped by the crowd.
The girl was screaming for help but her voice was drowned in the commotion. Her companion tried to shield her but found himself helpless.
The presence of 50-odd policemen at the site did not deter them. Even as she cried pitifully, I saw them pull at her dress, leaving it torn from below the waist.
In the middle of this pushing and shoving, the girl fell down. The wild men, taking advantage of her, pounced on her with even more venom. After an agonising 10 minutes, the two managed to extricate themselves from the crowd and leave the venue.
Numerous Indian outlets have now picked up the story. I’m waiting for Mumbai’s strong female bloggers like Uma and Sonia to contribute their thoughts; it seems they are still on vacation. Amit Varma has an item on the incident, and picks up on some idiotic interpretations being distilled by so-called experts:
The Times of India brings us some bizarre reactions on the incident. First, Dr Mahinder Watsa, “an expert in sexual medicine,” says:
This is a rage attitude of devil-may-care.And then, Dr Harish Shetty brings capitalism into it:
[T]here is this global selling of ecstasy pushed forward by a market-driven economy, and so, the line of demarcation between fun and ecstasy is getting blurred. Hence, we find some youngsters indulging in such behaviour.
As disgusting as incidents like this one are, it’s just as repulsive when the (men in the) so-called “responsible media” deploy horseshit such as this from (male) so-called experts to explain away actions that are just plain violent, ignorant, criminal and wrong. How is there ever going to be any progress?
Chicken? Egg?
Don’t you think a step in the right direction, is to actually create a perception that, perhaps not all approaches will lead to 60 men grope sessions? Because if respectable approaches are shut down in such a harsh fashion, what avenue is available to the male who does believe in respectable approaches, and gentlemenly stares have? Approaching women is hard enough, it doesn’t help when you’re looking out for SWAT right around the corner. The only way to prevent it is to ensure women do not become mysterious super-human entities in the minds of men, until of course they’re married to one.
The only path to ensuring this is encouragement and facilitation of male-female interaction in adult formative years(18-25). Which means, men must approach, women must also be more accepting and receptive of those approaches. (Especially, in cases where the male hasn’t gained proper execution) Of course, this flies in the face of the arranged marriage logic. But we cannot conclude that arranged marriage is the problem’s root cause, however, curtailing and removing it I think could be a part of the solution.
OK. Approach away! But be ready for more of the kinds of reactions you already received. Probably the girls didn’t mind you saying “hi” to them, but the “authorities” are primed on such behaviour and that reaction was probably a part of their “crackdown” on the “eve teasing” phenomena. Remember that incident in a UP park where the police were ordered to crackdown on “eve teasers” and molesters and they ended up harrassing and arresting actual couples? Even a brother/sister pair?
Like I said, the majority of Indians in India don’t know how to deal with or react to actual mutual displays of public affection or welcomed flirtations.
If I was in charge I would implement mandatory classes on these things in high schools and colleges across the country. The first course would be gender segregated so that both genders could speak about things they might otherwise be shy or intimidated to speak of in front of the opposite and then the second semester course would be interactive, cross-gendered. It would incorporate alot of general human psychology.
One problem in India is that if a man is seen approaching a woman or vice versa, for casual conversation in public, it is deemed “illicit” somehow.
Example;
In USA I might be in a book store and the guy standing next to me in an aisle might be picking up a Rumi book. Having read and enjoyed Rumi I might say, “that is a very good book but I recommend such and such if you really want to get the full flavor of his poetry”. Then the guy might respond with, “oh yeah? Tell me more.” Then the two of us might eventually proceed to the store cafe where we both discuss Rumi over our peppermint lattes. This casual and innocent encounter might well turn into a life-long friendship or who knows – maybe even romance and marriage. Not so in (most of) India. If the same thing happened in a book store there I can guarantee you that at least half of all the uncles and aunties would be glaring at us suspiciously and the staff boys chuckling and murmuring obscenities just under their breath. I would feel more or less like a whore and the innocent guy would probably feel like a lecher.
Another factor to consider is how the women in India fear they might be viewed if they enthusiastically welcome a “hi” or “what’s up” from a stranger. The “authorities” and “elders” seem to be comfy with the idea of a girl or woman getting “unwanted” attention, but how would they see the same girl or woman who appears to welcome it and pull up a chair at her table so you can join her and her friends?
