[Was encouraged to share my narrative – it’s a little different than my usual posts here. Trying something new!]
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p>She stepped on the bus wearing a neon green kurtha top bejeweled with yellow rhinestones. She gave me this knowing look and sat down purposefully in the seat kitty-corner to me. She smiled. “Where are you from?”
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p>I looked at her skeptically. I hate being asked that question. She didn’t look desi for sure, just maybe desi. I always decide in that split-second after a quick analysis how I’m going to respond. “My parents are from Bangladesh.” I paused. I thought in that sassy way, if she’s going to ask, doesn’t that give me the right to ask too? “Where are you from?”
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p>”South Africa.” There it is again! Another one from the South Asian via Africa diaspora!
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p>She first asked if I liked to shop. I said of course, but you know, I’m a student so I don’t shop, really. She then proceeded to ask me for advice on the different malls and where I liked to shop the best. She then asked me if I did anything for Halloween. At this point I realized she was just interested in speaking to someone, anyone. So I told her I did do something for Halloween. I had gone to West Hollywood on Halloween night and partook in the madness that it is known for. “Did you do anything?”
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p>”Oh no, we don’t believe in Halloween. Or Valentine’s Day. You see I’m an Indian Muslim.”
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p>”Um, I’m Muslim too. It’s just fun to dress up.”
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p>I don’t really get what there is to NOT believe. And seriously, who doesn’t ‘believe’ in Valentine’s Day?
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p>She then asked if I was married. “Um, no, not married. I’m a student.” In typical retaliatory conversation style, “Are you married?”
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p>It was easy to open her up, though once she started talking, her thick South African accent had me leaning forward trying to decipher what exactly she was trying to say. She really did just want to talk, and asking questions for people like her is just an opening for herself to talk. She was like wealth of diasporic information just waiting to explode. I asked everything about her diaspora experience, and only stopped myself near the end of the bus ride as I realized that everyone on the bus was listening to our conversation.
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p>She had been born in South Africa. They had lived there for 10 generations and she really missed it- all her family lived there, her aunties, grandparents. She moved here 13 years ago with her family. She’s 35, and she’s married to a 53 year old man. An arranged marriage with a Muslim man from Bombay. She likes him ok, “he’s nice…” she said. But I got the feeling that she married late, and was simply happy to have found someone to marry her. She referred to her husband in more paternalistic terms, and kind of led me to think she not believing in Valentine’s Day had a lot to do with him. She got married here in the US (“Hotels so expensive! We got married in our big backyard.”), and lives here with her husband and her in-laws. She visited Bombay once with her husband, but she didn’t like it very much, “So dirty,” she said. The US was the compromise, but she missed South Africa, horribly.
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p>I asked her if she lived in Durban when in South Africa. She said, yes. But then she gave me this odd shocked look and asked how I knew. I mumbled, “Oh, I uh, study the South Asian diaspora
” she kinda just kept looking confused and kept talking. Later on she said something about how she felt so alone here, and how she hated Los Angeles. “Oh right, because in Durban it’s a tighter knit community and desis live in ethnic enclaves.” I realized then just how academic I had made myself.
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p>She got off the bus, and I didn’t get her name. I was left with only one question remaining – on the racial tension she might have experienced in South Africa, but I had been too nervous to ask because of how the bus riding eavesdroppers would perceive that line of questioning. I am reminded how I used to have so many of these identity conversations with random people- I had so many especially in when traveling in India when I asked everyone and their mother where their family was during partition. The stories I collected from that trip were rich in historical narratives worthy of Dalrymple.
It’s crazy, always, to see how easily people open up and share their whole story in a matter of the time of a short bus ride. Maybe it’s because of my fascination with the creation of political and/or ethnic identities in the desi diaspora that compels me to ask these questions every time my path crosses someone remotely brown or maybe it’s because I’m still searching for my own (hi)story. Whatever the reason, I realize that sometimes as annoying as the question “Where are you from?” can be, just sometimes, it is an open door to some very interesting histories.
