Okay. This one is for you dozen tipsters who are jonesing for our take on this article about “”love-cum-arranged,” marriages that appears in today’s NYTimes.
Yawn. Haven’t I read this article like a dozen times before? It’s always half of an article where they drum up the angle that they wanted to write in the first place instead of doing any real reporting.
These young people may have come of age in an America of “Moonstruck” and “Dawson’s Creek,” but in many cases they have not completely accepted the Western model of romantic attachment. Indeed, some of the impetus for assisted marriage is coming from young people themselves – men and women who have delayed marriage into their late 20’s and early 30’s, said Ayesha Hakki, the editor of Bibi, a South Asian bridal and fashion magazine based in New Jersey.
“That has been the most remarkable trend,” Ms. Hakki said, citing the example of a male acquaintance, who, after dating on his own, turned to his parents for guidance.
As Madhulika Khandelwal, a historian who has studied Indians here, said, “Young people don’t want to make individual decisions alone.”
[cough]-bullshit-[cough]. It’s not that young people don’t want to make “individual decisions alone” and have decided that their parent’s “guidance” is best. No. It’s that they are giving up and no longer want to fight “the system.” Ladies in their late twenties can only pursue self-absorbed or commitment-phobic guys (and there is nothing wrong with being commitment phobic 
) for so long before they throw in the towel and opt for “traditional,” by default. Likewise, guys are forced to deal with women who are too neurotic to date mostly because their parents are breathing down their necks to get married. We (Indians raised in this country) turn to our families for the exact same reason as someone of another culture would turn to their’s, except for the fact that there is more pressure to turn to them. This article and others like it always seem to dodge the truth in order to accentuate the exotic “embrace” of our culture. What the article describes is more than just being set up on a “blind date,” which it compares it to. Lots of cultures practice the art of the blind date, whether through family or friends, and it isn’t particularly newsworthy. When journalists single out Indians they do so with the implication that the family’s fingerprints are all over the entire courtship process. If that is the case then explaining it away as a willing “return to tradition” makes my eyes roll. Here is some more bullshit:
The embrace of more traditional habits is apparent in other ways. Weddings are often elaborate and last three or four days. Families of the betrothed often still consult a Hindu astrologer who schedules wedding ceremonies according to the stars. When Anamika Tavathia, 24, was engaged to a young Indian she met in college, his family visited hers to propose on his behalf and the priest determined they should marry on June 26 of this year between 10:30 and 11 a.m.This fall is expected to be an unusually busy wedding season in Indian communities, because many couples postponed weddings last year when many days were deemed inauspicious.
Are you f*cking kidding me? I guess the Times decided that the article could use a bit more masala when they added that last sentence. As a quick aside though, I made up a drinking game for when I go to Indian weddings. Any time someone uses the word “auspicious” you take a shot at the reception.
Despite its groundings in pragmatism, assisted marriage is spoken about among some young Indians in highly romanticized terms – implicit in it is the cinematic idea that immediate attraction should result in an eternity spent together.
Damn. I hope that’s not true because that would mean that a lot of my close friends are totally abnormal.
Kesha Petal’s sister married a man to whom she was introduced through her aunts. She decided to marry him the day after they met. “A lot of my friends,” Kesha Petal said, her eyes gleaming, “tell me you know in an instant.”
Oh, oh. I just vomited all over myself. Speaking of weddings though, did you guys see this long-overdue article in the Guardian?
The wedding beast, I fear, is swallowing us all, and Liz Savage, the editor of Brides Magazine (circulation 68,000), confirms it. The British bridal industry is worth £5bn a year and growing, and Savage cites a faintly nauseating buffet of factors. First, people are increasingly paying for their own weddings, thus unleashing a torrent of Personal Romances-style fantasies on us all. “Fathers of the bride are no longer automatically footing the bill,” she says. “Couples have more money to spend and they want the wedding to be an expression of their personal style.”The key driver, it becomes clear, in the excess of the modern wedding is pseudo-sophistication and grisly one-upmanship. “Our tastes have become much more sophisticated and glamorous,” says Savage. “I got married nine years ago and there was none of this fuss over the menu and what we were drinking. Then you wouldn’t have dreamed of turning your nose up at the wine but today we are putting ourselves under far more pressure … Our readers spend more time thinking about the reception than anything else. The attention to detail is amazing – the choice of napkin ring, how they are going to tie the napkins and how are the place settings going to look. It doesn’t matter if they are traditional or getting married in winter or abroad, our readers want to surprise and delight their guests. People are much more creative and imaginative today. They want their wedding to be talked about and to give their guests the best they can. They really want the wow factor.”