It seems like mutual sexual attraction between strangers or un-married potential partners is not something “acceptable” in most pockets and corners of the country, and I don’t think the “authorities” know how to deal with that yet. Hence the pounce when a relatively innocent young man approaches women in a casual way. The women themselves were not even given a chance to respond either positively or negatively, were they?
I don’t know if it is too late to add, not having read all the comments. Respect towards women needs to start early. It needs to be enforced in schools and colleges and ofcourse at home. In the cities, a majority of the people that indulge in such behavior are mostly somewhat educated from what I have seen.
The usual excuses – “I saw her looking at me, I knew she wanted it”
“She is that kind of girl”; “She enjoyed it” etc etc all the things that are associated with rapists.
I can be proud that when I was in college, I got 3 of my college mates to stop doing this. Hopefully, more people are acting.
Another factor, which I mentioned in another thread is that the arranged marriage system in India provides men who would otherwise not be able to attract a spouse on their own personal merit, with a spouse by default. Whereas a dating culture demands that a man learn to refine his game – approach, behaviour, and often times his personal view of women, women’s rights, etc. In a culture where a wife is almost guaranteed, I feel women are taken for granted and de-valued, in general, though certainly not in all cases.
These men who harrass women do not have to fear that they will not be able to attract a local potential wife in their life due to a bad reputation, because a marriage will be arranged for them amongst women they don’t know.
Dabba, For a long time defense lawyers used “woman of lose morals” BS by way of legal argument. Fortunately it’s no longer allowed as a legal tactic. You might want to look up the term “Rape by judiciary” which explains why the pigs mentioned above do what they do. I will try to post the link if I get a chance. Brief explanation below. A few brave women who actually register a police case get harassed every step of the way by legal machinery. Making the victim wonder if it’s even worth the trouble.
This is true. I think boys start learning from a young age about the treatment of women through their father. I am not implying that all fathers are abusers, but I’ve seen plenty of men (irregardless of race) tell their spouses to “shut up” or be insulting or demeaning.
This is not to say that the blame should be shifted from the men (young boys) to their past or to the enviornment they were raised in but it is something to be considered.
Oh hello sister, the converse is equally true. if a culture guarantees a wife, it also guarantees a husband. De-valuing a human being into a paycheck is no better than devaluing a human being into a sex object. And I’d say, both parties are devaluing each other into “social proof generating things.”
This isn’t entirely true. Are you saying that all men who date are somehow magically more respectful towards women? But you’ve inadvertently touched upon another point, that a dating culture clearly benefits the woman. A woman needn’t refine her game, behavior, or her personal view of men (which is equally refinable) In fact, she society doesn’t expect her to worry about having game in the first place.
I fail to see whats so surprising about this incident. I grew up in a North Indian town. My “boyhood” was full of going to the local school fair, where the local dadas (if they got a chance) would do similar sh!t. Then I went to the cultured south, for my higher education- being a saala madrasi myself (and no I aint from TN)- same sh!T, different people. Sitting in the dhaba, 3 am, with “tiger whisky”, rotgut and strong, and a man comes over, to ask for a light for his marijuana. He was in the dock for a rape case of a white woman, and he introduced himself like that. City fair, I accompany my classmates, with a small dagger in my pocket, and with many many close calls that evening. My conclusion, India has a seething mass of unemployed, horny, ill-educated, lower income youth who are often very aggressive and likely to do this kind of sh!t when they see an attractive, well dressed memsaab who is not surrounded by a gaggle of other males to protect her. If you are rich, then you can satisfy your carnal desires by doing what pandher and co did (bar the murdering- that takes a special kind of pervert), but if you are horny, young, poor and you dont give a sh!t for authority (which attitude, a life in the hard lane invariably breeds)- this is bound to happen.
What amuses me is the outrage over this. Is this part of India unknown to us all?
What happened to the cop who raped a girl in the station, in mumbai a year or so back.
Face it, till income levels standardize, and every person can afford gameboys or PS-Xs and become “civilized”- this kind of jazz will happen, and keep happening.
Fifty years more, give or take a decade.
And yet women date complete jerks. Kevin Federline case in point, the guys fathered 4 babies, spreading a lot of sperm around
Nice guys finish last.
Anyone check out Donald Trumps wife or any other billionare multi-millionaire or even rap bad boys arm candies
HMF, Lifeisscrewed and Samir all raise valid points.