Hahaha true true. That’s a pet peeve of mine! That question usually allows for so much tomfoolery though I love it. And it’s usually from a desi professional. In NYC what you do professionally is such a moot issue compared to all the other things people do. Everyone is doing 3 other things on the side and probably far better than their professional job so I find the whole “what do you do” business disconcerting.
There are far better ways to size someone up and take them to task 😉 ie asking about their political party affiliation or what their favorite show on NPR is or if they like the Mets or the Yanks. All very tricky questions.
It is one of the two things a desi absolutely has to know about another
this is an american thing, right? seeing as how large numbers of brown people in the homelands are illiterate….
Illiterate people have jobs too… If you go to a village in India, these are the first two things they’d ask. If they think you are too young to be doing anything useful, they’d ask what your dad does(no, never the mom 😉 ) ….
It’s not just brown people:
I’ve been thinking about this all day. I almost didn’t know how to reply, but I knew I had to come back and speak up, because upon reflection, I think a lot of the things being said about my comment are unfair and I want to clarify my intent.
Before I do that, I want to apologize to Ennis, someone I respect and enjoy as a blogger. I did not know you were the one who encouraged Taz to post this but that’s not important, my comment would’ve been vastly improved if I hadn’t included the first half of it, since my intention to be constructive (though sharply honest) would’ve been more obvious. I am sorry. I also want to apologize to Taz, because it is hard to put yourself out there and I had no right to discourage that. I could have said what I did in a much better way and for that I am sorry.
Having said that, I am not a troll. I am not a “fucking tool”. I am a regular reader (since fall ’04) and mostly a lurker. I commented anonymously because I didn’t think to not do so, at that early hour. I have nothing to hide and quite honestly, I don’t understand how it changes anything to include my email address with my comment, but I have done so now, since that is apparently what is required in this club’s bylaws.
That’s right. Club. That is what this website is turning in to, since it is obvious that valid criticism is not welcome. I would’ve appreciated and agreed with complaints that I was less than tactful, but the personal attacks and knee-jerk outrage I could’ve done without. There is a climate here which prevents any disagreement or deviation from the prevailing sentiment. The number of you who leaped to Taz’s defense and defended her awful prose are proof of this. The blogger has no words, to paraphrase a famous sentence about royalty. Taz is not a strong writer. She is an activist whose work should be praised, but that has nothing to do with her ability to communicate as a blogger. Separate the two, because even she is aware of how they are different things. I don’t know if she or the rest of you are aware that one doesn’t immunize her from the other. I’m an excellent cook, that doesn’t mean I would ever pretend that I’m a writer, nor would I throw such a non-sequitir out there if someone attacked this comment.
Historically, Taz’s entries have always had issues, from a writing perspective. I have often wondered if she bothered reading them before publishing them, they read that poorly. After exactly two years of reading this site, I would confidently say that in my obviously reviled opinion, she is the worst blogger to ever be featured here. The last sentence of this very post would’ve aided in proving this point of mine, but I see that in the last day, this has been edited aggressively and the use of the word “sometimes”, which if I recall correctly occurred three times in the final sentence of the original version, has been addressed as has the mangled formation of most sentences. That’s fine. But I know what I read last night and I know what I’ve read for months and that is what I reacted to– and that reaction is something I have a right to. If you write for a blog, especially in this style, you do open yourself up for constructive criticism. Not personal attacks, ungrateful words, misogyny or anything else besides sincere feedback. Absolutely, or at least I would hope that is the case.
As painful as this is for me to type, yes, you do have to be a writer to write a good story. That’s just logical. This is a blog which, once upon a time (especially before Manish left/Amardeep became a father/Anna…I don’t know) was known for outstanding writing. This also is not about you or your comments or what you have shared here. I don’t know whether or not you can write and though I don’t mean it cruelly, I don’t care, because you don’t write for this blog. Your skills and your argument are irrelevant, but I appreciate all the attitude with which you commented, I do.