[begin rant] It’s true. It’s far worse for Indian weddings though. One of my closest friends and his fiance were in town a couple weeks ago to do some wedding shopping. They both advised me never to get married because the actual wedding will suck all the life (and money) out of you. Everything has to be perfect and you have to invite guests that you will never talk to again in your life. I for one will never buy a diamond engagement ring. I’d rather spend the $14,000 on a 4 week 5 country honeymoon, and I won’t have to worry about some kid in Sierra-Leone getting his limb chopped off for a rock that in reality is worthless. I also can’t stand the way that women shake hands when they are newly engaged. Also, please, please, please save your money and do not make a “wedding music CD” for your guests. Nobody wants to listen to the music you guys do the dirty to. [end rant]
My best friend when I was little was half-Indian, half-Filipina. (both parents doctors) I tracked her down recently after several years, and found out she was in a long-term live-in relationship with a half-Mexican, half-white guy. I asked if she had ever felt that she needed to date other Asians, and what it was like with her boyfriend. She just laughed and said “I think he understands my identity issues.” She said the biggest difference between them was class (he was from a working-class, single-parent home), and that they fought the most about their attitudes towards money.
That said, I have a Korean-American friend who will ONLY date other 2nd-gen kids of immigrants because she feels NO ONE else could POSSIBLY understand her. (of course, her last bf dumped her 2 mos before the wedding because his family didn’t like her for whatever reason) I also have a white friend who dumped her Filipino-American boyfriend when he said, after over a year, that he loved her but one day he’d have to marry a Filipina. Same girl is now dating a Bengali from the midwest, who is so ecstatic to have ANY girlfriend (he’s a geek, but we love geeks) that her skin color would never be an issue. I think the conclusion of all this is EVERYONE is freaking NEUROTIC about SOMETHING, and this is why dating is difficult, period. 😉
Jai,
i like what its like for people dating non-desis. often those are the details we don’t get, in public fora at least. those who have dated non-desis have their own experiences. its worth discussing these in detail. at this point i think the “list” of why or not someone dates a non-desi is fairly well-known, and full of, frankly, calcified views
your list explains less and less as we go on, in my opinion. with due respect
much more interesting, and more fraught with drama at this point is when desi’s stop dating desis and start dating non-desis
lets discuss those issues. do people need to hear for the hundreth time that desi men don’t like to cook and clean and love their mommy too much? i doubt that explains much anymore
wow! what a response!
whatever did I do in the office before the advent of the Internet?
It’s all about the sex guys! When will you understand. Whoever you choose make sure you are “fucking” compatible. Everything else is so much mental masturbation.
masala machli- in a way that makes sense, a lot of mixed-race people like to be with other mixed-race people. It doesn’t necessarily what the mix is, but it seems there is at least some common ground for understanding the concept of being “Both, yet neither”…
When being married is hard enough, I suppose there’s something to be said for at least being like minded or having shared similar experiences.
That and #205… 🙂
marriage does not invovle considerations of sex
No matter how lonely it gets, I’m not going to one of those marriage-service sites. It’s just too…artificial. I feel like I’m trying to put together a boy-band or something.
I’ve heard that’s true… after the knot is tied 😉
Raju,
Why don’t you explain your own experiences in this area, and we can all take it from there ?
Manish’s humorous response aside, I can’t tell whether you’re being sarcastic here or are actually completely serious. Please expand on your statement.
Many thanks.
…the chick who’s had more partners after marriage than before, the guy who uses matrimonial sites to troll for f-buddies,…
hey, I know the former, and was living with the latter!
seriously, is anyone else noticing a rise in female infidelity among desis?
i know a girl who married because she was under family pressure to do so, and in the five years or less that she’s been married, turns out she’s had something like 30+ partners
then i find out from an acquaintance from my ex-‘s pool of friends, that he and his wife (both ‘vesterised’ south indians) broke up because she was having affairs all over the place
Fascinating. I didn’t know desis reproduced via asexual budding! I’ve been doing it wrong for years!
during pre-marital affairs desi people have sex and then wait until marriage to give birth
Jai,
Do you really want to hear? really? About my dating experiences? Gosh I’m honored. Maybe I can make a list of all my experiences! and sound all-knowing and say it exactly right so everyone who’s anyone agrees with me!
Raju,
You obviously have a particular stance on the downside of Indians dating non-Indians in the West, so it would probably be of benefit to everyone if you summarised what negative experiences you’re basing your thoughts on — just so the rest of us know where you’re coming from.
You said yourself in post #203 “let’s discuss these issues”, so the ball is in your court.