I disagree that the dating culture does not require women to refine their game. Check out our mass media, it’s all about women refining their game, mainly the looks part of it, in order to attract men and hold their interest. The beauty industry is what? A multi-million or a multi-billion dollar industry? Multi-billion, and then some.
Beyond the physical we now have all kinds of books and pop-psych gurus instructing us on how to tap into and understand the male mind in order to what? Again, attract and keep a man. Make no mistake, the dating culture demands high game from both the male and female.
I also disagree with
Yes, it may be true in some cases, perhaps many, but I have seen young men with no jobs and no future land a wife via arrangement in India time and time again. In fact it is the bride who brings more wealth into the family via her dowry. Many of the brides confided in me that they will be thankful just to get a husband who is moderately nice to them. HUH?
Anyway, the dating culture and the arranged marriage system both have positive and negative aspects. Perhaps a combination of the two – like a dating culture with the option for an informed arranged marriage, could be the answer?
By informed arranged marriage I mean there would be more you know about the person than just their resume or the shade of their skin, but have a period of time where you are allowed to “date” and get to know the nitty gritty of each other. That would of course require boldness on the side of both parties.
Yes, in the metros of India this is happening alot. Probably more than the old-school arrangement. But in the rest of India you really get two people entering into what is supposed to be a lifelong union with someone they barely know at all, if at all. And that is why the low-lifes mentioned in Lifeisscrewed’s post manage to land wives all of the time.
Donald Trump, Federline and the Hip Hopster’s managed to land wives or wifeys because they had something to bring to the table. Be it money, looks, hi-fi lifestyle, charm, romance, true love, sexual expertise, or whatever, they had something some women were in pursuit of. Whether or not those relationships lasted or one will last in the future is another topic of discussion.
Nevertheless I would not look to Hollywood or pop media for examples of successful relationships. Whenever someone enters into a relationship based on need rather than want, there is bound to be trouble. In India many of the young women and men may not want to marry the person whom they are arranged to, yet they do so out of need. That need is, ” I really don’t want to do this but it is important for my family’s name and reputation for me to follow tradition”… or something along those lines. Hence they enter head first into uninformed arranged marraiges.
Nobody can complete us. We are complete unto ourselves. The best relationships are when two fully informed and aware mature adults who are happy with their lives and don’t need anything outside of themselves to feel complete come together, not because they need to, but because they want to.
I just read the news article linked above and saw the pics and my memory was jogged as to an incident that happened to me and another female friend of mine in Connaught Place New Delhi New Years Eve about 5 years ago. We were on a bicycle rickshaw and a huge mob started grabbing our breasts, thighs, butts and vaginas. The rickshaw walla could only peddle slowly through the ever increasing and surrounding crowd. The mob looked as crazed and lustful as the mob pictured in the article. I was very scared, but not surprised, having had similar experiences in the same area before, but instead of one or two guys pinching my butt as I walk, it was like 20 with their hands all over me while riding in a rickshaw.
Eventually the rickshaw walla managed to get us out of there or the crowd just got satiated and decided to stop following us. No one tried to help, and yeah, if I remember correctly there was a cop somewhere along the way. Maybe without my knowledge he said something to disburse the crowd.
As we came out of that busy area and onto a dark, quiet street, a car pulled up along side of us with two men in it and they said they saw everything that happened and that they are worried for us and if we like they can drop us off at our destination. Naturally, we declined their offer.
Subduing approach anxiety (a requirement that clearly falls on the male) is clearly more difficult than walking into a makeup store and choosing a lipstick. Honestly, research has shown women gripe over such choices in order to impress other women. The coarse level stuff (easy stuff) is for male attraction, whereas the fine level stuff (rouge vs. crimson mascara) usually goes unnoticed by males. As for the “how to keep a man,” books and gurus, it totally contradicts the standard “women have complex minds, men are easy to understand” line of thinking that most women subscribe to. Personally, I subscribe to it as well. I think we have to spend a lot more time understand what makes you all tick rather than vice versa, hence, we have a more difficult job cultivating “game.”
This must be a severly outlying case. If a backwards culture cultivates the notion that women are built for child rearing and husband having, then it equally cultivates the idea of the male being the primary if not the sole provider. The two are directly proportional. “No jobs and no future” is a relative measurement. If the male’s job and future is adequate for the women in their “applicant pool,” then the union is accepted. Essentially, if in the local societies eyes, the woman has even less of a future being on her own, then the marriage takes place. I’d say in nearly all cases, the surrounding people feel that irrespective of the man’s situation, the woman is better off with him rather than not.