To reiterate: I am sorry that I offended so many good people on a blog I like, but I will not apologize for having an opinion and wanting to share it. If there is a next time, I will phrase my words more carefully, but in the meantime, I hope that people can learn that not everyone who comments anonymously is evil and that yes, it is okay to disagree.
Original Lurker, thanks for this. Speaking only for myself, I would comment that the problem is not commenting anonymously; the problem is when a comment is both anonymous and toxic. As you realize, your comment was toxic — specifically the first sentence. Constructive criticism, as you have said, is absolutely part of the process here and is welcome and indeed expected. Toxic is not constructive, and when toxic comes from an anonymous handle, it’s even less constructive, because it means there’s no off-thread way for, say, the blogger to answer your point and perhaps try to elicit what is constructive within it. Instead it becomes a whole tamasha on the thread, as happened here, and that does everybody a disservice.
On the question of writing style/chops and personal narrative, there’s actually a very interesting discussion to be had, if we can step away from specific people and posts. Clearly, a strong personal story that is written in unintelligible fashion, loses its strength. And a weak or trivial story will be weak or trivial no matter how felicitously it is written. Moreover, holding a narration to a particular standard of writing quality can result in deterring the person from telling the story, which is a terrible outcome when there is a story begging to be told. So, we should step back from absolute judgments, and err on the side of being nice, while at the same time sharing our critical opinion. Positive energy helps to shape positive outcomes.
Peace
To “what the evidence shows” @ 99:
BrooklynBrown’s criticism (go back and read it) was of Razib’s ONE-LINE comments that go as follows:
BB quoted these as “brownz,” Razib answered that no, it is “brown.” That Razib uses the term “brownz” with a “z” as a plural noun in many of his comments, is something we all know.
As I was saying earlier, it’s far better to be nice. When you go out of your way to dis someone, you risk not only wasting everyone’s time, but also falsifying the facts, at which point, you dis only yourself.
Word.
To the original lurker –
I don’t have a problem with being criticized. I don’t think Taz does either. The issue is one of constructive criticism. You see, when somebody is harshly negative, it is not only hurtful to the target, but it changes the tone of subsequent comments, and the entire thread can spiral down hill.
I appreciate that you took the time to express yourself in a more clear and constructive fashion. I wish your original comment had been more in this vein earlier.
I know someone who isn’t going to appreciate that phrasing 🙂
Seriously dude/tte, in what parallel universe would the line:
“..sorry taz…you are just not a strong enough writer to pull this off.” be considered constructive criticism?
This is AFTER deleting the crack at the promoter (as it turned out Ennis).
If you had taken the time you took in your second comment the first time around, the argument would have taken a whole different tone.
Original lurker,
I respect your returning to explain yourself. I think the standard of writing on this blog is high. No, it’s not Hemingway, it’s not Tolstoy. But, heck, who is? I see nothing but spelling mistakes on the NY Times and the BBC. I come here for the freshness, for the personal take, for the directness. I understand that blogging is something that happens on the fly.
What you refer to as a “club,” others view as a community. What that means is that disagreement, especially over trivial things like prose style, should be civil. Respect others, show some tact–see for example your dig, again, at the bloggers in your penultimate paragraph–and don’t get too dramatic a sense of your “rights.” The reality is that most of these bloggers are smarter and more accomplished people than most of us are. Yes, it’s true. That deserves some respect. And they put it out there daily. Double dose of respect.
You don’t have to like what you read here. But neither do the bloggers have to put up with aggression.
Apololgy not accepted.
If I have to go through 4 hours of writing/editing and a mutineer/editor for each post, and am still open to criticsm (yes, I do change posts often based on kindly editing readers that contact me via e-mail) and a hundred comment deep, you yourself find the need to EDIT your own comment? Kind of… ironic?
Nu-uh. Not forgiven.