By the way — cut out the sarcasm and veiled insults. I’ve been extremely polite to you and this is supposed to be an amicable discussion. Apart from the fact that most of us are complete strangers here, nobody has the right to speak to other people like that just because they may be from the same ethnic background. There are ways of making one’s point clear without resorting to that kind of behaviour. Many thanks in advance.
chill man. i don’t want a fight
i’m not insulting you, i’m just saying my piece. i’m sorry if you feel insulted
Raju,
The evidence to date indicates otherwise. There’s a consistently disparaging and dismissive — dare I say patronising — tone throughout your messages addressed to myself. I don’t know what this is motivated by — either you’re making assumptions about my personality despite not actually personally knowing me, or there is something else triggering such behaviour on your part — but it may be worthwhile remembering that everyone on this thread (me, you, and all the other participants) is basing their views on their own personal life-experiences, and that therefore it is entirely possible that we are actually both correct within the context of our own experience and social environment. It wouldn’t be appropriate for either me or you to say “everything in your post is completely wrong and bears no relation to reality anywhere”, because different people have different experiences, and both stances are actually correct within different quarters of the global South Asian population. As I keep saying, it depends on the personality and environment of the specific individual.
Once again, if you have personally had negative experiences with dating non-South Asians, please feel free to discuss your thoughts here.
Of course you are…wink
Apology accepted, anyway
Jai,
you’re taking it much to far
Interesting.
I would like to attest that from the side of the non-desi dating the desi, things are not always easy either.
Eventually, the cultural differences do catch up with both of you.
Of course, as was pointed out above, there are desis, or chinese, or any number of “minorities” who have nothing or almost nothing in common with their “originial” or rather, their parents or grand-parents’ culture (besides knowing a small handful of slang words or liking the taste of what they would call “curry” or something), and in such situations there are no cultural differences to be addressed. But in situations where there is a strong cultural as well as traditional background, some sort of issues are un-avoidable.
I wouldn’t neccessarily say that ABCD’s are “losers” if they do not date and marry someone from their dating scene. It may be that they grew up in a household where dating was not permitted and well, getting out there and meeting people – with all the rejection that can entail, scares them. Also, if someone was born in India, where dating is not the norm, the concept may be totally foreign to them. I remember one Indian neighbor of mine, a young woman, was shocked to hear that in USA women “have to find their own husbands”. She felt pity for us and also indicated that such a thing would be a “heavy burden to bear”. Knowing her background, I can understand where she was coming from.
Another factor is that for centuries in India (and probably many other places), the responsibilities children (especially sons) have toward their parents has been emphasized in religious scriptures, doctrines as well as popular folklore. A son is supposed to take care of his parents in old age, to sort of repay them for the years they have sacrificed in raising him. That is why in India you find men marrying and bringing the wife home to live with the in-laws. Even now, it is looked upon as somehow “irresponsible” or “un-grateful” for a son to live in another house. (This is a generalization, exceptions are alwasy there). And, being that this is often the only form of social security for elderly Indians, the system does work to a large extent. You will also find that while the younger generation of a family may be “modern” – driving their own cars (as opposed to the often seen “hired driver” or “house-help”), going here and there dealing with the various modern entities that have to be delt with in today’s world – such as hagling with cell phone companies or what-have-you over bills, etc. – the older generation in the very same family may have grown up in a village, not been very educated, and do not know now how to do any of these things, and so they need help. Even though this is the case of a large number of people in India, still you will see similar ideas being carried in the hearts and minds of many older Indian couples here in the US. I think this is one reason why many desi parents, say in their 60’s or so, still would like to see their kids have a marriage arranged by them. It’s part of the Indian social security system, even if they no longer need it. It’s the idea of it. If their son or daughter marries a mate chosen by them, who fits their concepts of what a son-in-law or daughter-in-law should be, then somehow that registers in their minds as a type of social security for the future.
There are a large number of expectations that the bahu (daughter-in-law) in India is supposed to fulfill. Whether she has her own career or not is seen as secondary to the role she is supposed to play in the home of her husband’s parents. That role is often, how to put it, “mysticised” or “mythicised” by, again, scriptures, doctrines and folklore. This is what I’m faced with personally in my life right now as I try to come to terms with what marrying my Indian boyfriend will mean. He is not an ABCD. He is born and bred in small town India where all of the above generalizations hold true today just as much as they did say, 50 years ago. Up close and personal – one on one – we do great. But they aren’t the only ones who will be involved if we do decide to go ahead and marry. Thus far he has not indicated to me any plan to move out of his parents large house and get “his own pad”. Therefore I’m trying to get him to USA as soon as possible. My parents won’t expect anything out of him accept that he treat me right. His parents on the other, expect alot from their future daughter in law… basically to take over the household as the “new matriarch”, for a lack of better words. His mother would never be able to understand that I have zero interest in that, since it was perhaps her sole ambition her entire life.
My friends are telling me to forget the whole thing and just hook up with an ABCD, if I must have an Indian. It’s not that I must have an Indian, it’s just that fate threw us together, and well, I love him as a person. At the same time, I can’t just ignore the family situation as if it does not exist. Now from his side there are probably things he’s worrying about too that he would not have to even give a second thought to if his girlfriend were a local girl from the same caste who was brought up in a similar type of joint family. So for both of us the considerations are real. But they are stemming only from his family’s side, not mine.