Yes, they feel the woman is better off with him than without him because the thought of “living alone” or without a “pati parameshwar” is unthinkable to those types. In many parts of India the men never leave home to acquire self sufficiency and independence. They live in the homes of their parents their whole life, so that means they never have to worry about buying a house. And of course, they never have to worry about starving while in the house because whether they have a job or not, there is always roti to go around. Hence I’ve seen alot of jobless guys, who time to time try to hook up with a friend of a friend to rent out a room on the roof of the family house to some out of towner to acquire pocket money or something. Or they might invest a little in the Indian stock market. They don’t work daily 9 to 5 jobs at all, but nonetheless they got a roof over their heads and Mama makes them roti every night. Many, many, many men live like this. And they have wives. Those wives usually bring a pretty good dowry, new fridge, motorbike, some lakh ruppees for the guy to spend as well. But yet it is somehow thought that the woman is better off with him than without. Go figure.
As far as the male psyche being easy to figure out; not. At least to a woman.
I’m reading a book about it now and it has given me great insight into my SO’s behaviour. Yeah, men may be more simple, but to understand just how simple they are, and techniques for women to simplify their behaviour towards men to get better results from them, alot of women would benefit from reading a few good books, even just one. It has helped me. And it’s worked! Women are generally more analytical than men, and our tendency is to analyze relationships. In general I’ve not seen alot of men doing the same. So women need to simplify a bit in order to understand men and get the reactions out of them they want. On the other side, men have to become a bit more deep and analytical to connect with women.
Nowadays alot of women put their egos on the line by being the first to initiate contact with a man, or a relationship with him, or take the relationship to the next level. So we also experience approach anxiety and the consequent other anxieties that follow, if an approach turns into something beyond a rejection.
This entire retort was well put, but very unnecessary. I never said I personally agree with the assertion the women are better off, just that the surrounding society believes that way. So your stance that men “with no jobs or futures” get wives is rendered moot, as the people who sanction the union (falsely) believe she is being helped.
You’re dancing with the words here. By definition, simplifying a process is… simpler.
Most women I know usually talk very pejoratively about understanding men, the implication being that it’s done with very little difficulty. You’re quite honestly the first person to even suggest that it’s equal. Assuming anyone else is even reading this and we’ve strayed quite far away from the central topic, I’m not sure if anyone else would comment on this point.
This is a load of horsesh*t and you know it. Women approach men in social settings about as often as Vanilla Ice gets respect as a real rapper. I had a girl tell me after we met, “I never call, I only call back”
Why does this make me think of K-Fed and Britney.
Mistress of Spices is indeed a very honest person. Welcome back, MoS.
Precisely, one cannot use the exception to prove the rule.
Not in my circles. Women approach men almost as much as the reverse. And when it comes to furthering the relationship, it’s mostly the women who put their hearts on the line in an attempt to get commitment.
I’m in my thirties so maybe it’s an age group thing.
And there are alot of books out there that asure women that although it is difficult to understand men, it is surely do-able.
In fact just today on the cover of Psychology Today there was a pick of a man and woman blindfolded and the title of the main article of this month’s issue is just about that – understanding the opposite gender.
All I can say is that your circles are waaaaaaaaay outside the norm. Regardless, even you must acquiesce that we live in a society that expects males to initiate contact, and subdue approach anxiety much more, irrespective of what you’ve observed in twilight zone.
Furthering a relationship, and male-female understanding during an extended relationship lies well outside the realm of “game” If you recall we were speaking about dating culture & game, and in that restricted sense, men clearly have more work cut out for them, which brings me back to my original contention: A dating culture clearly benefits the woman.
Why else is Chris Rock’s joke about man’s simple needs: “Feed me, Fck me, and Shut the Fck up” so funny? Because there’s a ring of truth to it.
That is NOT all men want. Read Love Smart by Dr. Phil.
Yes I’m bigging it up coz the advice therein worked for me.
Women’s needs are also simple, somewhere along the same lines as Feed me, F**k me and Shut the F up as well.
So then if both needs are simple and more or less the same – how come all of the misunderstanding?
Dr. Phil explains it all in his book.