There is a difference between demanding well written fiction or a report on something and communicating a personal narrative. A narrative need not follow any strict path of proper communication simply if the story is strong and a reader identifies. I think you are out of line to imply that Taz needs to have some prescribed way of writing that might appeal to you in order to come across as a strong writer. And you are wrong obviously because she managed to conjure up a discussion and relatable experiences. That is what maks a good blog post irrespective of how it’s written.
As a person who considers herself a writer and is very well aware of my shortcomings I have literally thousands of comments over years of writing that prove to me over and over again that a story is far far more important than how it’s communicated. Touching someone positively and negatively with your writing is incredibly difficult and far more important than crossing your t’s and dotting your i’s.
Frankly I don’t think you understand what constructive criticism is. You were simply being mean spirited. Even if you eliminated the first sentence there is nothing constructive about telling someone their writing sucks and you have nothing more to add to the criticism. One liners don’t beget any respect especially when they are nasty. You might learn to better communicate yourself before you post one liners to put someone down. It isn’t about being part of some “club” it’s about basic manners and respecting the space you share with others.
Actually, Siddhartha, the brown/brownz distinction is, to me, tangential. My point was really a complaint from someone who’s unable to read SM at work most days, that reading often informative comments on interesting topics can be made laborious when some commenters choose to either spam terms like brown or choose to attack the thread author. The first is insulting to other readers, and the second, which has been happening frequently — especially to the women of SM — is insulting to the author. Neither progress the thoughts of the piece, and both come across to me as e-peen expressions, often from men.
I’m writing about it now because if the orginal lurker is suggesting a standard for posts, there should be a standard for comments as well. I know that I’d be one of the first people to say that in the past, especially when I first started posting on SM, I haven’t met that standard at all, but I’m trying to be better about that now, when I do comment.
Peace y’all, The Pretentious Prig
I know. That’s what makes the comment from “What the record says” even more ridiculous.
1) if you really do have a constructive criticism, you can take it back channel. e.g., i find the header at pass the roti distracting. it makes me hungry, and i’m watching my weight, so i emailed saurav and told him that i thought it was a distracting header and the reason why.
2) if you don’t like the quality of posts, you don’t need to read it. if you have a concern about the quality of the posts, or the nature of the posts, see #1. step up and be a man/woman and contact the powers that be. don’t leave a hit & run comment.
3) i don’t comment here as much as i did in the past. that’s probably because the posts don’t speak to me as much, and the comments go in a different direction, etc. etc. etc. now isn’t it special that i told you all of that? who cares. the time i spend reading and commenting on blogs is my own. same with you. leaving anonymous comments about how sucky a post is is kind of like leaving a turd on someone’s doorstep because you don’t like the new paint job on their house. you could write them a note, or talk to them about it.
4) the people who invest their time posting on this blog are investing a lot of time, and they have feelings, they’re people. this blog has a lot of traffic, so it is kind of brave to stick their necks out like they do. i might not agree with them in terms of what they say, or how they say it, or what their priorities are, but i think it is important to give them their due. i’m a blogger myself who runs smaller websites so i can appreciate how much time this takes, and especially with such a large commentariat it must feel draining and overwhelming sometimes. i’ve already suggested that this blog doesn’t speak to me as much as it did 6 months ago, but i’m just one person, and SM is a small part of my life. on the other hand, for the people posting it is a bigger part of their lives, and they put a lot of effort and emotion into it i suspect (i can gather this from talking to & knowing some of the principals). on the balance is it worth it to hurt someone’s feelings to “right” the blog in the direction that you prefer?
5) manish has his own blog, called ultrabrown. if i miss his voice i can go check it out. i think that’s a little better than leaving turds on people’s doorsteps and calling it constructive criticism.