Well, I’ll finish my 2cents worth here.
By the way, does anyone have any experience with K2 visas?
There’s alot of grammatical mistakes and typos in what I posted above. Please forgive me. But I think you all can figure out what I was trying to say.
This is one of the “smartest” observation I have read at SM in last one month. Congratulations!!
For K2 visa, please talk to an attorney.
Just a general question formed from my annecdotal experiences. Have people here run into more resistance in intermarriage among desis of different relgions than per say intermarriage with a white american. I say this because people in my family have married caucasians without too much acrimony, however recently a cousin of mine got engaged to an indian chrisitan (i am hindu) and there here high levels of resistance on both sides. I was curious to know if this is a general trend or something peculiar to my own family circle?
mangal: This complex issue was unflinchingly examined in the wonderfully chimeric “Bride & Prejudice” 😉 Seriously, substitute caucasian playboy with lower-caste/different religion romantic, and we’ve got a movie that I would want to see
I have a question. Does anybody know why people of other cultures, non-western, date Americans, with no intention of making the relationship last forever? I have seen it often. Date, have sex, act like you love the person then pow. Oh, by the way my family is traditional and will not permit me to marry you. I am going to India, Pakistan, Lebanon, or wherever to get my wife. It has been great but good-bye. I do not care how people get together. All marriages take work regardless or how they were put together but why date someone one knows he or she can never marry? This just seems wrong to me.
First, the ONLY reason why an american born INDIAN GUY would go to INDIA to look for a girl is because he’s desperate and most likely has no redeeming qualities. Think about it. If you’ve been in this country (USA) for almost 30 years, and haven’t met ANYONE that you could be romantically involved with, then something is wrong with you. Going to INDIA is the easy route. You don’t have to ‘get to know’ them, go on dates, or see if you’re really compatible. As long as you look good on paper (hey look, i have an engineering job, and an apartment, and a car! and i can get you a visa!)….it’s a done deal. And the INDIAN girls don’t have a lot of expectations because they’re just RELIEVED to be marrying someone who can get them to the states.
The reason why INDIAN girls date and marry WHITE guys is because after being born in the beautiful country (god bless america!) and experiencing life here, how the hell could they marry someone INDIAN? Indian guys (even the 2nd gen. ones like ourselves) are REPRESSIVE, have no sense of humor, smell, and are not creative…most of them are engineers, doctors, scientists, etc….They come from a family that’s soooo INDIAN….
I play sports- soccer, lacrosse, tennis, golf, snowboarding. I love traveling…backpacking style (hostels and everything), VOLUNTEERING (they don’t do that in INDIA and most 2nd gen. indian guys are not fans of this or anything cool)….. going to concerts, museums, learning, growing, skiing, snowboarding, learning new languages, etc etc.
My fiance is WHITE (australian actually) and he’s the best thing in my life….seriously. YES, we’re in love but we’re not getting divorced. We’re in this forever. It really pisses me off when people say ‘arranged marriages are better than love marriages because of a lower divorce rate.”
First of all, not true. Second, if the divorce rate is the only measure of whether a marriage is successful, that’s a fairly low bar to clear….(someone posted that earlier).
Lastly, our babies are going to be SO CUTE….and we’re going to teach them GERMAN & FRENCH (he’s fluent in both) and ITALIAN (i’m fluent in that)…. seriously, it should NOT BE about marrying an INDIAN just because your parents want you to and you share a similar culture. As far as I’m concerned, if you’re in AMERICA, you’re AMERICAN and if you haven’t assimilated yet that sucks for you. BUT my culture is AMERICAN, not INDIAN (although I like the food and saris)- so i feel more comfortable with an AMERICAN MAN.
INDIAN MEN are soooo uncultured and UGLY and CLOSED MINDED…I dated an INDIAN guy once when I was in college- and it was the worst experience ever. After than I only dated white guys and it was awesome, until I met my fiance and now I’m in heaven.
CHEERS TO THE GOOD LIFE.
Sam, although I get what you’re saying, all Indian men are not ugly.
I find quite a few of them to be physcially attractive and some are even gorgeous. Just now a tall, dark and handsome man born in Kerala walked into our business. He is married to a Nigerian woman, as he was raised in Nigeria. Their kids, especially the baby daughter are the cutest things you can imagine with soft, tight and curly hair and big black eyes. The Indian African mix is a gorgeous one, often more attractive than the Indian White mix.
What turns me off about most Indian men though is their attitudes towards womens roles. That is why for the past few years I stopped dating Indian men and like you, started to find them un-attractive. But the man who walked into the office today reminded me how cute they can be. Too bad he’s married.