Basically, the needs of both men and women include Feed me, F**k me and Shut up, but those are not exclusively the only needs.
And if a dating culture clearly benefits women more than men what’s wrong with that?
It’s about time something in society benefits women!
In balance, he was ranked at number 4 on a list of the 100 unsexiest men (link) . 😉
Nothing at all. But at the same time I agree with HMF that trying to approach and date a girl in India is ridiculously hard. There are no clear rules to be followed on how it is to be done or not done, and everyone from the girl to the local panwallah will have the least flattering estimate of your intentions. Though I know things are changing, etc etc.
I don’t find Dr. Phil to be sexy looking either. Does that mean he’s never been sexy looking to his wife or that he’s not a good husband or that he does not have some great insights into male psychology?
And yeah, trying to date in India is harder than over here, for various reasons (some good, some bad).
But I think HMF is not living in India.
I think courses on this sort of thing should be given to youths in schools all over the world, especially India.
I don’t think women want us to shut the f**k up, and therein lies the difference. They want endless chatter.
Again maybe it’s an age thing.
Adult women with busy jobs and full lives don’t desire “endless chatter”, rather, quality communication.
Chris Rock is a comedian, so obviously he’ll exaggerate, but comedians, in particular Chris Rock, are funny because their jokes have a significant element of truth within it. That’s the point I was trying to make.
I can think of a few other societal benefits given to women:
I’m not saying women don’t get the short end of the stick in other instances, but the balance of power is not as unidirectional as say, between white america and black america.
I don’t live in India, but I only brought up approaching women in that context to suggest it might prevent men in India categorizing women into “mysterious, gorgeous super object that I can never understand, only cop a feel when there’s no impunity”
that’s mean to read “..feel when there is impunity”
that is of course, assuming anyone is reading.
Is this ever bleeding discussion now going to take the turn of which gender has more woes? (insert scarcasm if it’s not quite clear)
i dont find it surprising at all.. its shocking as such incidents always are, but i find it amusing that people take on this whole, “oh my god… it cant happen in mumbai” attitude. my skirt and stockings were ripped off in a mumbai local while i screamed and cried. this is our country and nobody cares. in ten years in delhi i have yet to be abused so badly…
Of the three only number 1 still holds somewhat true in today’s world.
I’ve seen many cases of all three. And not just in Eastern/Asian cultures. Enough to justify a clear trend. In fact, if anything is changing the most, (with the large recruit demand the US military is asking of its population), it’s number 1.
We obviously move in two very different circles. Most of the families I know have must have both parents working to just pay the bills and live a decent life. I’ve never met anybody who can “waffle” on important life decisions such as whom to marry, how to make money, etc.
Nonetheless, if someone does have the time and space to waffle on such important decisions, hats off to him/her. I don’t begrudge them a luxary I would love to be able to afford.
Morrocco sounds the same;
http://catinrabat.blogspot.com/2006/04/running-gauntlet.html
ah yes. the infamous circles rears its ugly head. Why do we even use “circle” to signifiy our social group. I think ellipse would be more geometrically correct. We obviously don’t have the same connection with everyone, so a equi-radius figure isn’t truly correct. That’s just an aside.
I can’t believe this point is even being contested. If I had a nickel for every time I heard a woman say, “I’m gonna do X or Y…or else I’ll just marry rich” …I could be one of these woman’s suitors. And I think the real point here is expectation. Society expects men to support, I know many women who work in film, media, nonprofit sector, teaching, etc.. only because their husbands pull enough dough to pay the rent. It’s a matter of data collection.
ah yes. nice tactic, reframe the argument to a specifc case. I never made any mention specifically of important life decisions. And again the point is expectaction, men are expected to make decisions quicker, and firmer, and be able to deal with the consequences.
HMF-
Men are expected by who to make decisions quicker and firmer? In your workplace? In your home? In your place of worship or your social circle?
Please define who you are talking about.
I must say that alot of your posts sound like you are a tad bitter and/or a victim of personal heartbreak in the love department.
All of the above. When certain behaviors are shared by a large group of people, and then internalized, normally we call such a belief “societal” or intrinsic to society, and it’s usally determined by extended observation.
In responding to this point: I’m like the president, stuck between a rock and a hard place. If I become defensive of your accusation, I’m immediately guilty. If I become sarcastic and say, “Yep you’re right.. etc etc.” you have more evidence of the bitterness.