Original lurker:
I want to echo Kobayashi-san’s sentiment, I respect that you came back, because to me that means you are sincere about your words and about wanting to be understood, even if you aren’t flawless in how you go about doing that. I also think it showed class to apologize and I want you to know that I appreciated your comment even if others didn’t. Putting your email there does change things, it makes you a real person and not someone who lives under a bridge; it also makes it “ouch” a bit less that you included me in that second-to-last paragraph of yours. Your mentioning my infrequent posting made me think about a lot of things, especially you. After a little while, I had an epiphany.
Since you are real to me now, I want you to know that I feel compassion after reading this thread, b/c I can just imagine that “tone” is something you have a problem with and that you might be often misunderstood and that might be what is happening to you right now, right here. I know what that feels like and I know it can make you feel lonely. That’s just a nasty beginning to a vicious cycle which exacerbates the situation and makes it even harder to express your real self successfully.
And yet, I know the other side all too well: if anyone is an expert on sepia-flavored haterade, it’s me, since more of it has been aimed my way than anywhere else. I guess what I am poorly trying to say (hence, my compassion) is that I actually agree with parts of what you said and I’m kind of touched that you came back. I want to encourage positive behavior like that…I don’t want it buried in a landslide of retaliatory negativity. I want us all to feel like we can change and be better mutineers. When someone apologizes, that is an opportunity for grace and a moment when change is so very possible. I say it to all lurkers, especially at meetups, but I hope you comment again. Not anonymously, of course. 🙂
Lurker, I’m sure you’ve had your fill today. Good that you came forward with your second post. I hope you got what was missing from your first post. It was more a personal attack with no constructive criticism.
Now back to the post. I found it interesting that the SA woman identified herself as Indian muslim after being 10th gen. Can’t imagine 10th gen person in US to identify themselves as ethnic whatever. More melting here eh?
For me, in the beginning I used to enjoy the ‘where are you from’ conversations, but no so much any more. I’m generally bored with the conversation – its basically the same with minor variations. I’m not interested in seeking their personal info, and not interested in divulging mine. I’ve tried the ‘I’m from SFO’ type responses; don’t fly. They want to keep digging ‘cos my accent doesn’t explain away SFO or whatever.
A few times I’ve had the feeling of not being welcome too. Very recently we were sightseeing in CO hinterlands when we chanced upon a nice pastoral scene. Also saw a couple of older people painting. I walked over to check out the painting that an older lady was doing. Admired it, verbalized my admiration… She asks inevitably – where are you from? Ok, I try my SFO line. nope. Where are you ORIGINALLY from. sighs inwardly. India. What do you do? ‘work with computers’ I say. Now she says – SFO is not India! Well, this could mean anything, however, her tone and the way she said it seemed to say – you don’t belong here. I excused myself and am on my way.
Like I said, I’m tired of having to say where I’m from.
You’re from San Francisco Airport?
Like a lot of other issues that are talked about on SM, I simply cannot identify with this. I’ve never had a problem with people asking me where I was from. It’s never been a loaded question for me that makes me aggressive and/or defensive. I’ve never had a problem with people using words like spice/exotic/elephants and what not while referring to India/Indians. The list goes on. It’s days like this that I begin questioning my “brownness”…well, maybe not.
the “where are you from” question also sets me spinning, mostly because i can never give a precise answer that i’m content with. there’s an older gentleman who is going through early senility who lives down the hall from me and EVERY time i see him, he forgets that we’ve met before and we go through the same question/answer session: what’s your name/how do you say it/ where are you from/ no, where are really from/ what’s the best indian restaurant in town.
i say i’m from cali, he says, no where are you really from. i say well my parents are from india and HE is content, but inside my head i’m like, uhhh i’m just saying this so i can get over with this conversation as soon as possible, but what’s really spinning in my head is, well technically both sides are from lahore pre-partition, but then i’m like no, technically my dad’s side is from a village out there but had moved to the city and my mom’s side is from peshawar and had moved to the lahore, but then i’m like well technically they were up from kabul but had moved down to peshawar and before that, they had migrated from their village down to kabul. so with all this internal rambling, the question “where you from” makes me feel like my family’s been migrating for a longg while but not necessarily all of it has been crossing official borders, so for me, more often than not, this question is often an exercise in providing a convenient quick answer.
also, anna (# 119), i really admire your generosity of spirit that you come forth with all of us strangers. you are a great example of how to community build person-at-a-time. yay@you!
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No. Neither does my kid, who’s spent most of his life here. Maybe teenage angst will change all that and he will feel compelled to dicuss identity issues on these fine threads 🙂
Agree.
Disagree.
Re: Razib’s “brown” posts.
Post #99 by “What the evidence shows” was unnecessary and vindictive. As someone who has also been on the receiving end of that sort of thing once or twice on SM, where people come out of nowhere and say “Jai obviously thinks X, and here’s the smoking-gun evidence”, followed by out-of-context links to long-forgotten comments on threads from many months previously, that kind of behaviour strikes me as ridiculous and pretty small-minded. It’s not only a highly opportunistic way to self-righteously jump on the cyberlynching bandwagon, it also makes me wonder exactly how such people actually have the time for such petty behaviour.
In case the matter needs clarification for those who are not frequent visitors to SM, Razib’s occasional single-word posts where he just writes “….brown” are an ongoing joke. He’s just kidding. It’s because myself and a couple of other people here have humorously accused him on previous occasions of having an obsession with the term “brown” and dropping the word into his posts at every conceivable opportunity. Which is why Razib randomly posts that word on various threads now and then. Again — it’s just a Sepia Mutiny inside-joke.
I can guarantee you that we celebrate Valentines Day with the same zeal in South Africa, believe me, high school in SA on Valentines Day is the same as high school in US at Valentines Day. Halloween is another story, but my mum did say that her gym was decorated for Halloween this year, so maybe it’s catching on. It could be the lady on the bus was from a very traditional family therefore had a ‘Jehovah Witness’ kind of sensibility. I liked the post Taz, light and interesting. BTW I always have people tell me my accent is very English and therefore easily understandable, I have to do a survey, is my accent thick…..
But what kind of community? I think some people use this as a message board of the old internet, and other people use it as a community site in the newer internet style. I think that leads to a lot of the difference in tone. For example, my tone jars with the tone of people who use SM as a community site, and who contact each other backchannel and such. I appear totally tone deaf in that circumstance, and as a result I would actually say I feel pretty uncomfortable as a community member here. But thats understandable to me.
I use this forum as a message board where the ideas of the message board apply, its all pretty much left on the comment board, and the level of expectation of interaction is much more limited. I think there are other people who probably use the comments section in a similiar way. But I think the result is a lack of connection with the other, frankly more interactive style of communication. It probably behooves people to use the site in the community-oriented way, as otherwise one begins to look like a e-peen character. The style of a message board writer is more like grafiti than the cocktail conversation metephor that guides the community-oriented style. More bombastic and less interested in back and forth, but also with a certain elan.
Just something to consider however, that some of the people who use this site and appear to be tone-dead may not be, and in “real life” much more gracious or personable then they appear here.
CR: your accent is adorable 🙂
Ennis! Funny guy. Ha.
If there were an Amelia I could be Viktor Navorsky!
I have no problem with the “where are you from?” question and ask it often myself. However, the burden is then placed on the asker to follow up the response with something interesting and relevant. It’s a valid conversation starter and like most starters (e.g., fine weather we’re having today, don’t you think?) the idea is to build tangents off a starting point until you get to some place interesting. Quite frankly, having a problem with “where are you from?” comes off as possible insecurity about identity.
Sahej #128, interesting analysis which may explain the background behind comments which I think of as “trolls.” I just thought those were people with no sense of courtesy.
It is interesting to me that lurker’s second comment hit most of the right points about constructive criticism vs. hateful comments, and yet lurker’s idea of what is constructive criticism vs. my idea of such are apparently totally different!